Quarterfinal God Serena vs Natsu Dragneel

[Holt]

But the the issue is, no one here would likely agree on that power level. E.g, some say Natsu's DF multiplies his power by 3x, but others say that only applied to pre-pre ts Natsu or that if DF is 3x, then FDKM might already be something like 2.5x already (only a 0.5x difference).

Indeed but then that's still something that happens with other characters as well.
Anyway, even 0.5 can be a big difference especially if we consider FDKM to be around Serena's level (higher for some, lower for others but still roughly the same tier). I don't consider Non-igneel powered FDKM to be that close to DF though.

 

[Char]

Not quite actually. Speculation is allowed provided it's reasonable. The restrictions in place was that characters who haven't shown access to advanced modes don't have them. So in this case, though we can consider DF Natsu (since he's shown it before and did so at will the last time), we can't do the same for Serena since he hasn't shown the ability (despite being a DS). If we had to solely stick to what we've seen, then we'd have very little to go on or we'd have to consider abilities at their last shown power level even though the characters have grown stronger and thus so will their abilities.

Basically, we can consider prior abilities and scale them to the current power level of the characters to determine how powerful such abilities plausibly are if used.

OK, I get your point. Like, if before the current arc, DF made Natsu 3x stronger, then it should make him 3x stronger now as well. However, a mage as experienced as GS and who didn't show (because he didn't need to) his full potential should be considered as having DF.

On another note, Natsu has only been able to use DF either when he ate some very special element or when he was emotionally pushed to very important levels. Maybe in a 1 vs 1 battle, God Serena "doesn't do" anything that triggers his DF, in the event he hasn't mastered it to use it whenever he wants... do you get my point? If Lucy was there and she gets badly hurt or killed by GS, then DF is a factor; but if it's a purely 1 vs 1, since we don't know whether Natsu has mastered accessing DF, we cannot speculate if it is a factor in this battle.

 

[Crimson Ice]

The scale of Natsu's attack is larger, the AoE is larger, but that's because he needed to cover that entire area, and we could "consider" it was a full power attack; whereas GS was only fighting 4 opponents so he might've probably wanted to focus on damage not on AoE.

Again, AoE shouldn't be what counts the most. I'm positive GS could cover that AoE if he wanted to (he's not a Spriggan 12 for no reason), but he didn't need to.

I'd seriously like to witness whether Natsu's roar could actually KO the 3 GoI + Jura... in my humblest opinion, no, it wouldn't be that easy. You claim "one demolition fist beat a Spriggan"; well, yes, but that Spriggan would've fodderized Natsu hadn't Lucy and Happy been there. Let's remember that they won just because Lucy's intellect and Happy preventing him from using his space magic again; and his beating was a conjunction of Makarov's punch + Natsu's attack. So the fact they defeated Jacob, who is a Spriggan, doesn't necessarily imply that his punch would defeat the three GoI+Jura because Jacob might've had low durability but very high MP and abilities. As a matter of fact it makes sense, since his type of magic consists of "not getting hurt", since he can disappear, he mustn't have trained his durability a lot.

When it comes to the subject of maturity, age and prime, I understand it's a highly subjective topic. But let's be honest, power scales in this manga are also absolutely subjective and sometimes arbitrary and senseless... Particularly after timeskips.



Relatively speaking, how can his progression be such that in one year he managed to become superior to the strongest mages in his continent? And it is not only Natsu, Erza and Gray have also managed to grow during this year to extents that seem ridiculous. For example, following that logic, Erza should be above the GoI + Jura since she gave Ajeel a much better fight than the GoI + Jura gave to GS. So, Erza, who was below Jura a year ago, is now stronger than the GoI?

It's much more sound to infer that GS is simply above Ajeel, and that Erza is not superior to the GoI, because such a progression wouldn't make sense. Because your "Natsu's growth rate" also applies to Erza and Gray. I know he was the one who progressed the most, but still, since some people tend to think that Gray is on par with him because of "portrayal", and Erza should be around there too... It simply makes no sense.

Because he has a higher growth rate, it's simple FT, in general, have displayed their vastly superior growth rate in the GMG arc. Erza and Gray......Who would guessed the other main characters had high growth rates as well (Sarcasm). Erza probably is above the GoI+Jura the same way Laxus was barely stronger than Jura a year ago and now he could stomp him.

It's not more sound I'm surprised how most of you don't know about high growth rates, using your logic Current Wendy should be below chapter 1 Natsu.

 

[Char]

Because he has a higher growth rate, it's simple FT, in general, have displayed their vastly superior growth rate in the GMG arc. Erza and Gray......Who would guessed the other main characters had high growth rates as well (Sarcasm). Erza probably is above the GoI+Jura the same way Laxus was barely stronger than Jura a year ago and now he could stomp him.

It's not more sound I'm surprised how most of you don't know about high growth rates, using your logic Current Wendy should be below chapter 1 Natsu.

