Quarterfinal August vs God Serena

[Enima]

Spirits don't need key to use magic. August doesn't need to summon spirit to use their magic if someone summoned them.

The spirits ARE the magic. You're treating it like Lucy just summons a normal mage and thus August could copy their magic, It's not like that. The spirits use the MP of the celestial spirit mage to fight and the mage is using the key as a medium to channel her MP. August cannot copy magic that require an external Item.

Haha, pretty sure August smiling was part of the original Melt page.
It was stated he could copy magic, holder magic being stated as an exception doesnt mean we can go around making more exceptions. By default magic is copy-able by August, if it hasnt been stated or proven otherwise its an assumption.

You dont get what i am saying, i'm not saying August's ability is an exception, and can just automatically do all the exceptional things those other examples can do, im saying that DS magic is not an exception in the first place.
Characters have been able to copy DS without any more difficulty than it takes to copy other magics, and like August they dont follow the lacrima/seed rule, which means the lacrima/seed "rule" is not in fact a rule. There is absolutely no reason for August to have any more trouble copying DS magic than copying something like Meteor.

Fair enough on Larcade but like i said, doesnt change the fact that Neinhart not having a DS lacrima made no difference in his ability to create Serena.
But Franmalth cant actually summon spirits, which is what August cant to do, Celestial Spirit magic itself was never stated to be an exception.
Sure, he swallowed him, and used DS magic. Is swallowing Natsu really all that different from copying him? Both ways take the abilities from Natsu.

I'm saying the same thing but the other way around. It was never mentioned that August can copy all types of caster magic. We can't just assume he can!

But I already showed you that they used different methods to copy magic, they are not the same as August. They were able to do stuff the august wasn't. Jellal's magic does not require a magical Item. God Serena's magic does and it's called Dragon Lacrima.

When he swallowed Natsu he also Swallowed the seed inside of him AKA the magical Item.

Example:
August vs Yukino. Yukino summons Libra. August cannot summon Libra, becaue he needs the key to do that and he doesn't have it.
So it's August vs Yukino + Libra. Libra uses gravity against August. She doesn't need any material to use gravity, it's just magic. August CAN copy Libra's magic.

Cana uses cards to create effects like explosion. Even if August was unable to copy the magic directly from Cana's cards he should've been able to copy the explosion itself according to your theory. But he can't copy any magic related to magical Items.

 

[Takuan]

The spirits ARE the magic. You're treating it like Lucy just summons a normal mage and thus August could copy their magic, It's not like that. The spirits use the MP of the celestial spirit mage to fight and the mage is using the key as a medium to channel her MP. August cannot copy magic that require an external Item.

Cana uses cards to create effects like explosion. Even if August was unable to copy the magic directly from Cana's cards he should've been able to copy the explosion itself according to your theory. But he can't copy any magic related to magical Items.

The spirits are not the magic. Spirits are entities than can use magic.
If a key was needed to use Spirit magic then Leo wouldn't be able to use magic if Lucy didn't summon him, but he can. He was able to use magic and fight, using his own MP, during Tenrou arc despite Lucy not having used her key to summon him.
Lucy uses her mp and keys to summon the spirits, which then use magic. The magics spirits use can be copied by August, unless this is Holder type magic. My previous example with Libra can be a case of Holder type magic, though we don't know whether or not she'd be able to create gravity without her scales. A spirit like Aries though, uses a magic that could be copied by August.

Does Cana need an item to create explosions? Yes, she needs cards. August doesn't have the cards, so he can't copy the explosions Cana does.
Does Aries need an item to use her magic? No she does not. So August can not summon Aries, but once Aries is summoned by Lucy and uses her magic August can copy Aries's magic, since she does not use a Hold Type magic.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 4, 2017, Original Post Date: Jun 4, 2017 ---

Isn't she using scales to use magic though?

Yeah, my bad. We don't know for sure that she needs them, but that's a possibility yeah. Just replace Libra with another spirit than doesn't require an item to use magic, like Aries or Gemini.

