Group Group D Battle Royale

[Arjuna]

That's bullshit. Read more carefully. Her magic and abilities are the splitting image of the real Ur.

Yes, they have the same power.

Do they have the same skill and intelligence? No.

How do I know? Because the real Kyoka would never "die" if Erza says the word "begone".



Thought projection doesn't count. I'm outright stating it now.



If it counts, then I'm going to say Gray can make an ice clone of a weak Laxus or Erza and that will count for the rest of the tournament.

If i remember correctly Neinhart said to Jellal that he can create historia with same MP,memory and personality of the real one.

--- Double Post Merged, May 22, 2016, Original Post Date: May 22, 2016 ---

Ajeel isn't fast, at all. Being faster than him is no feat.

Kyôka didn't use Etherious Form when Neinhart summoned her. Her speed wasn't increased. We're talking about the real Kyôka here.

Laxus stamina is better than Kyôka's. Did I ever say it wasn't?

Wahl's spells won't do more damage at Laxus than Kyôka's Sensation Curse would.



So?



Laxus was a lot faster than Wahl once he used his lightning body. Laxus speed isn't impressive without lightning body.



And who ever said Gray will attack Kyôka as first?



I don't see where Wahl is actually blitzing someone like Kyôka did? He only gives a punch.



She may be, but she didn't use Etherious form. So no, she didn't use her real power.



Perfectly said. We see eye to eye when it comes to Kyôka's power level. I find it pretty amusing that some here think Kyôka would be oneshotted.

Do you see that picture.Wahl punched Laxus so fast that he didn't have time to react.And we can all agree Alvarez Arc Laxus's speed is much better than Kyoka.

 

[Nemispelled]

Magic = Power
Abilities = Skills
Intelligence = ?

As far as I'm concerned, they're pretty much the same. The only one that is unknown is Intelligence. Even so, it didn't seem like she was different from back in Tartaros. It's not like she acted like Natsu or something.

The part where Kyōka disappears was illogical. That I agree. She shouldn't have died because of what Erza said. That was not in her control though. It was all Erza's PoF.

What do you mean they are the same?

Neinhart's Kyoka doesn't know how to use the actual Kyoka's skills properly.

That fodder Kyoka was not the real Kyoka. That's a fact. Kyoka was never revived, that Kyoka was from Erza's PoF memories.

The Kyoka we are talking about for the sake of this tournament is long dead. She is no longer alive.

--- Double Post Merged, May 22, 2016, Original Post Date: May 22, 2016 ---

If i remember correctly Neinhart said to Jellal that he can create historia with same MP,memory and personality of the real one.

Excuse me, but none of the attributes you listed match to skills or intelligence.

Certainly not MP, not memory, and not personality.



Why do people keep arguing about this? This is blowing my mind. For the last time, you've used an invalid character. That character is not in tournament.

That "Fodder Kyoka" belongs to Neinhart, which is why I ranked Neinhart last in this tournament.


Do what you wish, but I'm not counting that lousy memory of Kyoka.

 

[Arjuna]

What do you mean they are the same?

Neinhart's Kyoka doesn't know how to use the actual Kyoka's skills properly.

That fodder Kyoka was not the real Kyoka. That's a fact. Kyoka was never revived, that Kyoka was from Erza's PoF memories.

The Kyoka we are talking about for the sake of this tournament is long dead. She is no longer alive.

--- Double Post Merged, May 22, 2016, Original Post Date: May 22, 2016 ---

Excuse me, but none of the attributes you listed match to skills or intelligence.

Certainly not MP, not memory, and not personality.



Why do people keep arguing about this? This is blowing my mind. For the last time, you've used an invalid character. That character is not in tournament.

That "Fodder Kyoka" belongs to Neinhart, which is why I ranked Neinhart last in this tournament.


Do what you wish, but I'm not counting that lousy memory of Kyoka.

http://googleweblight.com/?lite_url...943846&sig=APY536yhWWda5v-Ih6VG3xosNHdkJfr9xQ
Neinhart stated they are as real as the original.And there is no reason to believe otherwise.He clearly stated they have same personality and memory.

 

[Nemispelled]

Do you see that picture.Wahl punched Laxus so fast that he didn't have time to react.And we can all agree Alvarez Arc Laxus's speed is much better than Kyoka.

Let me correct you on that.



And we can all agree Alvarez Arc Laxus's speed (The Laxus who was sick and half dead from a disease) is much worse than healthy full powered Kyoka.

--- Double Post Merged, May 22, 2016, Original Post Date: May 22, 2016 ---

http://googleweblight.com/?lite_url...943846&sig=APY536yhWWda5v-Ih6VG3xosNHdkJfr9xQ
Neinhart stated they are as real as the original.And the is no reason to believe otherwise.

Gray's ice clones are as real as the original too. Silver couldn't tell the difference twice.

If people keep bringing up the memories, I will start to make my own rules. Which means I will pretend Gray can make ice clones of Laxus, Natsu, Erza, and Jellal and call them all fodders that can be shattered with one swipe.


Being as real as the original and as skillful as the original are 2 completely different things.

 

[Brandish μ]

1.) Laxus's performance against Wahl doesn't count. Laxus was injured and half the time couldn't even get in a decent punch. That's why he did no damage to Wahl. Not because Wahl is strong.