To begin with, it would be fair to infer that Natsu's got a vast growth rate if compared to other characters, even the mightiest and most powerful wizard in Ishgar (thus being the mage in Ishgar with the highest growth rate in Ishgar and possibly in the world). Of course, we could attribute it to the fact he is not a human being but a demon from Zeref, and not just "a" demon, but his strongest demon.

But how do you account for Erza's or Gray's growth? I mean, both of them were below Jura back in the GMG, and they are now more powerful than FOUR Juras LOL (or 4X GMG Laxus for that matter, and that if we consider the GoI at Jura's/GMGLaxus same level). Just think of their growth rate. It's more than exponential. I mean, according to the timeline, FT begins in July, x784 and before the first timeskip, 6 months happen (Tenroujima). It is clear that Tenroujima Natsu, Gray, or Erza were much more powerful than beginning-of-series Natsu, Gray or Erza. In 6 months, they powered up quite a lot, right. Then, in april x791 they're back in the game, and by August x791 (and after 2nd origin awakening) they have powered up quite a lot indeed. Their growth ratio (all of them's) during that first natural year was actually good. Then, from x791 to x792, their growth ratio (all of them's xD) happens to be 10x the previous year's? What did they do? How can it be? They're human and they happen to reach Ishgar's mightiest mage in just a year? How is that credible at all? LOL

Sorry but some things are simply nonsense and this is one of them. I mean, I was disappointed enough when I came to know that the Gods of Ishgar, who had been hyped for all they're worth, happened to be at the level of Jura (who, in turn, doesn't seem to have improved at all from his GMG version). This makes the so-hyped GoI and Jura, the "most powerful human being" (and a tank at the level of GMG Laxus), sheer fodders in the Alvarez arc. However, I refuse to believe that Mashima was inconsistant enough so as to make God Serena weaker than base Natsu, the same Natsu that a year ago was below Jura and Laxus. I actually believe GS to be stronger than FDKM Natsu, since not only facts can be taken into account in this tournament but also guesses and assumptions.

My guess is that God Serena didn't show one bit of what he's capable of, and still managed to fodderize some people who were either fodder already -I'm referring to the GoI here- (even after being hyped by Trollshima), or were extremely strong (which would prove that God Serena is simply a monster well above the likes of Ajeel- and Natsu). The former assumes that Natsu >>> God Serena >> GoI+Jura, the latter assumes that God Serena >>>> GoI+Jura >=, > or even >> Natsu. That's for you to decide.

Btw, I believe GMG/Tartaros base Wendy to be below chapter 1 Natsu. However, Alvarez base Wendy should be vastly superior since, well, power scales seem to have escalated by at least 1000%, to extents where I have seen people claim that current Wendy is superior to Jura (loooool), although, well, again, it kind of would make sense if you consider the nonsensical "growth rate" and increase in power scale that this arc has brought about.

All in all, I still believe God Serena to be superior to Natsu. Let's see if Natsu vs August makes me change my mind.

 

[Crimson Ice]

So, it would be fair to infer that Natsu's got a vast growth rate if compared to other characters, even the mightiest and most powerful wizard in Ishgar (thus being the mage in Ishgar with the highest growth rate in Ishgar and possibly in the world). Of course, we could attribute it to the fact he is not a human being but a demon from Zeref, and not just "a" demon, but his strongest demon.

But how do you account for Erza's or Gray's growth? I mean, both of them were below Jura back in the GMG, and they are now more powerful than FOUR Juras LOL (or 4X GMG Laxus for that matter, and that if we consider the GoI at Jura's/GMGLaxus same level). They're human and they happen to reach Ishgar's mightiest mage in just a year? How is that credible at all? LOL

Sorry but some things are simply nonsense and this is one of them. I mean, I was disappointed enough when I came to know that the Gods of Ishgar, who had been hyped for all they're worth, happened to be at the level of Jura (who, in turn, doesn't seem to have improved at all from his GMG version). This makes the so-hyped GoI and Jura, the "most powerful human being" and a tank at the level of GMG Laxus, sheer fodders in the Alvarez arc. However, I refuse to believe that Mashima was inconsistant enough so as to make God Serena weaker than base Natsu, the same Natsu that a year ago was below Jura and Laxus. I actually believe him stronger than FDKM Natsu, since not only facts can be taken into account in this tournament but also guesses and assumptions.

My guess is that God Serena didn't show one bit of what he's capable of, and still managed to fodderize some people who were either fodder already (even after being hyped by Trollshima), or were extremely strong (proving that God Serena is simply a monster well above the likes of Ajeel). That's for you to decide.

Btw, I believe GMG/Tartaros base Wendy to be below chapter 1 Natsu. However, Alvarez base Wendy should be vastly superior since, well, power scales seem to have escalated by at least 1000%.

Being a demon has nothing to do with his growth rate and yes Natsu has an insane growth rate seeing how he and most of the main cast will end up as the strongest if not some of the strongest characters in the series at a young age (heck some of them are already).

