Quarterfinal God Serena vs Natsu Dragneel

[Solitrine]

@Char

My bad, I got the 2nd and 3rd generations the wrong way around. What I mean is that Serena is a 2nd Gen so he doesn't have access to Dragon Force.

 

[SirSamuel016]

It's more sound to assume he cannot enter at will until he proves otherwise. So far, entering DF at will is yet another feat, one that Natsu didn't show back in Tartaros, one which hasn't still shown now in Alvarez. In a 1 vs 1 fight, Tartaros Natsu couldn't enter DF because he needs that emotional trigger (someone needs to get involved in the battle and then badly hurt). So I'm going to assume Alvarez Natsu cannot enter it at will as well, until he proves otherwise.



Let's agree to disagree then :P

Again, Natsu has access to Dragon Force in this tournament as per Restriction 8 in this Tournament, plus needing a feat of entering it in this current arc to say he can will it is just asking for it to be re-affirmed because he's already willed it to activate in Tartarus. With his training over the year and him already being able to activate it at will before the training, there is no reasonable argument for why he shouldn't be able to will it to activate it when he's done it in previous arcs.

With access to Dragon Force (the strongest 'mode' for a Dragon Slayer), Natsu wins this fight. I've already brought up the Serena not being able to eat elements or have resistances to them in my previous posts, and with Natsu having the power to deal a frack tonne of damage to a Spriggan who had barely taken any damage before, and that one attack taking the Spriggan out, Natsu has insane attack power in FDKM, and if Dragon Force is even stronger than that, which it could well be, imagine the damage Serena would take. It'd be immense, even if he had resistance to the attacks (which I doubt he does, see my previous posts why), and he wouldn't stand up to it for long, even less than facing FDKM Natsu. I thinks its clear that Natsu would win this fight.

 

[Char]

Again, Natsu has access to Dragon Force in this tournament as per Restriction 8 in this Tournament, plus needing a feat of entering it in this current arc to say he can will it is just asking for it to be re-affirmed because he's already willed it to activate in Tartarus.

It doesn't work the way you are making it work. He couldn't activate it at will in Tartaros, nor has he shown such ability in the current arc.

If he happened to have access to it, multiplying his base powers by three, then I could agree that he'd beat a non-DF God Serena.

But again, the argument of Serena not being able to eat elements is your personal opinion and is nonsense to me, since DS of all generations have proved to be capable of eating elements. As for DF, since no 2nd gen DS has entered DF, I'm willing to accept that he cannot access that mode.

 

[Holt]

Global Moderator Notice:
To put this argument about Dragon Force to rest, the rules are explicitly clear on this. It was advised that everyone willing to participate should read through theses rules. According to the rules, Natsu has access to DF as it is an ability he has shown before. Furthermore, any emotional/psychologically barrier preventing any character from fully utilizing every skill in their repertoire is negated. The argument here is that Natsu needs an emotional trigger to use DF. Whether or not that is accurate, the other rule automatically removes this limitation.
The rules were carefully considered and were put in place to avoid complications like these which potentially derail the threads.
However, if any point is brought up regarding said rules, we'll revaluate the rules and make changes for the following round if necessary. For this round though, the rules are clear:
Natsu has access to Dragon Force while Serena does not.
Any further opinions or suggestions to amend this rule goes in the hangout and will be considered. No further posts on this topic will be allowed in this thread. ~ Holt

 

[Char]

In that case, current DF Natsu, who still is a mistery, wins mid-difficulty at most.

 

[BluePegasus]

Wait what? Natsu is allowed to use DF while he can't use it on his own will? Then why was it allowed to say that Macro had limitations while this was NEVER stated in the manga? This seems pretty biased and really unfair to me.

Since Natsu can't access DF at his own will, I'm still excluding it in this fight. Not that it matters, God Serena will just eat every attack Natsu uses against him.

 

[SirSamuel016]

Wait what? Natsu is allowed to use DF while he can't use it on his own will? Then why was it allowed to say that Macro had limitations while this was NEVER stated in the manga? This seems pretty biased and really unfair to me.