 

[Star Frost]

Yeah, my bad. We don't know for sure that she needs them, but that's a possibility yeah. Just replace Libra with another spirit than doesn't require an item to use magic, like Aries or Gemini.

You know if August can copy Gemini's magic, then his weakness of not copying holder type magic shouldn't be the case since Gemini can use the magic of holder type mages when they copy others

 

[Takuan]

You know if August can copy Gemini's magic, then his weakness of not copying holder type magic shouldn't be the case since Gemini can use the magic of holder type mages when they copy others

That could be a way to bypass this weakness yeah. But nothing tells us that August has seen Gemini in his life.
Plus copying Gemini would be a terrible choice because that would mean he'd transform into something and lose all of his other magics, only to copy (and not nullify) a holder type magic, which would be dumb.

 

[Star Frost]

That could be a way to bypass this weakness yeah. But nothing tells us that August has seen Gemini in his life.
Plus copying Gemini would be a terrible choice because that would mean he'd transform into something and lose all of his other magics, only to copy (and not nullify) a holder type magic, which would be dumb.

Erm no he hasn't seen them, that was just me saying.
Why would he lose his own ability?

 

[Tirl]

The spirits ARE the magic

Spirits are not a magic. Spirits are living form of life like humans or dragons, they just have a little different body without meat, but they are actually can die. They are living in their world and this was showed in manga. Leo easily can walk on earth without Lucy and her magic. How you read manga???

 

[Takuan]

Erm no he hasn't seen them, that was just me saying.
Why would he lose his own ability?

I don't know. I don't know how August's ability to copy magics, and Gemini's ability to transform into a person and copy his magic, would do together.
I'm assuming that if August transforms into somebody (like Gemini does), he will access that person's magic and physical stats, but would lose his ability and conserve only the ability of the person. At any time he'd be able to convert back to his real body and get his magic back.
I don't think we can really guess how this would work, that's just the way i see it.

 

[Seven777]

The spirits ARE the magic. You're treating it like Lucy just summons a normal mage and thus August could copy their magic, It's not like that. The spirits use the MP of the celestial spirit mage to fight and the mage is using the key as a medium to channel her MP. August cannot copy magic that require an external Item.

I'm saying the same thing but the other way around. It was never mentioned that August can copy all types of caster magic. We can't just assume he can!

But I already showed you that they used different methods to copy magic, they are not the same as August. They were able to do stuff the august wasn't. Jellal's magic does not require a magical Item. God Serena's magic does and it's called Dragon Lacrima.

When he swallowed Natsu he also Swallowed the seed inside of him AKA the magical Item.

Cana uses cards to create effects like explosion. Even if August was unable to copy the magic directly from Cana's cards he should've been able to copy the explosion itself according to your theory. But he can't copy any magic related to magical Items.

Even if spirits are the magic(they arent, they're people), August was still never stated to be unable to use Celestial Spirit magic, he was only stated to be unable to summon spirits, something Franmalth cant do either.

We can and should say August can copy every type of magic. August was stated to copy magic, not a specific type of magic, just magic in general. Dragon Slayer magic is magic, therefore August can copy Dragon Slayer magic.

Them having different methods doesnt change the fact that they didnt have to bother following your "need a seed/lacrima" rule. If Kain's doll can copy DS magic, then there is no reason August cant do the same.

Fairy Glitter is the same as DS magic, one being(Mavis) imparting magic onto another(Kana) just like how Dragons imparted magic onto the humans who would become Dragon Slayers, and yet Fairy Glitter was still no exception to August's magic.
You dont really have a leg to stand on, August copying DS magic from a Dragon Slayer is practically the same as a Dragon attaching Dragon Slayer magic onto a human. The only difference is that the Dragons gave DS magic to humans, while August is taking it from Dragon Slayers.
Melt showing up in Gildart's flashback all but confirms this.

Dragon seeds arent magic items, they are seeds that take root as a result of DS magic. They arent what powers DS magic(as shown by Natsu still having his DS magic after his seeds broke), they are just what causes DS to transform into dragons.

