Discussion Ace was kind of weak?

[M3J]

I'm confused. How is Ace weak without his devil fruit power when he was basically praised for being able to fight despite NOT being able to use his flames? Didn't few of the Blackbeard crew praise him for challenging one of the most powerful devil fruit? Ace was definitely powerful, and I don't see how this can be debated.

 

[HereNThere]

Haki was always a part of One Piece way before it became an attribute of significance. When Luffy defeated Crocodile it's because he figured out a way to deal with his intangibility through water. However, when he encountered characters such as Smoker and Aokiji he was unable to touch them and there weren't any tricks he could use to make up for this intangibility like with Crocodile. That being the case, Oda must have already planned ahead of time and early on before introduce Haki. How else was he supposed to make non-DF characters like Garp and Shanks (a Yonko) be respected and revered if Haki wasn't already a part of his plans?

I don't think it was. How do you explain characters like Ace and Crocoboy not having Haki, despite them being New World Veterans? I believe Oda most likely intended for weaknesses to be figured out for each Logia, like it was for Crocodile, but decided to create haki to make fights more convenient and Logia users less overpowered. Keep in mind, One Piece wasn't supposed to go on as long as it has, so it's probable that he didn't have haki in mind since the start of the series.

I doubt we'll get a flashback of Ace using haki because, again, it would create a plot hole.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I don't think it was. How do you explain characters like Ace and Crocoboy not having Haki, despite them being New World Veterans? I believe Oda most likely intended for weaknesses to be figured out for each Logia, like it was for Crocodile, but decided to create haki to make fights more convenient and Logia users less overpowered. Keep in mind, One Piece wasn't supposed to go on as long as it has, so it's probable that he didn't have haki in mind since the start of the series.

I doubt we'll get a flashback of Ace using haki because, again, it would create a plot hole.

Ace there's argument for that he possibly did.

On behalf of Crocodile, he definitely didn't possess Haki or Luffy would never have been able to defeat him so cheaply. He showed no ability in CoO (at least as Enel did) and Luffy had no issues whatsoever hitting Crocodile which eliminates CoO automatically imo.

Luffy would have referenced Crocodile having any form of Haki when Rayleigh was explaining to him and he only referenced Enel, Sentomarou and the Kuja Warriors. In my opinion, all the evidence points at Crocodile not possessing any form of haki.

As for Ace not having Haki, there's no evidence of him using it as a grown up which is a shame (besides when he was a kid where he released CoC). On the other hand, there's nothing that explicitly hints that he didn't possess other forms of Haki too.

I think one of the problems with One Piece concerning this topic in general is that we know that to hit a Logia one needs CoA, but that's not the case vice versa.

If we see a normal being hit a Logia pre time-skip or not, we can automatically conclude that he/she has haki; whereas when a Logia attacks another Logia, we just can't tell which leads me to believe that Logias don't use CoA possibly because it negates the effect of their DFs.

Smoker is obviously going to come up based on what I said about Logias not using CoA, but he's different to other Logia in the sense that he's not going to smoke anyone to death. A punch of smoke would at worst make one cough, the result is different in the case of Ace, Aokiji and Akainu.

Smoker's DF seems to mainly give him an advantage in being intangible, manoeuvring and landing surprise attacks. His DF doesn't pose that much of a threat imo.

When Akainu took Ace out, Marco and Vista attacked him and he groaned out "annoying haki users" which may imply Logias don't use Haki against each other.

All the times we've seen Logias fight each other we've never been sure as to how they fight or when they utilize Haki and what effects it has on them whilst they're intangible or in a Logia form.

If 2 Logias not possess Haki fough each other, how can we tell who will be the superior? So far the only thing one can assume is that it depends on if the DF negates the other or not going by all the dialogue pertaining to such fights.

Oda needs to show us how the fight between Akainu and Aokiji developed so we can understand better. Also, on behalf of Crocodile being weakest amongst all Logia (possibly excluding Smoker), I've got some evidence if interested to see it.

Apologies for typing so much

 

[FetherMan]

If that's the case, then you might as well say, Luffy was weak too, while he was alive. And Luffy showed some incredible strength before training under Rayleigh, not to mention he defeated two Shichibukai and Enel and other strong opponents too.

At least Ace, took on Blackbeard "alone", despite not knowing his abilities. "Weak" is the wrong word to even use, "careless" and "ill-tempered" is more like it.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

http://2.p.mpcdn.net/21471/363459/24.jpg

I think this page is enough to say that Ace is still strong without his fruit >.>

Jeah defintly. When we take a piraterookie without a great name at this time und use his possibily pregrandlineexperiences as a measurance. ^^

How is Ace weak without his devil fruit power when he was basically praised for being able to fight despite NOT being able to use his flames?