Since Natsu can't access DF at his own will, I'm still excluding it in this fight. Not that it matters, God Serena will just eat every attack Natsu uses against him.

Natsu willed it in Tartarus, and as @Holt said, he can use it in the tournament, so there's no point in getting upset about it. Plus, Mira isn't even in this fight so I don't get how she's applicable to this discussion.

I've made the argument before that Serena can't eat elements. He hasn't got resistances to the elements he wields nor can he eat them, as if he could, he would've eaten Jura's attacks. And as I've also pointed out before, Natsu render's God Serena's attacks useless by avoiding the Cavern Dragon attacks by shooting up using flames at his legs, he can eat the purgatory dragon flames, he can evaporate the Sea King Dragon attacks and dispel the Gale Dragon attacks the same way he got rid of Erigor's storm mail in that fight. So given that, I don't see how God Serena can actually beat Natsu when he's at such a loss, and a few FDK's Demolition Fists from Natsu in FDKM would be enough to beat him from the physical force, not counting the actual flame damage as well, and Dragon Force just increases that attack power even more. There is no way Serena can legitimately win this fight.

 

[Takuan]

I'm having a lot of trouble believing Natsu could beat Serena without DF. I pretty much agreed with every @Char 's points above.
I also agree with @BluePegasus, it is actually a bit unfair to allow Natsu to use DF when people assumed limitations on Mira (and that's me talking, i was acually part of the people willing to limit the Macro thing). Gotta be fair with every fighter, i don't agree with Natsu having DF since he never showed that he could activate it at will.

But i guess rules are rules, can't do anything but accept them as they are.
Thus i'm going to vote for Natsu, which.. Doesn't feel too right in my eyes but i will

 

[Stormsfury]

I don't care about the DF argument...... if you can bring me proof that Natsu's DF flames can affect Serena and proof that those flames cannot be consumed by Serena then Natsu takes this.
Next thing you know people are going to be saying he can just punch him out with physical attacks.

 

[AstonishingSpiderMan]

I'm having a lot of trouble believing Natsu could beat Serena without DF. I pretty much agreed with every @Char 's points above.
I also agree with @BluePegasus, it is actually a bit unfair to allow Natsu to use DF when people assumed limitations on Mira (and that's me talking, i was acually part of the people willing to limit the Macro thing). Gotta be fair with every fighter, i don't agree with Natsu having DF since he never showed that he could activate it at will.

But i guess rules are rules, can't do anything but accept them as they are.
Thus i'm going to vote for Natsu, which.. Doesn't feel too right in my eyes but i will

If Natsu can activate FDKM at will, and Wendy could activate DF at will which would be weaker, what makes you think Natsu couldn't?

I don't care about the DF argument...... if you can bring me proof that Natsu's DF flames can affect Serena and proof that those flames cannot be consumed by Serena then Natsu takes this.
Next thing you know people are going to be saying he can just punch him out with physical attacks.

Can you bring me proof that his flames would not affect serena? That serena could consume magic? That his other 4 lacrima were defined. Can you show me where Serena suddenly because a bad as hand to hand fighter.

 

[SirSamuel016]

I don't care about the DF argument...... if you can bring me proof that Natsu's DF flames can affect Serena and proof that those flames cannot be consumed by Serena then Natsu takes this.
Next thing you know people are going to be saying he can just punch him out with physical attacks.

Well there's no proof that Serena can eat elements as well, as he could've/would've eaten Jura's rockiron fists if he were able to eat elements. But if you consider that there is a lot of force behind attacks like Natsu's Flame Dragon King's Demolition Force, if he hit Serena around enough he could drop him. I've made the point that Serena's attacks are rendered useless in my previous posts so I won't repeat them here, so at the end of the day if it comes down to the pure physicality of their moves, Natsu's shown more physical moves that could get the job done, especially in Dragon Force where he moves at a high speed, which would add velocity to his attacks and thus the attacks would do more damage.

 

[Shoutmon]

If Natsu has DF then he low-diffs, why?

Next thing you know people are going to be saying he can just punch him out with physical attacks.

