Group Group C

[Kurumi Tokisaki]

I won't be surprised if he is writing for just 10 year olds cause i never once heard anyone swore in the anime and before the new season came out i only saw 1 drop of blood in the past 277 episodes + POF lol

Another problem with FT is fight the grunts FRESH but fight the main boss injured. SBT Acno vs DS + Natsu. He is fighting the final villain with burned arm.

 

[Vex_Haid]

Another problem with FT is fight the grunts FRESH but fight the main boss injured. SBT Acno vs DS + Natsu. He is fighting the final villain with burned arm.

And the fight ended horribly and acno didn't get the chance to shine as the last boss nor could zeref as he got ruined horribly and never got to shine in his last form despite us knowing him since the 8th episode and him being the main villain of fairy tail.

 

[grey matter]

That's the thing Acno and Irene are both dragon slayers and their dragon forms are essentially their DF. Of course they'll get a huge boost from it

Maybe they are stronger in their dragon forms not denying that, but clearly not by much, considering when Selene was flexing. Merc said this is the true power of a DG, basically implying the power Human Selene was using > Nerfed Aldo and Merc.

MP doesn't change.
Stats do.

dragon Selene should be >> human Selene in stats

dragon Merc should be above human Selene in stats, even if his MP is lower. Aldo dragon? Maybe, the guy got nerfed to oblivion on top of waking up nerfed to begin with

Yes, possibly.

I think he can give him scratches if Acnologia underestimate Suzaku, just like with Selene's cheek. And yes, a low diff seems possible : his stamina and durability are incredible. Suzaku is a monster, for sure.

I think Suzaku can do far more than just a cut to cheek with his final attack.

Suzaku's all out attack would, instead of doing this:

Spoiler

Would do something like this to Acnologia instead:

Spoiler

i.e, would do decent damage and cause non insignificant injury. But ultimately, Acno would be fine and destroy an exhausted Suzaku.

I won't be surprised if he is writing for just 10 year olds cause i never once heard anyone swore in the anime and before the new season came out i only saw 1 drop of blood in the past 277 episodes + POF lol

No blood, but tits overload and weird fetishes are fine for 10 year old? Weird. But anyway, it's just anime producers' logic. Mashima shows plenty of blood in manga

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 12, 2021 ---

Um, you do realize Merc was basically only <= half of his power, right? This implies that it would have taken Ignia powered Natsu at the very least mid difficulty to defeat a full-powered Mercphobia. You're making it sound like Mercphobia was at full power, hell, he wasn't even in his right mind, he was running off of instinct alone, which makes him a worse fighter than he otherwise would have been, look at Acno when he was on autopilot for example, he was just a mindless beast wreaking havoc, same with Merc.

It is an impressive feat because both Mercphobia and Aldoron were nerfed and took extreme difficulty to defeat. If it wasn't for Ignia, <=50% mindless Mercphobia would have stomped Team Natsu into oblivion, while Selene is at her full power, and in her Human Form her full power should scale to around nerfed Dragon Mercphobia.

This exactly.

And it should be noted that Merc wasn't <= 50%. He was strictly < 50% based on Ignia's words "he isn't even using half his powers".
And he was acting purely on instinct, and likely didn't use any spell he knew other than random physical attacks and default roar.

Which makes it all the more impressive. That he no diff'd x793 team Natsu, and no sold every single attack from them with slayer advantage. While having no brains, and at <50% his powers.
Comparisons to Spriggans is utterly ridiculous, when a top 2 Spriggan can get one shotted by slayer advantage from x792 Erza.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 12, 2021 ---

If you're talking about just Selene, you're talking about all Dragon Gods, they were stated to be relative to each other, and unlike Spriggans, we have no proof otherwise yet. Merc was nerfed from the start, and Aldoron was nerfed from the start and gradually grew weaker as the God Seeds was taken out.

This too.

