Group Group A

[grey matter]

I agree it's not speculation to say Ajeel can assimilate with sand. We have seen him done so against Erza, and he will likely do so if he is to whip out sand world again. You don't see me disagreeing with you on that point. However, your initial quote was Ajeel could hide under the Earth, or hide within sand world for prolonged duration while waiting for the rest to tire themselves out.

His ability allows him to assimilate with sand on ground.
He has canonically assimilated with the sand storm.

He certainly can wait it out, give me a reason why other than "it's not in Ajeel's character to do so"

However, Ajeel has never hid under Earth. It is not a feat he has shown in his skillset. Hence it is pure speculation on your part.

The battle might or might not take place on land. Tbh, the location of this fight is not specified. The rules indicate:

He certainly can do it, based on his ability.
But if it makes you happy, go ahead and assume he can't. Hiding in sand storm achieves the same effect.

Ok, think of the every battle that occurred in FT.
About 90% of them were the normal land mass, which has plenty of sand. A "typical" battlefield will contain significant amount of sand. A typical battlefield = sand + hard ground + a bunch of plants + maybe buildings.
Unless you specifically choose a battlefield to remove any advantages anyone has, Ajeel by default has field advantage.
And like I said, if you'd want to, assume a battlefield with zero sand. Ajeel creates sand world and this results in the same scenario.

Ajeel can assimilate in the sandstorm but he isn't going to do so for a prolonged duration. And he isn't going to hide under the Earth. From what we have seen of Ajeel in his fight with Erza, he quickly attacked her in an attempt to prove his superiority over her. Given his track record, this is not congruent to your claims. I understand that all argument centers around hypothesis. However, we shouldn't blatantly disregard the law of probability.

Yes, that's Ajeel in character.

I'm not talking about probability here, I'm just taking Ajeel the mage, and discarding Ajeel the character.

Again, you are giving Ajeel a huge benefit of doubt by assuming that the battlefield is sand. A neutral location mean that there shouldn't have a significant amount of sand in the battlefield. It could take place in Kardia Cathedral, Plutogrim, Celestial spirit world (this is neutral since no celestial spirits are amongst this group), Hargeon port, the FT guild building, or even the airship that Erza and Ajeel fought on. These are some examples of neutral locations.

I assumed a typical battlefield. But like I said before, assume a neutral battlefield if you want. Say, all ground is level and made of concrete.
Ajeel simply uses sand world and we get the same scenario. Ajeel will have less to work with since ground is now taken away, but it doesn't make much difference

Also dig deep enough and we still get sand, rocks and hard ground lmao. Ajeel can turn stuff to sand too, he simply turns the current ground into sand and we reach a typical battlefield again.
But yeah, you can assume an invincible ground which Ajeel can't turn into sand. The battlefield has to be specifically prepared to take away Ajeel's advantage. Either it should happen on a flying battleship, or sea, or some ground which cannot be dusted by Ajeel. Kinda tells us something, doesn't it?

Anyway, it doesn't change too much in the end. Ajeel still whips out sand world and it will have the same effect.

It is not any different to Brandish's 'organ burst' arguments because Brandish does not fight in that manner. Her fight with Lucy showed us that the way Brandish fought was by using her magic to minimize her foes' attacks then enlarging the attacks and launching them back, or shrink their bodies down so they can't do much damage to her then easily overpowering them. At least in Brandish's case, Mashima had another character (Dimaria) stating that she could potentially expand their organs inside their bodies until they explode. There is hype. On the other hand, Ajeel hiding under the Earth, or hiding within his sandstorm for a lengthy duration then waiting to feed on scraps has very little probability because it has neither been portrayed in manga (feats) nor implied (hype).

It is not the same.

Because whether Brandish wants to fight in this way or not, there is no proof she even can do it in combat.

The only thing stopping Ajeel from fighting the way I described is his own character.

One uses their ability on their own element, inanimate and unable to resist. Which they have shown prior. The other acts on ANOTHER OPPONENT WHO CAN RESIST, and has never shown it in combat
If you still can't see the difference, it's on purpose for the sake of argument.

Notice how Dimaria mentioned expanding organs only for Natsu and not for Lucy? For Lucy she only mentioned "Brandish could've shrunk you and crushed".
That's because Natsu wasn't in battle, was powered down and Brandish backstabbed him who thought her an ally.
Brandish hasn't done organ burst in combat. And again, anyone claiming she can, must also concede Jellal one shotting everyone with self destruction spell or bind snake. Or Mest one shotting everyone through mind control. etc

Ok. Ignore anything I said about Ajeel hiding in Earth. Arguing over it is pointless, it isn't getting anywhere. Still doesn't make a difference, as Ajeel will do the same in sand world, which he DEMONSTRATED.
Now, the only thing that's preventing him from doing it is his character.

It isn't fair to the rest of participants if Ajeel gets to play by a different set of rules and dons a brand new personality that maximises his efficiency.

Actually no. I consider everyone in the battle royal as mages, while stripping them off their character.
They act in ways that best suits their chance for victory,

You're free to assume the same for any character you please. You can assume the same for Elfman.

Strip every mage in this battle royal of their character, and argue how Elfman outlasts Ajeel

Context is key to the situation. Ajeel only managed to get the better of Erza initially because her prominent weapons and armours in Requip were locked away by Marin's magic and she couldn't access them. Three of these items were the Wind god armour, sea empress sword and wind god sword. They were all very effective to combat Ajeel, who was bleeding heavily after being slashed.

My God, not this again! I have lost count of how many times I've debunked this argument, usually made by Erza wankers.

VAST MAJORITY of damage dealt by Ajeel to Erza was done AFTER Marin's ability was done. This was because Ajeel was playing around until he got slashed a few times by wind/water swords.

If you doubt me, go re read the ENTIRE fight.

Erza whipped out wind and sea swords, and slashed Ajeel a few times after Marin got off'd. And Ajeel tanked them all, and he got slashed to begin with only because he was caught off guard. He was used to swords passing through him harmless, and turning them to dust, so he just stays and takes the hits

The fact that he still tanked all those slashes, while being unprepared and caught off guard, is a testament to Ajeel. He wasn't the typical Spriggan who was fodder in stats with high MP/hax. The guy actually could take hits and fight in combat.

And guess what happened later? He got serious, whipped out sand world and immediately defeated Erza

Take Marin away and nothing changes. Maybe a grand total 10% damage was done by Ajeel to Erza during this entire period if I'm being generous, he was casual AF during the entire time.

