Discussion About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

[Demonspeed]

This is down to interpretation imo until Togashi really explains it... But personally I do think that Hisoka received some sort of boost to his Nen after his death. He immediately showed new techniques which would of benefitted him during the fight with Chrollo, and so leads me to believe he was only capable of these things after he revived himself. Such as the recreation of the hand and foot he lost. Using his Nen to ''wrap" Machi up like that was a far higher level of emission we have seen from Hisoka as of yet, normally when he uses an ability like that he has to maintain some sort of connection to the Aura like the thread on Gon's face, this opens up ALOT of new possibilities. The way he used the new foot as a spring was also new, and the way he took out Shalnark in one swift blow like that it almost seemed like he received an overall boost in strength.

Hisoka didn't use everything. Many readers expected him to use Texture Surprise but he didn't. What he showed after his resurrection are applications of his two abilities. if he was unable to do it before, he would have no way to know that he can do that now. We also know that these kind of things are not easy to do under stress.

He didn't use Emission. He covered Machi with his Bungee Gum when he hugged her. The "recreation" was an application of his two abilities which belong to Transmutation and Conjuration and it's not a real one.

Shape transformation→ Rubber property→ Coating with the Conjuration ability of Texture Surprise and it's done.

It's not a new concept by any means, and I've always thought it's related to someone's will and desire to do or achieve something before they die. Both examples we had actually seen of this happening (Pitou and Hisoka) they had a major goal or desire they had to fulfill, Pitou in killing Gon to protect Meruem, and Hisoka's desire to defeat Chrollo and in a broader sense just strong self preservation, also a big difference in Hisoka's case is he actually specifically attempted to do it, which might be a reason for the strength increase.

Camilla seems to of based her whole Hatsu around this idea, made easier by the fact that she is a specialist. It's more then possible that the Cat becomes stronger each time it's used. I also wonder whether the Cat is restricted to attacking the person who killed Camilla, and what happens if the Cat's first attack fails, does it continue to stay around and attack the person who killed her until it can absorb them? Or can it use anyone nearby to ressurect her?

I have a theory that Chrollo also understands this concept alot more then he gave away during the fight with Hisoka, he didn't really explain how he came to know the elder from Meteor that he took Sun and Moon from.. Chrollo's ability requires him to either force the person to fulfill the requirements or he has to actually coerce the person into giving him the info he needs, meaning he would have to actually know this person fairly well, be close to them or at the very least have a conversation with them.
He also didn't tell us how this person died or why they died, or what his connection to them was. We know that for the most part, the abilities in the Bandits Secret are stolen either by tricking people or forcing them to give away, and that they dissapear from the book after the person's death, and we can assume that for all of these abilities Chrollo holds no attachment to the people that owned the abilities originally, like he would for someone like Shalnark for example, or Kortopi.. See where I'm going with this?
I think that if somebody WILLINGLY gives Chrollo their ability and then dies, he retains the ability after they die AND the ability becomes stronger. This is why Sun and Moon didn't dissapear from the book, and also why Togashi included the lines between Chrollo and Shalnark in which he offers to give him Black Voice back but Shalnark DECLINED. It was that particular scene that gave me this whole idea, why would Togashi include that if Shalnark were to die and the ability dissapear anyway? It would be a completely pointless line. This means that ANY member of the Phantom Troupe could give Chrollo their hatsu to use FOREVER before they die.

Pitou's ability got stronger, but Pitou was dead. Hisoka's ability go stronger while he was dead and that's how it revived him. When he revived that was no longer the case since he is alive. These kind of things only work for the dead, not the living.

If it's permanent like this then Camilla can easily become the strongest Nen user ever. She gets killed→ Her cat kills the killer→ She resurrects→ Her aura increase permanently while she is alive, her cat gets stronger as well.

Chrollo is from Meteor City so it's not surprising that he knows that elder. I doubt he stole it without his accord but Chrollo created Skill Hunter with the condition that the ability disappears if the target dies, so giving it willingly shouldn't change this. The Sun & Moon case is an exception because the elder's Nen intensified after death. I am not sure Chrollo was talking about Black Voice to Shalnark there, he said he could give him his phone but no antennas, maybe he did but Sharlnark declined because he said he didn't need it for now. If his targets willingly fulfilled his conditions then Black Voice and Gallery Fake should still be in his book.

 

[NenMaster]

He didn't use Emission. He covered Machi with his Bungee Gum when he hugged her. The "recreation" was an application of his two abilities which belong to Transmutation and Conjuration and it's not a real one.

Every time he have seen Hisoka ever use Bungee gum in a similar manner, he has maintained a thread between himself and whatever he has stuck his Nen too, as to NOT have to use Emission. This is the very first instance we have seen Hisoka use bungee gum and NOT do this, he hugged Machi, wrapped her up in Bungee gum, the gum left his hands as you can see in the panel, he then walked away without Machi being able to pursue, so we can assume she was stuck for a little while. This is high level Transmutation AND Emission to maintain his Nen with no connection to his Aura. If this is possible, what's stopping him from literally throwing balls of Bungee Gum around? Seems like if he could do this before it would make NO sense for him to not use this.

The recreation of his hand and foot was certainly his normal abilities, but to a far higher level. We have only ever seen Hisoka create an actual shape out of his Nen once, which was in heavens arena when he showed Gon and Killua his Nen by creating that number above his finger (forget which number it was, or was it a shape? I forget xD). This is not nearly as complex as recreating a whole limb AND maintaining it at all times. Also this particular ability, if he could use it before why wouldn't of he of used it when Chrollo first blew off his hand? Or in the fight with Castro? He had enough time to do it, we can see the MOMENT he pops up after death his Foot is already formed!

