On the point of Zoro vs zombie Ryuma.
Right, this is true when it comes to a fight where both are high attack power fighters. But this was before haki was a thing, and that is a big difference. Haki allows you to tank attacks that you otherwise can't. For example, Zoro tanked King's mountain size explosion with no damage, but also claimed that if he didn't defend with haki he would've been one shot.
Coming to Zoro vs Kaku.
Kaku could tank Zoro's attacks due to "tekkai"
And onto the counter example.
Luffy and Lucci are both similar fighters, in that they are physical fighters who rely on martial arts. Luffy vs Lucci was one of the most even fights in the series, with countless attacks being exchanged.
I think so long as the two fighters are relatively the same in attack & defense power this will stand (doesn't require them to have high attack power). And even though that was before haki, I think explosions are generally poor way to judge anything in OP. We've had people as weak as Pell survive massive explosions but then have Pedro die. In my opinion Oda is far too inconsistent with bombs/environmental things to use it credibly for power scaling.
Lucci and Ciphor Pol in general fight with kill moves and go for weak points on the body like throats. Shigan and its variations are assassination techniques so in my opinion had Zoro failed to dodge he'd have likely lost the fight. Do agree that had he used haki to defend that could have been different, but same could be said for Lucci against Zoro's final attack. My point on this is if Zoro took the attack as a result of being unable to dodge/defend.
The Zoro vs Kaku and Lucci vs Luffy are both examples of fights that got full depiction. Oda makes fighters in those trade many blows since we need to see the fight but generally doesn't do it for fights that aren't depicted directly aka off screen fights.
On bold part.
Yes for Zoro, no for Lucci.
Kaku was more attack power heavy than Lucci, even though Lucci was in general stronger (look at Kaku's attack cutting that entire giant tower in half). Zoro tanked several attacks from Kaku.
Luffy also took several attacks from Lucci as well, and Zoro is roughly comparable to Luffy when it comes to durability/endurance, as we saw later in TB.
And currently, the gap is far higher. Let's say Lucci has comparable armament haki to Zoro, but Zoro had advanced conqueror's which is a further boost to durability too.
Zoro is more than capable of tanking several hits from Lucci.
The only character who had the risk of getting one shot here was Lucci, not Zoro.
CP0 vs Apoo/Drake was not a one shot fight.
It was a fight that went on for some time off-screen, after which we only saw the victors. Same with CP0 vs Izo, another off screen fight where we only saw the end. They could've exchanged blows off screen, we don't know.
This I disagree with. I think Lucci has higher attack power than Kaku when it comes to damaging an individual. Kaku may have bigger attacks that can destroy large objects but I think Lucci has more damaging attacks against individuals.
I also don't think Luffy & Zoro have comparable durability/endurance anymore (do agree this was the case in Thriller Bark), especially after Wano. But this is a an aside.
As for CPO v Apoo, that is exactly my point. Whenever a fight is off screen, we just see the end and never really what happened. We have to assume back & forth OR we just accept what we saw is all there is to it. By this same standard we could say Zoro & Lucci exchanged other named attacks off screen, Zoro used bandana but took it off later, etc. We can make up whatever we want so long as the conclusion is the same. That's why I prefer for these to just stick to what we actually see in panels and nothing else.
Isn't this an issue with your perception though?
Oda has shown SEVERAL fights in the series where equal fighters continue to fight for a long duration, exchanging many blows. Point being, what tends to happen in the series is opposite of how you think fights between even fighters should go.
Zoro vs zombie Ryuma was an exception to the norm of fights between comparable fighters taking forever in OP.
The usual scenario where two comparable fighters end the fight quickly in OP, is if they there is some intervention/off-guard shenanigans. Eg: Akainu/WB, Kaido/Oden.
It's not an issue of perception, its an issue of inconsistent portrayal by Oda. When a fight is on screen Oda depicts lots of back & forth, even in cases where it should be a stomp. When a fight is off screen, time loses meaning, and we just see the conclusion (or in worst case learn about it without ever seeing it e.g. RA fight against Admirals, Jack v Fuji/Sengoku, etc).
I think this Zoro v Lucci fight is in the latter group. Since it was off screen we don't really see a ton of back & forth and we only see a single named attack from each of them. It's clear Zoro is stronger since he won, but we lack a lot of information making it harder to make judgment on difficulty of the fight.
Here is the thing.
I think Lucci and Kaku are both capable of stalling a non serious Zoro who doesn't use advanced conqueror's haki.
But if Zoro gets focused (i.e improve CQC) and/or use advanced conqueror's, they are toast.