And a fourth that was arguably her strongest armour in the Nakagami armour. Ajeel was left staggering from one hit by jupiter cannon. The same blast that could only scratch Makarov's forearms in his titan form. His actual durability leaves a lot to be desired. It's a matter of when, not if, he gets struck by someone more powerful than him here. The chances of Ajeel surviving a battle royale longer than a combatant as formidable as Elfman, who is highly regarded by characters like Erza for his tremendous durability and endurance, is exceptionally low in terms of probability.

Yea, Ajeel was caught off guard by Jupiter. We've seen multiple times in the series that off guard attacks deal high damage to the victim.
Brandish stabbing August, Cobra one shotting Brain, Sting one shotting Bacchus etc

Jupiter Canon still didn't defeat him by the way, it did injure him. But what took him down was Nakagami from Erza, probably the second strongest form of Erza offensively after red pants (which she can't use because of Ajeel's sand body, Nakagami is needed to prevent any chance of him turning into sand).

And again, I'm not arguing Ajeel is more durable than Elfman, no way. I'm saying Ajeel assimilates in sand world. Elfman is a big boi, getting even bigger with his takeovers. Surrounded by mages stronger than him, like Gildarts, Erza and Gray. How does he outlast Ajeel?

 

[Valhalla]

He did hurt him.Those dust marks are actually damge markers and we saw that Madmole was hurt after the confrontation. Skullion legit stated they couldn't beat them either lol. So it was a stalemate. Elfman did so which is why he and Skullion admitted they were powerful lol. Madmole was hurting Elf in that fight as well. Both hurt each other which is why both were damaged and sweating after their stalemate.

I see this in two ways.

On one hand I honestly cant admit that as being hurt, not from Elfman, because i cant believe that he has attacks that can actually go beyond the power of a FDK Demo fist. Its just ridiculous to think that imo. So i equated those dust marks as dust marks from a prolonged battle where puches were thrown but with 0 results, all in the hopes that my brain can make sense of it because how did Mira injure Skullion when she could not even hit him. I blame the author and artist for having no idea how to even show that fight, which is why they offscreened it imo, and marks of "damage" where shown to say that Elfman and Mira are strong and that they can actually fight them. This is honestly the same thing as when Hiro offscreened Jacob and Ajeel.

On the other hand, after Igneel's power went away, a base FDK Demo Fist without going into FDK mode isnt really that powerful anymore, not even close. Just a tier stronger version than the Iron Fist. In that case i can actually believe that Elfman can match that power and with time do slight damage to Madmole, but then Madmole's defense isnt really that impressive. Why, because if base FDK Demo fist is just a tier stronger then Iron Fist, then a lot of characters can down Madmole's defense, not just Elfman, and that includes the likes of Mira, Gray, Erza, a bit more fired up Natsu, etc, Natsu FDK mode, Laxus, Gildarts, Jellal would be overkill. So, no, like i said i dont really consider Madmole as impressive.

If Madmole is hurting Elfman, that means that Elfman can get hurt by attacks that are Iron Fist level, which is honestly at this stage not that impressive.

 

[Ronin31]

I see this in two ways.

On one hand I honestly cant admit that as being hurt, not from Elfman, because i cant believe that he has attacks that can actually go beyond the power of a FDK Demo fist. Its just ridiculous to think that imo. So i equated those dust marks as dust marks from a prolonged battle where puches were thrown but with 0 results, all in the hopes that my brain can make sense of it because how did Mira injure Skullion when she could not even hit him. I blame the author and artist for having no idea how to even show that fight, which is why they offscreened it imo, and marks of "damage" where shown to say that Elfman and Mira are strong and that they can actually fight them. This is honestly the same thing as when Hiro offscreened Jacob and Ajeel.

On the other hand, after Igneel's power went away, a base FDK Demo Fist without going into FDK mode isnt really that powerful anymore, not even close. Just a tier stronger version than the Iron Fist. In that case i can actually believe that Elfman can match that power and with time do slight damage to Madmole, but then Madmole's defense isnt really that impressive. Why, because if base FDK Demo fist is just a tier stronger then Iron Fist, then a lot of characters can down Madmole's defense, not just Elfman, and that includes the likes of Mira, Gray, Erza, a bit more fired up Natsu, etc, Natsu FDK mode, Laxus, Gildarts, Jellal would be overkill. So, no, like i said i dont really consider Madmole as impressive.

If Madmole is hurting Elfman, that means that Elfman can get hurt by attacks that are Iron Fist level, which is honestly at this stage not that impressive.

Well, the way I understood the fight is that none of them could bypass the others before being magicly exausted.

On screen, we saw Elfman's strongest beast form breaking his punch to zero effect, just like Natsu's FDK Punch. On screen, we haven't seen Elfman having stronger spells, so, it's relevant to say that Elfman can't damage Mardmole. Or I want a picture of it. On the other side, we saw Natsu matching Mardmole physical attack with his Fire Punch. So I can see Mardmole as strong as Gajeel in offensive way but with a far stronger defensive armor. Elfman is a tank and I can see him tanking blows from the like of Gajeel until being exausted. So, as I saw it, both are physically tougher than they are strong. So none of them can bypass the other durability before falling with zero MP. They are just too durable for each others.

On screen we saw an enrage Mirajane using physical strength and Vaccum Spell to nothing as well against this "Logia's body". So, she can't touch him and can't damage him, just like Natsu and Grey who were useless as well. But Mira's agility could dodge Ashes's spells to nullify Skullion's attacks as well. So, both attacks were countered in different ways and they spent Magic without having a clear average. I still think Skullion could bypass Mirajane with AoE spell, like he did vs Grey, but perhaps he would erase Mardmole as well. As team-up, he could't.

As damage, Elfman and Mirajane weren't more effective than Natsu and Grey or show me a picture. They resist more, because of the way to fight : Grey couldn't dodge in water like Mirajane on earth, it's physical. Skullion couldn't use his AoE attack like vs Gray with his partner close to him (if I remember well, he was about to erase the entire Elmina, so this AoE is huge).

 

[Seven777]

The thing is Base FDK Natsu could not beat Madmole in a straight up battle of power and had to resort to heat instead to win. For Elfman to hurt Madmole with physical force, he would have to far more power than a Base Natsu Demo-fist.