The statement about Spriggans was from GOI, not from Zeref or any Spriggans. And it was based on how strong they thought GS was. Later we see, GOI didn't even know how strong God Serena was. Serena was far beyond their expectations in his base. They didn't know about his DS powers either. And going DS mode made him even stronger, allowing him to instantly power out of Hyperion's hax

While the statements about DGs being relative to each other are from:
- Elefseria
- Merc
- Selene herself. Outright stating that a fight between her and another DG can go either way.

 

[Vex_Haid]

MP doesn't change.
Stats do.

dragon Selene should be >> human Selene in stats

dragon Merc should be above human Selene in stats, even if his MP is lower. Aldo dragon? Maybe, the guy got nerfed to oblivion on top of waking up nerfed to begin with



I think Suzaku can do far more than just a cut to cheek with his final attack.

Suzaku's all out attack would, instead of doing this:

Spoiler

Would do something like this to Acnologia instead:

Spoiler

i.e, would do decent damage and cause non significant injury. But ultimately, Acno would be fine and destroy an exhausted Suzaku.

Suzaku is not doing shit to acno or even damaging him the slightest even if he did knock out selene, selene does not have magic immunity like acnologia and suzaku sword is basically powered up by magic so acnologia will just eat it lol


No blood, but tits overload and weird fetishes are fine for 10 year old? Weird. But anyway, it's just anime producers' logic. Mashima shows plenty of blood in manga

Yeah ik, not calling FT an ass anime just saying that it has weird moments sometimes

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 12, 2021 ---

The statement about Spriggans was from GOI, not from Zeref or any Spriggans. And it was based on how strong they thought GS was. Later we see, GOI didn't even know how strong God Serena was. Serena was far beyond their expectations in his base. They didn't know about his DS powers either. And going DS mode made him even stronger, allowing him to instantly power out of Hyperion's hax

While the statements about DGs being relative to each other are from:
- Elefseria
- Merc
- Selene herself. Outright stating that a fight between her and another DG can go either way.
[/QUOTE]

Ok maybe they aren't equal but they just aren't to far off in stats

Imo it can go like selene>aldoron>ignia>=<mercphobia, or maybe ignia>>aldoron>selene>mercphobia. ignia is impossible to rank cause whenever natsu eats someones flames he mostly becomes stronger then his opponent

mercphobia has to be the weakest dragon god, ignia still needs more feats and between selene and aldoron its debatable

 

[grey matter]

Imo it can go like selene>aldoron>ignia>=<mercphobia, or maybe ignia>>aldoron>selene>mercphobia. ignia is impossible to rank cause whenever natsu eats someones flames he mostly becomes stronger then his opponent

mercphobia has to be the weakest dragon god, ignia still needs more feats and between selene and aldoron its debatable

Some DGs maybe stronger than the others. I expect Ignia to be the strongest for obvious reasons, or maybe Viernes because he's the most mysterious.
But regardless, all of them are in the same tier. No DG is beating another without high-extreme diff
And I agree about Natsu's dynamic with eating flames. He always seem to get more power than whatever is in the flames that he ate.

Why is Merc the weakest?
He no diff'd entire team Natsu and he wasn't even at half his full power. And was acting on pure instinct.
Full power Merc isn't necessarily the weakest.
But if you're talking about Merc in his nerfed form? Sure, he's the weakest.

 

[Ronin31]

I think Suzaku can do far more than just a cut to cheek with his final attack.

Suzaku's all out attack would, instead of doing this:

Would do something like this to Acnologia instead:

i.e, would do decent damage and cause non insignificant injury. But ultimately, Acno would be fine and destroy an exhausted Suzaku.

Yes, I understand your meanings and I can agree.

I hope Suzaku's hype won't be broken too soon. He has good charism and is an interesting character. Reminds me some "Mihawk" from One Piece. I hope the three others will be as charismatic as him.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 12, 2021 ---

Some DGs maybe stronger than the others. I expect Ignia to be the strongest for obvious reasons, or maybe Viernes because he's the most mysterious.
But regardless, all of them are in the same tier. No DG is beating another without high-extreme diff
And I agree about Natsu's dynamic with eating flames. He always seem to get more power than whatever is in the flames that he ate.