For me, using advanced conqueror's doesn't automatically up the diff of the fight to high diff.
Because it is becoming an ability that Zoro is able to spam at this point, assuming the final attack was advanced conqueror's, Zoro can now use that ability without even going all out (i.e KoH).
Look at Zoro vs Hyozo, Zoro vs Monet, Zoro vs Pica, or even Zoro vs Killer
All were capable of clashing with non serious Zoro, but once Zoro got serious, it was over. This has been Zoro fight pattern then entire post TS, with exception of rooftop and King (both of which were heavy challenges that forced Zoro to grow stronger).
The improved CQC or use of aCoC making a big difference are unfortunately assumptions that we can't prove one way or the other. All we know is that they can keep Zoro busy but can't win at the moment. I do personally agree that he should easily beat them if Zoro goes all out but need to see that depicted. It's the same way I think Luffy should have been able to take out Kizaru using aCoC + G4, or aCoC+G5 without having to run out of energy. Oda forces specific portrayals for plot in these cases but I have to make conclusions based on what I see vs infer.
Yeah, it was a fight that Zoro should've won comfortably.
It also circles back to my point of characters clashing with Zoro when he isn't serious. Zoro hits considerably above his "tier", and he isn't MC so he doesn't get serious challenges all the time. So this is Oda's way of having Zoro busy for some plots, stall piece.
Agree it generally is stalling for plot. But at the same time it is also what happened canonically in the manga. I can't ignore these types of events happening when making my judgement on level of difficulty.
Lucci with haki in his hands/claws can clash with Zoro who isn't using advanced conqueror's.
Lucci is very strong armament haki, mastered to the levels of barrier and internal destruction. He had an equal clash with G5 Luffy using armament haki
Lucci's armament haki is comparable to armament haki of Luffy or Zoro.
What Zoro has, that Lucci doesn't, is advanced conqueror's haki.
If you assume that Zoro's final attack was advanced conqueror's, the fight starts making more sense.
I think in this case the other scenario you through out later, that Lucci just was caught off guard, and couldn't apply haki to his body to defend makes more sense.
Now if I assume that Zoro hadn't used aCoC during the off panel portions then this would make sense. However, like I said before it's difficult to answer the aCoC question here since we clearly see the smoke rings around his swords but can't use that as conclusive evidence one way or the other. All we know is when we see the smoke he is using some serious haki (more than basic stuff).
Coming back to my query
If we presume that Lucci's and Zoro's advanced armament haki is roughly comparable.
How can Lucci clash with Zoro if Zoro is also overusing advanced conqueror's on top of it? I think that should at least logically rule out Zoro using KoH. Lucci surviving an overuse of advanced armament (smoke) can be explained by him overusing his own advanced armament haki.
Removing logic all together, I think the real answer is that Oda wanted this fight to be in background, otherwise we get to nonsense scaling like this.
I don't make that presumption so can't make the same conclusions. It's also further complicated by the fact that haki on its own can't give an answer. We know for a fact the physical strength of the person factors too since a non haki move can break through haki defenses if powerful enough. With that in mind I don't make any assumptions on who has the stronger CoA.
Do agree that Oda had this fight stall which creates inconsistencies in portrayal. However, OP is generally inconsistent and is what we have to deal with when making the call on high/mid/low diff. There is no objectively correct answer in most fights.
Now to addressing some key points:
Because Lucci's armament haki is top tier. It is roughly comparable to Zoro's, hence he can clash with Zoro's armament haki. Plus, they were clashes and not named attacks which are stronger.
To make it simple, can rooftop Zoro clash with current Zoro if advanced conqueror's is restricted? Yes, even though current Zoro is better in physical stats and armament through powercreep, main improvement was advanced conqueror's, and without it rooftop Zoro can give a tough challenge to current Zoro.
Similar story here.
I have Lucci comparable to rooftop Zoro, broadly speaking.
Again I don't necessarily agree on the premise that they comparable haki. One of them could have better haki but other factors such as physical strength or the fact one of them is using swords compensate for that difference. I think current Lucci >= rooftop Zoro (pre power creep & aCoC).
Armament haki is not fixed. You can use it anywhere you want on the body.
For example: Zoro used fully body armament haki to tank without injuries, a massive explosion from King, that otherwise would have killed him.
Two options here:
- Lucci was too slow to react to Zoro, which means serious Zoro would have blitzed Lucci anyway
- Lucci reacted and put haki on his body, but Zoro's attack was too powerful to tank anyway.
No matter how you look, Zoro comes out looking good here.