I mean he no sold Lucy's mix dress while Gray got hurt by the Rajinshuu, and he hurt Madmole and tanked attacks from him while Gray's ice was shattered by Kiria. Gray's feats in the Selene arc aren't even applicable considering they are boosted in Elentir. So like by feats, Elfman keeping up and stalemating Madmole in a 4v4 and him no selling Mixed Dress is more impressive than what Gray did in the 100YQ.

So even without the underdog vote, I do not rate Gray solidly above Elf either.

Not at all. Elfman would just have to accumulate damage over time. Even Aldaron doesn't take 0 damage from a Demo fist. Hit him enough, he gets hurt. Madmole was simply hit enough that a little wear and tear was showing. He doesn't hit harder than Demo Fist, he hurts his hand on Madmoles face like everyone else

Everyone was boosted in Elentir, including Gray's opponent, so his feat is more than applicable. He defeated a foe that could solo him and Natsu at the same time, he also beat the God Seed with Juvia, much better feats than Elfman beating no one. He is obviously above Elfman, youre insane if you think Mashima would even consider making Elfman his match.
Base Gray also mid diffs Ajeel. He matched END equally, regular spriggans are nothing to him.

 

[GL_Nova]

If that was the case, Brandish would be as irrelevant in x793, as Jackal was in x792. So no. They did improve decently between x792 and x793, but the improvement cannot be compared with the insane jump between x791 and x792
They learned new spells, so what? That doesn't mean they improved by multiple tiers, which has more to do with stats than learning new techniques.
Did you read my interpretation of Elfman's fights? It's iffy because they were all off screen, and I explained why. I also gave a counter to "Elfman hits harder than FDK demo fist"

He wasn't ignoring it because of CIS lol. For someone of that tier, Cana's attacks shouldn't even tickle. It was just an excuse for Gildarts to figure out August's ability, Erza vs Midnight 2.0 but non sensical
He stood up immediately, and used ars magica because he's retarded. Gildarts had lost his ONLY means of damaging August, and had crippled himself in the process. Finishing off Gildarts at that point was mere formality. Using ars magica was completely unnecessary.

Oh come on. Both you and I know Gray wasn't serious, it was a gag moment. Serious Gray one shots her, undebatable.
Edit: tell me who she's going to defeat in this group, if fairy glitter is restricted. Would she even give more than a mid diff to the next weakest mage in the group?

The only person still shook of Brandish is Lucy. Here power is still haxy as all get out, and we know Mashima chooses who to keep relevant and who not. What other year long jump do we have to compare it to? I mean, it took the guild 3 months of training to close a 7 year gap with the rest of the world.

I see your argument, but they read like lowballing him to an extent. The comparisons to Mira, his tanking of Lucy’s attack, his performance against Madmole all point to him having regained relevance at the last.

That’s an opinion. What we saw was that she was able to do damage if he wasn’t able to negate her attacks. Which with most of the Tenrou arc being Spriggan cusp during the arc that tracks. They all should have matured to at least Spriggan tier by now. An they’re all set to grow like normal during the story.

Another opinion, he used it because he’s stupid as opposed to he was shook from that attack and deemed it necessary instead of risking anymore of those with no backup.

He wasn’t seriously putting everybody down? She dodged him and had him dead to rights. It had som levity, but that’s still what went down broham. He thought he was gunna 1 shot, and played himself.

She’s actually pretty versatile. Even if she does have a lot of raw power and a move that maximizes it fully. Thing is she has it though.

 

[Jko]

Not at all. Elfman would just have to accumulate damage over time. Even Aldaron doesn't take 0 damage from a Demo fist. Hit him enough, he gets hurt. Madmole was simply hit enough that a little wear and tear was showing. He doesn't hit harder than Demo Fist, he hurts his hand on Madmoles face like everyone else

Everyone was boosted in Elentir, including Gray's opponent, so his feat is more than applicable. He defeated a foe that could solo him and Natsu at the same time, he also beat the God Seed with Juvia, much better feats than Elfman beating no one. He is obviously above Elfman, youre insane if you think Mashima would even consider making Elfman his match.
Base Gray also mid diffs Ajeel. He matched END equally, regular spriggans are nothing to him.

There was no indication that Madmole ever took damage from Natsu and Natsu never hurt himself hitting Aldo's body. If Natsu could have just brute his way through then he wouldn't have to rely on heat to beat Madmole. Aldo taking damage from Natsu also doesn't really mean anything since Dragons are susceptible to DS magic. Even the likes of Wendy can "damage" Aldo to an extent. It would not be the same against a DS tho since they have no such weakness. Elf has always been a physical monster, it is no suprise that he can outmatch Base Natsu with brute force.

Hakune only won through hax which Gray had a counter too. Without the counter, it would have been the same stuff. The moves they pull off in Elentir have not shown to be applicable on Earthland, and their opponents being upgraded is moot since that means while unbuffed, they are relatively the same level either way. Hakune is just Gray level without hax.

Nah, the God Seed without golem was fodder. Lucy beat an actual Golem with mix dress, Gray failed to harm one with ice make. Meaning Gray has to rely on DeS alone just to hurt Elfman lol.

END was a bit above Base Natsu, and he had an advantage against Invel. With Ajeel he doesn't and Ajeel rolfstomped Erza in SW while bloodlusted Gray got his punch caught by Erza with ease lol. Gray has never been Erza level even while doped on PoF while Ajeel has been shown to be Erza tier. You can bring uo the Elf fight to downplay him but 1 he did not use SW, and two Elf countered his entire sand arsenal and two can hit above a Base FDK hit. Even Gajeel was suprised by Ajeel's stats and Gajeel and Gray are relative to each other as well. So yeah, Ajeel is above Gray.

Elfman fighting on par with Madmole is a better feat than beating Metro's main body which stats are fodder, or Hakune who has no notable defense showings.

Mashima has told us countless times that Elf can compete with Gray/Gajeel tier characters.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 6, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 6, 2021 ---

Gray only got injured before activating his Devil Slayer power and that was because he was not using ice, when he activated his power the Rajinshuu did absolutely nothing to Gray, and adds that Gray didn't want to hurt them, he even stayed to take care of them, after of beating them, and Elfman was so quickly taken down off-screen that he didn't even get to be mentioned because of how irrelevant he had been by the logic of that off-screen fight.

You only want to be controversial because you are the only one who is writing this.

Gray shouldn't need a stat amp to beat guys who are weaker than Lucy lol. Elfman only got beat after he was exhausted from his Madmole fight. Dude was straight fighting for the entire arc lol. Dunno why you acted like he got offscreened beat while fresh . Offscreen feats are still feats like it or not, and the intent is clear that Elf is equivalent to Madmole.