 

[inactive lurker account]

Had Hiro developed a more comprehensive theory of magic, or had he spent just one extra chapter explaining the perks August gets for being the son of Mavis and Zeref, it would have been easier for us to understand the details of how the copying ability works

Anyway, on the subject of August copying other sorts of copying magic, what happens if he copies the Arc of Embodiment? That should allow him to recreate certain items... Also, assuming he can copy or at least learn enchantment, can he then enchant himself and modify the scope and limitations of his copying ability? Too bad we won't be able to confirm this, but it's still nice to speculate about stuff

 

[Enima]

The spirits are not the magic. Spirits are entities than can use magic.
If a key was needed to use Spirit magic then Leo wouldn't be able to use magic if Lucy didn't summon him, but he can. He was able to use magic and fight, using his own MP, during Tenrou arc despite Lucy not having used her key to summon him.
Lucy uses her mp and keys to summon the spirits, which then use magic. The magics spirits use can be copied by August, unless this is Holder type magic. My previous example with Libra can be a case of Holder type magic, though we don't know whether or not she'd be able to create gravity without her scales. A spirit like Aries though, uses a magic that could be copied by August.

Does Cana need an item to create explosions? Yes, she needs cards. August doesn't have the cards, so he can't copy the explosions Cana does.
Does Aries need an item to use her magic? No she does not. So August can not summon Aries, but once Aries is summoned by Lucy and uses her magic August can copy Aries's magic, since she does not use a Hold Type magic.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 4, 2017, Original Post Date: Jun 4, 2017 ---

Yeah, my bad. We don't know for sure that she needs them, but that's a possibility yeah. Just replace Libra with another spirit than doesn't require an item to use magic, like Aries or Gemini.

So celestial spirits don't need keys to be used in battle?. The spirits are using up Lucy's MP when they are summoned. There have been multiple instances where the spirits disappear after a certain time because the summoner runs out of MP. Aquarious disappeared when Lucy broke her key. Loki summons himself like many of the other spirits, but he still uses up Lucy's MP. If not why doesn't lucy ask all of her spirirts to summon themselves using their own MP at the same time and fight the opponent. The spirirts are connected to the user through the key. Gildarts is the one who said that August uses copy magic and he says that August can't handle Lucy's spirits in the next page. You can't just choose to believe one thing and ignore the other

Spirits are not a magic. Spirits are living form of life like humans or dragons, they just have a little different body without meat, but they are actually can die. They are living in their world and this was showed in manga. Leo easily can walk on earth without Lucy and her magic. How you read manga???

He said he was using his own MP to stay in that world which is why he was dying. Spirits use up the summoner's MP. They don't actually die like humans, they fade away.

Even if spirits are the magic(they arent, they're people), August was still never stated to be unable to use Celestial Spirit magic, he was only stated to be unable to summon spirits, something Franmalth cant do either.

We can and should say August can copy every type of magic. August was stated to copy magic, not a specific type of magic, just magic in general. Dragon Slayer magic is magic, therefore August can copy Dragon Slayer magic.

Them having different methods doesnt change the fact that they didnt have to bother following your "need a seed/lacrima" rule. If Kain's doll can copy DS magic, then there is no reason August cant do the same.

Fairy Glitter is the same as DS magic, one being(Mavis) imparting magic onto another(Kana) just like how Dragons imparted magic onto the humans who would become Dragon Slayers, and yet Fairy Glitter was still no exception to August's magic.
You dont really have a leg to stand on, August copying DS magic from a Dragon Slayer is practically the same as a Dragon attaching Dragon Slayer magic onto a human. The only difference is that the Dragons gave DS magic to humans, while August is taking it from Dragon Slayers.
Melt showing up in Gildart's flashback all but confirms this.

Dragon seeds arent magic items, they are seeds that take root as a result of DS magic. They arent what powers DS magic(as shown by Natsu still having his DS magic after his seeds broke), they are just what causes DS to transform into dragons.