Why is Merc the weakest?
He no diff'd entire team Natsu and he wasn't even at half his full power. And was acting on pure instinct.
Full power Merc isn't necessarily the weakest.
But if you're talking about Merc in his nerfed form? Sure, he's the weakest.

By Selene's words, all the DG are equal. Like she said, she can possibly kill one but also die in the action to reverse the DG.
Like you say, yes, Mercphobia is not necessary the weakest of them because he was the first to appear against the group. He was nerfed hardly : less than 50% of his powers, mindless. Even Ignia said he was a joke to his real one and mocked him.

Like classic Spriggans by analogy, DG are equal in MP stats.
Their habilities or Hax can be above one under circumstances : that doesn't mean this one is stronger than the others. It's more about elemental's properties.

 

[grey matter]

By Selene's words, all the DG are equal. Like she said, she can possibly kill one but also die in the action to reverse the DG.
Like you say, yes, Mercphobia is not necessary the weakest of them because he was the first to appear against the group. He was nerfed hardly : less than 50% of his powers, mindless. Even Ignia said he was a joke to his real one and mocked him.

Like classic Spriggans by analogy, DG are equal in MP stats.
Their habilities or Hax can be above one under circumstances : that doesn't mean this one is stronger than the others. It's more about elemental's properties.

Yep. Selene's words should seal the deal in this topic. Elefseria's and Merc's statements merely added value to it

I think for Spriggans it's different. Because typically they are fodder with OP hax, with exceptions like Serena who is pure stats with zero hax. Spriggans like Dimaria and Jacob can one shot people in their tier.
For DGs, it's different, because too much hax isn't involved as far as we know. And Selene's words (as well as Elefseria's) is more suggestive towards their overall combat stats as well, apart from MP. If they engage in combat, it can truly go either way with an extreme diff fight. Not like Dimaria one shotting Brandish within a second because of hax.

 

[Hexbend]

MP doesn't change.
Stats do.

dragon Selene should be >> human Selene in stats

dragon Merc should be above human Selene in stats, even if his MP is lower. Aldo dragon? Maybe, the guy got nerfed to oblivion on top of waking up nerfed to begin with

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 12, 2021 ---

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 12, 2021 ---

Mp does change stats though and it makes no sense for such nerfed DGs to be above a another DG at their full power even when in human form.

Merc statements are already enough proof Human Selene >>> Nerfed DGs

 

[grey matter]

Mp does change stats though and it makes no sense for such nerfed DGs to be above a another DG at their full power even when in human form.

Merc statements are already enough proof Human Selene >>> Nerfed DGs

Increasing MP change stats. You take x and increase it's MP, it's stats will increase. But x and y having same MP doesn't imply x and y have same stats, Aveage Spriggans are proof, high MP but fodder stats
Dragon form has greater stats than human form purely because one is a dragon with inherently higher stats lmao. Stats of a dragon with same MP >> a human with same MP

Merc's statement only proves Selene's MP > their nerfed selves. Nothing about stats

 

[Hexbend]

Increasing MP change stats. You take x and increase it's MP, it's stats will increase. But x and y having same MP doesn't imply x and y have same stats, Aveage Spriggans are proof, high MP but fodder stats
Dragon form has greater stats than human form purely because one is a dragon with inherently higher stats lmao. Stats of a dragon with same MP >> a human with same MP

Merc's statement only proves Selene's MP > their nerfed selves. Nothing about stats

And if you decrease MP, you decrease stats....don't know what Spriggans with their hax & their exceptions have to do here. Not even all of them had fodder stats

Except the DGs aren't humans going dragon form (basically their DF). So their boost from reverting back wouldn't be as big as Acno or Irene. Your talking as their in the same situation as those two.

It's clear what the intention was when Merc was talking. Makes no sense that Human Selene with FP would be weaker stat wise to a nerfed Merc and Aldo. Do you believe nerfed GS Aldo would beat Human Selene at her strongest? Because that's what your saying...makes no sense narrative wise and power scaling wise either.

 

[grey matter]

Except the DGs aren't humans going dragon form (basically their DF). So their boost from reverting back wouldn't be as big as Acno or Irene. Your talking as their in the same situation as those two.