Pitou's ability got stronger, but Pitou was dead. Hisoka's ability go stronger while he was dead and that's how it revived him. When he revived that was no longer the case since he is alive. These kind of things only work for the dead, not the living.

This is the part that must be expanded upon by Togashi, there are many clues to say this isn't the case though. We know that Nen can stay around for possibly forever after someone's death.
Hisoka is a very unique case because he used his Nen to cheat death, which might well be the very reason he got his power up. Most people once they die they are obviously no longer around to make use of the benefits! So think of it like this,
Person dies > Nen becomes Stronger, can possibly stay around for a very long time because of this.
But in Hisoka's case, He dies > Nen Becomes Stronger > Nen uses the new strength to revive Hisoka on command, His now stronger Nen has a 'host' unlike it would if the person was still dead.

Camilla is either a genius and knew this already or she stumbled across this power up after creating her hatsu. But I think it is definitely a possibility that her hatsu does indeed get Stronger each time she uses it. How much so we don't know, but it could be the case.

Chrollo is from Meteor City so it's not surprising that he knows that elder. I doubt he stole it without his accord but Chrollo created Skill Hunter with the condition that the ability disappears if the target dies, so giving it willingly shouldn't change this. The Sun & Moon case is an exception because the elder's Nen intensified after death. I am not sure Chrollo was talking about Black Voice to Shalnark there, he said he could give him his phone but no antennas, maybe he did but Sharlnark declined because he said he didn't need it for now. If his targets willingly fulfilled his conditions then Black Voice and Gallery Fake should still be in his book.

It was my point that Chrollo knew the Meteor elder, and likely had a deep connection with him like he does the troop. It was also my point that he retained Black Voice and Gallery Fake. If he only still has Sun and Moon because the Elder's Nen became stronger after death, then this is possible for EVERY ability in the book. I don't think this is the reason it stayed. I think it stayed because,
1. Chrollo knew this person and likely had a strong bond with them, not like he would for anyone he steals an ability from.
2. The Elder willingly gave him the Ability before he died.

When Chrollo spoke to Shalnark on the phone, he was definitely asking him if he would like him to give him back Black Voice because he was finished using it, and he had lost the antenna but could give him the phone. Shalnark said no, he doesn't need to use it right now. Shalnark then dies a few pages later. So if Shalnark died and the ability dissapeared anyway, why would Togashi include that line? It would be irrelevant, the hatsu would be gone either way. This way, he lets us know that Chrollo still had the ability when he died, fulfilling one of the conditions for him to still have the ability. Presumably the same with Kortopi.

It's also possible this is the actual reason that Sun and Moon became stronger in the first place, because the Hatsu was essentially a gift, not something he stole. So it works like this,
Normally, Chrollo steals the ability > person dies > Chrollo doesn't care, the ability dissapears from the book.
With Sun and Moon, Gallery Fake and Black Voice, Chrollo is given the ability > person dies > Chrollo mourns, the ability becomes stronger and stays in the book.

 

[Diivil]

during the doge ball game Hisoka detached his gum away from him and stuck raizor to the ball... what he did to machi was nothing new.

 

[XXGenesis]

This is down to interpretation imo until Togashi really explains it... But personally I do think that Hisoka received some sort of boost to his Nen after his death. He immediately showed new techniques which would of benefitted him during the fight with Chrollo, and so leads me to believe he was only capable of these things after he revived himself. Such as the recreation of the hand and foot he lost. Using his Nen to ''wrap" Machi up like that was a far higher level of emission we have seen from Hisoka as of yet, normally when he uses an ability like that he has to maintain some sort of connection to the Aura like the thread on Gon's face, this opens up ALOT of new possibilities. The way he used the new foot as a spring was also new, and the way he took out Shalnark in one swift blow like that it almost seemed like he received an overall boost in strength.

Exactly. I'm happy that someone see's the same signs i'm seeing. it's more than interpretation imo, he's given us proof that..Bungee Gum is more versatile than it was before, or Hisoka is better with it; It's a Hatsu power up, with the only explanation that Hisoka's Nen got stronger. Chp.356, Pg.5 Hisoka is fighting w/o his hand, which also removed his bungee gum attached to the ceiling; He specifically states "I can't manipulate nen percisely with my left hand anymore..still have my legs".....Same chapter Pg.16 Tries to attach bungee gum with right foot, which happened to be lost in explosion..he fails, tries to use his left foot but is intercepted by Chrollo...The man came back with a Hatsu power up.....Kill

It's not a new concept by any means, and I've always thought it's related to someone's will and desire to do or achieve something before they die. Both examples we had actually seen of this happening (Pitou and Hisoka) they had a major goal or desire they had to fulfill, Pitou in killing Gon to protect Meruem, and Hisoka's desire to defeat Chrollo and in a broader sense just strong self preservation, also a big difference in Hisoka's case is he actually specifically attempted to do it, which might be a reason for the strength increase.

Which so many didn't like it. Hisoka has some strong ass will & desire..You'll think most humans would desire the will to live or fight again....Just made Will & Desire seem cheap.

Camilla seems to of based her whole Hatsu around this idea, made easier by the fact that she is a specialist. It's more then possible that the Cat becomes stronger each time it's used. I also wonder whether the Cat is restricted to attacking the person who killed Camilla, and what happens if the Cat's first attack fails, does it continue to stay around and attack the person who killed her until it can absorb them? Or can it use anyone nearby to ressurect her?