Laxus seemed fine up until Assault Wahl came out, then he got sick. He literally comments about his body acting up at that moment. Regardless of whether he's sick or not, he still was able to perform at a level we've not seen him do pre-skip.

Wahl was hit with punches that floored him, and sent him flying a few times. Wahl has great physical strength, enough to smash Laxus through a street of houses, then take a kick to the head and brace himself as he hit the ground. So even with immunity you can tell that Wahl is getting hit hard. Still, he had no damage. It's a better feat of durability than God Serena tanking Wolfheim's punch imo.

Another way to look at it is how much area the basic brawls occupied...
1) Zeref v IgNatsu traversed a landscape
2) Laxus v Wahl covered a city block
3) Jacob v Natsu/Lucy & DiMaria v TO-Sherria covered a housing block in area
^Now that isn't a proof of anything, just a portrayal as I see it (in descending order of power). I'm using it to make the point that Wahl and Laxus were punching on harder than group 3, yet Wahl had no damage. It's my basis for thinking Wahl has better durability than Natsu and TO-Sherria.

2.) Did you guys seriously bring up the Kyoka that Fodder Neinhart summon?



Please, I don't want to see that excuse again. For starters, all of Neinhart's memories weren't the real ones. So you can't use them in this tournament. This is Kyoka, not Neinhart's Memory Kyoka.



All of Neinhart's fodders have a decrease in intelligence by 90%. The Ur that Gray and Lyon fought could never hold a candle to the actual Ur. Same with the Kyoka and Hades.

As @XXEliteXXAceXX mentioned, the Historia's are at the power they were when they were alive. It's quite possible that the Historia's don't possess great endurance or durability, but I don't think there's any proof that they are not the same in every way, well apart from not being flesh and bone.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

She may be, but she didn't use Etherious form. So no, she didn't use her real power.

It wouldn't matter though. Every historia that Neinhart created were fodderized by injured or weakened FT Mages. Honestly, her Etherious Form wouldn't do much if we consider the fact that all the FT mages are full power. In fact, the power-up from her Etherious Form is a lot less than if Erza, Laxus, Wendy, and everyone else were healthy + used their full power.

What do you mean they are the same?

Neinhart's Kyoka doesn't know how to use the actual Kyoka's skills properly.

That fodder Kyoka was not the real Kyoka. That's a fact. Kyoka was never revived, that Kyoka was from Erza's PoF memories.

The Kyoka we are talking about for the sake of this tournament is long dead. She is no longer alive.

Kyōka's attitude was the same. Her grudge against Erza was the same. The manner in which she tortured Erza was the same. And most importantly, her actions and desires/thoughts were the same. Notice how these historias were created directly from memories. What does this mean? This means they are illusions that come from the minds of Neinhart's targets. In other words, everything about Kyōka was exactly how Erza remembered or fought her back in Tartaros. Meaning they are very much the same in stats and behavior.

 

[Holt]

It's not baseless? I would like proof that it is not baseless. In your second sentence, you said "you assume". That's pretty baseless to me. You have no proof how strong Wahl is.


@Everybody


You guys are under a few misconceptions. Let me point it out to you clearly so that we are all on the same page.


1.) Laxus's performance against Wahl doesn't count. Laxus was injured and half the time couldn't even get in a decent punch. That's why he did no damage to Wahl. Not because Wahl is strong.


You guys are all saying "Laxus couldn't do this, Laxus couldn't do that, so how could Kyoka?"



Well guess what? Laxus couldn't do anything against Wahl because he is a lighting user that was sick and on his death bed. So his performance is below what a healthy Kyoka can do.





In fact, Wahl's defense sucks, but Wahl was lucky that Laxus was dumb enough to challenge him while he was half dying from his sickness.


Not to mention, Wahl is immune to 98% of Laxus attacks (with the exception of Red Lighting). Wahl is not immune to any of Kyoka's attacks.






2.) Did you guys seriously bring up the Kyoka that Fodder Neinhart summon?



Please, I don't want to see that excuse again. For starters, all of Neinhart's memories weren't the real ones. So you can't use them in this tournament. This is Kyoka, not Neinhart's Memory Kyoka.



All of Neinhart's fodders have a decrease in intelligence by 90%. The Ur that Gray and Lyon fought could never hold a candle to the actual Ur. Same with the Kyoka and Hades.


So, I'm sorry, but all of your points are invalid. We are going off of the real Kyoka.


Since Neinhart's memories are invalid, that also does not mean Erza beat Kyoka in a 1v3, let alone by just a single stare.



That was the most PoF baseless featless move I have ever seen. She took out 3 of her enemies by saying "Begone". That's utter bullshit and cheating to the max.

It's not PoF anymore. It's outright flat cheating.



Even in Tartaros, Erza won because of plot. I don't see how you guys cannot grasp that. Erza had to win for the plot to continue. The fight didn't make any sense.



I can't believe you guys believe PoF actually is legit.


If that's the case, then I expect Erza to finish this tournament as the victor and nothing less. With PoF, she can beat Acnologia because she will never lose.


I dare you guys to vote Erza till the end. I know you guys wouldn't do it, because your PoF only works on certain characters that you choose for it to happen to.


When it is Natsu, Laxus, or Jellal vs. Erza, you guys will pretend Erza never had PoF. Please.