HAHAHAHA. Do you not know Gray and Erza have growth rate comparable to Natsu hence why they've always relatively kept up with him and Erza has been stronger than him for a good chunk of the manga. Like I said most of FT has shown they have a superior growth rate to everyone else or everyone expect for the second origin group and maybe Laxus would have gotten stomped at the GMG. Are you that surprised the MAIN CAST grows at a faster pace than everyone else

Not it isn't nonsense if you had read a decent amount of shonen battle mangas you would know that is common for the main cast to grow at a faster pace compared to everyone else. The GoI are just all utter disappointments and the only one at or even near Spirggan tier was Serena, if you can't grasp the concept of the main characters having higher growth rates that's on you. Nobody has said that base Natsu is above Serena but FDKM Natsu is.


Serena showed a lot of what he was capable, heck he went overboard something he pointed out himself. Serena himself isn't significantly above any of his peers at all.


And I never said GMG Base Wendy is said current Wendy.

 

[Char]

Being a demon has nothing to do with his growth rate and yes Natsu has an insane growth rate seeing how he and most of the main cast will end up as the strongest if not some of the strongest characters in the series at a young age (heck some of them are already).

Well it might, might it not? Considering that growth rate must have some limitations imposed by the very human peaks, it would be natural that there's someone with a higher growth rate than another one, but not by such margins. I mean, I could reckon Natsu's growth rate > human with the second highest growth rate > third > fourth; but I can't acknowledge that Natsu's growth rate >>>>>>>>>>>>> human with second highest growth rate > third > fourth (which is basically what the manga is implying). Therefore I thought of attributing his absurd growth rate to the fact he is a demon.

The others are not justifiable. I mean, Ishgar is a continent and therefore it must have a LOT of mages. Use your logic. How can the three "humans" with the highest growth rate have been gathered in the same guild and unleashed their true potential in just a year, becoming more powerful than the most powerful wizards in his continent (and possibly in the world)? I mean, what are the odds? Please, tell me you understand it doesn't make much sense, the probability is lower than winning the lottery.

HAHAHAHA. Do you not know Gray and Erza have growth rate comparable to Natsu hence why they've always relatively kept up with him and Erza has been stronger than him for a good chunk of the manga.

Their growth was comparable and it was good and high but REASONABLE up to Alvarez (moreorless), when Natsu and Gray seemed to have reached or even surpassed Erza but the power scales still seemed reasonable. After Alvarez it's simply senseless that they have reached a level that puts them on the level or above Ishgar's mightiest mage and the most powerful mages in the world. If there was such a possible growth rate, there would always be someone superior to them, provided that they train. For example, all of the spriggans' seem to have potential on par with Natsu and all of them seem older... oh, well, whatever.

Like I said most of FT has shown they have a superior growth rate to everyone else or everyone expect for the second origin group and maybe Laxus would have gotten stomped at the GMG. Are you that surprised the MAIN CAST grows at a faster pace than everyone else

While second origin was plot to account for training that never happened, second origin awakening put them on par with those who had trained for some months, which is consistant and makes it reasonable. I mean, Erza didn't train, but her second origin was awakened, and she seemed on par with Mirajane who trained for a few months (and they had always been portrayed as being on par), they didn't escalate massively from that powerup and still they got more powerful within reasonable limits. Same goes for all those whose second origin was awakened/trained for a few months (=same result moreorless, Natsu>=Gajeel, Erza>=Mira, etc.)

Not it isn't nonsense if you had read a decent amount of shonen battle mangas you would know that is common for the main cast to grow at a faster pace compared to everyone else.

Just cut it. I've read enough shonen battle mangas. This is why I know when something makes sense and when something doesn't. It's not just a Fairy Tail thing, but Fairy Tail was keeping up pretty good until power scales messed up in that arc just to compensate the fact that their enemies were too powerful.

The GoI are just all utter disappointments

Agreed, but why? Same as always. Hype followed by fodderization.

and the only one at or even near Spirggan tier was Serena,

You probably meant up or above (implying Serena is a high tier Spriggan, which I strongly advocate).

if you can't grasp the concept of the main characters having higher growth rates that's on you.

Don't make it as though it's my problem, it's a problem who anyone rational enough can glimpse. Power scales have completely lost all sense of proportion during this latest arc. I still love FT, I still love the characters and I still love the fights, I'm just stating the obvious.

Serena showed a lot of what he was capable,

How are you so sure? He just showed 3 spells of his many, with low AoE (probably because of opponent-targeted, no need to cover large AoE). He wasn't even serious in his DS mode. Never went all out, never pushed to use all his power.

heck he went overboard something he pointed out himself. Serena himself isn't significantly above any of his peers at all.

But that is your opinion. Mine is that God Serena is well above many Spriggans and he didn't show all his might.

And I never said GMG Base Wendy is said current Wendy.