Very Good question. I'm thinking what happens, if she used the ability against an RG or even Meruem...?!?!?!?!?!?...I believe we'll defnitely get more on her hatsu's restrictions & limitations to it''s usage and effect.

I have a theory that Chrollo also understands this concept alot more then he gave away during the fight with Hisoka, he didn't really explain how he came to know the elder from Meteor that he took Sun and Moon from.. Chrollo's ability requires him to either force the person to fulfill the requirements or he has to actually coerce the person into giving him the info he needs, meaning he would have to actually know this person fairly well, be close to them or at the very least have a conversation with them.
He also didn't tell us how this person died or why they died, or what his connection to them was. We know that for the most part, the abilities in the Bandits Secret are stolen either by tricking people or forcing them to give away, and that they dissapear from the book after the person's death, and we can assume that for all of these abilities Chrollo holds no attachment to the people that owned the abilities originally, like he would for someone like Shalnark for example, or Kortopi.. See where I'm going with this?
I think that if somebody WILLINGLY gives Chrollo their ability and then dies, he retains the ability after they die AND the ability becomes stronger. This is why Sun and Moon didn't dissapear from the book, and also why Togashi included the lines between Chrollo and Shalnark in which he offers to give him Black Voice back but Shalnark DECLINED. It was that particular scene that gave me this whole idea, why would Togashi include that if Shalnark were to die and the ability dissapear anyway? It would be a completely pointless line. This means that ANY member of the Phantom Troupe could give Chrollo their hatsu to use FOREVER before they die.

No the ability vanishes if the person dies. The elder was a special case, to where it didn't vanish from his book, & it became stronger with the seals not vanishing & when used in conjunction withother nen abilities, can cause not so permanent abilities to vanish despite prior conditions placed on them, as seen by Chrollo.

Hisoka didn't use everything. Many readers expected him to use Texture Surprise but he didn't. What he showed after his resurrection are applications of his two abilities. if he was unable to do it before, he would have no way to know that he can do that now. We also know that these kind of things are not easy to do under stress.

He didn't use Emission. He covered Machi with his Bungee Gum when he hugged her. The "recreation" was an application of his two abilities which belong to Transmutation and Conjuration and it's not a real one.

Shape transformation→ Rubber property→ Coating with the Conjuration ability of Texture Surprise and it's done.

Hisoka's texture surprise would be primarily for diversion/trick tactics..Kastro was fodder enough he was able to preform some magic tricks with it...

I highly disagree man, & I believe the answers are there before us. Ch.356 Pg.5...Next Page he says I still have my leg and uses his normal basic shape manipulation that we've always seen for Bungee Gum..Same CH. Pg.16...We see Hisoka cannot manipulate his Hatsu in the most basic of shapes.

The ability to shape a foot out of Bungee Gum, & give it the properties, not to mention a new hand, then use your gum to patch you self up....Bungee Gum was not explained to be used like this..DemonSpeed come on man just admit he came back with an power up to his hatsu...I'm not saying his overall Nen increased...No..His hatsu ability is simply stronger than it was before....

When he walks away from Machi, it automatically becomes an application of emission...His transmutation hatsu is existing independent from his body.

Pitou's ability got stronger, but Pitou was dead. Hisoka's ability go stronger while he was dead and that's how it revived him. When he revived that was no longer the case since he is alive. These kind of things only work for the dead, not the living.

If it's permanent like this then Camilla can easily become the strongest Nen user ever. She gets killed→ Her cat kills the killer→ She resurrects→ Her aura increase permanently while she is alive, her cat gets stronger as well.

See this is why Hisoka's resurrection taste like crappy black coffee to some....Pitou died but RG have this extreme duty they must fulfill, so his hatsu the puppeteer joint brought him back to life & he was able to continue his desire to protect the king & kill Gon. I.E Nen becoming stronger in death....Not Plot Armour for a loved character to where, he died should of but wasn't by explosions...so he resuscitated himself..-_-

Camilla's ability is actually pretty powerful. But still yet she has to die, in order for her to be brought back to life...however it kills an opponent. which I'm guessing for Camilla is her upside to this ability. We are still missing some key details to it's mechanics...Because no way are you telling me Camilla could have solo'd the chimera ants lol....

Every time he have seen Hisoka ever use Bungee gum in a similar manner, he has maintained a thread between himself and whatever he has stuck his Nen too, as to NOT have to use Emission. This is the very first instance we have seen Hisoka use bungee gum and NOT do this, he hugged Machi, wrapped her up in Bungee gum, the gum left his hands as you can see in the panel, he then walked away without Machi being able to pursue, so we can assume she was stuck for a little while. This is high level Transmutation AND Emission to maintain his Nen with no connection to his Aura. If this is possible, what's stopping him from literally throwing balls of Bungee Gum around? Seems like if he could do this before it would make NO sense for him to not use this.

The recreation of his hand and foot was certainly his normal abilities, but to a far higher level. We have only ever seen Hisoka create an actual shape out of his Nen once, which was in heavens arena when he showed Gon and Killua his Nen by creating that number above his finger (forget which number it was, or was it a shape? I forget xD). This is not nearly as complex as recreating a whole limb AND maintaining it at all times. Also this particular ability, if he could use it before why wouldn't of he of used it when Chrollo first blew off his hand? Or in the fight with Castro? He had enough time to do it, we can see the MOMENT he pops up after death his Foot is already formed!

Thank you for pointing out these crucial points. Also We've never seen Hisoka use advance shape manipulation for bungee period, nor emission...That time in Heaven's Arena was just his regular aura..Similar to when Gon * killua shaped numbers with their aura....