Either he was so fast when serious that he blitzed Lucci (which would be in line with him casually dodging Lucci's named barrage of attacks).
Or he hits so hard that Lucci couldn't defend with haki even (which makes sense if he's using advanced conqueror's) .
Yes agree that its not fixed and that those two outcomes are possible (I lean towards the first where Lucci failed to defend). Zoro does come away looking better here since he dodged the Madara attack and successfully landed a counter. That makes current Zoro > current Lucci. I don't think either of us disagree on this point.
The contention is the level of difficulty that Zoro won the fight with. I think it was mid/high diff and you think it is low/mid diff. We overlap in the middle but lean in different directions based on our interpretations of what's portrayed.
Yes, I do disagree.
A weaker version of Zoro took as powerful or more powerful attacks in Wano.
The explosion from King was almost as big as Onigashima castle itself. And Zoro with just (advanced) armament haki, no sold the attack.
Zoro, pre haki, was tanking attacks from Kaku. And it's objectively true that EL Kaku was closer in power to EL Zoro, than current Lucci is to current Zoro (tell me if you disagree).
If Zoro couldn't dodge Lucci's attacks, he could've used advanced armament haki and advanced conqueror's haki to soften the blow and tanked it.
He probably would have tanked it with only scratches if he focused on defending with haki.
Heck, even if we restrict advanced conqueror's, Zoro would've still tanked (given he tanked King's explosion), but maybe with injuries.
I do think Zoro tanking that explosion was big deal. If I were to clarify on the landing attack, I mean truly landing it without the opponent guarding. I think Zoro managed to land his attack on Lucci without Lucci defending hence why he lost. When I say had Madara landed I mean the reverse happening where Zoro failed to dodge/guard and just ate the attack.
I think had Lucci guarded with the same haki he'd been using on his hand/claws he would have tanked Zoro's named attack. I also do think Zoro could have tanked Madara had he guarded with haki on his body too. The important point for me here is that both of them had similar attack/defense powers and what mattered here was overcoming the opponents guard to land a solid hit, which Zoro succeeded to do and Lucci failed to do.
Now hypothetically, had Zoro put on bandana and went KoH mode fully, do I think he could overcome Lucci through force e.g. even with haki guard Lucci loses? My opinion here is yes. The only reason I am not drawing this conclusion is we don't know this explicitly and the fact that Oda depicted Zoro using some form of advanced haki via the smoke makes this questionable. If I get a concrete yes/no on the aCoC I can have more conviction one way or the other.
I addressed this earlier, but will point out again that Zoro clashing till he gets serious is kinda the norm post TS - Hyozo, Monet, Pica, Killer. And now, Lucci.
As for Kaku, my take is that like with Lucci, Kaku can stall a non serious Zoro who doesn't use advanced conqueror's or fully focus in CQC.
Zoro low diff Kaku.
Zoro low-mid diff Lucci.
I have Lucci >= Katakuri, Kaku >= Queen.
Zoro definitely doesn't get many actual fights post skip. The only real ones were in Wano as far as I'm concerned.
I have Lucci in same tier as Katakuri & Yamato. I think honestly both are above YC1. Not sure about Kaku, he seems to be YC1/YC2. Unlike everyone else in the group that fought Seraphim, he was far more injured. Zoro, Luffy, & Lucci all left that fight able to fight others in decent shape. Kaku though trapped in the gun is injured enough for Lucci to worry about him.
Regarding old WB vs Akainu.
WB was off his meds and had POOR haki, and was incapable of using advanced conqueror's haki.
And Akainu is at this point established as amongst the highest AP dudes in the verse. Akainu is a swordsman type fighter, in that he hits above his tier; take attacks from him without defenses and you are toast.
Akainu got hit off guard by WB, and Akainu got up in like 10 mins anyway. Akainu got two hits point blant, and one of them was off guard. And he STILL got up after a while.
If this was a clean fight between Akainu and old WB (in meds; i.e one that has top tier haki).
Then this would've been an extended fight. Whitebeard would use his great haki to tank attacks from Akainu. Akainu likewise would use his haki and mobility to tank/dodge attacks from Whitebeard.
Of course it won't be like Kaido or Luffy, both of whom are built with high durability (dragon scales for general dura, rubber on blunt force).
But this fight won't be decided in a couple of hits either.
One can think of a Zoro vs Kaku fight - two human characters who hit above their tier, fighting against each other. Won't last like Kaido vs Luffy, but one can assume that enough hits will be exchanged before a victor emerges.
