TV Game of Thrones (A Song of Ice and Fire - TV Adaption)

xi0 · May 5, 2022

We have a separate thread for House of the Dragon now, just in case people were going to watch

TV - House of The Dragon

This Thread is for discussing everything related to it.

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Riku · May 7, 2021

I think this looks quite good actually. Matt Smith as Daemon being the most mixed feeling for me too though. But who knows, he's a talented guy so might as well nail it.

I've always liked Rhys Ifans a lot. He seems like a perfect cast for a Hightower / The Hand character.

I think the black Velariyon is a nice touch of diversity. I mean, a Baratheon could have made sense, but we must remember that this is the show-version of the universe with a lot of casual viewers as well. A black Baratheon might have confused people. (Not that its an real issue, but people could have made it one). So I guess the safest bet for diversity is to introduce a "new House", and make them the purest old Valyrian house in the show-canon.

xi0 · May 7, 2021

Thinking about it, in my head he strikes me as the type of casting you'd have for Jaehaerys I or Baelor the Blessed. Definitely not the whoring, dragonriding Rogue Prince, or King of the Narrow Sea...

--- Double Post Merged, May 7, 2021, Original Post Date: May 7, 2021 ---

Ustegius said:
I think the black Velariyon is a nice touch of diversity. I mean, a Baratheon could have made sense, but we must remember that this is the show-version of the universe with a lot of casual viewers as well. A black Baratheon might have confused people. (Not that its an real issue, but people could have made it one). So I guess the safest bet for diversity is to introduce a "new House", and make them the purest old Valyrian house in the show-canon.

I think changes like what you describe sort of gets the show off on the wrong foot for me. The books have such geographical detail that it's hard for me to think of House Velaryon looking any different than Targaryens themselves, much less a Summer Islander. A Baratheon could be explained away using their bastard Targ lineage... but I guess a change like that wouldn't really be any better in my eyes either. :lmao

It just... doesn't make much sense given that Rhaenyra is his daughter in law and she has heirs, etc. Well, guess it depends on how her first husband is depicted maybe... It might make some things too obvious, lol. An entire, important plotline revolves around the appearance of his grandchildren... so idk

I guess it's unimportant to the majority of people tuning in, but it's still a headscratcher for a book elitist like me, sigh. If he pulls it off, more power to him.

kkck · May 7, 2021

In GoT character appearance and race are deeply connected to their respective motherlands... it isn't exactly a globalized world. The seven kingdoms are as far as I can tell the most globalized part of the world given how an entire continent united under a single crown. And even then for the most part each group of people sticks to their homeland and you can tell them apart almost immediately by appearance alone. This is a show where ed discovered cercei had an incestous relationship with her brother because her kids had blonde hair rather than brown. If in the books there was a black valyrian it'd definitely be an headscratcher if the characters don't straight up laugh at him or her.

xi0 · May 7, 2021

kkck said:
If in the books there was a black valyrian it'd definitely be an headscratcher if the characters don't straight up laugh at him or her.

It can be a possibility, as long as the Valyrian wasn't a dragonrider or had dragonrider lineage. But most Westerosi houses from Old Valyria had dragons.

To get more into why this change is specifically stupid in the context of this show's plotline -

Basically, Rhaenyra Targaryen's three sons do not look like typical Targaryens, and this is noteworthy because she married Laenor Velaryon, Corlys Velaryon's only son and heir. All three of them have brown hair and eyes, and it's speculated that she had them with her lover, Harwin Strong, as Laenor is quite heavily hinted at being gay.

Now why does this matter? Well, in the books them not having pale hair and skin (typical Valyrian features) is a bone of contention and factors into their treatment and story. But in the show, if Corlys is supposed to be Summer Islander, then you wouldn't really expect them to look like Valyrians in any case. Their appearance simply wouldn't be noteworthy. So even though the actor looks awesome and might be amazing in the role, the casting is kinda hamstringing that part of the plot and making it rather nonsensical if it's kept intact.

kkck · May 8, 2021

xi0 said:
It can be a possibility, as long as the Valyrian wasn't a dragonrider or had dragonrider lineage. But most Westerosi houses from Old Valyria had dragons.

To get more into why this change is specifically stupid in the context of this show's plotline -

Basically, Rhaenyra Targaryen's three sons do not look like typical Targaryens, and this is noteworthy because she married Laenor Velaryon, Corlys Velaryon's only son and heir. All three of them have brown hair and eyes, and it's speculated that she had them with her lover, Harwin Strong, as Laenor is quite heavily hinted at being gay.

Now why does this matter? Well, in the books them not having pale hair and skin (typical Valyrian features) is a bone of contention and factors into their treatment and story. But in the show, if Corlys is supposed to be Summer Islander, then you wouldn't really expect them to look like Valyrians in any case. Their appearance simply wouldn't be noteworthy. So even though the actor looks awesome and might be amazing in the role, the casting is kinda hamstringing that part of the plot and making it rather nonsensical if it's kept intact.

