The scenario is if Gray hadn't demonized. We don't really know if Momento Mori simply doesn't work on demons. If it doesn't, then the spell would have only killed Gray had he not demonized. Either way, the maximum amount of hype for momento mori should only be a spell that can kill Natsu and Gray at best.
Well yea, if it doesn't work on demons, then Natsu himself would be killed. I think Gray was protected by Silver so he would stay alive in both cases.
God Serena can beat Ajeel. I have no problems with that. I don't know who would win between Brandish and Ajeel. Brandish can shrink Ajeel, but that doesn't change his MP level. Even at Marin's size, he can still summon up sandstorms - which would still have the effect of drying up his targets, and specifically in Brandish's case give her allergies. Just because Jacob and Dimaria have abilities that allow them easy victories, doesn't mean they stack up in actual combat. First things first, Age Seal is restricted in this tournament, and Jacob can only temporarily teleport his opponents. Under these conditions, Ajeel would outright beat Jacob. As for Dimaria, Sands of Death and Sand World should be give Dimaria a hard time regardless of the victor, and quite frankly what Ajeel did to Erza is more impressive than what Dimaria did to Wendy.
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Well that was the reason Mard gave. That demonizing was why Momento Mori didn't work. The debate is whether or not Natsu can be considered a demon.
Of course, I'm talking about without time hax. Anybody would lose to her in that regard. All I'm saying is that Kagura is Spriggan Level. If we include Dimaria's Time Magic, then she is possibly stronger than Spriggan Level due to hax. Anyways, Dimaria's Time Magic is restricted in this tournament so to argue about it is pointless.
Actually, Kagura should be very close to Erza's level in terms of feats. Neither Kagura nor Erza could defeat each other in the GMG. It took the interference of Minerva to eliminate Kagura. If I recalled their fight correctly, Erza blocked Kagura's Archenemy Unsheathed with her sword so we never really got to see it's full potential. In this regard, we can say that Erza and Kagura have comparable speed but power is unknown. However, Kagura also has some tricks of her own as well. She never used Gravity Magic against Erza. So assuming Erza were to use Nakagami Starlight, Kagura can just as easily render her useless by changing the gravity which gives her an open chance to hit Erza. Like I said, nothing here proves that Erza is stronger by much. Especially, since she didn't train as much as the others over the timeskip which is proven by her feats compared to the Laxus, TO Chelia, Jellal, Natsu, etc.
In my opinion, Kagura is easily on Erza's level by feats. Why? Because she has never lost to Erza in terms of feats (GMG Arc). There has never even been a scenario that proves otherwise. I don't know about you but in terms of feats, what has Mirajane shown to be on Erza's level? Don't get me wrong, I fully support the theory that Mirajane = Erza. That is exactly my point. Kagura has never shown anything to be below Mirajane who Hiro Mashima claims is easily on Erza's level. In my mind, I have always thought that Erza = Mirajane = Kagura. You guys may disagree but I think if we can say Mirajane is on Erza's level, we would be extremely biased to say Kagura isn't.
But here is the thing. How strong can you hype this? Mard Geer said it would be able to defeat Zeref. So far, we know Zeref is stronger than Current Natsu. This is my point. We have no idea exactly how strong this attack is and to say it is the third strongest spell is not backed by any feats whatsoever.
Totally agree. I am also in support of Kagura=Erza=Mirajane. In the end most of these "feats" are subjective as well, but I believe by portrayal that is the intent in terms of how we think the characters stack up against each other.Of course, I'm talking about without time hax. Anybody would lose to her in that regard. All I'm saying is that Kagura is Spriggan Level. If we include Dimaria's Time Magic, then she is possibly stronger than Spriggan Level due to hax. Anyways, Dimaria's Time Magic is restricted in this tournament so to argue about it is pointless.
Okay, I meant Ajeel's attacks. You know what I mean. Either way, that is different. Lucy shot numerous arrows from long range to counter all of Ajeel's flying sand monsters. Meanwhile, Kagura sliced all of Wahl's missiles within a second. Not comparable.