Because exactly this. DF greatly increases Natsu's physical attributes, such as strength and speed, so him blitzing at beating the shit out of Serena with his bare hands is plausable, heck if he dragonizes to the point of having claws, I can see him just ripping a hole through Serena like Acnologia did.

 

[Takuan]

If Natsu can activate FDKM at will, and Wendy could activate DF at will which would be weaker, what makes you think Natsu couldn't?

He's never been showed capable of that.
We caan assume he can activate DF at will, i would agree to assume that. Completely.
But if the tournament is based on feats, as it has been stated countless times... Then Natsu never showed that feat. Everytime he activated DF it was thanks to an external source (Etherious, Jellal's flame, or an emotional trigger).
Wendy is capable of activating DF at will, she's shown that. Natsu? He might be, but we don't know. Therefore it shouldn't be taken into consideration in the tournament.


EDIT: i'm not going to continue arguing about that. I accepted the rules, so as much as i disagree with the application of this particular rule, i accept it. Natsu can activate DF at will, alright. No point in arguing

 

[Brandish μ]

I'm not counting DF personally because I don't know exactly how strong it is. Imo, when he does show it, there wouldn't be anyone in this tournament who could stop him.

I'm leaning towards Natsu. Demolishing Strike packs enough power to defeat Jacob. I'm still cognizant of Serena's resistance, but with an attack like Demolishing Strike it will still cause significant damage to Serena. It's not like Natsu can only do one either, I mean he strung together FD Talons, FD Iron Fist and FDK roar in fairly quick succession; so I think Natsu can at least do 2 FDK attacks in a row.

Plus, Serena's offence in my view isn't on par with Natsu's base attacks. Though I would say Serena's durability would be higher.

 

[Stormsfury]

If Natsu can activate FDKM at will, and Wendy could activate DF at will which would be weaker, what makes you think Natsu couldn't?



Can you bring me proof that his flames would not affect serena? That serena could consume magic? That his other 4 lacrima were defined. Can you show me where Serena suddenly because a bad as hand to hand fighter.

Well there's no proof that Serena can eat elements as well, as he could've/would've eaten Jura's rockiron fists if he were able to eat elements. But if you consider that there is a lot of force behind attacks like Natsu's Flame Dragon King's Demolition Force, if he hit Serena around enough he could drop him. I've made the point that Serena's attacks are rendered useless in my previous posts so I won't repeat them here, so at the end of the day if it comes down to the pure physicality of their moves, Natsu's shown more physical moves that could get the job done, especially in Dragon Force where he moves at a high speed, which would add velocity to his attacks and thus the attacks would do more damage.

The fact that he's a freaking dragonslayer is the proof........ what the hell are you guys trying to say? He's a dragonslayer so he can eat the elements of his attributes......... it's a freaking rule, we've seen it from just about every dragonslayer from ever generation. Serena has fire dragonslaying magic, so he can eat freaking fire, it's that simple. Geez.

If Natsu has DF then he low-diffs, why?


Because exactly this. DF greatly increases Natsu's physical attributes, such as strength and speed, so him blitzing at beating the shit out of Serena with his bare hands is plausable, heck if he dragonizes to the point of having claws, I can see him just ripping a hole through Serena like Acnologia did.

And again here we have people assuming he can dragonize and bring out claws, I'm going to say this for about the 3rd time, use known facts. You think Serena can't endure any physical attacks or something? He was taken out by the most powerful being in the verse and so now you think Natsu can low diff him?...... ROFL! The favouritism is real. Let me spin the question the other way round then, so far, Serena has tanked attacks from Jura and Wolfhiem, both very powerful wizards, he endured and overpowered Warrod and Hyberion, also both powerful wizards. What has Natsu tanked and endured during this arc (discounting IgNatsu because that's no longer a thing)? Serena's tanking feats are better than Natsu's, all you're argument has now boiled down to is that Natsu can low diff Serena by punching him, when Serena should be able to hurt Natsu just as much.

 

[GokuSSJG]

no reason to continue this tournament. DF Natsu would mop the floor with Laxus (without Fairy Law), Jellal and pretty much everyone except Acnologia and probably August and Irene.