Fair enough but... that's pretty much saying this makes sense ONLY if the character in question does not have any of the stuff which makes a valyrian a valyrian. Which gets us back to the head scratching.

I still have not read fire and blood but that is very well in line with what I mentioned earlier. It's pretty much the same example as the one I mentioned minus the incest. While in the series melanin itself isn't seen as an issue (that I recall) the overall appearance, origin and bloodline is a huge part of the cultural context and more importantly in the relationship between the great houses.

xi0 · May 8, 2021

kkck said:
Fair enough but... that's pretty much saying this makes sense ONLY if the character in question does not have any of the stuff which makes a valyrian a valyrian. Which gets us back to the head scratching.

I still have not read fire and blood but that is very well in line with what I mentioned earlier. It's pretty much the same example as the one I mentioned minus the incest. While in the series melanin itself isn't seen as an issue (that I recall) the overall appearance, origin and bloodline is a huge part of the cultural context and more importantly in the relationship between the great houses.

True, I got lost in being pedantic. Just wanted to emphasize that race purity might not have been universal. I mean, I don't think there's a point in trying to whitewash that aspect of Old Valyria, they did have slaves. But there is definitely examples of those who you wouldn't consider plain Valyrians having some Valyrian features. A good example would be Nettles. Unsure if there's speculation on her casting or not, but she'd be a perfect fit for a young black actress.

kkck · May 8, 2021

xi0 said:
True, I got lost in being pedantic. Just wanted to emphasize that race purity might not have been universal. I mean, I don't think there's a point in trying to whitewash that aspect of Old Valyria, they did have slaves. But there is definitely examples of those who you wouldn't consider plain Valyrians having some Valyrian features. A good example would be Nettles. Unsure if there's speculation on her casting or not, but she'd be a perfect fit for a young black actress.

Definitely, the issue to consider here is that ultimately the framing around appearances in the series along with the point at which high born folk would make a concession is power. Do the lannisters value their perfect golden locks and do valyrians value their otherworldly appearance? yeah, definitely. Would either shy away from a marriage that brings them power because of any amount of melanin? Westeos folk? Definitely not. Targaryan? Begrudgingly but they wouldn't shy away from it. In more recent events.... You had the thing where rheagar didn't have a sister so they had to settle for the sufficiently noble elia. And in spite of having no valyrian options (ugh) aerys didn't have much love for his dornish grandchildren. You'd think a lannister would be a better bet than a dornish to preserve valyrian looks... Now, I can buy an old timey valyrian marrying a non valyrian for power (specially if that power is freaking dragons) and said blackness being over time both valyrian washed while protected by said dragons. But there is no way for a black valyrian to not stand out in all the bad ways in what is otherwise definitely an incest driven backstabbing happy court.

GB · May 8, 2021

Are we getting a dragon

xi0 · May 8, 2021

Goodboy said:
Are we getting a dragon

There should be something like 20 or so dragons when this show starts. The events of this time period contributed greatly to them disappearing.

Rikudou King · May 9, 2021

Gotta say I'm on the side that don't really see the characters matching what they should look like, but I'm willing to give it a chance. There were a few choices in the orginal series that I didn't agree with, that ended up working out quite well, so perhaps this will be a similar case.

xi0 · May 9, 2021

Rikudou King said:
Gotta say I'm on the side that don't really see the characters matching what they should look like, but I'm willing to give it a chance. There were a few choices in the orginal series that I didn't agree with, that ended up working out quite well, so perhaps this will be a similar case.

I'm definitely willing to give it a chance despite HBO ruining the first series, because the world and source material is that good.

Out of curiosity, what were those?

Rikudou King · May 9, 2021

xi0 said:
Out of curiosity, what were those?

The biggest would be Cersei and Jaime, since they were suppose to be identical... Obviously that would have been a hard thing to do. And I had previous seen Lena Headey in that Terminator tv show, which was only alright. But both of them really outdid themselves, and in the case of Lena Headey, she actually made me like the character of Cersei more then the books did. Another was Theon, who was suppose to be quite handsome, which I didn't really see with the actor... But once we got to the Ramsay arc, he really killed that role. I think I also disliked the choice of Dinklage, due to the opposite of him being too good looking for Tyrion, but I guess he did so good in the first episode that I didn't care because I don't remember questioning him after that.

Sadly, I thought Euron's casting was perfect, but that ended up bust... though I can't blame the actor for that as it was more on the material he was given...

xi0 · May 10, 2021

Rikudou King said:
The biggest would be Cersei and Jaime, since they were suppose to be identical... Obviously that would have been a hard thing to do. And I had previous seen Lena Headey in that Terminator tv show, which was only alright. But both of them really outdid themselves, and in the case of Lena Headey, she actually made me like the character of Cersei more then the books did. Another was Theon, who was suppose to be quite handsome, which I didn't really see with the actor... But once we got to the Ramsay arc, he really killed that role. I think I also disliked the choice of Dinklage, due to the opposite of him being too good looking for Tyrion, but I guess he did so good in the first episode that I didn't care because I don't remember questioning him after that.