It's clear what the intention was when Merc was talking. Makes no sense that Human Selene with FP would be weaker stat wise to a nerfed Merc and Aldo. Do you believe nerfed GS Aldo would beat Human Selene at her strongest? Because that's what your saying...makes no sense narrative wise and power scaling wise either.

But they are going to human form, thereby decreasing their stats. (They probably do that because they want to interact with humans, since their species is near extinct and can't form tribes of their own)
Humans going dragon form increase their stats because dragons are inherently superior to humans. Their stats scale up by their base (which is human).
In the same way dragons going to human form decrease their stats because humans are inherently inferior to dragons. Therefore their stats scale down from their base (which is dragon).


Merc was clearly commenting on her MP, because that's all he can sense.
100% human Selene is likely above dragon Aldo in stats, because he was massively nerfed on top of waking up nerfed.
But 100% human Selene is probably below nerfed Merc, because while Merc was nerfed to < 50%, I consider transforming to human an even bigger nerf to stats.

 

[Hexbend]

But they are going to human form, thereby decreasing their stats. (They probably do that because they want to interact with humans, since their species is near extinct and can't form tribes of their own)
Humans going dragon form increase their stats because dragons are inherently superior to humans. Their stats scale up by their base (which is human).
In the same way dragons going to human form decrease their stats because humans are inherently inferior to dragons. Therefore their stats scale down from their base (which is dragon).


Merc was clearly commenting on her MP, because that's all he can sense.
100% human Selene is likely above dragon Aldo in stats, because he was massively nerfed on top of waking up nerfed.
But 100% human Selene is probably below nerfed Merc, because while Merc was nerfed to < 50%, I consider transforming to human an even bigger nerf to stats.

Baseless to assume the decrease and increase is the same for actual dragons & dragon slayers.

Yea, and it's clear what the intention is and what is being implied. That Selene power is greater than nerfed Mercs. Thus Human Selene > Nerfed Merc

 

[Vex_Haid]

Some DGs maybe stronger than the others. I expect Ignia to be the strongest for obvious reasons, or maybe Viernes because he's the most mysterious.
But regardless, all of them are in the same tier. No DG is beating another without high-extreme diff
And I agree about Natsu's dynamic with eating flames. He always seem to get more power than whatever is in the flames that he ate.

Why is Merc the weakest?
He no diff'd entire team Natsu and he wasn't even at half his full power. And was acting on pure instinct.
Full power Merc isn't necessarily the weakest.
But if you're talking about Merc in his nerfed form? Sure, he's the weakest.

Merc might be the weakest, in 50% of his power he got low-mid diffed by a portion of ignia flame natsu now there are 3 options

1. those flames made natsu stronger then ignia cause whenever he eats someones fire he becomes stronger then the user

2. those flames were only a fraction of ignias powers and they only made natsu as strong as a fraction of ignia (probably like 1/10 of ignias power)

3. eating those flames made natsu a bit stronger then a portion of ignias power, lets say ignia let natsu eat 1/10 of his fire but that fire boost made natsu as strong as 3/10 of ignias power (just a guess)

I'm leaning more towards the 3rd options honestly cause then it would make sense since we know that merc used 5/10 of his full power and if those flames did make natsu as strong as 3/10 of ignias power then it would only make sense due to natsus performance against 50% merc (he low-mid diffed him) so i'm guessing if Ignia was using 10/10 of his power and so was merc and he had a clear mind this time then i am guessing that it would take ignia mid-high diff to beat merc

however is the 1st option is right then ignia is the weakest dragon god, and if the second option is right then ignia is able to basically no diff other dragon gods, also if you think that full power merc is not the weakest then who do u think is the weakest?

 

[grey matter]

Baseless to assume the decrease and increase is the same for actual dragons & dragon slayers.

Yea, and it's clear what the intention is and what is being implied. That Selene power is greater than nerfed Mercs. Thus Human Selene > Nerfed Merc

That logic works both ways you know.