I know I was just being specific. Alvarez Wendy is above first chapter Natsu, and probably first shown Erza, and even first shown Makarov (lol)- No, I'm just kidding here, but understand my point; power scales have been too exponential in this arc.

 

[Solitrine]

Why is there talk about God Serena having Dragon Force? Only First and Third Generations have the ability, Serena is a Second Gen.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Well it might, might it not? Considering that growth rate must have some limitations imposed by the very human peaks, it would be natural that there's someone with a higher growth rate than another one, but not by such margins. I mean, I could reckon Natsu's growth rate > human with the second highest growth rate > third > fourth; but I can't acknowledge that Natsu's growth rate >>>>>>>>>>>>> human with second highest growth rate > third > fourth (which is basically what the manga is implying). Therefore I thought of attributing his absurd growth rate to the fact he is a demon.

The others are not justifiable. I mean, Ishgar is a continent and therefore it must have a LOT of mages. Use your logic. How can the three "humans" with the highest growth rate have been gathered in the same guild and unleashed their true potential in just a year, becoming more powerful than the most powerful wizards in his continent (and possibly in the world)? I mean, what are the odds? Please, tell me you understand it doesn't make much sense, the probability is lower than winning the lottery.



Their growth was comparable and it was good and high but REASONABLE up to Alvarez (moreorless), when Natsu and Gray seemed to have reached or even surpassed Erza but the power scales still seemed reasonable. After Alvarez it's simply senseless that they have reached a level that puts them on the level or above Ishgar's mightiest mage and the most powerful mages in the world. If there was such a possible growth rate, there would always be someone superior to them, provided that they train. For example, all of the spriggans' seem to have potential on par with Natsu and all of them seem older... oh, well, whatever.



While second origin was plot to account for training that never happened, second origin awakening put them on par with those who had trained for some months, which is consistant and makes it reasonable. I mean, Erza didn't train, but her second origin was awakened, and she seemed on par with Mirajane who trained for a few months (and they had always been portrayed as being on par), they didn't escalate massively from that powerup and still they got more powerful within reasonable limits. Same goes for all those whose second origin was awakened/trained for a few months (=same result moreorless, Natsu>=Gajeel, Erza>=Mira, etc.)



Just cut it. I've read enough shonen battle mangas. This is why I know when something makes sense and when something doesn't. It's not just a Fairy Tail thing, but Fairy Tail was keeping up pretty good until power scales messed up in that arc just to compensate the fact that their enemies were too powerful.



Agreed, but why? Same as always. Hype followed by fodderization.



You probably meant up or above (implying Serena is a high tier Spriggan, which I strongly advocate).



Don't make it as though it's my problem, it's a problem who anyone rational enough can glimpse. Power scales have completely lost all sense of proportion during this latest arc. I still love FT, I still love the characters and I still love the fights, I'm just stating the obvious.



How are you so sure? He just showed 3 spells of his many, with low AoE (probably because of opponent-targeted, no need to cover large AoE). He wasn't even serious in his DS mode. Never went all out, never pushed to use all his power.



But that is your opinion. Mine is that God Serena is well above many Spriggans and he didn't show all his might.



I know I was just being specific. Alvarez Wendy is above first chapter Natsu, and probably first shown Erza, and even first shown Makarov (lol)- No, I'm just kidding here, but understand my point; power scales have been too exponential in this arc.

Nothing has implied that being human has placed a cap on growth rate in the series nor does anything imply it's impossible to high a much higher growth rate than other. Face it Natsu is not only apart of the main cast but he is also the main male lead, his growth rate is going to be exceptional.


How can three humans with exceptional growth rate have gathered in one guild? Because the plot demanded it, the majority of strong Ishgar mages have always dawned from FT, at this point, you're refusing to accept something that has been made PERFECTLY CLEAR. I will repeat it once again the Grand Magic Mages drills this thought into our head, everyone from FT literally closes a 7-year gap in growth within the space of 3 months.


It's still reasonable now or did you think they wouldn't grow fast enough to put up a fight to the upcoming threat. Them being able to top Ishgar's top mages has been coming and it's not even surprising seeing how Fairy Tail since they start of the manga has always been one of or Ishagr's top guild. Just because there is the possibility people have really high growth rates doesn't mean a lot of people outside the MAIN CAST will have that type of growth rate. You really don't get the benefit of being a main character.

Second Origin put them on par with the guild mates who had trained for months and those guildmates had just overtaken a bunch of over people who had been training for 7 years. You're complaining Mira got a reasonable power up but she had surpassed most mages with a 7 year gap on her.....

If you read alot of battle mangas then this wouldn't be confusing at all.

It is your problem and it's a problem to anyone who can't grasp the concept of varying growth rates.

Serena showed half of his Dragon Slaying elements and even got carried away while doing so, the fact the spells had low AoE means nothing, attack potency is a thing you know.

Not really an opinion Hiro has drilled into our heads that the Spirggans, for the most part. are on the same general level.