On your first point, an injured Laxus who had fought at length with Wahl defeated Hades. I guess that doesn't count either?
Also, Laxus not being able to get a decent punch was because Wahl was matching him in speed and strength. Otherwise, we would've had Laxus hit Wahl numerous times but the hits would be ineffective due to Wahl's Lightning immunity. However, we never saw Laxus overwhelm Wahl like this. Wahl doesn't negate Laxus speed or strength. The mere fact Wahl wasn't getting tossed around or continually hit is proof that he can indeed keep up with Laxus. The fact that he could get Laxus serious and then have him shocked at his attacks is proof of his strength.

So now Neinhart is fodder? This because he got taken down by Grand Chariot which enveloped the skies? Are you implying Kyoka can take that?
Also, there's no reason to doubt that his summons are as powerful as usual. That's pretty baseless. It's obvious the summons can't keep up with the current crop because they're far more powerful than the time when they last fought.
Besides, even without considering Kyoka's summons, we still have Pre TS Erza's battle against her as reference.

PoF or not, Pre TS Erza bested Kyoka and I'm sure it's reasonable to say that Erza is stronger than she was then. Kyoka's enhancement isn't limitless or at least, she can get defeated despite it. Even if Kyoka could bridge the gap between her and Wahl with enhancement (which she can't), Wahl would've disposed of her long before she could do so.

Spoiler

Those are snippets of different times Wahl attacked and matched Laxus. All showing that Wahl is very much capable of doing damage to someone of Laxus's caliber. In assault mode, Kagura remarks that Wahl scorched the sky itself. And this wasn't even the strongest attack he had. So what's Kyoka going to do about his speed? His strength that can do that much damage to Laxus? His attacks that leave S-class mages gaping? His etherion?

We saw Erza fight Ajeel and basically lose. Or would've if it was just one on one. That's another reference point. If PoF was always enough, then Erza would've won that battle without needing help. But she did need help. Twice. First time was when Wahl got distracted and second was from Jupiter. Wahl is likely stronger than Ajeel but even if someone were to argue that he isn't, he definitely won't be far off. If Erza could've even best Ajeel alone at her current strength, why does Kyoka even stand a chance against an enemy of that caliber when she lost to a weaker Erza?

PoF Erza isn't unbeatable. We know this kicks in when she's about to lose but even with Ajeel literally about to kill her, she could do nothing except use a beacon for Jupiter to target and after the fight, she collapsed. PoF Erza<Ajeel and this is a stronger Erza as mentioned before.

 

[Nemispelled]

Kyōka's attitude was the same. Her grudge against Erza was the same. The manner in which she tortured Erza was the same. And most importantly, her actions and desires/thoughts were the same. Notice how these historias were created directly from memories. What does this mean? This means they are illusions that come from the minds of Neinhart's targets. In other words, everything about Kyōka was exactly how Erza remembered or fought her back in Tartaros. Meaning they are very much the same in stats and behavior.

That's incorrect. That Kyoka was pulled from Erza's memories. And memories can be manipulated.

You can lie to yourself, imagine the person differently, or forget what actually happened.


Just because you have the same stats, does not mean you have the same skill. Intelligence is original and cannot be copied. Why? Because Neinhart himself has never witnessed the actual Kyoka. He doesn't know the real Kyoka's intelligence and skill.

He pulled straight from Erza damn thick head.

--- Double Post Merged, May 22, 2016, Original Post Date: May 22, 2016 ---

Laxus seemed fine up until Assault Wahl came out, then he got sick. He literally comments about his body acting up at that moment. Regardless of whether he's sick or not, he still was able to perform at a level we've not seen him do pre-skip.

Wahl was hit with punches that floored him, and sent him flying a few times. Wahl has great physical strength, enough to smash Laxus through a street of houses, then take a kick to the head and brace himself as he hit the ground. So even with immunity you can tell that Wahl is getting hit hard. Still, he had no damage. It's a better feat of durability than God Serena tanking Wolfheim's punch imo.

Another way to look at it is how much area the basic brawls occupied...
1) Zeref v IgNatsu traversed a landscape
2) Laxus v Wahl covered a city block
3) Jacob v Natsu/Lucy & DiMaria v TO-Sherria covered a housing block in area
^Now that isn't a proof of anything, just a portrayal as I see it (in descending order of power). I'm using it to make the point that Wahl and Laxus were punching on harder than group 3, yet Wahl had no damage. It's my basis for thinking Wahl has better durability than Natsu and TO-Sherria.



As @XXEliteXXAceXX mentioned, the Historia's are at the power they were when they were alive. It's quite possible that the Historia's don't possess great endurance or durability, but I don't think there's any proof that they are not the same in every way, well apart from not being flesh and bone.

For the Laxus vs. Wahl, it doesn't negate the fact that Laxus was suffering from the disease.


The night before, Laxus already had trouble breathing. The sickness has clearly taken a toll on his body even if he doesn't show it.


Wahl was getting hit hard, but sustained no damage because he was immune to lightning. Being hit by regular bricks isn't going to take Wahl out.


Laxus did minimal damage due to sickness and immunity and Wahl's durability is pretty pitiful in the end. Wahl is not Red Lightning caliber if he wasn't immune to Lightning.