And? I can have my own opinions and I really do not care about public consensus at all. The forum isn't meant to be a hivemind lol.

 

[grey matter]

The only person still shook of Brandish is Lucy. Here power is still haxy as all get out, and we know Mashima chooses who to keep relevant and who not. What other year long jump do we have to compare it to? I mean, it took the guild 3 months of training to close a 7 year gap with the rest of the world.

I see your argument, but they read like lowballing him to an extent. The comparisons to Mira, his tanking of Lucy’s attack, his performance against Madmole all point to him having regained relevance at the last.

That’s an opinion. What we saw was that she was able to do damage if he wasn’t able to negate her attacks. Which with most of the Tenrou arc being Spriggan cusp during the arc that tracks. They all should have matured to at least Spriggan tier by now. An they’re all set to grow like normal during the story.

Another opinion, he used it because he’s stupid as opposed to he was shook from that attack and deemed it necessary instead of risking anymore of those with no backup.

He wasn’t seriously putting everybody down? She dodged him and had him dead to rights. It had som levity, but that’s still what went down broham. He thought he was gunna 1 shot, and played himself.

She’s actually pretty versatile. Even if she does have a lot of raw power and a move that maximizes it fully. Thing is she has it though.

Her hax also worked on base Gajeel. This wouldn't be possible if Gajeel was many tiers above Brandish. At least Brandish is comparable to base Gajeel in MP. Showing us x792 characters haven't been rendered completely useless.

Yea, I agree the gap between Elfman and Mira is likely lower than ever. Still doesn't matter tho, Mira isn't hitting as hard as FDK demo fist either.
Can you point where I lowballed him? I do consider Elfman powerful, powerful enough to give DeS Gray, ISM Gajeel and LFD Natsu a mid-high diff. But no, he isn't comparable to FDKM, no way.

Her cards exploded on his face and did no damage.
No, Cana isn't Spriggan tier, any Spriggan no diff her. Not all characters in Tenrou island grew up equally. Out of Laxus' trio, only Freed is somewhat relevant in power level, and he's at best GMG Jura tier. The other two are complete fodder. Lucy is still fodder to every Spriggan, so is Wendy.
Only Natsu, Gildarts, Laxus, Erza, Gray, Gajeel, Mira and Elfman have reached a state where they can be safely put on or above Spriggan tier. Everyone else in Tenrou island is fodder to Spriggans

How is it different from what I said? I said he's retarded, you said he's stupid. lmao
We both agree Gildarts was a sitting duck at that point, and crippled - so what's the issue? August had zero reason to use ars magica, he only had a bloodly lip from Gildart's strongest attack

If you seriously believe Cana has any chance against serious Gray, go ahead lmao. I think it's utterly delusional to think she'd last more than 20 secs against Gray, but you do you. Gray puts her down faster than he put down Raijinshuu

 

[Seven777]

There was no indication that Madmole ever took damage from Natsu and Natsu never hurt himself hitting Aldo's body. If Natsu could have just brute his way through then he wouldn't have to rely on heat to beat Madmole. Aldo taking damage from Natsu also doesn't really mean anything since Dragons are susceptible to DS magic. Even the likes of Wendy can "damage" Aldo to an extent. It would not be the same against a DS tho since they have no such weakness. Elf has always been a physical monster, it is no suprise that he can outmatch Base Natsu with brute force.

Hakune only won through hax which Gray had a counter too. Without the counter, it would have been the same stuff. The moves they pull off in Elentir have not shown to be applicable on Earthland, and their opponents being upgraded is moot since that means while unbuffed, they are relatively the same level either way. Hakune is just Gray level without hax.

Nah, the God Seed without golem was fodder. Lucy beat an actual Golem with mix dress, Gray failed to harm one with ice make. Meaning Gray has to rely on DeS alone just to hurt Elfman lol.

END was a bit above Base Natsu, and he had an advantage against Invel. With Ajeel he doesn't and Ajeel rolfstomped Erza in SW while bloodlusted Gray got his punch caught by Erza with ease lol. Gray has never been Erza level even while doped on PoF while Ajeel has been shown to be Erza tier. You can bring uo the Elf fight to downplay him but 1 he did not use SW, and two Elf countered his entire sand arsenal and two can hit above a Base FDK hit. Even Gajeel was suprised by Ajeel's stats and Gajeel and Gray are relative to each other as well. So yeah, Ajeel is above Gray.

Elfman fighting on par with Madmole is a better feat than beating Metro's main body which stats are fodder, or Hakune who has no notable defense showings.

Mashima has told us countless times that Elf can compete with Gray/Gajeel tier characters.

So you're saying Madmole took less damage from Natsu's demolition fist, than Aldaron did? Alright bro, all I'll say is that I disagree. DS advantage is nowhere near enough to bridge that gap.
And no, it'd be extremely surprising if Elfman had a move above Demolition Fist. Borderline impossible really. Realistically the only way he could damage Madmole is by tossing him around a bit and accumulating damage over time.

So? Everything characters like Dimaria and Larcade have accomplished is through hax as well.

No. God Seed without golem only looks like fodder because Juvia and Gray destroyed them, because Gray is powerful. The God Seed was obviously beyond his golems. Base Gray also beats Elfman in a fist fight, using his strongest takeover.

END no diffed Dimaria, was stated to be too powerful for Brandish to even affect. He is well above any normal spriggan by a mile, clearly, and so is Gray. Ajeel is literally immune to swords lol, he's not Erza tier. Erza is near human Eileen tier and that's without PoF.

No, he was literally the joke character that Gray could just forget about. Elfman can maybe keep up with Base Gray. Not win, but he'd put up a fight. That's the limit of Elfman's strength.

 

[Jko]

I see this in two ways.

On one hand I honestly cant admit that as being hurt, not from Elfman, because i cant believe that he has attacks that can actually go beyond the power of a FDK Demo fist. Its just ridiculous to think that imo. So i equated those dust marks as dust marks from a prolonged battle where puches were thrown but with 0 results, all in the hopes that my brain can make sense of it because how did Mira injure Skullion when she could not even hit him. I blame the author and artist for having no idea how to even show that fight, which is why they offscreened it imo, and marks of "damage" where shown to say that Elfman and Mira are strong and that they can actually fight them. This is honestly the same thing as when Hiro offscreened Jacob and Ajeel.