 

[SirSamuel016]

Just to bring up restriction 4 in this tournament, Slayer Mages who have never shown advanced modes have no access to them. (Dragon Force, Devil Force etc.), so therefore God Serena doesn't have Dragon Force at his disposal.

As I've said previously, there is no way Serena can actually win this fight. His Sea King Dragon attack would be evaporated by the incredible heat given off by FDKM, and the Gale Dragon attack would be rendered useless in the same fashion. Serena's purgatory dragon attack would just be eaten by Natsu as its fire based, and even if Natsu didn't eat it he'd still resist it so it wouldn't be doing diddly squat to him. That leaves Serena with his Cavern Dragon attack, which Natsu can avoid by flying up like he did under Bluenote's gravity in the Reunion arc.

Now, for those who'd argue Serena can eat Natsu's fire, let me point out that Serena hasn't got any evidence of being able to eat elements, and that if he could eat them, I'd ask you why he didn't eat Jura's rockiron fist to power up his Cavern Dragon attack. Its clear from this that he can't eat elements, and by the same logic, being unable to eat elements means Serena could have no resistance to any elements either.

If I was to cut this into stats for people to look at, this is how it would fall:
Attack: Natsu > God Serena. (As Dragon Force is the final form for Dragon Force, I'd say its stronger than Flame Dragon King Mode and with sheer physical power it surpasses Serena).
Defense: Natsu >= God Serena. (Natsu's got better feats than Serena for defense)
Speed: Natsu > God Serena.
Versatility: God Serena > Natsu.
Intelligence: Natsu = God Serena.
Magic Power: God Serena > Natsu.

Looking at how those stats fall, even if Serena has more Magic Power, Natsu's attacks have a lot of potency and with him being faster than Serena, he can avoid the full brunt of Serena's attacks. Natsu also has Dragon Force, something that we haven't really talked about thus far. As the final stage of Dragon Slaying magic, I'd say it'd be stronger still than FDKM, and the sheer power from it would overwhelm Serena who has no way to match it. Looking at this, it really is an uphill battle for Serena as his known attacks that he can use are pretty much moot before Natsu, and without the ability to eat elements, there can be no other result than Natsu's victory.

 

[Tirl]

I'd ask you why he didn't eat Jura's rockiron fist to power up his Cavern Dragon attack

Bs he didnt need to power up his attack, he is much stronger than them and defeat them with some attacks. Why he should eat and power up??

Just to bring up restriction 4 in this tournament, Slayer Mages who have never shown advanced modes have no access to them

Natsu didnt show DF in Alvarez arc and you cant say that his DF stronger than any mode or mage - he didnt show DF now.

And why you think Serena cant eat elements? You need arguments? You are welcome, Natsu is DS - he eat fire, Gajeel is DS - he eat iron, Cobra is 2nd gen DS - he eat possion, Silver is DeS - he eat ice. What a fu.. with Serena??? Why he cant eat elements now? Racism?? Discrimination??

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 13, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 13, 2016 ---

Attack: Natsu > God Serena. (As Dragon Force is the final form for Dragon Force, I'd say its stronger than Flame Dragon King Mode and with sheer physical power it surpasses Serena).
Defense: Natsu >= God Serena. (Natsu's got better feats than Serena for defense)
Speed: Natsu > God Serena.
Versatility: God Serena > Natsu.
Intelligence: Natsu = God Serena.
Magic Power: God Serena > Natsu.

Attack: Natsu > God Serena.
Natsu defeat Jacob and God with strongest of his shown spells, Serena defeat 4 strong mages with some attacks (two of them have very high def)
Defense: Natsu >= God Serena.
Natsu didnt show any def, he has high stamina, but not def. Serena survive attacks of 4 strong mages.
Speed: Natsu > God Serena.
I cant say any thing bs Serena didnt use speed in his fight.
Versatility: God Serena > Natsu.
Intelligence: Natsu = God Serena.
I think Natsu is smarter.
Magic Power: God Serena > Natsu.
For now spriggans' MP on completely different lvl and Natsu didnt show any argue to put him on a spriggan lvl in MP.

 

[SirSamuel016]

Bs he didnt need to power up his attack, he is much stronger than them and defeat them with some attacks. Why he should eat and power up??


Natsu didnt show DF in Alvarez arc and you cant say that his DF stronger than any mode or mage - he didnt show DF now.

And why you think Serena cant eat elements? You need arguments? You are welcome, Natsu is DS - he eat fire, Gajeel is DS - he eat iron, Cobra is 2nd gen DS - he eat possion, Silver is DeS - he eat ice. What a fu.. with Serena??? Why he cant eat elements now? Racism?? Discrimination??