Spoiler

Is that enough?. Gildarts literally states that "August will have trouble handling Lucy's celestial spirits because he can't copy without the material"

Not really. Dimaria can stop time.... with certain limits. Zeref can kill people..... With certain limits. Ultear can control time...... with certain limits. August can copy magic...... with certain limits and that limit is "he can't copy without the material"

They use different types of magic, why are you comparing them. Can I say Romeo can eat fire, since Natsu can do it.

Yeah but Gode Serena uses Dragon Lacrima, not seed. Dragon Lacrima is a magical Item with physical existence. Ivan Dreyar even wanted to extract it from Laxus. Second generation DS gain their powers from Dragon Lacrima.

 

[Seven777]

So celestial spirits don't need keys to be used in battle?. The spirits are using up Lucy's MP when they are summoned. There have been multiple instances where the spirits disappear after a certain time because the summoner runs out of MP. Aquarious disappeared when Lucy broke her key. Loki summons himself like many of the other spirits, but he still uses up Lucy's MP. If not why doesn't lucy ask all of her spirirts to summon themselves using their own MP at the same time and fight the opponent. The spirirts are connected to the user through the key. Gildarts is the one who said that August uses copy magic and he says that August can't handle Lucy's spirits in the next page. You can't just choose to believe one thing and ignore the other


He said he was using his own MP to stay in that world which is why he was dying. Spirits use up the summoner's MP. They don't actually die like humans, they fade away.

Spoiler

Is that enough?. Gildarts literally states that "August will have trouble handling Lucy's celestial spirits because he can't copy without the material"

Not really. Dimaria can stop time.... with certain limits. Zeref can kill people..... With certain limits. Ultear can control time...... with certain limits. August can copy magic...... with certain limits and that limit is "he can't copy without the material"

They use different types of magic, why are you comparing them. Can I say Romeo can eat fire, since Natsu can do it.

Yeah but Gode Serena uses Dragon Lacrima, not seed. Dragon Lacrima is a magical Item with physical existence. Ivan Dreyar even wanted to extract it from Laxus. Second generation DS gain their powers from Dragon Lacrima.

Or if we go by the mangastream translation

Spoiler

All that was stated about August was that like Lucy, he cant use spirits without keys, no different than Franmalth. So no, Franmalth hasnt done anything August was stated to be unable to do. He didnt "handle" any spirits either, just absorbed them.

I am comparing them because they are comparable. You are saying DS magic cant be copied because the user needs a seed/lacrima, i am proving that seeds/lacrimas are not a requirement.
Romeo cant eat fire because Romeo was never said to be able to eat magic. August can copy DS magic because he was stated to be able to copy magic.

DS lacrima become a part of a wizards body, just like the Fairy Glitter tattoo became a part of Kana's body. If August's magic works on Kana, then it works on God Serena.

 

[Enima]

Or if we go by the mangastream translation

Spoiler

All that was stated about August was that like Lucy, he cant use spirits without keys, no different than Franmalth. So no, Franmalth hasnt done anything August was stated to be unable to do. He didnt "handle" any spirits either, just absorbed them.

I am comparing them because they are comparable. You are saying DS magic cant be copied because the user needs a seed/lacrima, i am proving that seeds/lacrimas are not a requirement.
Romeo cant eat fire because Romeo was never said to be able to eat magic. August can copy DS magic because he was stated to be able to copy magic.

DS lacrima become a part of a wizards body, just like the Fairy Glitter tattoo became a part of Kana's body. If August's magic works on Kana, then it works on God Serena.

Yeah, but he says August can't copy without the "tools" in the next panel. Those are totally two different types of magic. Franmalth absorbs the soul of a person or a being. August simply copies the magic. They aren't the same.

August never said he could copy magic, Gildarts did and he also said that August can't copy magic that require a magical item.

Dragon lacrima is a tool with physical existence. I don't think you can really Hold fairy glitter with your hand.