This is the part that must be expanded upon by Togashi, there are many clues to say this isn't the case though. We know that Nen can stay around for possibly forever after someone's death.
Hisoka is a very unique case because he used his Nen to cheat death, which might well be the very reason he got his power up. Most people once they die they are obviously no longer around to make use of the benefits! So think of it like this,
Person dies > Nen becomes Stronger, can possibly stay around for a very long time because of this.
But in Hisoka's case, He dies > Nen Becomes Stronger > Nen uses the new strength to revive Hisoka on command, His now stronger Nen has a 'host' unlike it would if the person was still dead.

Camilla is either a genius and knew this already or she stumbled across this power up after creating her hatsu. But I think it is definitely a possibility that her hatsu does indeed get Stronger each time she uses it. How much so we don't know, but it could be the case.

Exactly Hisoka messed up the whole meaning of Nen becoming stronger in Death, he's like a anomaly now...
& Camilla's ability is strong asf when I think about it, she has to be sacrificing something with this ability of auto kill response & Resurrection. I wonder what though??

It was my point that Chrollo knew the Meteor elder, and likely had a deep connection with him like he does the troop. It was also my point that he retained Black Voice and Gallery Fake. If he only still has Sun and Moon because the Elder's Nen became stronger after death, then this is possible for EVERY ability in the book. I don't think this is the reason it stayed. I think it stayed because,
1. Chrollo knew this person and likely had a strong bond with them, not like he would for anyone he steals an ability from.
2. The Elder willingly gave him the Ability before he died.

When Chrollo spoke to Shalnark on the phone, he was definitely asking him if he would like him to give him back Black Voice because he was finished using it, and he had lost the antenna but could give him the phone. Shalnark said no, he doesn't need to use it right now. Shalnark then dies a few pages later. So if Shalnark died and the ability dissapeared anyway, why would Togashi include that line? It would be irrelevant, the hatsu would be gone either way. This way, he lets us know that Chrollo still had the ability when he died, fulfilling one of the conditions for him to still have the ability. Presumably the same with Kortopi.

It's also possible this is the actual reason that Sun and Moon became stronger in the first place, because the Hatsu was essentially a gift, not something he stole. So it works like this,
Normally, Chrollo steals the ability > person dies > Chrollo doesn't care, the ability dissapears from the book.
With Sun and Moon, Gallery Fake and Black Voice, Chrollo is given the ability > person dies > Chrollo mourns, the ability becomes stronger and stays in the book.

Chrollo for the most part knows all of the people he stole his abilities from. How much he knows them, i'm that varies and differs for each ability. However he can't kill them after he steals their ability because it'll just disappear. I believe how Hisoka hunts down strong opponents, Chrollo hunts w/e he wants & hatsu's to help that cause & personal greed...As for the Elder, the elder was from the same rinky ding garbage town Chrollo was from. As for the elder giving it as a gift, i doubt it. the dialogue of how he explained the nature and purpose of the ability doesn't sound like it was given up willlingly, but interrogated out. As for Black Voice & Gallery Fake; Just like how Togashi made Hisoka so do half ass'd, The holders of the hatsu would have to have had to desire for the ability to be used by chrollo or something of that nature...but those abilities are bye-bye...

 

[uberfayt]

This is down to interpretation imo until Togashi really explains it... But personally I do think that Hisoka received some sort of boost to his Nen after his death. He immediately showed new techniques which would of benefitted him during the fight with Chrollo, and so leads me to believe he was only capable of these things after he revived himself. Such as the recreation of the hand and foot he lost. Using his Nen to ''wrap" Machi up like that was a far higher level of emission we have seen from Hisoka as of yet, normally when he uses an ability like that he has to maintain some sort of connection to the Aura like the thread on Gon's face, this opens up ALOT of new possibilities. The way he used the new foot as a spring was also new, and the way he took out Shalnark in one swift blow like that it almost seemed like he received an overall boost in strength.

I agree that this is down to interpretation for now.

However I at least believe Hisoka's nen remained on the same level as it was before. The techniques he used after his rebirth were new, but nothing very impressive : Shaping a hand out of aura is relatively easy for transmuters (even Sadaso can do it), and we've already seen him detaching his bangee gum against Razor, as @Diivil mentioned. In fact in this page, it says nothing about the glueing power weakening when the aura is not linked to his body (only the stretching ).

It's not a new concept by any means, and I've always thought it's related to someone's will and desire to do or achieve something before they die. Both examples we had actually seen of this happening (Pitou and Hisoka) they had a major goal or desire they had to fulfill, Pitou in killing Gon to protect Meruem, and Hisoka's desire to defeat Chrollo and in a broader sense just strong self preservation, also a big difference in Hisoka's case is he actually specifically attempted to do it, which might be a reason for the strength increase.

Not only a very strong desire which activates nen after death, but also a high luck factor. Take Pufu for example, he also had a deep desire to protect Meruem and be by his side, but his nen still didn't remain after his sudden death. I also don't think Hisoka exibited a particularly strong desire to survive (when he was about to fall amidst the hundreds of dolls), he actually seemed to have accepted his fate. Then just wanted to try one last "excentric and highly unlikely to succeed trick", which is to give his aura the command to massage his internal organs after his death. The whole plan relied on whether the nen would remain or not after death, and it did, by pure luck (and plot armor).