Actually, Kagura should be very close to Erza's level in terms of feats. Neither Kagura nor Erza could defeat each other in the GMG. It took the interference of Minerva to eliminate Kagura. If I recalled their fight correctly, Erza blocked Kagura's Archenemy Unsheathed with her sword so we never really got to see it's full potential. In this regard, we can say that Erza and Kagura have comparable speed but power is unknown. However, Kagura also has some tricks of her own as well. She never used Gravity Magic against Erza. So assuming Erza were to use Nakagami Starlight, Kagura can just as easily render her useless by changing the gravity which gives her an open chance to hit Erza. Like I said, nothing here proves that Erza is stronger by much. Especially, since she didn't train as much as the others over the timeskip which is proven by her feats compared to the Laxus, TO Chelia, Jellal, Natsu, etc.
Look at Erza's condition and then look at Kagura's. There is no telling who would win this. I agree that Second Origin would change this but at the same time, we have no idea how much Kagura trained over the timeskip. By feats though, I don't see her lagging behind Erza. Kagura never lost a
Erza beating Ajeel with her water/wind armor only tells us that she counters him and nothing more. I mean by that logic, then it would be really hard for someone like Wolfheim or Jura to even stand a chance against him. Gray, Gajeel, and Natsu is a little different because from the hype we've been getting, it seems like Natsu trained more than the other two. Still, I think Gray and Gajeel still have a chance to be close to Natsu's level so that would remain to be seen until we actually get feats from them.
In my opinion, Kagura is easily on Erza's level by feats. Why? Because she has never lost to Erza in terms of feats (GMG Arc). There has never even been a scenario that proves otherwise. I don't know about you but in terms of feats, what has Mirajane shown to be on Erza's level? Don't get me wrong, I fully support the theory that Mirajane = Erza. That is exactly my point. Kagura has never shown anything to be below Mirajane who Hiro Mashima claims is easily on Erza's level. I've always thought Erza = Mirajane = Kagura. You guys may disagree but I think if we can say Mirajane is on Erza's level, we would be extremely biased to say Kagura isn't.
But here is the thing. How strong can you hype this? Mard Geer said it would be able to defeat Zeref. So far, we know Zeref is stronger than Current Natsu. This is my point. We have no idea exactly how strong this attack is and to say it is the third strongest spell is not backed by any feats whatsoever.
I said Kagura overwhelmed Dimaria. That doesn't mean she is better. Overwhelming can happen both ways in a fight in case you didn't know. Besides, I don't even know how many times I've stated that they were comparable meaning they are more or less equal...
Again, where did I talk about Kagura tanking Wahl's missiles? All I was saying was that she is capable of going agains Wahl, thereby being Spriggan level. You need to read my post again because the Laxus comparison was a reply to another user who said that the rockets were fodder level due it being an unnamed attack. Nothing about my post says Kagura would tank it. Besides, she doesn't need to because as it was shown, she has the speed to block all of them without even breaking a sweat.
No, Wendy is different. She was clearly outclassed in power, attack, speed, and MP. The reason we can say Dimaria > Wendy is because we've already seen Wendy on the offensive and she did nothing to Dimaria. On the other hand, Kagura was on the defensive and still blocked Dimaria's attack. Kagura's feats exceed Wendy's by a lot in the past and even now.
Erza beat Minerva. Yes. Kagura? No. Minerva defeated her.
Kaguraa obviously didn't have a chance to go on the offensive like Wendy did. Besides, Dimaria didn't compliment Wendy because nothing about her MP, attack power, defense, or speed impresses her.
You realize that this statement is only to win this argument right? I bet you were against the idea of PoF when Erza used it in her other fights like Azuma. I know that Nakama Power is not power that is absorbed from your friends. That's absurd. The fact that she has an incredible power boost (one that can place her on a whole different tier) by thinking of her family is very illogical. Erza should just use that "strength" of hers to defeat Acnologia. Then we wouldn't have to argue who is stronger.