 

[Seven777]

Yeah, but he says August can't copy without the "tools" in the next panel. Those are totally two different types of magic. Franmalth absorbs the soul of a person or a being. August simply copies the magic. They aren't the same.

August never said he could copy magic, Gildarts did and he also said that August can't copy magic that require a magical item.

Dragon lacrima is a tool with physical existence. I don't think you can really Hold fairy glitter with your hand.

Sure, August cant do it without the tools, but a DS lacrima isnt a tool, its a part of the users body. You dont hit people with DS lacrimas, you dont shoot DS magic out of a lacrima you hold in your hand. No you shoot the magic out of your hands and mouth etc, like any other caster magic.
DS Lacrima becomes a part of the users body, just like Fairy Glitter does, its the same thing.

Fairy Glitter physically exists in the form of a tattoo, not being able to hold it in your hand isnt the same thing as not physically existing.

 

[Enima]

Sure, August cant do it without the tools, but a DS lacrima isnt a tool, its a part of the users body. You dont hit people with DS lacrimas, you dont shoot DS magic out of a lacrima you hold in your hand. No you shoot the magic out of your hands and mouth etc, like any other caster magic.
DS Lacrima becomes a part of the users body, just like Fairy Glitter does, its the same thing.

Fairy Glitter physically exists in the form of a tattoo, not being able to hold it in your hand isnt the same thing as not physically existing.

Yes but the user still needs the Dragon Lacrima to use DS magic. It could also be removed from the user's body as Ivan Dreyar mentioned. The dragon Lacrima inside the body of a DS what enables him to use dragon slayer magic. Without it he can't use DS magic. Most caster magics don't require a tool, so August can copy them. But that's not the case with 2nd generation dragon slayers.

You don't need any tool to use fairy glitter. It's simply a magic that Mavis could pass on to other people. Silver did this with Gray, Igneel did it with Natsu and Mavis did it with Cana.

 

[inactive lurker account]

But what does it mean for something to be a 'tool' or a 'medium' such that it can block August's copying and nullification ability? I suppose this is the thorny issue at stake if we are to claim that a particular spell used in a particular manner would bypass August...

Here are a few questions worth thinking about:

(1) Mages make use of magic power to cast spells, but how come their skin or their clothes are not counted as a medium, while a prosthetic arm is?
(2) Wahl is a mechanical being, so does that mean his cannon attacks can be copied whereas a similar attack from a created robot cannot be copied?
(3) If a mage transfers some magic attribute to another mage acting as a conduit and the second mage casts a spell making use of the first mage's attribute, can it be copied?
(4) What about a mage that gains a temporary power boost via some food or device, can the enhanced caster magic be copied?
(5) Does Irene's human form count as a mere medium, given that it isn't her real body?

Loopholes to August's power can then be constructed depending on how one construes a 'medium' or a 'tool'

 

[Seven777]

Yes but the user still needs the Dragon Lacrima to use DS magic. It could also be removed from the user's body as Ivan Dreyar mentioned. The dragon Lacrima inside the body of a DS what enables him to use dragon slayer magic. Without it he can't use DS magic. Most caster magics don't require a tool, so August can copy them. But that's not the case with 2nd generation dragon slayers.

You don't need any tool to use fairy glitter. It's simply a magic that Mavis could pass on to other people. Silver did this with Gray, Igneel did it with Natsu and Mavis did it with Cana.

So what? Fairy Glitter needs the tattoo to be cast, and the tattoo can also be removed.
The tattoo is the tool. Dragon Lacrimas work exactly the same as the tattoos do, they are magic passed on to other people. The tattoos not having the same shape as a lacrima, doesnt change the fact that it is a tool that needs to be there for the wizard to use its magic.

 

[Enima]

So what? Fairy Glitter needs the tattoo to be cast, and the tattoo can also be removed.
The tattoo is the tool. Dragon Lacrimas work exactly the same as the tattoos do, they are magic passed on to other people. The tattoos not having the same shape as a lacrima, doesnt change the fact that it is a tool that needs to be there for the wizard to use its magic.

