Team EOS Luffy, BB and Zoro vs Prime Roger, WB and Garp

[Ramen]

Yeah but I feel like he said more than that.

That would be your interpretation.

But I did say it's possible that Luffy doesn't surpass Whitebeard or maybe even Roger. Whitebeard had an OP devil fruit, monstrous strength, and monstrous durability on top of advanced CoO and probably CoA.

Luffy has to.

 

[Nie Li]

2. Defeating or tricking the Yonkou isn't necessary, apparently, unless you mean tricking as in finding a way to avoid fighting them. Fighting the Yonkou seems to be a choice, especially since it'd be hard to stay away from them when they and the Marines are gunning for the aspirant Pirate King.

Yeah, that's what I meant by tricked. To find the Rio Poneglyphs that are currently in their possession the Yonko must be either tricked or defeated. I still think the easiest way to copy every RP is by having Blueno's DF.

True, World's Greatest Swordsman though could be the best swordsman but a weak fighter, while the PIrate King could be the second or third strongest pirate and still get to Raftel because of superior luck.

I have a hard time picturing the WSS being a weak fighter, since strength is the only way to prove who's the superior swordsman, but it's not impossible.

To be fair, by using Blueno's DF, even Blueno himself could become PK, but if anyone who's not a top tier reaches Raftel he will be killed by the others as soon as he starts claiming he's found the One Piece, so it would be a short-lived PK.

It could also be a charismatic weakling with overpowered subordinates. What Buggy almost became (on a lesser scale, but I'm just using him as an example).


A PK must be strong, but not necessarily the strongest.

 

[King Moe]

Luffy makes it clear he wants to fight all the Yonkos, not run away, so if that is the case, him being PK would be over WSS anyday and gap between him and Zoro is farther as much as Old Legends like Roger, Whitebeard, and Garp who are PK Tier. WSS won't be on that level given it all about being good in swordsmanship only, not overall stronger than anyone else who fights in many ways especially Yonkos with diverse fighting style than just about their weapons. PK >>>>>>> WSS as just how Oda stated since early series on where he wants it to go with Luffy and those in that tier.

 

[LadyVados]

@King Moe Zoro didn’t even really call Kaido the strongest, he said it in a mocking way

 

[M3J]

Luffy has to.

He doesn't have to. He just has to be able to survive against opponents thrown at him.

Yeah, that's what I meant by tricked. To find the Rio Poneglyphs that are currently in their possession the Yonko must be either tricked or defeated. I still think the easiest way to copy every RP is by having Blueno's DF.


I have a hard time picturing the WSS being a weak fighter, since strength is the only way to prove who's the superior swordsman, but it's not impossible.

To be fair, by using Blueno's DF, even Blueno himself could become PK, but if anyone who's not a top tier reaches Raftel he will be killed by the others as soon as he starts claiming he's found the One Piece, so it would be a short-lived PK.

It could also be a charismatic weakling with overpowered subordinates. What Buggy almost became (on a lesser scale, but I'm just using him as an example).


A PK must be strong, but not necessarily the strongest.

Ah okay.

Swordsmanship is different from overall fighting though, no? Otherwise Luffy would have been a pretty good swordsman as well.

 

[Nie Li]

Ah okay.

Swordsmanship is different from overall fighting though, no? Otherwise Luffy would have been a pretty good swordsman as well.

Long post incoming. In the spoiler tag I'll try to cover the whole topic of swordsmanship in One Piece, which is getting pretty offtopic but it's how I support my believes on the topic at hand.

Spoiler: Swordsmen

The hard thing of talking about swordsmen in One Piece is defining what a swordsman is. It's clear that having some technique with a sword is necessary, but there are different kinds of swordsmen.

For starters, the most basic differentiation between swordsmen is whether they use the strong blade (Zoro) or the gentle blade (Tashigi or Brook); meaning whether they focus more on overpowering their opponents through strength or through speed, while Mihawk is supposed to be a perfect master of both things.

But those are not the only types. For example, Zoro recognized Cabaji as a swordsman. Cabaji was a guy who fought on an unicycle, throwing spinning tops and spewing flames, and that showed no special techniques with his sword, but the fact that he wielded one as his main weapon was enough for Zoro to consider him one, so it's clear to me we should consider swordsmen any character who uses a sword as his main weapon even if he uses additional tricks as part of his fighting style. If such a man defeated Mihawk, it may not feel the most honorable, but he would effectively become the World Strongest Swordsman.

To further support that point, Oda has acknowledged characters like Ohm as swordsmen. Ohm only showed basic swordsmanship and his main strengths came from the gimmick in his sword and from having the giant dog he had tamed tag-team his opponents. He couldn't be any more dirty as a swordsman, but he was one.

There's usually some people who argue that the WSS title is only about skill and that characters like Shanks may not be WSS because they lack skill but are still superior fighters. I personally think it's a flawed argument for different reasons. For one, haki is clearly part of swordsmanship in One Piece. If, for example, Brook, had somehow more "real-life skills" than Zoro with his sword but he was defeated in one slash because Zoro broke his sword with haki, then Zoro would be the stronger and better swordsman. Haki is swordsmanship when applied to it. Also, a character like Rayleigh being able to kick or punch his opponent in a fight doesn't make him be less of a swordsman: those are just part of the fighting style. If someone were to duel Mihawk and in the middle of the swordfight they just knocked him out with a punch, they would have still won as swordsmen.