As for Historias, they don't match up to the real ones. They cannot be used in this tournament to gauge Kyokas, Ur's, and Hades' power. All of the Historias belong to Neinhart. Kyoka has nothing to do with it. She has never even seen the Historias of herself.

--- Double Post Merged, May 22, 2016 ---

On your first point, an injured Laxus who had fought at length with Wahl defeated Hades. I guess that doesn't count either?
Also, Laxus not being able to get a decent punch was because Wahl was matching him in speed and strength. Otherwise, we would've had Laxus hit Wahl numerous times but the hits would be ineffective due to Wahl's Lightning immunity. However, we never saw Laxus overwhelm Wahl like this. Wahl doesn't negate Laxus speed or strength. The mere fact Wahl wasn't getting tossed around or continually hit is proof that he can indeed keep up with Laxus. The fact that he could get Laxus serious and then have him shocked at his attacks is proof of his strength.

So now Neinhart is fodder? This because he got taken down by Grand Chariot which enveloped the skies? Are you implying Kyoka can take that?
Also, there's no reason to doubt that his summons are as powerful as usual. That's pretty baseless. It's obvious the summons can't keep up with the current crop because they're far more powerful than the time when they last fought.
Besides, even without considering Kyoka's summons, we still have Pre TS Erza's battle against her as reference.

PoF or not, Pre TS Erza bested Kyoka and I'm sure it's reasonable to say that Erza is stronger than she was then. Kyoka's enhancement isn't limitless or at least, she can get defeated despite it. Even if Kyoka could bridge the gap between her and Wahl with enhancement (which she can't), Wahl would've disposed of her long before she could do so.

Spoiler

Those are snippets of different times Wahl attacked and matched Laxus. All showing that Wahl is very much capable of doing damage to someone of Laxus's caliber. In assault mode, Kagura remarks that Wahl scorched the sky itself. And this wasn't even the strongest attack he had. So what's Kyoka going to do about his speed? His strength that can do that much damage to Laxus? His attacks that leave S-class mages gaping? His etherion?

We saw Erza fight Ajeel and basically lose. Or would've if it was just one on one. That's another reference point. If PoF was always enough, then Erza would've won that battle without needing help. But she did need help. Twice. First time was when Wahl got distracted and second was from Jupiter. Wahl is likely stronger than Ajeel but even if someone were to argue that he isn't, he definitely won't be far off. If Erza could've even best Ajeel alone at her current strength, why does Kyoka even stand a chance against an enemy of that caliber when she lost to a weaker Erza?

PoF Erza isn't unbeatable. We know this kicks in when she's about to lose but even with Ajeel literally about to kill her, she could do nothing except use a beacon for Jupiter to target and after the fight, she collapsed. PoF Erza<Ajeel and this is a stronger Erza as mentioned before.

You guessed right. Hades does not count either.



As I said to Brandish, Red Lightning is not Wahl's Caliber. Without being immune to lightning, Raging Bolt would have done the job that Red Lightning did.


As for Neinhart, he is a complete fodder. Using Grand Chariot was overkill. That guy has almost no offense capabilities and was fodderized in the end.



Say what you want with Tartaros Erza vs. Kyoka, but you guys can't negate the fact that you guys choose when PoF works. Otherwise, there should be no tournament because the person with the most PoF obviously wins.



Again, Wahl did damage to Laxus because he was sick. And Laxus did no damage to Wahl because Wahl is immune to Lightning.


Sure, Kyoka would be able to take on Ajeel any day. That's what happens to Erza when you use PoF too much. You run out of it.

Conveniently, when Erza runs out of PoF and is at death's door to Ajeel, plot saves her through Jupiter.



PoF isn't unbeatable? The definition of FT's PoF is unlimited power from your friends. You can't lose with PoF. PoF has explained every single one of Erza's victory.

PoF = Because she's Erza


It is quite well known in the FT community that "Because she's Erza" is BS.

Care to explain that for me?

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

That's incorrect. That Kyoka was pulled from Erza's memories. And memories can be manipulated.

You can lie to yourself, imagine the person differently, or forget what actually happened.


Just because you have the same stats, does not mean you have the same skill. Intelligence is original and cannot be copied. Why? Because Neinhart himself has never witnessed the actual Kyoka. He doesn't know the real Kyoka's intelligence and skill.

He pulled straight from Erza damn thick head.

You are correct in a sense. However, psychologically, memories are innate. Meaning they are natural. One cannot change their own memories unless it is influenced by an outside source or factor. In real life, this could be many things. In the manga, it would be Mest's magic. Anyways, we can forget things because memories only last so long depending on whether it is short-term memory or long-term memory. Short-Term Memory can be as short as 3-6 seconds while Long-Term Memory can last for years. Surely though, after being tortured or fighting a long and hard battle, it is not easy to forget.

Either way, the fact that Kyōka remembered their exchange back in Tartaros should be enough proof.

Spoiler

Still not enough? How about directly from Erza's perspective?

Spoiler

In the end, we have our own opinions. But I'll let you have the last word. At least for me. Others might continue this discussion.

 

[~Charging Lightning~]

Ajeel isn't fast, at all. Being faster than him is no feat.

Kyôka didn't use Etherious Form when Neinhart summoned her. Her speed wasn't increased. We're talking about the real Kyôka here.

Laxus stamina is better than Kyôka's. Did I ever say it wasn't?