The tattoo is a symbol that shows Cana can use fairy glitter, she doesn't need it to cast Fairy glitter. It's kinda like Gray's Markings. Are you telling me Gray will lose his devil slayer abilities if someone burned his hand or cut his hand off?. It has never been stated that the tattoos are the source of their powers while it has been stated that dragon lacrimas are the source of 2nd generation dragon slayer's powers.

 

[Seven777]

The tattoo is a symbol that shows Cana can use fairy glitter, she doesn't need it to cast Fairy glitter. It's kinda like Gray's Markings. Are you telling me Gray will lose his devil slayer abilities if someone burned his hand or cut his hand off?. It has never been stated that the tattoos are the source of their powers while it has been stated that dragon lacrimas are the source of 2nd generation dragon slayer's powers.

The fact that we literally see the tattoo installed onto her arm when she was granted Fairy Glitter isnt enough for you?

Spoiler

The mark is the source of Fairy Giltter, thats why Mavis says she lent her the mark, not the spell

Spoiler

Either way, something is the source of the magic, regardless of whether its a tattoo or a lacrima or something else, the fact is that the magic can be extracted just the same

Spoiler

And yet Fairy Glitter is still no exception to August's magic, just like God Serena's magic wouldnt be.

 

[Enima]

The fact that we literally see the tattoo installed onto her arm when she was granted Fairy Glitter isnt enough for you?

Spoiler

The mark is the source of Fairy Giltter, thats why Mavis says she lent her the mark, not the spell

Spoiler

Either way, something is the source of the magic, regardless of whether its a tattoo or a lacrima or something else, the fact is that the magic can be extracted just the same

Spoiler

And yet Fairy Glitter is still no exception to August's magic, just like God Serena's magic wouldnt be.

Nope, it isn't the source of the power. The tattoo just appears because she received fairy glitter.

She said "I have bestowed Fairy glitter upon you" she never says anything about the tatoo.

You don't get it. Dragon Lacrima is the source of a dagon slayer's power, it was stated in the manga. Tattoo isn't the source of Cana's power, it was never stated in the manga.

Forget that, tattoo is not an object to begin with

 

[Takuan]

So celestial spirits don't need keys to be used in battle?. The spirits are using up Lucy's MP when they are summoned. There have been multiple instances where the spirits disappear after a certain time because the summoner runs out of MP. Aquarious disappeared when Lucy broke her key. Loki summons himself like many of the other spirits, but he still uses up Lucy's MP. If not why doesn't lucy ask all of her spirirts to summon themselves using their own MP at the same time and fight the opponent. The spirirts are connected to the user through the key. Gildarts is the one who said that August uses copy magic and he says that August can't handle Lucy's spirits in the next page. You can't just choose to believe one thing and ignore the other


He said he was using his own MP to stay in that world which is why he was dying. Spirits use up the summoner's MP. They don't actually die like humans, they fade away.

Yes, keys are needed, and yes, the spirits use Lucy's MP when she summons them.
However this is not always true.

When Loki was Karen's spirit, he decided to remain in the physical world, and thus kept draining Karen's MP. She tried to summon a second spirit and died because it was too much. So she died, yet Loki stayed in the human world using his own MP. His key wasn't needed anymore, Karen's MP wasn't needed anymore.
When Leo decided to be Gray's partner in Tenrou, Lucy didn't summon him, he came by himself by using his own MP. He even said to Lucy "don't worry, i won't be using your MP, i'll use my own so you can open other gates".

Keys are needed for a summoner to summon, yes, and they drain the summoner's MP. But still, spirits CAN and have shown to be able to summon themselves without needing the key or the summoner, and by using their own MP.
Why doesn't Lucy ask them to summon themselves? Because they are not strong enough. Leo is an exception, with Virgo staring to do it as well.

That's not even the debate anyway. You're saying Spirits are a magic, that's just false, they are entities, they are people. Sure they live in a different world and are immortal, and can be summoned with a key. But they still have their own MP and their own magic. If they use a magic against August, August can copy it.