DF Natsu low diffs God Serena.

 

[SirSamuel016]

The fact that he's a freaking dragonslayer is the proof........ what the hell are you guys trying to say? He's a dragonslayer so he can eat the elements of his attributes......... it's a freaking rule, we've seen it from just about every dragonslayer from ever generation. Serena has fire dragonslaying magic, so he can eat freaking fire, it's that simple. Geez.

And again here we have people assuming he can dragonize and bring out claws, I'm going to say this for about the 3rd time, use known facts. You think Serena can't endure any physical attacks or something? He was taken out by the most powerful being in the verse and so now you think Natsu can low diff him?...... ROFL! The favouritism is real. Let me spin the question the other way round then, so far, Serena has tanked attacks from Jura and Wolfhiem, both very powerful wizards, he endured and overpowered Warrod and Hyberion, also both powerful wizards. What has Natsu tanked and endured during this arc (discounting IgNatsu because that's no longer a thing)? Serena's tanking feats are better than Natsu's, all you're argument has now boiled down to is that Natsu can low diff Serena by punching him, when Serena should be able to hurt Natsu just as much.

Being a Dragon Slayer doesn't make it a given that they can eat the element(s) that they use. Laxus has never shown he can eat elements either, he's only shown a resistance to them. Serena having eight lacrima inside him means that he's going to have some shortcoming somewhere, and I believe that his shortcoming(s) are not being able to eat the elements of the lacrima and have resistances to those elements. Unlike the other slayers, he isn't proficient with a sole element, rather he has eight differnet lacrima he has to use. Its not unreasonable to think he may be unable to eat elements, and if he could eat the elements then why didn't he eat Jura's rockiron fists instead of being hit by them? Surely as a Dragon Slayer you'd eat things you can eat rather than being hit by them.

Call it favouritism or whatever, I among other people believe that Natsu's attacks won't be shrugged off that easily even if Serena has a resistance to elements, which he hasn't shown to have. They're very physical, and while the fire may be the more prominent parts of the attack, they still knock the opponent around a lot so its not that unbelievable that Natsu could overwhelm Serena with the sheer force of his attacks in a powerful mode like FDKM or Dragon Force. Serena fought opponents who are weaker than a Spriggan, some by a fair bit, so how does being hit a few times by them amount to taking anything more than what Natsu's taken? IgNatsu is only using Igneel's magic power for more attack power, there is nothing to say it boosts his defense as well so his defense should still be considered the same.

Serena showed nothing to say he's even that good with hand to hand combat, so against someone like Natsu who thrives of hand to hand combat in fights he loses out. This tournament goes off what we've seen in the manga, so whatever we've seen in that is factual. God Serena hasn't eaten elements in the manga where he should've been able to at least eat some of Jura's attack, but he didn't. Its therefore a fact that he didn't eat an element when he would've if he was able to. We haven't seen it, therefore we can't count it. And as Serena's flames (Purgatory Dragon flames) are still Dragon Flames which Natsu has previously eaten (Atlas Flame's Dragon Flames), he should be able to eat Serena's flames. I've pointed out previously in other posts how Natsu render's Serena's known elemental attacks useless, so without those and any feats of hand to hand combat skill, how can Serena actually beat Natsu?

 

[Shoutmon]

The fact that he's a freaking dragonslayer is the proof........ what the hell are you guys trying to say? He's a dragonslayer so he can eat the elements of his attributes......... it's a freaking rule, we've seen it from just about every dragonslayer from ever generation. Serena has fire dragonslaying magic, so he can eat freaking fire, it's that simple. Geez.

And again here we have people assuming he can dragonize and bring out claws, I'm going to say this for about the 3rd time, use known facts. You think Serena can't endure any physical attacks or something? He was taken out by the most powerful being in the verse and so now you think Natsu can low diff him?...... ROFL! The favouritism is real. Let me spin the question the other way round then, so far, Serena has tanked attacks from Jura and Wolfhiem, both very powerful wizards, he endured and overpowered Warrod and Hyberion, also both powerful wizards. What has Natsu tanked and endured during this arc (discounting IgNatsu because that's no longer a thing)? Serena's tanking feats are better than Natsu's, all you're argument has now boiled down to is that Natsu can low diff Serena by punching him, when Serena should be able to hurt Natsu just as much.