It was merely about her MP.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 12, 2021 ---

Merc might be the weakest, in 50% of his power he got low-mid diffed by a portion of ignia flame natsu now there are 3 options

1. those flames made natsu stronger then ignia cause whenever he eats someones fire he becomes stronger then the user

2. those flames were only a fraction of ignias powers and they only made natsu as strong as a fraction of ignia (probably like 1/10 of ignias power)

3. eating those flames made natsu a bit stronger then a portion of ignias power, lets say ignia let natsu eat 1/10 of his fire but that fire boost made natsu as strong as 3/10 of ignias power (just a guess)

I'm leaning more towards the 3rd options honestly cause then it would make sense since we know that merc used 5/10 of his full power and if those flames did make natsu as strong as 3/10 of ignias power then it would only make sense due to natsus performance against 50% merc (he low-mid diffed him) so i'm guessing if Ignia was using 10/10 of his power and so was merc and he had a clear mind this time then i am guessing that it would take ignia mid-high diff to beat merc

however is the 1st option is right then ignia is the weakest dragon god, and if the second option is right then ignia is able to basically no diff other dragon gods, also if you think that full power merc is not the weakest then who do u think is the weakest?

I get what you're saying.

But there is another possibility, which rings more true to me

Ignia gave him say 1/5 of his powers. Which probably translated to 30% Ignia's power to natsu, cause that's how Mashima makes eating fire works

As we saw against Aldo, DF Natsu without anyone supplying him MP is already at like 30% DG.

This makes DF Natsu at like 60% DG level, when combining both his natural DF powers, and whatever he ate from Ignia

Merc was < 50%, say he was at 45% his full power

Natsu at 60% DG level, plus slayer advantage, low-mid diff'd 45% Merc. Which is reasonable.
While also preserving Merc's portrayal

Anyway, this is just me making sense of what happened there.
For all we know, Mashima probably did what he did because he thought "it was cool"

 

[Vex_Haid]

That logic works both ways you know.

It was merely about her MP.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 12, 2021 ---

I get what you're saying.

But there is another possibility, which rings more true to me

Ignia gave him say 1/5 of his powers. Which probably translated to 30% Ignia's power to natsu, cause that's how Mashima makes eating fire works

As we saw against Aldo, DF Natsu without anyone supplying him MP is already at like 30% DG.

This makes DF Natsu at like 60% DG level, when combining both his natural DF powers, and whatever he ate from Ignia

Merc was < 50%, say he was at 45% his full power

Natsu at 60% DG level, plus slayer advantage, low-mid diff'd 45% Merc. Which is reasonable.
While also preserving Merc's portrayal

Anyway, this is just me making sense of what happened there.
For all we know, Mashima probably did what he did because he thought "it was cool"

lol yeah i guess that ur makes more sense then mine and mashima probably did that cause he didn't know a way to defeat merc without natsu getting a powerup and he probably knew that POF was not gonna work this time

 

[Hexbend]

That logic works both ways you know.

It was merely about her MP.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 12, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 12, 2021 ---

Burden of proof is on you

Yes, and how great a FP DG power is...the intentions are clear as day. Makes no sense that a dragons human form would be so much weaker than it's original form even with much greater MP.

 

[Jko]

Acno isn't getting scratched by Suzaku.

 

[grey matter]

Burden of proof is on you

Yes, and how great a FP DG power is...the intentions are clear as day. Makes no sense that a dragons human form would be so much weaker than it's original form even with much greater MP.

It's on you as well. You do realize you made the opposite claim too, right?

The intentions are about her full potential, which she didn't use cause she's in Human Form now. She has all her MP, but not all her stats.
Yeah it would. Higher MP doesn't mean higher stats. A dragon with same MP > a human with same MP.
Also, it wouldn't make any sense that Suzaku defeated peak Selene. It has to be because Human Selene < dragon Selene

 

[Hexbend]

It's on you as well. You do realize you made the opposite claim too, right?

The intentions are about her full potential, which she didn't use cause she's in Human Form now. She has all her MP, but not all her stats.
Yeah it would. Higher MP doesn't mean higher stats. A dragon with same MP > a human with same MP.
Also, it wouldn't make any sense that Suzaku defeated peak Selene. It has to be because Human Selene < dragon Selene

No, your the one claiming that the dragon slayers and dragons transformations work the same. Thus you must provide proof, not me who's opposing it.