Nobody saved Erza because nobody was there to save her. It's that simple. Kagura, on the other hand, was surrounded by a friend and the friend of a friend. So would they just watch her get hit or do something. Nothing here hints that Kagura would get one-shotted by Neinhart. That needs some extensive proof. So being on the background automatically means that you need someone else stronger to beat your opponent? That is faulty logic. In that case, is Cana stronger than Lucy for actually being the one to take Brandish down while Lucy just stood there helplessly?
I rate current Erza much more superior than GMG Erza. I base this purely on the fact that Erza beat Ajeel with help; and Ajeel is far above the likes of Kyoka/Kagura/Minerva preskip, he's even better than arc bosses like Mard or Hades. Current Erza > SO Erza > GMG Kagura >= Pre-SO Erza or something like that. I believe Kagura is above Pre-SO Erza, but not SO Erza.Actually, Kagura should be very close to Erza's level in terms of feats. Neither Kagura nor Erza could defeat each other in the GMG. It took the interference of Minerva to eliminate Kagura. If I recalled their fight correctly, Erza blocked Kagura's Archenemy Unsheathed with her sword so we never really got to see it's full potential. In this regard, we can say that Erza and Kagura have comparable speed but power is unknown. However, Kagura also has some tricks of her own as well. She never used Gravity Magic against Erza. So assuming Erza were to use Nakagami Starlight, Kagura can just as easily render her useless by changing the gravity which gives her an open chance to hit Erza. Like I said, nothing here proves that Erza is stronger by much. Especially, since she didn't train as much as the others over the timeskip which is proven by her feats compared to the Laxus, TO Chelia, Jellal, Natsu, etc.
Look at Erza's condition and then look at Kagura's. There is no telling who would win this. I agree that Second Origin would change this but at the same time, we have no idea how much Kagura trained over the timeskip. By feats though, I don't see her lagging behind Erza. Kagura never lost a
Erza beating Ajeel with her water/wind armor only tells us that she counters him and nothing more. I mean by that logic, then it would be really hard for someone like Wolfheim or Jura to even stand a chance against him. Gray, Gajeel, and Natsu is a little different because from the hype we've been getting, it seems like Natsu trained more than the other two. Still, I think Gray and Gajeel still have a chance to be close to Natsu's level so that would remain to be seen until we actually get feats from them.
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Feats have subjectivity I agree. Each feat has a range of interpretation, and everyone has their own way of thinking. This will always cause a difference in opinion about who is better.
Ajeel vs. Brandish - Ajeel. Brandish cant use magic on somebody like Ajeel or Juvia.
Fair enough. I agree that Ajeel is stronger than anybody pre-timeskip. You have your opinions so I won't try to influence you. However, I will say that if Kagura is not even SO Erza's level (who is on par with Kyōka), then she is fodder level right now. Mard Geer who is barely even on a Spriggan's level was many times stronger than Kyōka. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that if Kagura was truly that weak, her fate should have ended like Sabertooth and Blue Pegasus which by feats, doesn't seem to be the case.
Well, this could be interpreted in many different ways. First, Bluenote might not have trained since his last appearance (portrayed), so that is why his magic is weak while everyone surpassed him already. Second, Current Kagura should be above pre-timeskip Bluenote by now in terms of MP. Lastly, like you said Erza doesn't even come close to X792 Natsu and due her lack in power (not being able to beat a Spriggan like everyone else), she might not be much stronger than pre-timeskip Gildarts, given that this is only speculation.