I always see him use his flames, when he does not he always gets owned.

If that's the case, then you might as well say, Luffy was weak too, while he was alive.

He was very strong for a rookiepirate, but still weak for "New-World Piratecaptain" Standards. If we take Ace in comparison with a rookie on the grandline he rocks too. But as most of the people here say his biggest feat is: "Commander of the WB Pirates" so he should be a monster nonetheless.

But... he isnt. Or he wasnt.

 

[M3J]

Given Ace's feat from limited screen presence, Ace was a pretty good fighter. He was one of the very few logia users who was praised for his ability to fight without being able to use his devil fruit power, against someone whose devil fruit power is pretty powerful. Ace also went head to head against Jinbei, which resulted in a tie although Ace's flames should be weak to Jinbei's water style.

I highly doubt the idea of haki appeared in Oda's head when Ace was first introduced, and likely when Crocodile was introduced as well. Mention of haki was extremely rare, as opposed to now. Ace didn't use haki likely because he was more concerned about protecting Luffy that he reacted instinctively to shield Luffy, and nothing else.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

POSSIBLE PROOF ACE POSSESSES CoA

One of Teach's subordinates commends Ace on his battle prowess since his DF is nullified against Teach thanks to the Yami Yami No Mi. In order to understand why he compliments Ace's ability to fight, we need to see what occurred between Teach and Ace up till this moment.

In the picture above, we see that Ace is caught by Blackbeard which is where the clue possibly lies in. We see Ace take a chop to the neck that Teach very well aimed to hit; Ace didn't dodge it slightly or evade it enough for Teach to maybe barely land a hit, it was full on contact made here.

Keep in mind he is complimented following this, but why? Ace here says "he almost broke my neck"; when someone says almost, it means they must have done something to nullify (or negate) the full effect of whatever was responsible for this to occur, for example:

• You exclaim you almost got hit by a bus, it's either the bus moved out the way or you moved out the way just in time.
• You get stabbed and tell someone you almost died, it's either they missed a vital organ or you changed the course of the knife from hitting a vital organ.

Ace couldn't change the course of Blackbeards hit or dodge it even if he tried, it'd make sense if he used CoA on his neck which protected him from consequently receiving a broken neck and resulting in "almost".

Any normal Logia would probably not use Haki at that point even if they were capable, because they're not used to being dealt blows.

To emphasize just how awesome Ace is; we see with Sabo (2nd Chief in command of the Revolutiionary Army) that even after acquiring the Mera Mera No Mi, he still dodges bullets when he could have just let them pass through. It took Sabo a while to adapt, whereas it seemingly took Ace seconds to adapt to not being intangible and making use of what was seemingly CoA to defend.

If this is the case, it certainly merits a compliment from his enemies. Nothing else in that chapter showing Ace's duel could merit a compliment:

Note: Following the scene is
Ace lunging a barrage of fire techniques at Teach before being touched isn't a big deal, so I can't see that warranting a compliment. Teach is open to attacks, so it's a given that he should be spamming attacks to weaken him, not something worth complimenting.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Ace couldn't change the course of Blackbeards hit or dodge it even if he tried, it'd make sense if he used CoA on his neck which protected him from consequently receiving a broken neck and resulting in "almost".

You are cracking me up. ^^

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

You are cracking me up. ^^

Like I said, possibly a language barrier since you're unable to retort with sound argument or find flaw to refute. You also crack me up as do a multiple of other things.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Like I said, possibly a language barrier since you're unable to retort with sound argument or find flaw to refute. You also crack me up as do a multiple of other things.

Language me?

JK

I am loving the arguments between you two.

Well let's agree that ace did have haki because he was in the new world and everyone has haki. Look at bellamy......

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Language me?

JK

I am loving the arguments between you two.

Well let's agree that ace did have haki because he was in the new world and everyone has haki. Look at bellamy......

Haha, was just best choice of word .

Indeed, personally I'm convinced he had it. If Doflamingo can be trained by scrubs like Trebol and Lao-G in combat and Haki, then I'd expect Wb to have taught Ace much better especially as a NW pirate.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Like I said, possibly a language barrier since you're unable to retort with sound argument or find flaw to refute. You also crack me up as do a multiple of other things.