On the other hand, after Igneel's power went away, a base FDK Demo Fist without going into FDK mode isnt really that powerful anymore, not even close. Just a tier stronger version than the Iron Fist. In that case i can actually believe that Elfman can match that power and with time do slight damage to Madmole, but then Madmole's defense isnt really that impressive. Why, because if base FDK Demo fist is just a tier stronger then Iron Fist, then a lot of characters can down Madmole's defense, not just Elfman, and that includes the likes of Mira, Gray, Erza, a bit more fired up Natsu, etc, Natsu FDK mode, Laxus, Gildarts, Jellal would be overkill. So, no, like i said i dont really consider Madmole as impressive.

If Madmole is hurting Elfman, that means that Elfman can get hurt by attacks that are Iron Fist level, which is honestly at this stage not that impressive.

Base FDK is a still far stronger than FD level attacks. It's just his far more powerful arsenal is gated behind PoF boosts or upper forms like FDKM, and DF. Base < LFD < FDK and so forth. Igneel's power leaving Natsu had nothing really to do with Base Natsu's FDK attacks. He has used them for fodder clearing multiple times lol. Gray is not on the levels of the guys you have mention even while bloodlusted or PoF boosted nor do I see Jellal at the level either when his second strongest attack was equivalent to an iron fist level attack lol. Laxus, Mira, Gild, upper level Natsu, and Erza are all above the likes of Gray tier. This was shown when Gray had a high diff fight with the a weakened Mira in BSS and she fought the opponent that oneshotted him at his best with only BSS. Then there is Erza catching his bloodlusted punch while he was doped on PoF without too much trouble. Gray, Elf, Madmole, Gajeel, ect is simply not FT S-Class tier. If Laxus fought Madmole, Madmole would get laid out the same way Kiria did (albeit it would take a little bit more given his defense is far better than Kiria's).

Madmole's defense is still impressive since Natsu's FDK is still impressive. It can still massively hurt or straight body certain characters, it's just that level attack is meaningless against opponents as powerful as Erza or Laxus.

They hurt both Skull and Madmole, I do not seeing anything to doubt such and the beginning skirmish in a fight usually end up like that, it is only the end results that count. Sure offscreen sucks, but the feats are still feats.

 

[grey matter]

So you're saying Madmole took less damage from Natsu's demolition fist, than Aldaron did? Alright bro, all I'll say is that I disagree. DS advantage is nowhere near enough to bridge that gap.
And no, it'd be extremely surprising if Elfman had a move above Demolition Fist. Borderline impossible really. Realistically the only way he could damage Madmole is by tossing him around a bit and accumulating damage over time.

So? Everything characters like Dimaria and Larcade have accomplished is through hax as well.

No. God Seed without golem only looks like fodder because Juvia and Gray destroyed them, because Gray is powerful. The God Seed was obviously beyond his golems. Base Gray also beats Elfman in a fist fight, using his strongest takeover.

END no diffed Dimaria, was stated to be too powerful for Brandish to even affect. He is well above any normal spriggan by a mile, clearly, and so is Gray. Ajeel is literally immune to swords lol, he's not Erza tier. Erza is near human Eileen tier and that's without PoF.

No, he was literally the joke character that Gray could just forget about. Elfman can maybe keep up with Base Gray. Not win, but he'd put up a fight. That's the limit of Elfman's strength.

I think Elfman can give mid diff to DeS Gray, but agreed for the rest.

 

[Jko]

So you're saying Madmole took less damage from Natsu's demolition fist, than Aldaron did? Alright bro, all I'll say is that I disagree. DS advantage is nowhere near enough to bridge that gap.
And no, it'd be extremely surprising if Elfman had a move above Demolition Fist. Borderline impossible really. Realistically the only way he could damage Madmole is by tossing him around a bit and accumulating damage over time.

So? Everything characters like Dimaria and Larcade have accomplished is through hax as well.

No. God Seed without golem only looks like fodder because Juvia and Gray destroyed them, because Gray is powerful. The God Seed was obviously beyond his golems. Base Gray also beats Elfman in a fist fight, using his strongest takeover.

END no diffed Dimaria, was stated to be too powerful for Brandish to even affect. He is well above any normal spriggan by a mile, clearly, and so is Gray. Ajeel is literally immune to swords lol, he's not Erza tier. Erza is near human Eileen tier and that's without PoF.

No, he was literally the joke character that Gray could just forget about. Elfman can maybe keep up with Base Gray. Not win, but he'd put up a fight. That's the limit of Elfman's strength.

Why would his armor take damage when DS magic does not bypass his defense at all? An example, Supes takes no damage from the likes of Aquaman but gets hurt by a rando with kryptonite bullet, under normal circumstances Aldo would not be hurt bcs Aquaman >>>> rando, but the weakness factors into it which makes it possible. Just like Wendy capable of hurting Zirconis who Jura couldn't and she did as much damage to him as Laxus lol. The two opponents def aren't really comparable since Natsu has a weakness that allows him to hurt Aldo in the first place, but doesn't have on for Madmole.

Except it wouldn't since Madmole took no damage from that Demo-fist. He was basically punching a brick wall and breaking his hand when he punched Madmole. Elf had to punch a lot harder than that to hurt him.

Okay?

Metro was straight up stated to be weaker than the Golems ergo the reason he was damage by a Ice Make hammer while the Golems no sold it. In a fist fight? Nah, Gray would def need to spam ice to win. Elf's physical stats are above Gray's. Gray just makes up the difference with his ice magic and speed. There is absolutely no way Gray could damage Madmole with just straight physical strength lmao.

END backstabbed Base DiMaria and only stopped Brandish hax which he was later noted to be just straight up resistant to hax. He was never stated to be too strong for her to beat lol. It is the in same vein as thinking enhanced Neinheart is stronger than Brandish bcs her hax didn't work on him. He's not since she could just go Aldo size and squash him. Erza was getting straight up toyed while amped by Wendy. She is not human Irene tier without massive PoF and Wendy amps, and Irene holding back lol. Ajeel was straight up cut by Erza's water sword then proceed to overpower Erza and fodderize her in SW. He also had zero trouble keeping up with the speed of her attacks and she only landed said attacks bcs he was distracted. Like I said, Ajeel is Erza tier, he tanked her attacks, kept up with speed, and when he went to SW, he utterly decimated Erza. Erza needed her strongest armor to best Ajeel as well.