Spoiler

v.s.

Now you tell me what had more force, Base Natsu's punch or Wolfheim and Jura's attacks? Even if that fist was coated in flames, the force is still coming from Natsu's physical strenght and even if it wasn't, in that scan, God Serena is clearly affected by Jura's rock attack, unless you think that he just likes to say "UGH!!!" when being attacked for fun, so he's not immune to his own elements. Now imagine DF Natsu, who's much more physically powerful than the same Natsu who sent Bakel flying from the ground right through Ajeel's ship, and you'll get an idea of just how physically powerful he would be. Now Serena on the other hand has shown no physical moves, just attacks that had a form of range to them, he has no speed feats, meanwhile Tower of heaven DF Natsu blitzed a Jellal that was using meteor, Tartaros DF Natsu was blitzing Etherious Mard Geer, and current DF Natsu would almost certainly be much faster than he was back then. GS's endurance isn't anything special, because Wolfheim and Jura's attacks aren't anything special, meanwhile last time we saw him, DF Natsu was covered in dragon scales, i.e. one of, if not the most durable thing in the verse. Sure, GS's DS magic might be able to penetrate his scales, but as others have pointed out, Natsu has a counter for all of his displayed DS elements, especially if he's in DF. So yeah, God Serena is getting low diffed.

 

[Holt]

Wait what? Natsu is allowed to use DF while he can't use it on his own will? Then why was it allowed to say that Macro had limitations while this was NEVER stated in the manga? This seems pretty biased and really unfair to me.

Since Natsu can't access DF at his own will, I'm still excluding it in this fight. Not that it matters, God Serena will just eat every attack Natsu uses against him.

Technically Marco wasn't restricted for Mira. The only thing would be to question how effective it'd be against certain opponents which is up to speculation and this is considering that not everyone was affected when she used it in the manga. Same thing applies to Natsu here, even with DF, it doesn't automatically mean he can win. The strength of DF is up to debate and opinions.

In addition, no need to get off topic again. Natsu isn't dragonizing as that isn't an ability that he or any other participant in this tournament has shown.

 

[Tirl]

As I just pointed out, even if God Serena has more experience and magic power, what will that matter if he can't hit Natsu? Natsu can dispel the gale dragon spells, he can evaporate the Sea King Dragon spells, he can fly up to avoid the Cavern Dragon spells and he can eat the Purgatory Dragon spells.

Serena has more MP. Natsu cant hold his attack forever - Serena win.

Its not a fact because he hasn't done it. Unless they've shown it in the manga, they cannot do it.

Mira show that she can use macro. More of You said that she cant use it on Jellal. Stupid thing. Why you ignore your rules in one fight but not another??

Its still Natsu willing Dragon Force. Even if he did it in a previous arc, there is no reason why he couldn't do it now when he's spent a year training to become even stronger.

Natsu didnt show his DF in this war, so for your rules he can use only DF from past arc. DF which was weaker than Mard.

All characters are fighting to win at any and all cost. They therefore have no emotional or psychological barrier preventing them from fully utilizing all spells and abilities in their repertoire.

As you see - heart is nothing in this tournament, fighter go all out.

Laxus has never shown he can eat elements either, he's only shown a resistance to them.

Bs Laxus' power allow him to kill opponent without any power up. He doesnt need eat lightning bs he never meet strong opponent with lightning. And Serena too. Jura is far weaker than Serena, why he should eat his attacks?? Bs you want that?
Ok. Serena didnt show how he eat element. So Natsu didnt show DF in this war. And if he can use DF, why he didnt in fight with Zeref?? Its the same thing like Serena didnt eat Jura's rock (while he fly down from tree after Wolf punch).

And ofc, Natsu didnt show his new DF but you desided He can and it is much stronger, but Mira cant use macro while in manga she use it. Genius.