Well most of your points are not even worthy of being discussed in my ears, so jeah lets just say its a languagebarrier. But please for all means continue trying so hard to find a hint that Ace official had haki. I´m waiting with an open beer.

we see with Sabo (2nd Chief in command of the Revolutiionary Army) that even after acquiring the Mera Mera No Mi, he still dodges bullets when he could have just let them pass through. It took Sabo a while to adapt, whereas it seemingly took Ace seconds to adapt to not being intangible and making use of what was seemingly CoA to defend.

And still Sabo is completly untouched, where Ace... well i hate to repeat myself. So we could argue wo did better in the end. Ace with his Logia that he had for some years or Sabo who has it since one day and mixed it with his haki.

Sabo all the way.

 

[HereNThere]

Ace couldn't change the course of Blackbeards hit or dodge it even if he tried, it'd make sense if he used CoA on his neck which protected him from consequently receiving a broken neck and resulting in "almost".

Any normal Logia would probably not use Haki at that point even if they were capable, because they're not used to being dealt blows.

To emphasize just how awesome Ace is; we see with Sabo (2nd Chief in command of the Revolutiionary Army) that even after acquiring the Mera Mera No Mi, he still dodges bullets when he could have just let them pass through. It took Sabo a while to adapt, whereas it seemingly took Ace seconds to adapt to not being intangible and making use of what was seemingly CoA to defend.

If this is the case, it certainly merits a compliment from his enemies. Nothing else in that chapter showing Ace's duel could merit a compliment:

Note: Following the scene is
Ace lunging a barrage of fire techniques at Teach before being touched isn't a big deal, so I can't see that warranting a compliment. Teach is open to attacks, so it's a given that he should be spamming attacks to weaken him, not something worth complimenting.

Honestly? The only thing that panel proves is that BB is scary strong and that Ace is pretty freaking tough. Ace said "almost" because he managed to counter BB with his Fire Spear. That attack caught BB off guard so he wasn't able to put the full amount of force into the hit. If that attack hit full on, Ace would have most likely been done for a lot earlier.

Your Sabo/Ace comparison doesn't really work. You're comparing a lack of mastery with a devil fruit to a use of basic battle sense. Sabo needed to dodge the bullets because he wasn't sure if he was going to be intangible or not. Ace knew he would be intangible and adjusted accordingly. Also, Ace has experience in fighting as a human because he wasn't always a Fire Man. Sabo, on the other hand, had no experience in being a Fire Man as he'd just been a regular human until a few minutes ago.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Well most of your points are not even worthy of being discussed in my ears, so jeah lets just say its a languagebarrier. But please for all means continue trying so hard to find a hint that Ace official had haki. I´m waiting with an open beer.



And still Sabo is completly untouched, where Ace... well i hate to repeat myself. So we could argue wo did better in the end. Ace with his Logia that he had for some years or Sabo who has it since one day and mixed it with his haki.

Sabo all the way.

It's interesting you only quote points you can Isolate from the whole extract and interpret out of the context it was set in.

For every action, there's a reaction; why don't you touch on why Van Augur compliments Ace's fighting ability despite losing his intangibility as a Logia? Or focus on what Ace does against Blackbeard prior to the compliment?

It's a story at the end of the day, actions and dialogue have to be assessed in the context of the scene or the interpretation is false or inaccurate.

You're being completely ignorant of evidence being provided through the Manga itself.

Sabo is now the user of the Mera Mera No Mi, and of course you misinterpret the point being made by the quote that Ace is even more adaptive than Sabo.

Sabo prior to the Mera Mera No Mi was using CoA often, now he doesn't rely on it as much; more or less implies that Logias perhaps don't utilize CoA as much as non-Logia characters?

Anyway, since you're reluctant to connect dots and won't attempt to read between the lines,then it's a waste of my time responding to you and your time responding back.

Enjoy your beer, lol.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

It's interesting you only quote points you can Isolate from the whole extract and interpret out of the context it was set in.

Of course. I only cut down the relevanat points i didnt had commented 1-2 pages earlier.

why don't you touch on why Van Augur compliments Ace's fighting ability despite losing his intangibility as a Logia?

I already did and because its you, i will do it again. Van Auger at this time is what? A rookiepirate who is completly new to the grandline as far as we know and didnt has a great name. Kinda comparable to Usopp at this time. that isnt a commentator who i take word by word in terms of new world pirates.

Or focus on what Ace does against Blackbeard prior to the compliment?

Fire here, Fire there. Some more fire . Quite impressive.

You're being completely ignorant of evidence being provided through the Manga itself.

Actually you are ignorant to the fact that there is no evidence. All is speculative, as even most of the people here say and i agree with that. It got a high possibilitiy that Ace has haki, but there is just no evidence.