I think that if somebody WILLINGLY gives Chrollo their ability and then dies, he retains the ability after they die AND the ability becomes stronger. This is why Sun and Moon didn't dissapear from the book, and also why Togashi included the lines between Chrollo and Shalnark in which he offers to give him Black Voice back but Shalnark DECLINED. It was that particular scene that gave me this whole idea, why would Togashi include that if Shalnark were to die and the ability dissapear anyway? It would be a completely pointless line. This means that ANY member of the Phantom Troupe could give Chrollo their hatsu to use FOREVER before they die.

Here I completely disagree. Chrollo never said anything about giving Shalnark his ability back. He just told him if he wanted the cellphone back. There is a huge difference.
https://www.mangareader.net/hunter-x-hunter/357/16

Hisoka didn't use everything. Many readers expected him to use Texture Surprise but he didn't. What he showed after his resurrection are applications of his two abilities. if he was unable to do it before, he would have no way to know that he can do that now. We also know that these kind of things are not easy to do under stress.

He didn't use Emission. He covered Machi with his Bungee Gum when he hugged her. The "recreation" was an application of his two abilities which belong to Transmutation and Conjuration and it's not a real one.

Shape transformation→ Rubber property→ Coating with the Conjuration ability of Texture Surprise and it's done.

I wholeheartedly agree. Except for one thing : Hisoka did use Emission to leave the Aura on Machi when he let go of his hug. As you know, for the aura to leave its user's body Emission is needed.

 

[NenMaster]

Here I completely disagree. Chrollo never said anything about giving Shalnark his ability back. He just told him if he wanted the cellphone back. There is a huge difference.

Again this is down to interpretation, but imo, why would he ever even want the cellphone back if it's irrelevant to his hatsu? If so it's just a normal Phone at this point and there is no reason he would even want it back, and the line would still be pointless.

Obviously all theories are speculation and I could be entirely wrong, but Chrollo is one of my top 3 characters in the series and I like to think I understand his character quite well so I'll give you all the reasons I came up with the idea from the top.

Firstly what we know of Chrollo and his abilities has changed drastically in the last 2 years after the fight with Hisoka, and I think it's important to acknowledge that Togashi is expanding his character and Nen abilities in this very arc, so understanding it entirely is guess work at this point, not as it was for his abilities in the York New arc..

What we knew about Chrollo from what had already been established:
He and the original members of the Troupe come from Meteor City and grew up as poor Orphans amongst the trash.
He and the other og members made the Troupe as a sort of Family, that in a way takes revenge on the world and it's inhabitants that dumped them in Meteor by stealing anything they want, and killing whoever they want to get it. They have little regard for anyone outside the Troupe if not none at all, but as far as others in the Troupe go, they are cherished family ( in a twisted way ), especially amongst the original members.
Chrollo's hatsu is directly connected to this idea, he can steal the abilities of people and hoard them in the Bandits secret, a simple connection to make. Anyone who dies, their ability dissapears from the book, this was firmly stated to be the case, it seemed impossible for him to keep the abilities of the dead.

Now since the York New arc was published in around 1999, Chrollo and his original abilities were made at a time In which the story was no where near as developed, and Nen was not as complex. When we see him next in the story, it is over 15 years later and Togashi has expanded on Nen a great deal, including the concept of Nen after death. So Chrollo is given some new toys to play with, he gets the bookmark, can use multiple abilities at the same time etc etc.. We also get an interesting FIRST look (must be important right?) into Chrollo's past from his own mouth, he uses this opportunity to tell us a very brief and half-assed story of an Elder from Meteor, who's ability has NOT dissapeared from the book as we thought was impossible, and his Nen has become 'stronger' after death.
He doesn't tell us anything about how he acquired the ability, or why the elder died, or what was different about this situation to any other ability in the book, so you could be forgiven for thinking that the only reason the ability stayed is because 'The Nen got Stronger'.. I don't think this is the reason the ability stayed, it's far too convenient, sloppy writing, and means that it's a POSSIBILITY that ANY ability in the book could be retained after the original user died, with the ONLY requirement being Nen after death becoming stronger.

So with ALL of this in mind, I asked myself, why did Sun and Moon stay in the book. What makes it so different. And the clues all fell into place. I believe Chrollo himself didn't forsee this was possible when he created Skill Hunter, for the very reason that he MADE the Hatsu to STEAL from people he had NO attachment too, not to RECEIVE abilities from his FRIENDS. So when the Meteor Elder willingly gave him his ability, Chrollo himself was shocked to discover it hadn't dissapeared when he died, and had also become stronger. We know that some of the conditions for Nen becoming Stronger after death are emotions and will, it fits with this idea also, the user willingly giving away their Nen could be seen as a strong resolve for Chrollo to have it, and somebody who Chrollo is NOT emotionally attached with would never knowingly give away their Hatsu to him.

When Shalnark and Kortopi died, and the line with the phone etc happened, it only reinforced my theory. It's the type of thing Togashi would do, make us all think that because Hisoka had taken them out it was IMPOSSIBLE for Chrollo to still have their abilities, only for us to see him use them even more skillfully next time.

 

[uberfayt]

@NenMaster We need to clarify some things first : what Chrollo told Shal is whether he wants his phone back or not. From this, I agree that you can eventually infer, among many things, that Chrollo wanted to hand shal his ability back. I disagreed above because you made it sound like Chrollo had a line where he actually proposed to return "Black voice" ^^

Now about your theory, I actually find it quite interesting. Of course it relies a lot on the vague mechanics of nen staying after death, but I still think it could happen. Maybe not all those who handed Chrollo their abilities willingly are affected, but it could be that they have the higher chance for their abilities to remain on the book after their deaths. I guess we're gonna find out soon ^^ but boy would that be a surprise for Hisoka if Chrollo still used Korutopi's ability (I think he can't use Shal's anymore cuz he lost the antennas).