Even if he didn't need to eat it, he didn't shown any resistance to the attack either. What I'm saying is that if he was able to negate some/all of the damage from Jura's attack, he would've eaten it instead of taking the hit, but he didn't. Therefore, its reasonable to assume he can't eat elements due to that. And its not discrimination against Serena, I simply believe that with eight lacrima at his disposal to attack, there has to be some drawback to that, and the drawback from having eight lacrima would be not having the ability to solely use one to gain resistances and eat elements. Again, Serena hasn't shown he can eat elements so it shouldn't be assumed its a given that he can.

As for Natsu's Dragon Force, he's shown it in previous arcs so of course he can use it. Dragon Force is generally said to triple a Dragon Slayer's power at least, so if you consider that Base Natsu was able to destroy a war god with a Flame Dragon King's Demolition Fist and essentially one-shot a Spriggan with the same attack when he was serious (he was in FDKM for the Jacob bit but you get my point), then imagine that power being tripled. Its an incredible amount of power to be dishing out, and it'd overwhelm Serena easily.

 

[Tirl]

Dragon Force is generally said to triple a Dragon Slayer's power

Where you find it?? Sting and Rogue didnt power up even 2 times. And in just one moment when Natsu use his real DF he didnt power up in 3 times. It was before 2 times.
DF after eating etherion, ethernano air, antimagic iron, Jellals flame - it was not real power of DF, it was powered up by another force.

he was able to negate some/all of the damage from Jura's attack

Think how mages can negate damage from physic attack? They can dont take damage from hot\cold, mental, possion, but not physic attacks. Wendy take damage from any wind. Natsu take some damage from fire bs fire is wave of burning air. He can absorb heat, but not fire.
How any body can negate rock? Yeah, they may eat rock, but it doesnt mean that rock cant beat them. Ofc Jura can punch Serena with earth attacks

 

[SirSamuel016]

Attack: Natsu > God Serena.
Natsu defeat Jacob and God with strongest of his shown spells, Serena defeat 4 strong mages (two of them have very high def)
Defense: Natsu >= God Serena.
Natsu didnt show any def, he has high stamina, but not def. Serena survive attacks of 4 strong mages.
Speed: Natsu > God Serena.
I cant say any thing bs Serena didnt use speed in his fight.
Versatility: God Serena > Natsu.
Intelligence: Natsu = God Serena.
I think Natsu is smarter.
Magic Power: God Serena > Natsu.
For now spriggans' MP on completely different lvl and Natsu didnt show any argue to put him on a spriggan lvl in MP.

To call the FDK's Demolishing Fist Natsu's strongest move at this point is reasonable, but you have to remember that Jacob is far above any of the opponents Serena was fighting as Jacob is also a Spriggan, so thats a given. It should also be noted that we only saw Serena finish the gods off with some attacks, and not see the first part of the fight where he dropped them all before they got a second wind. That first part means that Serena used even more spells against the gods of ishgal, where as Natsu when serious defeated a Spriggan with one attack. No matter how you slice it, defeating a spriggan is still more impressive than defeating three featless "gods" of ishgal and jura.

As for the defensive argument, the Gods of Ishgal are featless when it comes to them being 'strong'. Warrod has previously said its just a title, and they couldn't hold a candle to their fellow God of Ishgal, Serena. Meanwhile, Natsu has previously been hit with attacks that could've killed him or at least really messed up his body, yet he's come out in one piece. Thats notable defence, and as Natsu hasn't really been up any opponent with incredible offence in the manga this arc other than maybe Zeref, whose magic he burned, its fair to say Natsu wouldn't be going down without a really big fight.

As for Speed, Natsu in Dragon Force has blitzed Jellal when he was using meteor, and against Mard Geer he moved very fast again, catching Mard off-guard with his speed and the power of his attacks. Natsu has these feats in speed, whereas Serena has no feats for Speed. Therefore, Natsu > God Serena in speed is the only logical conclusion to reach.

With greater attack power, defense, speed and as you say, intelligence, Natsu's got the upper hand here. I've already given my points on why Serena's attacks would do next to nothing against Natsu, so I believe I've made that much clear in my thought process here. At the end of the day, Magic Power isn't everything and thus Natsu would pull through with the win.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 13, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 13, 2016 ---

Where you find it?? Sting and Rogue didnt power up even 2 times. And in just one moment when Natsu use his real DF he didnt power up in 3 times. It was before 2 times.
DF after eating etherion, ethernano air, antimagic iron, Jellals flame - it was not real power of DF, it was powered up by another force.


Think how mages can negate damage from physic attack? They can dont take damage from hot\cold, mental, possion, but not physic attacks. Wendy take damage from any wind. Natsu take some damage from fire bs fire is wave of burning air. He can absorb heat, but not fire.
How any body can negate rock? Yeah, they may eat rock, but it doesnt mean that rock cant beat them. Ofc Jura can punch Serena with earth attacks

'Not real power of DF'- What does how Dragon Force was released have to do with it not being Dragon Force? At the end of the day, its still Dragon Force, and as you've seen its incredibly powerful. A few strikes from Dragon Force Gajeel was enough to kill Bradman. Say what you like, its still Dragon Force and there really is no denying that. Dragon Force still remains to be one of the strongest forms of magic we've seen in the manga.