Just for the MeraMera no Mi thing. I personally think Logias who dodge things, are much more dangerous then Logias who everytime uses their intangbility to avoid damage. Why? Well lets ask the dead logias.

 

[I Am Atomic]

I already did and because its you, i will do it again. Van Auger at this time is what? A rookiepirate who is completly new to the grandline as far as we know and didnt has a great name. Kinda comparable to Usopp at this time. that isnt a commentator who i take word by word in terms of new world pirates.

I will have to disagree. The Van Auger at Jaya will be completely different from Van Augur at Banaro Island. Why? Just like the difference between luffy at jaya and luffy in enies lobby or Usopp at jaya and usopp in enies lobby. Luffy and Usopp got stronger.

Therefore Van Augur at jaya could be Usopp sniping level right now, but at Banaro he could have Improved.

Note, it's just his sniping skills at Jaya that is compatible with Usopp in Dressrosa. His endurance is a different story.

Van Augur endured Sengoku's shock wave attack and got up easily. Usopp right now wouldn't. Luffy gear 3rd balloon took an attack from sengoku (the same shockwave attck) and luffy lost. It's Gear 3rd DEFENCE!!!

Van Augur is called The Supersonic because he is fast. Faster than current Usopp.

Van Augur did not have a great name so he is a rookie? That logic is at fault mate. If you go by that logic Blackbeard was also a rookie because he had no name and bounty. So you are saying Ace got defeated by a ROOKIE?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Of course. I only cut down the relevanat points i didnt had commented 1-2 pages earlier.



I already did and because its you, i will do it again. Van Auger at this time is what? A rookiepirate who is completly new to the grandline as far as we know and didnt has a great name. Kinda comparable to Usopp at this time. that isnt a commentator who i take word by word in terms of new world pirates.



Fire here, Fire there. Some more fire . Quite impressive.



Actually you are ignorant to the fact that there is no evidence. All is speculative, as even most of the people here say and i agree with that. It got a high possibilitiy that Ace has haki, but there is just no evidence.

Just for the MeraMera no Mi thing. I personally think Logias who dodge things, are much more dangerous then Logias who everytime uses their intangbility to avoid damage. Why? Well lets ask the dead logias.

You're comparing Van Augur to Usopp, that's absurd. These people confronted Shanks and live to tell the tale, that implies these guys are at least strong enough to withstand Haki and formidable. They're definitely stronger than the SHs at the time as they've been portrayed in that light.

Spamming fire is impressive? That's a given, and he doesn't need to concentrate to spam fire. That's not what Van Augur was impressed about, he was impressed on his defensive abilities as a Logia which is why he said Logia are usually concentrated on their DF whilst Ace wasn't and was utilizing the attributes limited to non-Logia character.

If you're a boxer it's instinctive to dodge a punch, whereas if you're a ghost you don't have to dodge punches. You lose your ability as a ghost, it's still instinctive to not evade punches because you've not yet accustomed to fighting like a tangible being. Ace adapted after just 1 attack to rely on his physical attributes to defend and that could only have been done with Haki which is why he's praised by Van Augur.

Every Logia uses their intangibility to avoid damage, no logia dodges except it's a Haki attack a la Smoker vs. Vergo. If you're accustomed to not being hit, then it's literally impossible to switch off that mentality which is the only thing Van Augur's comment can allude to.

How can he be impressed by spamming fire when that's contradicting the "Logia are too focused on their DF" and his contempt towards them? It's what he does without his DF that's being complimented and that can only be the fact that he's able to defend against Blackbeard's attacks with what is most likely Haki.

You know there's more to taking things at face value and actually reading in-between the lies? You're way too simplistic in your analysis, lol.

 

[BinkSake]

No, I don't think he's weak. It just happened that BlackBeard and Akainu was stronger.
He could even fight Aokiji well.

 

[I Am Atomic]

No, I don't think he's weak. It just happened that BlackBeard and Akainu was stronger.
He could even fight Aokiji well.

I agree he is not weak but against Aokiji all he did was melt his ice. In movie Z Aokiji can freeze lava! And that's what I call impressive

Ace got overpowered due to Akainu's DF but Aokiji fought for 10 days against that lava.

 

[M3J]

I'm not sure how anyone can argue that Ace is weak when the manga shows and says otherwise. He was praised for his fighting skills without being able to use his devil fruit, an ability that is very rare amongst logia users. Against Akainu, he was angry and wanted to hurt Akainu, and then he was more concerned about protecting Luffy than he was using haki or whatever else.

Nothing indicates that he can or can't use haki.