Discussion Ace was kind of weak?

[Sachsenhesse]

Jeah but fact is right now we have more statements that Ace didnt used haki, as statements that he used haki. The odds are high that he did have haki, but right now... it goes the other way round. Even when he had haki it still didnt help him at all. Best example, when Akainu punched right through him, why no armanenthaki? He knew from seconds before that Akainus Magma is superior, still he didnt used any haki, as seen on Akainus speech. Haki was already introduced right there, so the excuse that it didnt was known by Oda doesnt count. That all leads to my suspicion Ace only relied on the merameranomi and therefore he was way weaker then he should have been.

From what we know about Haki, it can be depleted. Ace had no chance to recover, most likely didn't use it against Akainu which explains Akainu's reaction along with his exclamation against Marco & Vista.

That goes for his devilfruitspowers at best, but not for the haki. Would be awesome if seastone could also depress that.

 

[kkck]

Jeah but fact is right now we have more statements that Ace didnt used haki, as statements that he used haki. The odds are high that he did have haki, but right now... it goes the other way round. Even when he had haki it still didnt help him at all. Best example, when Akainu punched right through him, why no armanenthaki? He knew from seconds before that Akainus Magma is superior, still he didnt used any haki, as seen on Akainus speech. Haki was already introduced right there, so the excuse that it didnt was known by Oda doesnt count. That all leads to my suspicion Ace only relied on the merameranomi and therefore he was way weaker then he should have been.



That goes for his devilfruitspowers at best, but not for the haki. Would be awesome if seastone could also depress that.

He could have had haki without learning armament haki. Even during the war we rarely saw armament haki, if at all and even law just used in very late into his fight with doflamingo IIRC. Just having armor haki does necessarily mean the user can use hardened haki as far as we know, its a more advanced skill. And normal haki leaves no evidence of presence or absence for the most part. None of the scenes you mention would provide evidence one way or the other.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Ah come on. Jinbei just held up Akainus hand with his bare hand and Ace gets a hole in his stomach?

Spoiler

So you even say that Ace couldnt use the more "complicated" skills, after beeing for a long time in the new world. If anything was going accordingly Ace wouldnt even have been a commander of WB because Teach had the older "right". He is just way too overhyped for doing nothing.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Jeah but fact is right now we have more statements that Ace didnt used haki, as statements that he used haki. The odds are high that he did have haki, but right now... it goes the other way round. Even when he had haki it still didnt help him at all. Best example, when Akainu punched right through him, why no armanenthaki? He knew from seconds before that Akainus Magma is superior, still he didnt used any haki, as seen on Akainus speech. Haki was already introduced right there, so the excuse that it didnt was known by Oda doesnt count. That all leads to my suspicion Ace only relied on the merameranomi and therefore he was way weaker then he should have been.



That goes for his devilfruitspowers at best, but not for the haki. Would be awesome if seastone could also depress that.

Didn't Vergo get cut in 2 despite being fully claded in Hako? Law's Haki was just, superior; this is possibly the case with Ace too, but we know he was fatigued and wasn't in a position to fight effectively.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

One Guinness too much dude? ^^ Why all these lame excuses to cling on the hakithing? Ace got fucked up by one punch and thats it. Fatigued from sitting around, where other guys were fighting for hours, poor guy.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

One Guinness too much dude? ^^ Why all these lame excuses to cling on the hakithing? Ace got fucked up by one punch and thats it. Fatigued from sitting around, where other guys were fighting for hours, poor guy.

No need to be aggressive, just giving facts and sensible argument mate; this is a forum after all.

He was defeated by Blackbeard, taken in by the WG, cuffed in Kairoseki which drains one's strength; of course he wouldn't be able to perform at peak.

2nd Division commander, all the other commanders so far have been shown to have Haki so it's unlikely that he didn't possess it too. He already proved he had CoC as a child, it's likely he'd have nurtured his Haki especially being a WB pirate.

There's more evidence supporting him having Haki than not and there's still the fact that Akainu showed to be superior to the WB commanders in terms of haki. We've already seen what happens to someone with weaker haki going by Vergo & law's clash.