Again this is down to interpretation, but imo, why would he ever even want the cellphone back if it's irrelevant to his hatsu? If so it's just a normal Phone at this point and there is no reason he would even want it back, and the line would still be pointless.

Think about this situation IRL : Say I borrowed a PS2 game from a friend. But then later that friend sold his PS2, so technically he doesn't need the game anymore. However when I'll be done with the game I'll still ask the friend if he wants it back...that's exactly how I see the Chrollo/Shal interaction. Of course nobody denies that Chrollo also intended to give him back his ability, as I said above. It's down to interpretation.

We know that some of the conditions for Nen becoming Stronger after death are emotions and will, it fits with this idea also, the user willingly giving away their Nen could be seen as a strong resolve for Chrollo to have it, and somebody who Chrollo is NOT emotionally attached with would never knowingly give away their Hatsu to him.

Yeah that's quite interesting. I wish TOgashi could elaborate more on the nen after death, that would help us understand many things.
I don't know if you've seen it yet, but there is a thread called "A hunter's guidebook on nen aura". I'm gonna cover the little bits that we know about nen staying stronger after death on Chapter 3, which should be up by tomorrow

 

[NenMaster]

@NenMaster We need to clarify some things first : what Chrollo told Shal is whether he wants his phone back or not. From this, I agree that you can eventually infer, among many things, that Chrollo wanted to hand shal his ability back. I disagreed above because you made it sound like Chrollo had a line where he actually proposed to return "Black voice" ^^

Now about your theory, I actually find it quite interesting. Of course it relies a lot on the vague mechanics of nen staying after death, but I still think it could happen. Maybe not all those who handed Chrollo their abilities willingly are affected, but it could be that they have the higher chance for their abilities to remain on the book after their deaths. I guess we're gonna find out soon ^^ but boy would that be a surprise for Hisoka if Chrollo still used Korutopi's ability (I think he can't use Shal's anymore cuz he lost the antennas).




Think about this situation IRL : Say I borrowed a PS2 game from a friend. But then later that friend sold his PS2, so technically he doesn't need the game anymore. However when I'll be done with the game I'll still ask the friend if he wants it back...that's exactly how I see the Chrollo/Shal interaction. Of course nobody denies that Chrollo also intended to give him back his ability, as I said above. It's down to interpretation.



Yeah that's quite interesting. I wish TOgashi could elaborate more on the nen after death, that would help us understand many things.
I don't know if you've seen it yet, but there is a thread called "A hunter's guidebook on nen aura". I'm gonna cover the little bits that we know about nen staying stronger after death on Chapter 3, which should be up by tomorrow

Yeah for this whole theory to be correct it relies on the meaning of the line with Shalnark and as you say, unexplained details of Nen after death. But personally I think this is a BIG possibility and something to keep in mind as the next members of the Troupe die. We will have to wait and see how it goes to find out but that's the fun in theory crafting right?
I'll check that other thread out, thanks lol

 

[KimCorrea]

I always found something strange about shalnark's ability.
I'm not sure if my way of thinking is right and is coherent with how nen works.
If shalnark's ability is materialization and manipulation, materialize his phone and send the commands throught the antennas or his phone is a regular one and he just applies manipulations conditions to it. This way he could use his hatsu and just lend the phone to kuroro for him to pretend he is using his own nen with ability while he's not.
It would mean that part was a bluff from kuroro about bookmarking shals phone ability on the book while using another one.
And we have to think about how can kuroro give someone's ability back. If he needs just to rip the page or something else.
From his talk on the phone I got the impression he couldn't do it before...
And if he could do it why the hell he didn't do it?
From this line of thought his phone was probably a regular one, that's why kuroro needed to meet him...

 

[Demonspeed]

Hisoka's texture surprise would be primarily for diversion/trick tactics..Kastro was fodder enough he was able to preform some magic tricks with it...

I highly disagree man, & I believe the answers are there before us. Ch.356 Pg.5...Next Page he says I still have my leg and uses his normal basic shape manipulation that we've always seen for Bungee Gum..Same CH. Pg.16...We see Hisoka cannot manipulate his Hatsu in the most basic of shapes.

The ability to shape a foot out of Bungee Gum, & give it the properties, not to mention a new hand, then use your gum to patch you self up....Bungee Gum was not explained to be used like this..DemonSpeed come on man just admit he came back with an power up to his hatsu...I'm not saying his overall Nen increased...No..His hatsu ability is simply stronger than it was before....

I don't see the problem here. Texture Surpise is mainly used for tricks but does it mean it can't be used for anything else? He didn't even strictly use TS there, he used his two abilities along with shape transformation. When he said he had his legs, he simply used Bungee Gun on his leg, nothing more. The ability to change shape is something you can do with simple Nen. Bungee Gum itself is very versatile, why do you need to have seen one of the previous applications to say that it was not possible? If, alive as he is, his Hatsu got boosted, then his aura also powered up because that's what happened when he died. And again, how did Hisoka know what were his new abilities? It doesn't make sense.

When he walks away from Machi, it automatically becomes an application of emission...His transmutation hatsu is existing independent from his body.