Wahl's spells won't do more damage at Laxus than Kyôka's Sensation Curse would.

Yeah, and the "real" Kyoka can be taken out here before she has a chance to do anything significant. You missed my point about Ajeel so much... Ajeel could outspeed a healthy Erza while an injured Erza could keep up with Kyoka and two other powerhouses at the same time. I know Kyoka was in her base form, but like I said, there are people in this battle royal who can take her out before she does anything significant (like transform into her Etherious form).

@bold: This isn't very relevant, but you seem to be mixing up stamina and durability....

So?

Bruh....

Laxus was a lot faster than Wahl once he used his lightning body. Laxus speed isn't impressive without lightning body.

When Laxus was using his lightning body Wahl didn't try to dodge any of Laxus's attacks since they don't affect him, so saying that Laxus was MUCH faster than him is baseless. Laxus's reaction speed (with or without lightning body) is better than pre skip Erza's, so Wahl landing blows on him is more impressive than Kyoka blitzing Erza.

And who ever said Gray will attack Kyôka as first?

I'm gonna assume you didn't read all of my previous post...

@bold: Have you forggoten how much Gray despises all the demons created by Zeref? It's not farfetched to think that Gray would go after Kyoka first here.

 

[Nemispelled]

You are correct in a sense. However, psychologically, memories are innate. Meaning they are natural. One cannot change their own memories unless it is influenced by an outside source or factor. In real life, this could be many things. In the manga, it would be Mest's magic. Anyways, we can forget things because memories only last so long depending on whether it is short-term memory or long-term memory. Short-Term Memory can be as short as 3-6 seconds while Long-Term Memory can last for years. Surely though, after being tortured or fighting a long and hard battle, it is not easy to forget.

Either way, the fact that Kyōka remembered their exchange back in Tartaros should be enough proof.

Spoiler

Still not enough? How about directly from Erza's perspective?

Spoiler

In the end, we have our own opinions. But I'll let you have the last word. At least for me. Others might continue this discussion.

Except that those aren't natural memories. Those are fabricated memories by Neinhart's magic. They came from Erza's head, but Erza does not have the intelligence or skill level of Kyoka.

Nobody can copy another person's skill or intelligence, that's impossible.


Remembering stuff about the person =/= Person have the same attributes


In my opinion, it is quite obvious at this point that Neinhart's Kyoka is not the real Kyoka and cannot gauge or represent the real Kyoka and therefore is invalid.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Al these baseless assumptions are hurting me:

People say Laxus was injured so Wahl keeping up isn't a good feat? Doesn't matter a sick Laxus was still Spirggan tier and Wahl keeping up with him is better than any speed feat Kyouka has. In fact, X791 Laxus is faster than Kyouka. Laxus while ill is still wayy faster than Kyouka EVER WAS. Facts a sick Laxus has feats above ANYTHING Kyouka has done.

Another thing I see is Wahl has bad defence? Where does this come from? His durability should be scalable from the likes of Ajeel who could take a blow from current Natsu and multiple from current Erza who's way above the Erza who beat Kyouka. Saying, Wahl, has bad defence becsuse Laxus destroyed him means like 99% of the verse has horrible defence because there's only a handful of people who could take an assault from Laxus and still stand up after.

Neinheart's summons are the exact same as the original person in terms of power, personality and intelligence , nothing has contradicted this, the only summons that was weaker than the original is Hades simply because he doesn't have his heart.


All you're saying is Erza who via PoF though that fight was bullshit the only part that was BS was standing up when her senses were being robbed before that Erza was keeping up with Kyouka fine. A lot of you act like Kyouka and Sayla curses are limitless and clearly don't know what a no limits fallacy is. Being Spirggan tier must be a joke to some people.

 

[Aizen]

I honestly don't get this whole debate about POF. I mean we could literally say almost every fight in FT has some element of POF, why is it only Erza that gets mentioned in regards to this? The portrayal of Kyoka at this point is obvious, she got summoned by Neinhart, then was beat by a injured Erza, while having help from Azume and Ikaruga. She did beat them through "Fear" which to me could be considered POF, but she was holding her own anyways, and had she been healthy, she very likely would have beaten them all. At this point if erza can beat them all on her own when healthy, but cannot beat Ajeel, who is a member of the 12 just like Wahl, then how does Kyoka make it out of a round where there is several characters that are either Spriggan level or close to it? Kyoka is powerful, but let's be honest she has been left behind after the timeskip, when compared to the 12. I think that it's quite likely her curse would not even work against Wahl(due to him being a Machias). As for most of the others, i simply think their attacks, and magic power are too high at this point, for Kyoka to make it out of this round.

 

[Axiomus]

Here is Erza stating that the Spriggans are on a completely different scale compared to the enemies Erza has faced before. This includes Kyouka

Spoiler

Here is Hiro Mashima saying that the Spriggans are the strongest Fairy Tail has ever faced.

Spoiler

The same people telling me that Ajeel was a fodder among the Spriggans are now saying that Kyouka is capable of essentially soloing multiple Spriggan level fighters, despite everything in the manga telling us that the Spriggans are in a class of their own compared to the previous Fairy Tail antagonists. If Ajeel is a fodder among Spriggans, then Kyouka certain is as well. Kyouka is not even a Spriggan like Ajeel is. Guess who is a Spriggan? Wahl.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Here is Erza stating that the Spriggans are on a completely different scale compared to the enemies Erza has faced before. This includes Kyouka

Spoiler

Here is Hiro Mashima saying that the Spriggans are the strongest Fairy Tail has ever faced.