Her full potential? Merc was talking about her power atm, not her potential (makes no sense). Merc can't see them, he's just feeling their power. Higher MP having lesser stats is a rare case, which again you would have to prove is the case for the DGs too. As for the bolded....were talking about Selene in her human form at FP compared to two vastly nerfed DGs. Not all three at FP with Selene being in human form, so that's pointless.

Or maybe Suzaku is that strong Seriously though, look what I told Ronin. I'm not arguing that their human forms = dragon forms, I'm arguing that the difference between them isn't as vast as your making out to be like Dragon Slayers using Dragon Force. The only thing, I see a dragon gaining from reverting back to their original form is a physical boost in strength and defense due to scales. ,Their magic isn't gonna somehow change, even then I'd argue Human Selene at FP is still physically stronger than two nerfed DGs.

 

[grey matter]

No, your the one claiming that the dragon slayers and dragons transformations work the same. Thus you must provide proof, not me who's opposing it.

I merely said they follow similar logic. In that, dragons are inherently far superior to humans. Nowhere did I say the scaling is identical. I just said it should be somewhat comparable.
Also, you made the claim that dragon to human transformation is a smaller nerf, compared to buff from human to dragon transformation. Where is the proof of that? I see you giving arguments for your position, but it's all just theories based on what's shown in the series, Both yours and mine, No point asking for proof, cause Mashima gave us none.

Her full potential? Merc was talking about her power atm, not her potential (makes no sense). Merc can't see them, he's just feeling their power.

The only power level he can sense is MP. In fact, MP is everything someone else can sense from another entity in the series.
By potential I mean what she's capable of. If she had used that MP in dragon form, it's an entirely different story. There is no way Merc could know if she's dragon or human at the moment, all he sense is her MP

Higher MP having lesser stats is a rare case

Used to be, until Alverez arc

which again you would have to prove is the case for the DGs too.

Easily.

Stats in dragon form >> stats in human form, because dragons are an inherently superior species

As for the bolded....were talking about Selene in her human form at FP compared to two vastly nerfed DGs. Not all three at FP with Selene being in human form, so that's pointless.

Yes, and I'm saying the stats is Merc is probably higher.

Merc was < 50%. Lets say 45% for the sake of argument.

I consider dragon to human transformation a nerf to less than 45%. Just basing on the logic that Selene's dragon form is a tier or more above her human form.

I think Aldoron was nerfed to like 15% towards the end, so I consider human Selene to be above him, since I consider the nerf from transforming to human to be not below 15%

Or maybe Suzaku is that strong

I would've considered that possibility if Suzaku was the strongest member of Diabolos. But there is George, who is a tier or more above Suzaku. If Suzaku is at that level, that makes George significantly superior to DGs in dragon form, which doesn't make sense from the narrative POV.

I predict George to be full power DG level (maybe he's Viernes), and black knights a tier or more below him,

Seriously though, look what I told Ronin. I'm not arguing that their human forms = dragon forms, I'm arguing that the difference between them isn't as vast as your making out to be like Dragon Slayers using Dragon Force. The only thing, I see a dragon gaining from reverting back to their original form is a physical boost in strength and defense due to scales. ,Their magic isn't gonna somehow change, even then I'd argue Human Selene at FP is still physically stronger than two nerfed DGs.

Sure, ok. If you're saying human to dragon is a superior transformation, because it includes change in MP as well. I see where you're coming from.
Even then, the boost to MP for humans in dragon force, pales in comparison to change in stats. The dramatic change in stats is what makes DF so dangerous.

All I'm saying is difference in stats is still vast though, even keeping MP constant.
Dragon form's physical strength, speed, durability etc are far superior to human form's. Meaning, dragon Selene >> human Selene.
If you think the gap isn't as big as a human in dragon form, that's fine too. But the gap is still large enough to make dragon form of DG a different tier from human form of DG,