Yes Old WB without Meds was not at his best. My point here is when it came down to it the fights ended quickly and conclusively. If it were a 1v1 with no one else, that hit Akainu took, even if off guard, would end it since he can't afford to take a 10 minute break (think Luffy vs Doffy in Dressrosa). Similarly the counter attack he did against WB was fatal. WB was going to die from those injuries. I think this would have been a short fight lasting minutes with both of them down but Akainu leaving with less injuries or at the very least his life (old WB without meds was not strong enough to win in my opinion).
I think those two fights Luffy v Kaido, Zoro v Kaku (EL) both benefit from getting a depiction. Had they been off screen we'd have a hard time judging high/mid/low diff. Personally I think the long fights that last days are likely plot stall style fights of just clashing non stop but no one landing solid hits. Hell Kaido & BM fought for a whole night but no injuries etc. You can argue its because they were not serious but at same time people used this to say BM & Kaido were comparable in power level (I'm not one of those people as I think Kaido > BM).
As long as you're consistent, I am fine dude. The issue I had with people here was always the double standards.
I will still maintain that Luffy low diff'd Lucci, because I give equal weight to injury as well.
But Luffy used a good amount of effort on Lucci, and would've needed even more to actually defeat Lucci instead of just briefly putting him down and scramming.
We can reasonably assume that Luffy used advanced armament as well. Because we know Lucci is an advanced armament user, and you cannot defend against that with just basic armament (point of advanced armament to begin with is to bypass thick skin which is basically what armament hardening gives).
If your criteria for determining difficulty of a fight is primarily effort, this would at least qualify for a mid diff.
Comparing effort by Luffy and Zoro:
- Luffy used G5, but no gigantification and presumably not advanced conqueror's. High effort, but nowhere near maximum effort. Resulted in a stomp: some clashes, dodged all attacks and then briefly KO'd Lucci. With higher end attacks, he would've reduced Lucci closer to 0% hp than like 80% hp
- Zoro used advanced armament. "Smoke" at some point, but majority of the fight in nitoryuu. He was medium effort on average till finale. He then got serious, dodged barrage of named attacks casually (implication being serious Zoro outclasses Lucci in CQC), and presumably used advanced conqueror's to almost one shot Lucci (say from 75% hp to less than 20%).
Still an attack with no bandana (bandana is canonically associated with seriousness), no KoH, a mid-end named move. So, went from medium effort (fighting even) to high effort in the finale (but nowhere near max effort) and stomp.
I think you're being too reliant on haki being the end all. Non haki users can still overcome and defeat haki users so even when it is a fight between two haki users, the one with weaker haki can win by compensating through other factors like physical strength, technique, or weapons.
On the Luffy vs Lucci, I do think Luffy dominated and its a lower end mid diff. What I ask myself now is could Luffy mid diff Lucci without using G5? If he could then G5 win would be a low diff but if not it could definitely be seen as mid diff. Since we skipped straight to awakened forms we never got to see how Lucci would fair against G4. The only data we have is in the fight against the Seraphim Lucci went awakened form whereas Luffy stuck to G4, and did comparably well. This may indicate Luffy won low diff.
For Zoro v Lucci, I think we've said all we have to say. We overlap in some ways but there are key points that we don't share assumptions. Either way we at least both agree Zoro > Lucci.
Logia awakening has been saved for the last, and hence has the most buildup/hype.
I hope Oda delivers on it.
Don't want it to just be "elemental avatar".
But I can buy the "elemental avatar" as a mode the logia user needs to be in, for the DF awakening to happen. Like, Enel should be in that "Amaru" form, Greenbull should be in Broccoli form etc.
And yeah, I think Greenbull is awakened. He restored the vegetation for like half of Wano and it looks like it's staying. Very awakening-esque.
Enel is slept on not just because of rubber hard counter, but also because pre haki, pre gears Luffy was hurting him and landing hits on him (while it is unimaginable that pre TS base Luffy lands a single hit on Vergo for example).
Of course the context is Oda not planning that far ahead, similar to Crocodile.
So if he comes back, he will still be a monster who is at bare minimum high commander level.
These awakenings will be monstrous. I think they will take some transformed form but the greatest power will be the ability to change the environment similar to Paramecia. Greenbull made plants grow where he walked so maybe in full awakened form Admirals can do what Doffy/Kata did with their elements. Likely makes the scale of attacks/powers insanely high.
Enel should come back. I think would be a waste to never see Goro Goro again. One of the best fruits in the series. I hope he does get the Crocodile treatment. Would be hilarious if he somehow ends up joining the Cross Guild and we see him that way.