That is true. Kagura doesn't have many feats so I can see why you claim this isn't a feat-based assumption. However, I would disagree that we can't incorporate any feat-based assumptions into this tournament/ranking. I take into account the fact that she was never given a chance to show her powers like every other side character except Chelia. However, I think that based on what we've seen so far, she has shown the most (feats) out of every other side character, to suggest that she is on Erza's level. Even so, she was on par with Erza in the past. And this was by feats. I don't see why she would be lagging that much behind Erza right now, when Erza was sort of a disappointment. Besides, she has shown many times that she can take on a Spriggan. She even sliced through Neinhart's fodders just like Erza. If Hiro Mashima really wanted to portray Erza and Kagura differently, he could have kept the scene where Erza sliced Neinhart's knight in half, but instead made Kagura only cut a body part like the face.
In my opinion, Jura is barely comparable to the Gods of Ishgar. While Warrod trapped God Serena, the majority of Jura's attacks just destroyed Warrod's Tree Magic before actually hitting God Serena. Meanwhile, the others actually did something to God Serena. So to me, it seems clear that Kagura is at least on Jura's level. Again, is Erza stronger than Jura? Keep in mind that Jura was fighting God Serena, not Ajeel.
Yes, Second Origin changes the dynamics of Kagura's and Erza's fight in the GMG. But ever since the most recent timeskip, what has prevented Kagura from catching up to Erza? Second Origin, at this point, is not a factor anymore. It's seems like you can't grasp this logic. You should note that Erza was barely able to take on Ajeel while everyone else defeated a Spriggan by themselves. Why? Maybe we should consider the fact that Erza didn't train as much over the timeskip. On the contrary, we see Kagura at least fight a Spriggan without any major difficulties. Maybe she trained over the timeskip, right? We can use past feats as a reference to the current arc (like I did), but we can't use it as a way of proving anything right now (like you did).This whole Kagura is Spirggan tier bullshit needs to stop. For one thing, Erza and Kagura were NEVER EQUALS. The Erza who fought Kagura was Erza not using second origin and considering Natsu's group with Erza included didn't get any training before the game this is essentially Erza at her pre-skip strength, while Erza with second origin would have beaten Kagura handily. As for everyone assuming that because they looked relatively close pre skip that it will be the same after the time skip?
If you've read battle manga before it shouldn't be rocket science to know the main cast has a higher growth rate than side characters. A prime example of this is Minvera, everyone says she was Erza tier during GMG gets demon powers on top of her own in the next arc and Erza beats her still as well with even less difficulty than their last fight nor has she shown she's anywhere near Erza's current strength.
Kagura was overwhelmed by easily by just Dimaria's magic power get this Kagura is Spirggan tier mess out of here.
Fair enough, but ultimately we all have opinions that are a mix of both, discerning that can be difficult, and honestly people should just vote for who they think are the 4 strongest fighters imo. All this debate is unlikely to change peoples minds, but is fun though.
Just on Neinhart's knights, Hiro did portray Erza as weakened by constant references to her injuries. But also the knights were fodder. It's no different to Gajeel/Natsu beating Ajeel's crew with similar ease. It's good portrayal, but personally not enough for to draw any equality when it comes to high end moves.
Jura kept up with them by portrayal. His hits on God Serena were just like Wolfheims. By that logic Warrod was better than Wolfheim and Jura too. At the end of the day Jura's endurance and durability is very comparable to the GoI... though I'm not sure how good their durability/endurance (it's probably around the Bluenote mark or a bit higher).
What? Did you just ignore EVERYTHING I wrote about growth rate? I'm not surprised, why isn't second origin a factor? The power up from it didn't vanish at all while what reason should I believe Kagura who was a whole lot weaker than Erza pre skip and who should have the low growth rate should catch up? Erza was barely able to take on Ajeel while the only other people who have beat Spirggan have had either a power up, help or they have always been stronger than Erza and is no surprise they're stronger now. Kagura fought a Spirggan without any difficulty? Where was this because this wasn't against Dimaria, Kagura was easily overwhelmed by her magic power and stripped when Dimaria could have killed her.
1.) Laxus. He's obviously the strongest in this match up anyone who says otherwise is delusional.
2.) Ajeel. He the only other person who's Spriggan level and most of the others offense will be useless against him.