Spoiler

The same people telling me that Ajeel was a fodder among the Spriggans are now telling that Kyouka is capable of essentially soloing multiple Spriggan level fighters, despite everything in the manga telling us that the Spriggans are in a class of their own compared to the previous Fairy Tail antagonists. If Ajeel is stronger than Kyouka. If Ajeel is a fodder among Spriggans, then Kyouka certain is as well. Guess who is a Spriggan? Wahl.

I didn't think that page would have to be posted a second time to get the message across. Good job.

 

[Nemispelled]

Here is Erza stating that the Spriggans are on a completely different scale compared to the enemies Erza has faced before. This includes Kyouka

Spoiler

Here is Hiro Mashima saying that the Spriggans are the strongest Fairy Tail has ever faced.

Spoiler

The same people telling me that Ajeel was a fodder among the Spriggans are now saying that Kyouka is capable of essentially soloing multiple Spriggan level fighters, despite everything in the manga telling us that the Spriggans are in a class of their own compared to the previous Fairy Tail antagonists. If Ajeel is a fodder among Spriggans, then Kyouka certain is as well. Kyouka is not even a Spriggan like Ajeel is. Guess who is a Spriggan? Wahl.

I didn't think that page would have to be posted a second time to get the message across. Good job.

I'm not being rude here, but please read the actual afterword before telling me something. Let me break it down for you. I'll start out with the afterword because that's more closely related to Mashima himself.


What you are telling me:


"Here is Hiro Mashima saying that the Spriggans are the strongest Fairy Tail has ever faced."



Here is what the Afterword is actually telling us:


"The enemy boss characters are also the strongest characters in the history of this series!"




Now where does it say that the Spriggans are the strongest FT has ever faced? He said the Spriggans are the strongest characters in the history of this series.

That includes Acnologia, Zeref, Gildartz, Gray, Natsu, Laxus, and Jellal. Is this true?

Because I remember all of you guys saying Laxus and Jellal >>> Ajeel.



Obviously, if you didn't get it, the afterword is a literary technique to build suspense and hype. It's not to be taken literally word-for-word.






Second, about Erza's comment.


It makes me laugh to think that you believe and quote the exact woman who supported Natsu to 1v1 Zeref by himself


And where did that lead us? Natsu got a tumor and Brandish, a Spriggan, had to save his ass. It was a mistake to the max.



And Ajeel is a fodder. Kyoka isn't.

I honestly don't get this whole debate about POF. I mean we could literally say almost every fight in FT has some element of POF, why is it only Erza that gets mentioned in regards to this? The portrayal of Kyoka at this point is obvious, she got summoned by Neinhart, then was beat by a injured Erza, while having help from Azume and Ikaruga. She did beat them through "Fear" which to me could be considered POF, but she was holding her own anyways, and had she been healthy, she very likely would have beaten them all. At this point if erza can beat them all on her own when healthy, but cannot beat Ajeel, who is a member of the 12 just like Wahl, then how does Kyoka make it out of a round where there is several characters that are either Spriggan level or close to it? Kyoka is powerful, but let's be honest she has been left behind after the timeskip, when compared to the 12. I think that it's quite likely her curse would not even work against Wahl(due to him being a Machias). As for most of the others, i simply think their attacks, and magic power are too high at this point, for Kyoka to make it out of this round.

I'm giving you my fair analysis here. I agree with you that everybody has a fair share of some sort of PoF at some point in the series.

However:


It's a running and proven joke in the community that Erza wins her battles "Because she's Erza."



Correct me if I'm wrong, but:


I never heard of any drastic instances of "Because she's Mira", "Because he's Gray", "Because he's Laxus", "Because he's Natsu", "Because she's Lucy", or even "Because he's Jellal".




If everybody here faces the facts, it's obvious that Erza's PoF moments makes the least sense and happen more often than all of the other characters combined.

 

[Crimson Ice]

I'm not being rude here, but please read the actual afterword before telling me something. Let me break it down for you. I'll start out with the afterword because that's more closely related to Mashima himself.


What you are telling me:


"Here is Hiro Mashima saying that the Spriggans are the strongest Fairy Tail has ever faced."



Here is what the Afterword is actually telling us:


"The enemy boss characters are also the strongest characters in the history of this series!"




Now where does it say that the Spriggans are the strongest FT has ever faced? He said the Spriggans are the strongest characters in the history of this series.

That includes Acnologia, Zeref, Gildartz, Gray, Natsu, Laxus, and Jellal. Is this true?

Because I remember all of you guys saying Laxus and Jellal >>> Ajeel.



Obviously, if you didn't get it, the afterword is a literary technique to build suspense and hype. It's not to be taken literally word-for-word.






Second, about Erza's comment.


It makes me laugh to think that you believe and quote the exact woman who supported Natsu to 1v1 Zeref by himself


And where did that lead us? Natsu got a tumor and Brandish, a Spriggan, had to save his ass. It was a mistake to the max.



And Ajeel is a fodder. Kyoka isn't.