'Natsu takes some damage from fire' - The only fire Natsu's taken damage from is from Zancrow's magic, which is God Slaying magic.
'Wendy takes damage from any wind' - The only wind mage she's fought against was Sherria, a God Slayer, so thats a poor comparison to make.
^ Those two points you made both revolve around the Dragon Slayers being the inferior slayer mage in the scheme of things, which is a poor comparison to make when you're trying to get your point of the slayer mages taking damage from regular flames / wind and not other slayer magic that is above them.
As for your point with God Serena, even if Jura's attacks mainly deal physical damage, if Serena can resist Natsu's flames thanks to the Purgatory Dragon lacrima like some claim, then Serena should still be resisting the rockiron attacks a bit thanks to the Cavern Dragon lacrima, but alas, he didn't resist it; he took the full brunt of the damage from the attack. This means that he isn't granted resistances to the elements he has lacrima for, and as I said earlier, it also means he's unable to eat them.

 

[Tirl]

A few strikes from Dragon Force Gajeel was enough to kill Bradman.

No. Gajeel may be over 9000 times stronger than his base mode - it doesnt make him able to do any damage to Brad. He absorb antimagic and change himself magic to may beat Brad. DF here is not argue, it was just some power up for nothing.

Ok, from all your points I can make it - Natsu cant it Purgatory flames bs it is not normal fire.

And my opinion about taking damage from element wasnt on fights with God Slayers. It was logica. How you can resist wind attack? Even if you can absord air, wind still be wave.

How you imaging resist to earth attack? Earth should be absorb by body? Or it should break and doesnt make any damage?

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 13, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 13, 2016 ---

its still Dragon Force, and as you've seen its incredibly powerful

No, I dont see it. I see power of etherion, I see power of ethernano (so it is what etherion made from), I see power of Jellal flame. And I even see power of LAXUS when he give his magic to Natsu. LFDM is not power up for now, its just a mode with 2nd magic. Power of Laxus still not exist in Natsu's body.

 

[SirSamuel016]

No. Gajeel may be over 9000 times stronger than his base mode - it doesnt make him able to do any damage to Brad. He absorb antimagic and change himself magic to may beat Brad. DF here is not argue, it was just some power up for nothing.

Ok, from all your points I can make it - Natsu cant it Purgatory flames bs it is not normal fire.

And my opinion about taking damage from element wasnt on fights with God Slayers. It was logica. How you can resist wind attack? Even if you can absord air, wind still be wave.

How you imaging resist to earth attack? Earth should be absorb by body? Or it should break and doesnt make any damage?

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 13, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 13, 2016 ---

No, I dont see it. I see power of etherion, I see power of ethernano (so it is what etherion made from), I see power of Jellal flame. And I even see power of LAXUS when he give his magic to Natsu. LFDM is not power up for now, its just a mode with 2nd magic. Power of Laxus still not exist in Natsu's body.

Well you really can't claim that as Natsu's shown he can eat God Slayer flames which are above his own Dragon Flames, and as Purgatory Flames are still essentially Dragon Flames, Natsu can eat them because he's eaten the flames of an actual Dragon (Atlas Flame), so that argument is moot.

Your points with elemental damage to the dragon slayers both were only applicable when they fought with God Slayers of the respective element, so your argument is invalid when it comes to the Dragon Slayers being damaged by their own element outside of God Slayers. A wind attack would be resisted by Wendy unless it was a God Slayer attack, and Wendy could just eat the wind attack as well so she has that route of getting out of taking damage that would be resisted. The same goes for Natsu and fire attacks, he can take the attacks head on and take damage that would be resisted or he can eat them and take no damage at all. With what we saw from Serena, he didn't resist the attack and he didn't eat the attacks to reduce the damage taken, so its becoming increasingly apparent here through comparisons that Serena can't eat elements and that he doesn't get resistances from them.

What does Laxus have to do with Dragon Force? And how can you say Lightning-Flame Dragon Mode wasn't a power-up? Natsu's offensive capabilities were increased when he used it, meaning he had more power, i.e a power-up. I don't get the point of your 'power of laxus' line as Natsu has shown he can now produce lightning (like he did in the GMG and Tartarus) just like Gajeel being able to produce Shadow (in Tartarus). Its part of their own power now, and allows them to attack with more power.

You're literally grasping at straws here, and honestly you even said that Natsu would win with your first post in the thread, so why are you resisting it? I, and other users, have all put out very valid points on why Natsu would beat Serena, and you even have the same opinion that he would win, so I don't get why you're trying to point out little things that have no real effect on this fight. Natsu negates two of Serena's four known elements, can avoid Serena's cavern dragon attacks and can eat Serena's purgatory dragon attacks. Therefore there is no way Serena can win the fight when even the sheer heat from FDKM would put Serena in a lot of discomfort and pain, leaving him vulnerable to be attacked. Considering that Dragon Force, something that Natsu can use, is the strongest phase of Dragon Slayer magic and would therefore be Natsu's strongest mode, God Serena really is at a loss when faced with that kind of destructive power.

