Question Hisoka's resurrection discussion

[uberfayt]

Very fact he does things he wasn't capable of doing previously is proof he's stronger too

But what proof do we have that Hisoka could not perform those feats previously ?

 

[shionoro]

Whenever a character gets stronger Nen be it from training for 1 day to a 1,000 years or the 7 dragon-balls, they're stronger.

What evidence do you have for that claim?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

But what proof do we have that Hisoka could not perform those feats previously ?

For one, he'd never exhibited such power until his Nen became stronger.

It's only Sensible & Logical that an ability that became stronger would have increased usage and application.

What evidence do you have for that claim?

It's called reading, common sense and logic.

You're saying he's not stronger despite the fact his Nen was stated to have become stronger. Like I said before, you're clearly in denial.

Your question is as absurd as asking if a car with an originally poor engine, but replaced by a far superior powered Engine won't become an improved car whether it enhances speed or efficiency.

You're committing a logical fallacy.

 

[shionoro]

Well in the past he did leave many questions open, however everything seemed consistent, and all the possibilities we could infer actually did make sense and were not farfetched, even in the hxh universe. However here in this case of Hisoka, it's not whether he got stronger or not which is the problem, but whether he was truly dead or just "clinically" dead. To leave one of the possibilities we could think about to be something breaking his own rules is not the cleverest thing to do, and this is what alarms me.

In killua's case, he just did not chose the optimal choice, however his choice no matter how sentimental it looks is still decent and doesn't break any law.

Kaito's death is pretty clear. However Kaito's resirrection in itself doesn't make any sense.

Hisoka's resurrection is so full of holes that even when we try to think of the most plausible scenario, there are lots of assumptions to be made and most of them are farfetched. So why didn't Togashi at least hint a bit more that Hisoka's brain didn't decay, so that he could point us to the more logical outcome ? I mean he did even use a whole page to show that a human head can hit as hard as a bowling ball, so why not explain things here ? This is what I don't like.

In the end, we all like Togashi and think highly of him, but he's still a humain, like me and you. So he really needs to redeem himself in this arc.

It is true that togashi could have explained it better. I think he did not do it because he had a very clear idea about how to pace that chapter and wanted to have the chapter ending be very strong.
He probably felt that a lengthy explanation would distract too much while he found it fit when he told us how much a head weights.

Under some assumptions, i can make sense of it. Those assumptions are, as you said, farfetched, but that is acceptable to me because it just means that it was by no means a sure bet that Hisoka could pull that trick off. He had to be really lucky.

The biggest problem to me was always the narrative one: The fact that a clear deathmatch didnt have a dead loser. At first, it felt like a cop out.
But i don't feel like that now, because it was used to pull the story into a new, interesting direction.

I am also not 100% sure that we know everything that happened in that fight. Call me crazy, but i still have some idea in the back of my head that chrollo might have planned for Hisoka to survive. I know how farfetched that is, but i could never shake that feeling off.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 7, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 7, 2016 ---

It's called reading, common sense and logic.

You're saying he's not stronger despite the fact his Nen was stated to have become stronger. Like I said before, you're clearly in denial.

Your question is as absurd as asking if a car with an originally poor engine, but replaced by a far superior powered Engine won't become an improved car whether it enhances speed or efficiency.

You're committing a logical fallacy.

But that is exactly what i do to access this situation. Reading the manga and thinking about what was presented.
And it was never presented that you get stronger if the seven dragonballs enhance one of your casted abilities.
You get stronger by training because you can handle your nen nodes better. Your body changes. It is like building muscle.
That did not happen with hisoka tho.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

But that is exactly what i do to access this situation. Reading the manga and thinking about what was presented.
And it was never presented that you get stronger if the seven dragonballs enhance one of your casted abilities.
You get stronger by training because you can handle your nen nodes better. Your body changes. It is like building muscle.
That did not happen with hisoka tho.

You do nothing of that sort, your argument relies on ignorance.

Manga clearly stated Hisoka's Nen/Aura got Stronger.

Any improvement in anyone's ability to fight is essentially getting stronger.

Like I said before, at the very worst, you're lying, at best, confused and in sincere denial.

 

[uberfayt]

For one, he'd never exhibited such power until his Nen became stronger.

But that doesn't imply (from a logical point of view) that for sure he became stronger. There is still the possibility that he just didn't have the need to exhibit such a form of his powers.

It's only Sensible & Logical that an ability that became stronger would have increased usage and application.

Your statement is correct in general. In fact, if the ability did become stronger, then it would have an increased range of feats . So I ask you, do you have a decisive proof that after Hisoka woke up from death, his intensified nen didn't return to it's original former strength?

I can agree with you that his nen did become stronger while he was still dead (since as you've pointed out many times, Machi says it), but why should we take for granted that it remained strong even after resurrecting it's host (thus it's main condition for being strong not fulfilled anymore) ? Do you have a proof for that ?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

But that doesn't imply (from a logical point of view) that for sure he became stronger. There is still the possibility that he just didn't have the need to exhibit such a form of his powers.

Then why didn't he use this power when fighting against Chrollo? it clearly is a new power, he exhausted his abilities whilst fighting Chrollo.

Your statement is correct in general. In fact, if the ability did become stronger, then it would have an increased range of feats . So I ask you, do you have a decisive proof that after Hisoka woke up from death, his intensified nen didn't return to it's original former strength?