Nah, he was severely underestimated and the main opponent was Mira. Two, he was exhuasted by then as well. He is def strong enough to keep up with DeS Gray. Base Gray would get folded by Elf.

 

[grey matter]

@Jko

Assuming Elfman hits harder than FDK demo fist is ridiculous and makes no sense from what we know about these characters

My take on Elfman's feats.

I mean, it's clear what Mashima is trying to portray here. He is basically portraying that he's keeping up somewhat with the powerhouses of the guild, and the gap between him and his sister is probably as low as it has ever been.

But the fact that both of his best feats were offscreen is a serious issue we face when trying to scale his stats.

- feat against Ajeel.
There is no explanation of how this transpired. All we saw was that Elfman transformed to sand beast which was resistant/immune to sand, Ajeel trapped him in pit, Lissana got him to escape. Next thing we see after a few chapters is Ajeel on the ground, with zero explanation.
Elfman maybe immune to sand, but Ajeel is immune to physical as well. So how exactly did Elfman knock him down? Even if we assume that Elfman's sand beat somehow bypassed Ajeel's immunity since he counters sand users (headcanon), Ajeel could simply move away to anywhere within sand world. Sand world occupies a city+ AOE, Ajeel can simply ignore Elfman and move onto fight someone else

- feat against Madmole.
What happened on screen was Elfman trying to punch Madmole with lion beast, get damage reflected, and get immediately knocked out of lion form. While Madmole took zero damage.
Few chapters later we see a single panel of Madmole/Skullion fighting Mira/Elfman.
Few more chapters later, we see all 4 moderately injured, unable to put each others down. No explanation as to how any of this transpired, again!
Madmole was someone who no sold FDK demo fist, one of Natsu's strongest attacks (no DF). He had to resort to heat, and not destructive power, to damage Madmole. I find it ridiculous to assume that Elfman hits harder than a demo fist, so the entire off screen battle seems weird AF to me.

Now, what's written below is what I THINK happened. It's headcanon, but it makes logical sense to me.
Madmole is armour dragon. The way he hardens his skin is similar to how Natsu produces fire, he uses his DS magic to do so. His insane defence is a direct result of the nature of his power, i.e it's not his natural defence stat.
So, what might have happened was, Elfman vs Madmole lasted long enough that Madmole started running low on magic power. Which meant, he no longer could produce the defence that can no sell attacks like FDK demo fist or lion beast's attacks. Hence he started taking damage from Elfman.
This is my explanation of how the entire fight had transpired. It wasn't because Elfman hits harder than demo fist, but because Madmole's defences eventually gave way.

What do you guys think?

 

[Seven777]

Why would his armor take damage when DS magic does not bypass his defense at all? An example, Supes takes no damage from the likes of Aquaman but gets hurt by a rando with kryptonite bullet, under normal circumstances Aldo would not be hurt bcs Aquaman >>>> rando, but the weakness factors into it which makes it possible. Just like Wendy capable of hurting Zirconis who Jura couldn't and she did as much damage to him as Laxus lol. The two opponents def aren't really comparable since Natsu has a weakness that allows him to hurt Aldo in the first place, but doesn't have on for Madmole.

Except it wouldn't since Madmole took no damage from that Demo-fist. He was basically punching a brick wall and breaking his hand when he punched Madmole. Elf had to punch a lot harder than that to hurt him.

Okay?

Metro was straight up stated to be weaker than the Golems ergo the reason he was damage by a Ice Make hammer while the Golems no sold it. In a fist fight? Nah, Gray would def need to spam ice to win. Elf's physical stats are above Gray's. Gray just makes up the difference with his ice magic and speed. There is absolutely no way Gray could damage Madmole with just straight physical strength lmao.

END backstabbed Base DiMaria and only stopped Brandish hax which he was later noted to be just straight up resistant to hax. He was never stated to be too strong for her to beat lol. It is the in same vein as thinking enhanced Neinheart is stronger than Brandish bcs her hax didn't work on him. He's not since she could just go Aldo size and squash him. Erza was getting straight up toyed while amped by Wendy. She is not human Irene tier without massive PoF and Wendy amps, and Irene holding back lol. Ajeel was straight up cut by Erza's water sword then proceed to overpower Erza and fodderize her in SW. He also had zero trouble keeping up with the speed of her attacks and she only landed said attacks bcs he was distracted. Like I said, Ajeel is Erza tier, he tanked her attacks, kept up with speed, and when he went to SW, he utterly decimated Erza. Erza needed her strongest armor to best Ajeel as well.

Nah, he was severely underestimated and the main opponent was Mira. Two, he was exhuasted by then as well. He is def strong enough to keep up with DeS Gray. Base Gray would get folded by Elf.

You don't need DS advantage, you just hit him like anyone else as Elfman showcased. Madmole isn't supes, he's just durable, and like anyone if you hit him enough he'll start taking damage.

Sure, and for Elfman it was the same, we see it on panel. Elfman just did it enough times that the brick wall started to chip away.

No he wasn't? Nowhere was it said Metro was weaker than his golems.
Gray beat Invel half to death with just his fists. He could take down Werelion Elfman in a straight up brawl, no ice.

No, he defeated her with pure power. She was so terrified of his overwhelming strength that she gave up on being a warrior and became a farmer lmao. Natsu's strength literally gave her PTSD. END>>>Dimaria>Brandish. He is too powerful for all of them. This was clearly Mashima's intention.
Only reason Wendy Belserion was a threat was because Erza was unwilling to hurt Wendy. Erza matched bloodlusted human Eileen, solo.
As for Ajeel being cut by Erza's water sword, so? Erza's rando armors are trash. Laxus destroyed one specifically designed to counter him, with a single hit, no diff. That's the level Ajeel is at, he can compete with Erza's oneshottable trash armor.

Just goes to show how Mashima thinks of him. And no, DeS Gray is in another league to Elfman. Elfman is at best Base Gray/Base Gajeel tier.

 

[grey matter]

Sure, and for Elfman it was the same, we see it on panel. Elfman just did it enough times that the brick wall started to chip away.

I don't think it's even that. This is what I think happened:

Madmole is armour dragon. The way he hardens his skin is similar to how Natsu produces fire, he uses his DS magic to do so. His insane defence is a direct result of the nature of his power, i.e it's not his natural defence stat.
So, what might have happened was, Elfman vs Madmole lasted long enough that Madmole started running low on magic power. Which meant, he no longer could produce the defence that can no sell attacks like FDK demo fist or lion beast's attacks. Hence he started taking damage from Elfman.