 

[GokuSSJG]

Why is there talk about God Serena having Dragon Force? Only First and Second Generations have the ability, Serena is a Third Gen.

we don't know if Second Gen can use DF or not although it would be awesome to see Laxus and Cobra going DF. God Serena doesn't( nor he wil shot it cause he is dead) have DF.

 

[Stormsfury]

Fair enough, the god flames are different in some sense. Though why ask for facts when you have so little to go off of with Serena? Let me ask you this, do you believe that any version if Natsu could eat any form of flames? Even a fire dragons roar? That's much. There should only be a certain amount one could eat depending on their own level and circumstance (ie Serena not eating Juras rock, Gray not eating Urs Ice, Sherria not eating Wendys wind etc.....). Its the fact you want, but it holds just as much (if not more) weight then the argument that Serena can eat any level of fire (highly unlikely).

I know for a fact that any flame (other than God Slayers) have been eaten by Natsu, he jumped on Atlas flame during the Eclipse and straight up started eating the Hellflame, because it wasn't God Slayer flames. If you can provide evidence that a dragon slayer cannot eat high level flames then I'll give this to you.

 

[SirSamuel016]

we don't know if Second Gen can use DF or not although it would be awesome to see Laxus and Cobra going DF. God Serena doesn't( nor he wil shot it cause he is dead) have DF.

Going from Crunchyroll's Translations of Chapter 411 when Natsu fought Mard Geer, Mard says "This is Dragon Force?!" to which Natsu replies "I learnt it from Igneel!", implying Dragon Force is something that is taught/inherited. The mangapanda translation of the same page has it has being 'inherited from Igneel', thus making it seem that it needs to be taught/inherited directly from a Dragon. Here's the crunchyroll page:

Spoiler: Natsu was taught Dragon Force (from Crunchyroll's FT 411)

 

[GokuSSJG]

Going from Crunchyroll's Translations of Chapter 411 when Natsu fought Mard Geer, Mard says "This is Dragon Force?!" to which Natsu replies "I learnt it from Igneel!", implying Dragon Force is something that is taught/inherited. The mangapanda translation of the same page has it has being 'inherited from Igneel', thus making it seem that it needs to be taught/inherited directly from a Dragon. Here's the crunchyroll page:

Spoiler: Natsu was taught Dragon Force (from Crunchyroll's FT 411)

hm good point although its funny that he never mentioned that ever nor Wendy nor Gajeel.

kinda sad that Laxus and Cobra won't go DF although I hope that Hiro can pull something that they can. maybe because of their real DRAGON lacrima. you never know. they are still needed to fight Acnologia.

 

[Tirl]

so why are you resisting it?

I said Natsu win in manga world bs he has main character stamina, but in real world he has not a chance. And even I said "Natsu win" it doesnt mean that I cant argue for another reason. Now it is Natsu and DS power.

Its part of their own power now, and allows them to attack with more power.

They can use lightning\shadow but it doesnt bring them POWER, its just ability. Like Makarov can use many magic, any wizzard can use any magic if he learn it. It doesnt mean that they are stronger, its just are different ability. Look on my vision:
Natsu have 10000 MP
In base mode he use 1 MP for fist, 5 MP for roar and 50 mp for DS technique.
In LF mode he can use lightning and fire. 2-10-100 mp.
In FDKM he increase consuming of MP - 10-50-500 mp.
In DF - 100-500-5000.

As you can see his power doesnt increase, he increase consuming MP. But for us - Natsu in DF is faster spend his MP and faster emptied. In battle with mage with the same magic (like Serena) MP is determinant. And some stamina (consuming MP for block damage, but it is not def).

For Serena:
MP - 20000
he still use the same attack like Natsu (1-5-50), but he can use 2 times stronger attacks without any modes. And have more MP in this fight it is definitely victory.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 13, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 13, 2016 ---

Going from Crunchyroll's Translations of Chapter 411 when Natsu fought Mard Geer, Mard says "This is Dragon Force?!" to which Natsu replies "I learnt it from Igneel!", implying Dragon Force is something that is taught/inherited. The mangapanda translation of the same page has it has being 'inherited from Igneel', thus making it seem that it needs to be taught/inherited directly from a Dragon. Here's the crunchyroll page:

Spoiler: Natsu was taught Dragon Force (from Crunchyroll's FT 411)

In first Natsu use DF after eating etherion. Without any Igneel))

And as I said before - dragon lacrima has more same power of dragon than first gen bs dragons in first gen hold their "dragon" power and without dragons souls first gen lost their true dragon power. They still strong like dragons but it is not the dragons same power. Its just magic. And 2nd gen still have dragon lacrima with dragon power in them.