@uberfayt This is not how I see an application of Emission here. The Hatsu is separated for his body indeed but he is doing nothing with it, he is not controlling his gum. He had stuck it on Machi so it stayed there. He had nothing else to do. If he controls it remotely though then he is using Emission and Manipulation. When it's

See this is why Hisoka's resurrection taste like crappy black coffee to some....Pitou died but RG have this extreme duty they must fulfill, so his hatsu the puppeteer joint brought him back to life & he was able to continue his desire to protect the king & kill Gon. I.E Nen becoming stronger in death....Not Plot Armour for a loved character to where, he died should of but wasn't by explosions...so he resuscitated himself..-_-

Camilla's ability is actually pretty powerful. But still yet she has to die, in order for her to be brought back to life...however it kills an opponent. which I'm guessing for Camilla is her upside to this ability. We are still missing some key details to it's mechanics...Because no way are you telling me Camilla could have solo'd the chimera ants lol....

I know that some don't like what happened but I am not talking about the quality of the writing. But if you think dying and coming back to life makes you stronger. Then she gets stronger after death. Because her case is no different from Hisoka and she said that her cat benefits from this. Her ability is far from being unbeatable. You can just avoid the cat, with her attitude it's also quite easy to understand that she is a Counter type too.

Thank you for pointing out these crucial points. Also We've never seen Hisoka use advance shape manipulation for bungee period, nor emission...That time in Heaven's Arena was just his regular aura..Similar to when Gon * killua shaped numbers with their aura....

Shape transformation is a basic Transmutation application. And he is a Transmuter, a powerful one. Isn't Bungee Gum his aura as well? I don't believe he used Emission, but why would you need to see him use Emission before? We also know his max range when Bungee Gum is separated from his body is 10 meters.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 10, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 10, 2018 ---

I always found something strange about shalnark's ability.
I'm not sure if my way of thinking is right and is coherent with how nen works.
If shalnark's ability is materialization and manipulation, materialize his phone and send the commands throught the antennas or his phone is a regular one and he just applies manipulations conditions to it. This way he could use his hatsu and just lend the phone to kuroro for him to pretend he is using his own nen with ability while he's not.
It would mean that part was a bluff from kuroro about bookmarking shals phone ability on the book while using another one.
And we have to think about how can kuroro give someone's ability back. If he needs just to rip the page or something else.
From his talk on the phone I got the impression he couldn't do it before...
And if he could do it why the hell he didn't do it?
From this line of thought his phone was probably a regular one, that's why kuroro needed to meet him...

If Shalnark was a Conjurer, he would not be able to control people like that. They explained that Manipulators's items are items they must be familiar with, they are not created out of nowhere. Shalnark is a Manipulator and he needs this particular phone to use his ability. The way I understand it, if Chrollo steals an ability from a Manipulator like that, he needs to use their items as well for it to work. When he started fighting Hisoka the antennas he used were real, the antennas and phone were real, he took them from his pocket.

If he can give the stolen abilities back I believe tearing the page should do the trick. But Shalnark would need his phone to be able to use his ability. He can't manipulate someone with another one. Just like Morau would be unable to manipulate smoke from something other than his giant pipe.

 

[uberfayt]

@uberfayt This is not how I see an application of Emission here. The Hatsu is separated for his body indeed but he is doing nothing with it, he is not controlling his gum. He had stuck it on Machi so it stayed there. He had nothing else to do. If he controls it remotely though then he is using Emission and Manipulation. When it's

I undestand what you mean. But whenever Hisoka puts his glue somewhere, there is this hidden step of separating that bit aura from his body. And that small action requires Emission.
Indeed, it is established that if somebody wants to separate aura from their body, they need basic Emission skills (even if he's not planing to use manipulation on it). In fact, if separating aura (even transmuted like Hisoka's) was a natural process not involving Emission skills, then Gon wouldn't have had any problems in greed island (here), when he first thought of "Jan Ken Paper".

Here is what would've happened if Hisoka didn't use Emission to separate his aura:

• Hisoka hugs Machi while his aura is transmuted.
• Hisoka tries to back away, but the glue is keeping him stuck to Machi.

 

[Demonspeed]

I undestand what you mean. But whenever Hisoka puts his glue somewhere, there is this hidden step of separating that bit aura from his body. And that small action requires Emission.
Indeed, it is established that if somebody wants to separate aura from their body, they need basic Emission skills (even if he's not planing to use manipulation on it). In fact, if separating aura (even transmuted like Hisoka's) was a natural process not involving Emission skills, then Gon wouldn't have had any problems in greed island (here), when he first thought of "Jan Ken Paper".

Here is what would've happened if Hisoka didn't use Emission to separate his aura:

• Hisoka hugs Machi while his aura is transmuted.
• Hisoka tries to back away, but the glue is keeping him stuck to Machi.

That's not how I see things to qualify an use of Emission. Gon indeed wanted to separate his aura from his body, but in order to shoot it like a projectile. Which is what Emitters do. Hisoka affixes his aura somewhere and lets it go. He doesn't have to force something so that the gum will stay active. Once he does it there is no strain on him. When you merely separate aura from your body, you need stamina to maintain it. It's no different from continuous use of Ren.

Nen writing is another good example. The Nen user writes a message, his aura is affixed on a surface and then it's over. He doesn't have to force himself to maintain it. To me that's just a detachment, he is not emitting anything here. When you are actually using your power to keep the aura detached from you active, you are using Emission.

 

[uberfayt]

That's not how I see things to qualify an use of Emission. Gon indeed wanted to separate his aura from his body, but in order to shoot it like a projectile. Which is what Emitters do. Hisoka affixes his aura somewhere and lets it go. He doesn't have to force something so that the gum will stay active. Once he does it there is no strain on him. When you merely separate aura from your body, you need stamina to maintain it. It's no different from continuous use of Ren.