3.) Mira. I was tempted to put Mard but I'll give Mira the benifit of the doubt and assume she's grown above Mard.
4.) Mard Geer. Shouldn't need to explain.
Oh and the shit I've been in this thread already
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Leave him, he doesn't get the concept of attack potency.
That's right. Feats and portrayals there are all information sources, and our ways of thinking will determine our overall interpretation.
I definitely agree with that, i was never trying to imply these discussions are pointless, quite the opposite actually. The vast majority of the time i like talking with people about this stuff, even if i don't agree with them. At times like you said i even change my opinion, because someone saw something i did not. We are off topic though i guess haha.
Okay, my bad. I didn't see the part about growth rate. But either way, how can you say for certain that main characters have superior growth rate? Growth rates can range and depends on the individual themselves. It has nothing to do with side characters or main characters. For example, Erza would have lost against a Spriggan like Ajeel. Right now, she is portrayed to have a lower growth rate than most. Meanwhile, everyone else is being hyped. Nonetheless, they were able to defeat the Spriggans. Also, Jura went from having a little bit of trouble against Oración Seis to being one of the strongest mages. His growth rate is pretty significant. There are many other characters who improved a lot as well like Lyon, Meredy, Gajeel, Mirajane, etc.
You're joking about the first two fights, right?
That wasn't what you said. I quoted your exact words. Anyway, even with this statement, you're implying the same thing. If you're overwhelming someone, that means you're better and again, how did Kagura even remotely do this? She parried an attack. That was literally all. How does that translate to overwhelm and you said overwhelm Kagura which means you're talking in a general sense. I fail to see the connection here.
That's hasty conclusion. Wahl used one attack there (rockets). He intended for that attack to mass wipe out fodder. Regardless of how powerful the rockets may seem, it wasn't an attack intended for those that are powerful. That is, he didn't use the attack with the intention to KO an opponent he considered a serious threat. Kagura slicing the missiles is impressive but it doesn't in anyway indicate that she can take on a wahl. The issue is that you're taking single instances and jumping to somewhat extreme conclusions. Blocking/evading a single attack doesn't make you equal to the attacker.
Why is Wendy different? You're referencing Kagura blocking Dimaria's strike as one to imply she's equal. Wendy literally kicked Dimaria in the face. She was fast enough to do so without Dimaria being able to block. However, we saw how that turned out eventually. My point? A single instance doesn't imply the conclusion will be the same. Dimaria took a DF powered kick to the face and came out unscathed. We only say now that Wendy is weaker since we saw the end but if Mashima had left us only with that panel of Wendy kicking Dimaria, then we'd be in the same position as with Kagura.
Not sure where you got this from. I never said it was a reference to attack power. I know it's a reference to Mp.
Erza had practically defeated Kagura when Minerva stepped in (that's why Minerva came to begin with) and then Erza still had enough in the tank to defeat Minerva (who finished off Kagura). Point still stands.
Well she got kicked in the face, hardly going to impress her. Also, she doesn't have to praise Wendy when we have panels that prove Wendy was able to land a successful hit on Dimaria.
Nope, it's not for the sake of this argument. I never said I entirely like the idea of PoF but the fact remains that it's legit. Erza has proved consistently that she can go beyond her limits when she fights. Mashima apparently said the same thing in an interview, that is, that Erza's determination can help her best an opponent who would normally be stronger. We've seen this consistently so there's no need to act like PoF doesn't exist. It's a legit ability for Erza. Obviously there's a cap on it. No need for sarcasm.
Again, you're missing the point. You're implying Jellal hindered Kagura when he was in fact saving her. Also, I didn't say she would get one shotted. I said she need to be saved and we know she has nowhere near the endurance and durability of Erza. See, that's the same logic you're using with your earlier claims of Kagura being able to best Wahl and Dimaria in those fields. There's no exclusive proof to that.
1). If they'd fight, yes. It's an example, not canon.