This is my explanation of how the entire fight had transpired. It wasn't because Elfman hits harder than demo fist, or because he dealt incremental damage enough to eventually injure Madmole even through his insane defence, but because Madmole's defences eventually gave way due to being low on MP.

 

[Biri Biri]

His ability allows him to assimilate with sand on ground.
He has canonically assimilated with the sand storm.

He certainly can wait it out, give me a reason why other than "it's not in Ajeel's character to do so"

He certainly can do it, based on his ability.
But if it makes you happy, go ahead and assume he can't. Hiding in sand storm achieves the same effect.

Like I said previously. Besides it going against his character, Ajeel did not wait it out in sand world despite going all out in his fight with Erza. Given his track record, it's unlikely to see him doing that.

It's clear you do not understand the mechanism of sand world; its capabilities and its limitations. The biggest advantage of sand world is that it allows Ajeel to assimilate with it and reappear anywhere inside of it. It also obscures visibility for anyone else who are inside the sand storm. This enhances his mobility, while impairing his foes' vision. Sand world by itself does not increase the power behind Ajeel's attacks. Case in point, when he used Raml Sayf and Raml Fa'as on Erza, he had to condense the sand into blades and an axe respectively. A sand storm occurs when rather than condense, the sand gets blown by strong wind. The sand and particles that get blown then disperse and become suspended in the air. A sand storm is always airborne. Since when does a sand storm goes underground?

You can choose not to believe me. However, a quick search on Google shows I'm not wrong . . .

How does a sandstorm happen?

Sandstorms occur when winds strengthen to the point where they're able to lift grains of sand off the ground and blow them through the air.

Apart from his attacks, Ajeel's durability also remains the same as before. If Ajeel was to employ sand world in this battle royale, Elfman can simply activate sand beast soul and thrive in such an environment. Unlike the other participants, Elfman will not be hindered in the sand storm. Instead, he'd thrive in it.

Ok, think of the every battle that occurred in FT.
About 90% of them were the normal land mass, which has plenty of sand. A "typical" battlefield will contain significant amount of sand. A typical battlefield = sand + hard ground + a bunch of plants + maybe buildings.
Unless you specifically choose a battlefield to remove any advantages anyone has, Ajeel by default has field advantage.
And like I said, if you'd want to, assume a battlefield with zero sand. Ajeel creates sand world and this results in the same scenario.

Nonsense.

Majority of the fights in FT did not and does not take place in a location with significant amount of sand. You are again making things up to suit your narrative.

Spoiler

Natsu, Lucy and Happy vs Bora - Hargeon town: Large port in Fiore
Natsu and Lucy vs Vulcan-possessed Macao - Mt. Hakobe: Large snowy mountain with blizzards
Natsu vs the Vanish bros - Inside Everlue mansion: A large multiple-storeys residence
Lucy and Happy vs Everlue - Inside Everlue mansion: See above
Lucy and Natsu vs Everlue - Inside Everlue mansion: See above
Natsu vs Kageyama - On a train heading to Clover town
Erza and Lucy vs Eisenwald - In the railway station in Oshibana town
Gray vs Rayule - In the railway station in Oshibana town
Natsu vs Erigor - Railway to Clover town
Natsu, Gray and Erza vs Lullaby - Clover town: A town situated in a mountainous area, surrounded by forests

These are the first 10 fights in the FT series, and it took until the 10th fight before a battle finally took place in a location where arguably there is plenty of sand. We can go on and on till the end of the series, and the ratio remains about the same. This is going to go into the pile of 'deceptive talk made up by @grey matter ' along with the 'Ajeel is immune to physical attacks' and 'Laxus can only travel but cannot attack in lightning form' arguments.

Yes, that's Ajeel in character.

I'm not talking about probability here, I'm just taking Ajeel the mage, and discarding Ajeel the character.

I assumed a typical battlefield. But like I said before, assume a neutral battlefield if you want. Say, all ground is level and made of concrete.
Ajeel simply uses sand world and we get the same scenario. Ajeel will have less to work with since ground is now taken away, but it doesn't make much difference

Also dig deep enough and we still get sand, rocks and hard ground lmao. Ajeel can turn stuff to sand too, he simply turns the current ground into sand and we reach a typical battlefield again.
But yeah, you can assume an invincible ground which Ajeel can't turn into sand. The battlefield has to be specifically prepared to take away Ajeel's advantage. Either it should happen on a flying battleship, or sea, or some ground which cannot be dusted by Ajeel. Kinda tells us something, doesn't it?

Anyway, it doesn't change too much in the end. Ajeel still whips out sand world and it will have the same effect.

What effect? Ajeel can whip out sand world all he wants. It's not going to increase his attack and durability. He will emerge from the sand storm quickly enough because he is always excited at the prospect of fighting somebody whom he feels is powerful. Ajeel also isn't immune to physical attacks. He was punched in the face by Natsu and sent crashing into the ship by Erza. The odds don't bode well for him.

It is not the same.

Because whether Brandish wants to fight in this way or not, there is no proof she even can do it in combat.

The only thing stopping Ajeel from fighting the way I described is his own character.

One uses their ability on their own element, inanimate and unable to resist. Which they have shown prior. The other acts on ANOTHER OPPONENT WHO CAN RESIST, and has never shown it in combat
If you still can't see the difference, it's on purpose for the sake of argument.

Notice how Dimaria mentioned expanding organs only for Natsu and not for Lucy? For Lucy she only mentioned "Brandish could've shrunk you and crushed".
That's because Natsu wasn't in battle, was powered down and Brandish backstabbed him who thought her an ally.
Brandish hasn't done organ burst in combat. And again, anyone claiming she can, must also concede Jellal one shotting everyone with self destruction spell or bind snake. Or Mest one shotting everyone through mind control. etc

Ok. Ignore anything I said about Ajeel hiding in Earth. Arguing over it is pointless, it isn't getting anywhere. Still doesn't make a difference, as Ajeel will do the same in sand world, which he DEMONSTRATED.
Now, the only thing that's preventing him from doing it is his character.

You made the claim that Ajeel could hide in Earth, yet you didn't show a panel of him doing that.

If you can accept that Ajeel doesn't hide in Earth, sure let's move on.

Actually no. I consider everyone in the battle royal as mages, while stripping them off their character.
They act in ways that best suits their chance for victory,

You're free to assume the same for any character you please. You can assume the same for Elfman.