Nen writing is another good example. The Nen user writes a message, his aura is affixed on a surface and then it's over. He doesn't have to force himself to maintain it. To me that's just a detachment, he is not emitting anything here. When you are actually using your power to keep the aura detached from you active, you are using Emission.

Basically we differ on whether aura "detachment" is part of the Emisson package of Hatsu, or whether it is just a skill in its own. This is a very interesting question which I never considered before. I think the only reference we have is this page, which doesn't really clarify things ^^

Furthermore in Hisoka's case, we find ourselves facing another problem: Is detached transmuted aura considered "active" aura or not?

...God I love nen (also I wonder if Togashi thought this far about this lol)

 

[NenMaster]

Basically we differ on whether aura "detachment" is part of the Emisson package of Hatsu, or whether it is just a skill in its own. This is a very interesting question which I never considered before. I think the only reference we have is this page, which doesn't really clarify things ^^

Furthermore in Hisoka's case, we find ourselves facing another problem: Is detached transmuted aura considered "active" aura or not?

...God I love nen (also I wonder if Togashi thought this far about this lol)

The way I always understood it, anything that is not directly connected to the persons main body of aura could be considered Emission.
Interestingly Including some Conjuration and Manipulation techniques. for example Kite technically uses Emission to summon his Crazy Slot Clown, as it moves and acts independently of his main body of Aura atleast until it chooses a number, and i'm sure there are other examples of conjurers creating things that fall into this category.
Manipulators are more or less ALWAYS using Emission if they are controlling something at any range, eg Illumi and Shalnark both use Emission with their needles.
And lastly Transmuters who create something like Silva did against Chrollo, two large balls of energy and launching them, or Hisoka wrapping Machi up and walking away, that is both Transmutation and Emission. A Transmuter who doesn't do this maintains a connection to the main body of aura, as I said with Hisoka's bungee threads and also Zeno's first Dragon ability (forget what its called) he used in the fight with Chrollo.
Zeno's is even more noticeable because it essentially works as Emission, but he was really extending his aura from his main body as we can see, and this a great example of a Transmuter understanding his limits, as he is not an Emitter he can control that Dragon far better then he could if he did use it.

 

[Admiral Teach]

Another poster mentioned that Bungee Gum was used to attach the dodgeball to Razor during the Greed Island arc. So he can and has already demonstrated the capacity to apply Emission to his Hatsu. It may be more expensive though/have drawbacks. Gon isn't an Emitter or Transmuter but has Paper and Scissor, attacks from those two categories.

I watched the anime recently. Funny how I now recall little of Hisoka's tricks. Was Bungee Gum not used several times in an emitted fashion, outside the dodge ball game? If so, I don't believe the aura lasted long. But it probably could still stick like gum if enough aura is supplied.

As for Nen powerups after death, who knows. It probably gives a powerful boost, but it may be one time only. I doubt Camilla's powers grow increasingly stronger each time she resurrects. One question may be, is Hisoka' truly a living thing, or is his Nen classifying him as a Nen zombie? I'm only half joking. Perhaps he's functional, but perhaps he's also met new conditions or made a covenant, like "I will hereby kill all the spiders to the exclusion of all else".

That's only two possibilities. There are innumerable others. We can't know for certain without further information on post-life Nen powers from Camilla (the apparent expert for right now), or Hisoka's POV.

 

[Demonspeed]

Another poster mentioned that Bungee Gum was used to attach the dodgeball to Razor during the Greed Island arc. So he can and has already demonstrated the capacity to apply Emission to his Hatsu. It may be more expensive though/have drawbacks. Gon isn't an Emitter or Transmuter but has Paper and Scissor, attacks from those two categories.

I watched the anime recently. Funny how I now recall little of Hisoka's tricks. Was Bungee Gum not used several times in an emitted fashion, outside the dodge ball game? If so, I don't believe the aura lasted long. But it probably could still stick like gum if enough aura is supplied.

As for Nen powerups after death, who knows. It probably gives a powerful boost, but it may be one time only. I doubt Camilla's powers grow increasingly stronger each time she resurrects. One question may be, is Hisoka' truly a living thing, or is his Nen classifying him as a Nen zombie? I'm only half joking. Perhaps he's functional, but perhaps he's also met new conditions or made a covenant, like "I will hereby kill all the spiders to the exclusion of all else".

That's only two possibilities. There are innumerable others. We can't know for certain without further information on post-life Nen powers from Camilla (the apparent expert for right now), or Hisoka's POV.

Hisoka is definitely not a zombie. He died from suffocation, Bungee Gum stroke his heart and lungs and revived him. If he had lost his brain or something it would have never worked. Now he is alive just like before, that's why he can't benefit from the effects of Nen after death. And that is the same for Camilla. It only works when you are dead.

 

[Admiral Teach]

Reread the chapters of Hisoka vs Chrollo. Yes, he's definitely alive now.

As for his nen useage, he extends his aura outside himself to build up potential energy to catch Chrollo off guard. So he has always had minor Emitter abilities.
He also seems to use his Bungee Gum foot as an actual Bungee. So his combat power has increased by virtue of his aura now being his very limbs. I guess he learned how to manipulate it without his physical body. So it may be his Nen isn't stronger. He's just more skilled now that he's been given handicaps that HAD to be overcome.

 

[Tavore]

Can we talk about the Kakin Royal Family?

 

[Demonspeed]

Can we talk about the Kakin Royal Family?

About what?

 

[Tavore]

About what?

About whether the constant Succession Wars have influenced their Nen capacity in someway.