Sadly, I thought Euron's casting was perfect, but that ended up bust... though I can't blame the actor for that as it was more on the material he was given...

They were male and female, so they couldn't have been identical. But I guess you mean them looking more similar than they did, which I can sort of see. Show Cersei might have been a bit more likable, but I felt like book Cersei was definitely easier to understand. You just miss too much without her inner monologue and D&D's whitewashing of her character in general.

I think the too good-looking trend didn't just happen with Tyrion, it also happened with Brienne. It seemed like they moved away from the disfigurement he endured for practical reasons. Doing prosthesis for a missing nose would probably be annoying.

Euron didn't match visually for me, but that was obviously the least of the issues I had with him lol

Rikudou King · May 10, 2021

xi0 said:
They were male and female, so they couldn't have been identical. But I guess you mean them looking more similar than they did, which I can sort of see. Show Cersei might have been a bit more likable, but I felt like book Cersei was definitely easier to understand. You just miss too much without her inner monologue and D&D's whitewashing of her character in general.

I think the too good-looking trend didn't just happen with Tyrion, it also happened with Brienne. It seemed like they moved away from the disfigurement he endured for practical reasons. Doing prosthesis for a missing nose would probably be annoying.

Euron didn't match visually for me, but that was obviously the least of the issues I had with him lol

Yeah, that's what I meant. While I like sympathetic Cersei, I wouldn't have minded paranoid Cersei. I think it could have been pulled off even without the inner monologue, but that would have required them showing her being actually evil.

True, though I wasn't that invested in Brienne's story during my first read through, so I really didn't care about the casting choice. And a missing nose might have been too much, but there could have been something more then just a small scar.

Maybe because I like the actor, but I think had they put some effort in, he could have pulled it off easily. But I am bias due to Euron being one of my favor characters.

xi0 · May 10, 2021

Rikudou King said:
Yeah, that's what I meant. While I like sympathetic Cersei, I wouldn't have minded paranoid Cersei. I think it could have been pulled off even without the inner monologue, but that would have required them showing her being actually evil.

True, though I wasn't that invested in Brienne's story during my first read through, so I really didn't care about the casting choice. And a missing nose might have been too much, but there could have been something more then just a small scar.

Maybe because I like the actor, but I think had they put some effort in, he could have pulled it off easily. But I am bias due to Euron being one of my favor characters.

Blowing up the Sept of Baelor wasn't enough? :heh

But I get what you mean. D&D had some sort of hard-on for the actress and didn't give her the kind of plot points the character needed to really, truly be Cersei Lannister. My theory is that they were too influenced by her own thoughts on the role, as evidence by her interviews. When she cheated on Jaime it was with a cousin so they explained it away as him being a stand-in, when in the books it was a whole host of people.

I think the actor could have worked. He sort of has that maniacal thing going on, but the characterization on the show was that plus machismo, when book Euron was a bit more understated + debonair, as well as him having this hidden menace that his family only really seems to notice. It's as close to "pure evil" as the series gets.

Rikudou King · May 10, 2021

xi0 said:
Blowing up the Sept of Baelor wasn't enough? But I get what you mean. D&D had some sort of hard-on for the actress and didn't give her the kind of plot points the character needed to really, truly be Cersei Lannister. My theory is that they were too influenced by her own thoughts on the role, as evidence by her interviews. When she cheated on Jaime it was with a cousin so they explained it away as him being a stand-in, when in the books it was a whole host of people.

I think the actor could have worked. He sort of has that maniacal thing going on, but the characterization on the show was that plus machismo, when book Euron was a bit more understated + debonair, as well as him having this hidden menace that his family only really seems to notice. It's as close to "pure evil" as the series gets.

Does it really count if no one else cares and it's never referenced again? In a universe where the smallest action by a person can have massive repercussions, no reaction to what was basically a major terrorist action was just jarring. And yeah, I agree. Wasn't that also the case with the actress who played Ellaria? They liked her so much they shifted the plot for her?

Yeah, that's true. The charming and manipulative personality of his is what makes him one of my favorite characters. Also doesn't hurt that he's trying to become an eldritch god abomination. Another thing the show dropped, the whole returning of magic.

xi0 · May 11, 2021

Rikudou King said:
Does it really count if no one else cares and it's never referenced again? In a universe where the smallest action by a person can have massive repercussions, no reaction to what was basically a major terrorist action was just jarring. And yeah, I agree. Wasn't that also the case with the actress who played Ellaria? They liked her so much they shifted the plot for her?

Yeah, that's true. The charming and manipulative personality of his is what makes him one of my favorite characters. Also doesn't hurt that he's trying to become an eldritch god abomination. Another thing the show dropped, the whole returning of magic.

Ah, well, I only really half-heartedly mentioned it but touche I guess lol

Yeah but I think that was likely D&D's idea, rather than her persuading them to reinvent her. But who knows, they probably wrote the Dorne plot while baked out of their minds anyway.