Strip every mage in this battle royal of their character, and argue how Elfman outlasts Ajeel

By virtue of fact that Elfman is far stronger than Ajeel.

x792 Natsu could one-shot a Spriggan in Jacob with FDK demo fist.

Spoiler

And Jacob isn't a glass cannon like Neinhart. Neinhart, despite being enchanted, was defeated in two blows from Natsu. Jacob, on the other hand, could take several blows from Natsu's fire DS attacks and Lucy's Star dress: Tauros form without any injury.

Spoiler

This is x792 Natsu's strength without employing fire DS Magic, and Lucy's strength.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Jacob's durability should scale to Ajeel's since nothing shows that Ajeel is unique or stronger than the average Spriggan. x793 Natsu hurt himself after using FDK demo fist on Madmole. Skullion defeated x793 Gray with demon slayer markings. Neither Elfman and Mira nor Madmole and Skullion were injured by the end of their fight. However, Madmole and Skullion were left with a ton of scratches. From what we know, the only other time Madmole and Skullion had that many scratches on them were in their rematch with team Natsu. And in Madmole's case, after being on the end of FDK Purgatory from x793 Natsu.

Spoiler

During the time Elfman and Mira fought Skullion and Madmole, these fights happened and were concluded
- Natsu vs Wraith (and Makarov)
- Jellal running away with Erza from the church, then Erza running all the way back to the church
- Lucy, Gray, Juvia and Cana having a lengthy discussion trying to come up with a plan
- Laxus vs Kyria, then Erza
- Cana going around and trapping many FT members within her cards
- Natsu and Happy making their way to Faris in the middle city of Draseel

Basically they fought for a long time. And it was mentioned they were evenly matched.

Spoiler

Regardless of how the damage was dealt to both Madmole and Skullion (we can speculate all we want). The reality was their fight ended in a stalemate, and we know those scratches were dealt by Elfman and Mira. A little common sense should dictate that those two groups are around the same level of strength. Elfman's durability, stamina and endurance are in a different universe to somebody like Ajeel, who belongs in the same tier as Jacob and can be one-shot by a single FDK demo fist. This is undisputed.

Claims that Elfman will find himself a sitting duck in the battle royale couldn't be any further from the truth. How does a guy who can deal sufficient damage to put scratches on Madmole (and Skullion), when the one and only other time Madmole had that amount of scratches was due to x793 Natsu's FDK Purgatory, not be able to beat Ajeel? How does a guy who could engage in a such a lengthy fight with Madmole and Skullion suddenly find himself being defeated by Ajeel? And that's not even touching on the fact that he already beaten Ajeel a year ago, and had to fight Lucy, Loke and Virgo before engaging Skullion and Madmole. These make absolutely zero sense.

My God, not this again! I have lost count of how many times I've debunked this argument, usually made by Erza wankers.

VAST MAJORITY of damage dealt by Ajeel to Erza was done AFTER Marin's ability was done. This was because Ajeel was playing around until he got slashed a few times by wind/water swords.

If you doubt me, go re read the ENTIRE fight.

Erza whipped out wind and sea swords, and slashed Ajeel a few times after Marin got off'd. And Ajeel tanked them all, and he got slashed to begin with only because he was caught off guard. He was used to swords passing through him harmless, and turning them to dust, so he just stays and takes the hits

The fact that he still tanked all those slashes, while being unprepared and caught off guard, is a testament to Ajeel. He wasn't the typical Spriggan who was fodder in stats with high MP/hax. The guy actually could take hits and fight in combat.

And guess what happened later? He got serious, whipped out sand world and immediately defeated Erza

Take Marin away and nothing changes. Maybe a grand total 10% damage was done by Ajeel to Erza during this entire period if I'm being generous, he was casual AF during the entire time.



Yea, Ajeel was caught off guard by Jupiter. We've seen multiple times in the series that off guard attacks deal high damage to the victim.
Brandish stabbing August, Cobra one shotting Brain, Sting one shotting Bacchus etc

Jupiter Canon still didn't defeat him by the way, it did injure him. But what took him down was Nakagami from Erza, probably the second strongest form of Erza offensively after red pants (which she can't use because of Ajeel's sand body, Nakagami is needed to prevent any chance of him turning into sand).

Calm down. I haven't been on this forums for a while and I'm not too sure who you have debated with previously. It wasn't me, and I'm like the last person on Earth who will wank Erza lol. Anyway, repeating the same things over and over again doesn't mean you are correct though. Ajeel certainly did not tank Erza's slashes. I don't regard being slashed across your body and bleeding heavily from those wounds as 'tank', and I don't think you will find anybody in the world who do. 'Tank' an attack would be when Erza slash at Madmole's head, and it didn't affect him in the slightest. Once Erza was no longer unfairly denied access to her elemental weapons, she cut through Ajeel like a hot knife through butter.

Spoiler

Plus Ajeel definitely wasn't playing around like you are insinuating. He himself claimed he was legit pissed af. Straight from his mouth. He lost his temper!

Spoiler

Wall also remarked the fact that someone in the enemy troops has forced Ajeel to use his ultimate move.

Spoiler

Clearly Ajeel was going all out to win in his fight with Erza. And unlike Erza, Elfman has the perfect counter to sand world in his sand beast soul.

And again, I'm not arguing Ajeel is more durable than Elfman, no way. I'm saying Ajeel assimilates in sand world. Elfman is a big boi, getting even bigger with his takeovers. Surrounded by mages stronger than him, like Gildarts, Erza and Gray. How does he outlast Ajeel?

Did you seriously said there's no way Ajeel is as durable as Elfman. Then proceeded to ask how does Elfman outlast Ajeel? You cute boi

 

[LaGOAT]

How?


Why not? Gray was pretty ass in the Aldo arc . Also voting an for an underdog each round.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 5, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 5, 2021 ---

Nebal's most recent version has no magic

I see therefore u clearly no who stronger but ur doing this for the sake of debating the masses lol

 

[grey matter]

Did you seriously said there's no way Ajeel is as durable as Elfman. Then proceeded to ask how does Elfman outlast Ajeel? You cute boi

With this I've realized it's completely pointless to continue this debate.

You consider Ajeel in character, in which case he loses earlier than Elfman.
I consider Ajeel the mage, while stripping him off his character (which I do for everyone in the battle royal), in which case Ajeel outlasts Elfman.
That's that last I've got to say regarding these two