It seems you're fixated about Akainu impaling Ace, he did the same to WB; doesn't mean neither didn't possess Haki, and both characters were weakened too due to situation and condition.

Aokiji after the time-skip lost a leg after fighting with Akainu and he scars around his clavicle, it doesn't mean Aokiji didn't possess Haki.

 

[Holt]

Ace and weak simply do not go hand in hand. It's true we didn't get to see much of his abilities but he certainly wasn't weak. He was a division commander of WB pirates and even fought Jinbei for 5 days to a standstill. Even now, DD remains intact despite fighting against a gear 4 Luffy (who used so much Haki that he actually ran out) and even took injuries from law. Just those two points are enough proof that he wasn't weak. There are numerous others like him surviving in the NW (which was undoubtedly where he fought Jinbei and later attacked WB), the shichibukia proposal and even BB telling his crew to back down because they don't stand a chance against ace. Heck even now, Luffy can't keep fighting for a day straight and Ace went 5 days and even managed to buy time to allow his crew temporarily escape WB. He was powerful, we just didn't get to properly see him in action.

 

[BASED Shinigami]

At the time of his death, Ace was one of the more powerful pirates compared to his peers. He wasn't weak at all. I think it is just unfortunate that he had to fight two of the most strongest characters the manga has introduced so far in Blackbeard and Akainu. The both of them are endgame bosses that Luffy will have to surpass by the end of the story.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

At the time of his death, Ace was one of the more powerful pirates compared to his peers. He wasn't weak at all. I think it is just unfortunate that he had to fight two of the most strongest characters the manga has introduced so far in Blackbeard and Akainu. The both of them are endgame bosses that Luffy will have to surpass by the end of the story.

It'd be absurd if Ace didn't have Haki, more so he had a bounty of 550 million berries even before he was exposed as the son of Gol D roger; bounty isn't much accurate in gauging one's power, but that's extremely high nonetheless.

 

[BASED Shinigami]

Ace most certainly had Haki. The manga confirmed that much during a flashback. He had years or ample time to develop his Haki by the time he joined WB's crew. Having Haki is almost like a requirement for becoming a notorious pirate in the NW especially being a part of a Yonko's gang.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

2nd Division commander, all the other commanders so far have been shown to have Haki so it's unlikely that he didn't possess it too. He already proved he had CoC as a child, it's likely he'd have nurtured his Haki especially being a WB pirate.

As a matter of fact... wouldnt have BB wanted to stay under the radar, Ace wouldnt be a Commander at all. Then he would have been just a mere footsoldier.

There's more evidence supporting him having Haki than not and there's still the fact that Akainu showed to be superior to the WB commanders in terms of haki. We've already seen what happens to someone with weaker haki going by Vergo & law's clash.

The funny thing is, its exact the other way round. The only thing we see from him with haki is his flashback where its unconscious, there is no proof that he used haki even if he could. Like i posted before even Akainu didnt seem to think Ace is a Hakiuser. And even when he could use haki, he wasnt very strong in this.

It'd be absurd if Ace didn't have Haki, more so he had a bounty of 550 million berries even before he was exposed as the son of Gol D roger; bounty isn't much accurate in gauging one's power, but that's extremely high nonetheless.

The government doesnt make all things public.(Luffy defeating Moria as an example) For the 550 Mill they already knew his lineage but didnt made it official before the execution. The fact that he is by name a high member of the WB-pirates play a role in there too.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Ah, I thought it was something only realized after his capture.

The fact that he possessed it as a Kid makes the speculation valid that he most likely learned to control it.

Doflamingo awakened CoC as a child too and we've seen he's able to utilize it. If fodder like Trebol and the gang were able to train Doflamingo, then I'd expect much more from the WB pirates who are actually well renowned.

Also, when Luffy used CoC unconsciously, Ace said "you too" which implies he had Haki and he's surprised Luffy possesses it too. For him to have said that also implies it's no longer an unconscious occurrence for him, but something he does consciously.

We see Logia fight all the time, but we've never seen anything they do as explicit proof they possessed or didn't possess Haki.

We've never seen Aokiji & Kizaru say they have Haki, we just assume that they do because their position as admirals validates it.