I'm giving you my fair analysis here. I agree with you that everybody has a fair share of some sort of PoF at some point in the series.

However:


It's a running and proven joke in the community that Erza wins her battles "Because she's Erza."



Correct me if I'm wrong, but:


I never heard of any drastic instances of "Because she's Mira", "Because he's Gray", "Because he's Laxus", "Because he's Natsu", "Because she's Lucy", or even "Because he's Jellal".




If everybody here faces the facts, it's obvious that Erza's PoF moments makes the least sense and happen more often than all of the other characters combined.

You obviously don't know what context is. That statement was made in regards to antagonists and the 12 as a group. This is reinforced when Erza says Ajeel is on a different level along with Makarov's words, context is key.


Trying to dismiss Erza's words because she believed in Natsu is a trash excuse, the only reason they let him go is because Natsu flat out said beforehand he had a trump card in which would put Zeref down and the fact is Natsu would have beaten Zeref if not for Happy.

Ajeel is not fodder, that's another baseless assumption backed up with no evidence. Ajeel is stronger than Erza and the Erza who fought Ajeel is way ahead of the Erza that beat Kyouka.

 

[Aizen]

I'm not being rude here, but please read the actual afterword before telling me something. Let me break it down for you. I'll start out with the afterword because that's more closely related to Mashima himself.


What you are telling me:


"Here is Hiro Mashima saying that the Spriggans are the strongest Fairy Tail has ever faced."



Here is what the Afterword is actually telling us:


"The enemy boss characters are also the strongest characters in the history of this series!"




Now where does it say that the Spriggans are the strongest FT has ever faced? He said the Spriggans are the strongest characters in the history of this series.

That includes Acnologia, Zeref, Gildartz, Gray, Natsu, Laxus, and Jellal. Is this true?

Because I remember all of you guys saying Laxus and Jellal >>> Ajeel.



Obviously, if you didn't get it, the afterword is a literary technique to build suspense and hype. It's not to be taken literally word-for-word.






Second, about Erza's comment.


It makes me laugh to think that you believe and quote the exact woman who supported Natsu to 1v1 Zeref by himself


And where did that lead us? Natsu got a tumor and Brandish, a Spriggan, had to save his ass. It was a mistake to the max.



And Ajeel is a fodder. Kyoka isn't.










I'm giving you my fair analysis here. I agree with you that everybody has a fair share of some sort of PoF at some point in the series.

However:


It's a running and proven joke in the community that Erza wins her battles "Because she's Erza."



Correct me if I'm wrong, but:


I never heard of any drastic instances of "Because she's Mira", "Because he's Gray", "Because he's Laxus", "Because he's Natsu", "Because she's Lucy", or even "Because he's Jellal".




If everybody here faces the facts, it's obvious that Erza's PoF moments makes the least sense and happen more often than all of the other characters combined.

I don't really think that Erza has had more POF moments than all of them combined, that's a bit extreme imo. I will say she has had a lot of them though. The fact is though no matter how much we all hate it, POF is a legit factor in battles in FT. The part about Erza's battle with Kyoka that was bs was her overcoming having no senses. Physically she was winning for a decent bit of the fight against Kyoka. I just think people get too extreme with this stuff, portrayal is a thing. You ultimately have to ask yourself that if you sat down with Hiro is he really going to say that Erza is inferior to someone like Mira? Or that Ajeel is straight up the weakest Spriggan? I find those things hard to believe if you look at how he has portrayed these characters. Looking at that, it's obvious to me how Kyoka is portrayed. She is powerful, but now after the time skip, Erza would defeat her straight up, simple as that imo. Therefore she has no chance of advancing with the characters in this round being as powerful as they are.

 

[Nemispelled]

You obviously don't know what context is. That statement was made in regards to antagonists and the 12 as a group. This is reinforced when Erza says Ajeel is on a different level along with Makarov's words, context is key.


Trying to dismiss Erza's words because she believed in Natsu is a trash excuse, the only reason they let him go is because Natsu flat out said beforehand he had a trump card in which would put Zeref down and the fact is Natsu would have beaten Zeref if not for Happy.

Ajeel is not fodder, that's another baseless assumption backed up with no evidence. Ajeel is stronger than Erza and the Erza who fought Ajeel is way ahead of the Erza that beat Kyouka.

No I'm sorry, you are reading it in the wrong context.

There is nothing in Mashima's afterword that said the Spriggan 12 is the strongest FT have ever faced.

While it is possible that the above statement is true, Mashima never said this.

Mashima did say they are the strongest characters in the history of the series, but we know that the statement was an exaggeration, because obviously, as canon has proved it, Acnologia is stronger than the strongest Spriggan.

Mashima was saying it in an literary exaggeration, and not literally. Otherwise, that would mean August > Acnologia which is clearly not the case.



As for Erza, I don't know why you would believe her words when she has been proven wrong before. I'm not saying Erza is 100% wrong, but we honestly cannot say she is 100% right.

There is room for error, especially since she said that while she was getting beat. Erza has been wrong before, and she was wrong when she supported Natsu's decision and underestimated Zeref's real power.



You have your opinions and I respect that man. I believe that Kyoka will beat Wahl since Wahl's durability is pretty low.

Being immune to lightning, he was beaten by Red Lightning. That means if he was not immune to lightning, Laxus would only need to use half his power to take out Wahl.