One way to support this is that if Cabaji is considered one, there's no way that Shanks or Rayleigh aren't just because they can throw a punch. Zoro also can, and I bet Mihawk can, too, if he wished to.

Another way to support this is that if only "pure skills" and not overall fighting skills and haki were taken into consideration, it would be both impossible to measure and pointless. They have to fight and defeat eachother to prove who's stronger, like Zoro has been doing, and like he told to Cabaji, there are no excuses to be made. Either they win or they don't. It would be very hard to Mihawk to have achieved his title by going "Hey, Shanks, let's fight, but let's only use basic swordsmanship and not throw anything else at each other, alright? This way we'll see who's stronger in this very specific field of techniques". I believe they are always all-out fights, or at least, all-out friendly bouts in their case.

Now, coming back to your question. In the case of Luffy, it all depends in if he could actually properly attack with the sword and not just hold it like an ornament. For example, when he was Nightmare Luffy in Thriller Bark, he was a swordsman, because he could actually use a sword in a efficient way on top of being able to throw devastating punches. But normal Luffy wouldn't have the skills to do much with it, and I think that's the only thing that differenciates him from a swordsman. If he had some skill with it, that would be enough to call him one.


There's also the possibility of there being stronger swordsmen than Mihawk that did not care about the title, but it's unlikely going with the plot and his purpose as a character. Taking all of this into account, EOS Zoro who should have become the strongest swordsman, he should be above any character that could be considered one. In the case of Shanks, it should be much clearer than if we talked for example about Law.

Now it depends on how Shanks actually compares to WB, Roger and Garp. I honestly don't know, but I like to think that while the older generation always seems unreachable, it's mostly because they become legends and due to oldage it can never be confirmed that their prime has been surpassed.

For Zoro to become WSS, going by what I believe, he should become Yonko-tier. I don't think he'll ever be able to stomp a Yonko, I'm not crazy, being on the same level as them is enough to defeat them, so it all comes down to how the current Yonko compare to the top-tiers from the past, and that's what we should debate about here.

Luffy and BB are sure to reach Roger's tier; Zoro is the weak link in the chain, but if the current Yonko are on that tier, then Zoro EOS will be, too.

So, what do you think about the yonko?

 

[LadyVados]

@Moegara I think 999 seems to tell us the difference between Prime WB and Kaido isn’t very big at all...

...If it even exists

And if we assume EOS Zoro decisively surpasses Big Mom...

 

[Ramen]

He doesn't have to. He just has to be able to survive against opponents thrown at him.


Ah okay.

Swordsmanship is different from overall fighting though, no? Otherwise Luffy would have been a pretty good swordsman as well.

He has to. Rayleigh himself eluded to it.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 21, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 21, 2020 ---

@Moegara I think 999 seems to tell us the difference between Prime WB and Kaido isn’t very big at all...

...If it even exists

And if we assume EOS Zoro decisively surpasses Big Mom...

Stop saying this. You keep saying this. It doesn't say that at all.
..there is a gap between them.

 

[LadyVados]

Stop saying this. You keep saying this. It doesn't say that at all.
..there is a gap between them.

If the gap was as big as you say WB would have gone to Wano.

 

[Ramen]

If the gap was as big as you say WB would have gone to Wano.

WB wasn't in his prime when they found out and it was clear he had no intention to do it regardless.

Next headcanon.

 

[LadyVados]

WB wasn't in his prime when they found out and it was clear he had no intention to do it regardless.

Next headcanon.

It’s headcanon he wasn’t in his prime.

 

[Ramen]

It’s headcanon he wasn’t in his prime.

Ace was on the crew when they found out. It's confirmed that WB was sick before Ace even joined.

 

[LadyVados]

Ace was on the crew when they found out. It's confirmed that WB was sick before Ace even joined.

Not true, they knew about it long before Ace joined.

 

[Ramen]

Not true, they knew about it long before Ace joined.

They literally say "years after" lol. WB had no intention going in. That doesn't mean he was scared or it relates PL. You're just hell bent on downplaying WB for the 992389238th time.....and you're still wrong lol.

 

[LadyVados]

They literally say "years after" lol. WB had no intention going in. That doesn't mean he was scared or it relates PL. You're just hell bent on downplaying WB for the 992389238th time.....and you're still wrong lol.

?
I’ve never downplayed WB nor do I care either way for how strong he was. You must be confusing me with someone else.

It was years after Oden died but years before Ace joined the crew, WB could have still been in his prime or near it.

 

[Ramen]

?
I’ve never downplayed WB nor do I care either way for how strong he was. You must be confusing me with someone else.

It was years after Oden died but years before Ace joined the crew, WB could have still been in his prime or near it.

No he wasn't. Show proof dude.

And you're still wrong about WB being scared lol. They had no intention of going in regardless.

 

[LadyVados]

No he wasn't. Show proof dude.

And you're still wrong about WB being scared lol. They had no intention of going in regardless.

WB, Marco and Izo all talk about finding out in past tense

 

[Ramen]

WB, Marco and Izo all talk about finding out in past tense

Yes....years later lol.

 

[King Moe]

@King Moe Zoro didn’t even really call Kaido the strongest, he said it in a mocking way

Lol mocking way? How? He declare in serious face he is the strongest pirate lol. Zoro doesn't throw around that talk on someone's strength just on anyone XD.

 

[LadyVados]

Yes....years later lol.

Wasn't WB still prime 10 years before MF ?