Logia's don't exactly have to be tangible in order to be effective; the same notion must be applied for Ace in that respect, he's a 2nd commander of the WB pirate.

How can a pirate of WBs status not have his commanders at least proficient in Haki? A respected and feared New World Yonko, it simply wouldn't make sense.

It's clear Haki is not that big a feat in the New World; the benefit of the doubt leans more to the notion that he must have least had it.

 

[ShenGao]

There is no information how Haki works with a logia user using it. There has to be a way to use it as a shield seen with Akainu, he survived 2 Haki slashes from Marco and Vista, but his body was still cut up. What if Haki on a logia user doesn't change his body state, he can still be be cut, permeated etc. , but it reduces the damage he recieves.
So having Haki at the moment when Ace protected Luffy wouldn't bring the result Ace wanted, it wouldn't protect Luffy, Akainus fist would go through the flame body of Ace and reach Luffy. If Ace used Haki he would be damaged, not so bad as he would without Haki, but also Luffy would be hit by Akainus magma fist.

Haki during the Marineford War was still in development, Oda didn't know how to make it visible for the readers. Now he knows it, using the blackening of body parts, weapons and the like. No one was seen with that black color during the war, but many people used it like Whitebeard, Marco and Vista.

And that Ace is weak is bullshit. We saw enough examples of his strength (the fight against Jimbei, him taking out a whole fleet of ships in Alabasta, fighting against captains in the New World, the fight against Blackbeard and so on). We didn't see him taking out Shichibukai, Marine special forces and all the other people Luffy took out, but he still did things on a same level or even above considering he was living in the New World.

 

[aurd92]

ace was awesome!

he only looked weak because he was tricked and imprisoned meaning not much food plus the chains were sea salt draining his ability slowly but surely

 

[Mighty Action X]

Ace was not weak, his full potential was not just fully exposed throughout the series.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Ace was not weak, his full potential was not just fully exposed throughout the series.

So he was weak but could have been stronger.

 

[-Ken-]

http://2.p.mpcdn.net/21471/363459/24.jpg

I think this page is enough to say that Ace is still strong without his fruit >.>

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Unless one ignores evidence then Ace may appear weak.

 

[HereNThere]

In hindsight, yes, Ace can be considered "weak". But only because he was introduced before Haki became a prominent part of the fight mechanics of the story. If Ace were introduced after Marineford, he most likely would have been quite the beast. However, for where he was in the story at the time, he was still one of the strongest characters. Crocodile is in the same boat.

Oda had his hands tied with the both of them by the time Marineford came up because if they did use Haki then, he would have ended up with a couple of plot holes.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Haki was always a part of One Piece way before it became an attribute of significance. When Luffy defeated Crocodile it's because he figured out a way to deal with his intangibility through water. However, when he encountered characters such as Smoker and Aokiji he was unable to touch them and there weren't any tricks he could use to make up for this intangibility like with Crocodile. That being the case, Oda must have already planned ahead of time and early on before introduce Haki. How else was he supposed to make non-DF characters like Garp and Shanks (a Yonko) be respected and revered if Haki wasn't already a part of his plans?

The first time we saw 2 Logias (Ace vs. Smoker) go at it, neither could touch each other at the time and imo Ace just didn't want to get involved with the Marines. From the get go he told Smoker the fight would be pointless, at the time his only focus was to find Blackbeard and the opportunity to spend some time with Luffy presented itself. If he had defeated Smoker there, it's quite possible Admirals would have been called up and we know he already had a bounty of 500m.

Hopefully we'll get a flashback of Ace to settle this once and for all, but it's only fair imo that Ace be given the benefit of the doubt:

• As a New World Pirate.
• As a commander on WB's ship (both Commander Marco & Vista possessed Haki as seen against Akainu despite no highlights) which wasn't just given to him, but had to contend for fairly.
• Commanders are almost as respected as Admirals (who we assume have Haki despite no explicit evidence)
• Ace using CoC as a kid and said "you too" when Luffy released his.
• Being able to fight with BB.
• Wbs crew were able to fight with VC's who we know use Rokoshuki and Haki.