At the very least:

50% Laxus = 100% Kyoka

--- Double Post Merged, May 22, 2016, Original Post Date: May 22, 2016 ---

I don't really think that Erza has had more POF moments than all of them combined, that's a bit extreme imo. I will say she has had a lot of them though. The fact is though no matter how much we all hate it, POF is a legit factor in battles in FT. The part about Erza's battle with Kyoka that was bs was her overcoming having no senses. Physically she was winning for a decent bit of the fight against Kyoka. I just think people get too extreme with this stuff, portrayal is a thing. You ultimately have to ask yourself that if you sat down with Hiro is he really going to say that Erza is so much more inferior to someone like Mira? Or that Ajeel is straight up the weakest Spriggan? I find those things hard to believe if you look at how he has portrayed these characters. Looking at that, it's obvious to me how Kyoka is portrayed. She is powerful, but now after the time skip, Erza would defeat her straight up, simple as that imo. Therefore she has no chance of advancing with the characters in this round being as powerful as they are.

Well, our opinions differ, but up to this date, no character in this series has beaten another character simply by staring at them and saying "Begone".


Erza's asspull against Neinhart's memory magic is arguably the most BS move I've ever seen. She literally stared into 3 of her past enemies and said one word, killing all of them in an instant.

If that is not a "Because she's Erza" moment, I don't know what is.



It's well known in the community that the "Because she's Erza" statement was originally formed after Erza has had the most BS asspulls as well as the most fights that do not make any sense.








@Everyone


And to conclude this topic, I don't see the Kyoka vs. Wahl fight going anywhere. Discussions for this Group D Battle Royale will end late tonight anyways.


Therefore, seeing as all of you are pretty adamant about your positions, I don't think it is necessary that I discuss this any further.


I'll respect your opinions and leave it be. Besides, I half knew Kyoka wasn't going to make it to the next round, so I might as well accept it as it is.


Afterall, there can only be 4 winners, so even if Kyoka takes 5th Place (or whatever place frankly), it is what it is and I'm alright with that.


I'll give whoever wants the last word, and I'll see you all in the next stage.

 

[Axiomus]

At the rate things are going, all the Spriggans are going to be considered "fodders" by the end of this tournament.

I'm not being rude here, but please read the actual afterword before telling me something. Let me break it down for you. I'll start out with the afterword because that's more closely related to Mashima himself.


What you are telling me:


"Here is Hiro Mashima saying that the Spriggans are the strongest Fairy Tail has ever faced."



Here is what the Afterword is actually telling us:


"The enemy boss characters are also the strongest characters in the history of this series!"




Now where does it say that the Spriggans are the strongest FT has ever faced? He said the Spriggans are the strongest characters in the history of this series.

That includes Acnologia, Zeref, Gildartz, Gray, Natsu, Laxus, and Jellal. Is this true?

Because I remember all of you guys saying Laxus and Jellal >>> Ajeel.



Obviously, if you didn't get it, the afterword is a literary technique to build suspense and hype. It's not to be taken literally word-for-word.






Second, about Erza's comment.


It makes me laugh to think that you believe and quote the exact woman who supported Natsu to 1v1 Zeref by himself


And where did that lead us? Natsu got a tumor and Brandish, a Spriggan, had to save his ass. It was a mistake to the max.



And Ajeel is a fodder. Kyoka isn't.










I'm giving you my fair analysis here. I agree with you that everybody has a fair share of some sort of PoF at some point in the series.

However:


It's a running and proven joke in the community that Erza wins her battles "Because she's Erza."



Correct me if I'm wrong, but:


I never heard of any drastic instances of "Because she's Mira", "Because he's Gray", "Because he's Laxus", "Because he's Natsu", "Because she's Lucy", or even "Because he's Jellal".




If everybody here faces the facts, it's obvious that Erza's PoF moments makes the least sense and happen more often than all of the other characters combined.

Acnologia and dragons are the obvious exceptions. Zeref too should be stronger than most, but it's debatable if August and Irene are on his level, immortality aside. However, Kyouka isn't comparable to any of them. Kyouka is weaker than Tartarus Erza. It's obvious that Hiro is portraying the Spriggan 12 as the strongest opponents Fairy Tail has faced. It's not just Erza saying this. The Spriggan's status as being way above anyone Fairy Tail has ever face has been a consistent theme this arc.

Spoiler

The power scale of the Spriggans are literally off the charts. The fact that Kyouka was simply one of many Historais that Neinhart summoned should be an indicator that someone of Kyouka's level is a but a fraction of a Spriggan 12's power. Fairy Tail members that are considered near-Spriggan level aren't there for no reason either. Laxus can essentially low-diff Hades and Natsu can oneshot opponents like Bluenote. Even someone like Mard Geer would at least need to mid-diff these type of opponents.

Why should we not believe Erza's words? She has fought both Kyouka and Ajeel. It's her opinion that Ajeel is on a different level. She isn't one to underestimate her opponents either. Erza wasn't wrong in believing Natsu had the power to kill Zeref, because he did. Natsu would have killed Zeref if not for Happy. You can't blame Erza for not being able to predict that Natsu was Zeref's brother, and that he was going to die if he killed Zeref. Erza believed that Natsu had a solution for Zeref - and he did.