Why would it return to original?

Chrollo stole an ability, and what did he say?

He said it becomes stronger after death, and not only that, but did it weaken after the user died? so to try to insinuate that an ability weakens after death just because someone is revived and uses it is baseless, nothing supports it, it's not an assumption worth entertaining.

In fact, it seems that this is probably what led Hisoka to whimsically request for its revival because he knew it'd become stronger.

It is clear the only reason this belief is being denied is because it reflects poorly on Togashi, but the fact is, he messed up, but it doesn't mean HxH is a bad story nonetheless, but this revival and power-up is simply bad writing.

 

[uberfayt]

Then why didn't he use this power when fighting against Chrollo? it clearly is a new power, he exhausted his abilities whilst fighting Chrollo.



Why would it return to original?

Chrollo stole an ability, and what did he say?

He said it becomes stronger after death, and not only that, but did it weaken after the user died? so to try to insinuate that an ability weakens after death just because someone is revived and uses it is baseless, nothing supports it, it's not an assumption worth entertaining.

In fact, it seems that this is probably what led Hisoka to whimsically request for its revival because he knew it'd become stronger.

It is clear the only reason this belief is being denied is because it reflects poorly on Togashi, but the fact is, he messed up, but it doesn't mean HxH is a bad story nonetheless, but this revival and power-up is simply bad writing.

Yes I agree with you about this whole revival thing being bad writing. However we differ slightly on the reason why we think it's bad. For me it's bad because Togashi didn't give us decisive facts to decide what really happened.

The signs obviously hint strongly towards the worst scenario, which is the "Hisoka became stronger after cheating death". The problem is that we cannot justify it 100%, I mean look for instance, when I asked you about a proof you've just responded with "Then why didn't he use this power when fighting against Chrollo?" which is not a proof, because the answer to it is not just "cuz he didn't possess such powers at the time", but could be also "because the situation didn't require that specific usage" or simply "cuz he didn't want to", and many more...

Same with the nen getting stronger, you responded with "Why would it return to original?", I can also just start a loop by saying "and why wouldn't it ?"

Also the example you stated about Chrollo is not relevant in our discussion. The boosted-after-death-ability he stole belonged to someone who is still dead, so there is no reason for us to question why it should lose it's strength. In Hisoka's case, he died, then revived, so why not ask "does his revival cancel nen's condition for becoming strong ?" nothing prevents us from asking that, because Togashi ws not careful with his definition of this concept.

I know that what I'm stating has only a slight chance for being true, but it is not null.

So yes, Togashi screwed up because no matter how we try to justify a scenario, we find ourselves unable to because of all the possibilities left open.

In fact, it seems that this is probably what led Hisoka to whimsically request for its revival because he knew it'd become stronger.

This is in fact what I'm talking about, even this point you're just supporting it with a "probably"...you see how frustrating not to be able to declare it as a certainty...That's why I was salty back when we got the chapter. (here's my reaction

 

[Terahawk]

I don't quite get this part of your post...why is it a bad thing ? Does it have smthg to do with "Texture surprise" ?

It's because of Chrollo's plan. His orders to the majority of the puppets were to "Attack Hisoka", the only exceptions being given to those who were Black Voiced.

Had Hisoka conjured a different appearance onto himself, and then conjured his former appearance onto one of the attacking puppets, Chrollo would have had no shortage of difficulty in keeping the directions up to date for the puppets. And because it requires an equal amount of nen to conjure one appearance as it does another, trying to use Gyo to track Hisoka wouldn't work because there'd be as much Nen surrounding Hisoka as the puppet with another conjured appearance. Chrollo would wind up giving out orders (and giving away his location) while Hisoka simply switched appearances. The fight would've gone much, much differently, and even Hisoka appeared to think about this: "Well, I guess everyone knows who I am", but he never followed up on it in thought.

Hisoka's tactics usually rely heavily on misdirection and on manipulating what is seen. By all that was built into the character, changing his appearance should have been the first thing that came to mind. I've seen the argument made that he didn't have time for that in this fight... except he had plenty of it in the first few minutes, while Chrollo was busy creating the puppets. He could almost have done it at any point during the fight, the only time when it was inopportune was when Chrollo was busy stomping him (another lost opportunity to attach gum.) There were so many missed opportunities on Hisoka's part... and he always took them against other opponents.

I'm also still bitter about the fact that Hisoka did not try to attach Bungee Gum to Chrollo when he looked down at his skill hunter book during the explanation. If there's one thing Togashi hammered home in all of Hisoka's fights, it's that taking your eyes off of him is a non-starter. "But Chrollo would've seen it!"

Chrollo couldn't tell the difference, apparently, between a fake texture surprise tattoo of a spider and a real tattoo. Hisoka had at least one major advantage that was left in the dust.

I still feel as though Togashi could have done so much with Hisoka's adjacent Nen categories and if he had, I'd have absolutely respected the fight's outcome if Chrollo had overcome it. But that isn't what happened, and it reads as though Togashi stripped almost everything away from Hisoka... that made him who he is.

The misdirection, the magician persona, even the hunter vanished. It was a fight for the purpose of displaying Nen getting stronger after death, and almost nothing else.

 

[shionoro]

It's because of Chrollo's plan. His orders to the majority of the puppets were to "Attack Hisoka", the only exceptions being given to those who were Black Voiced.

Had Hisoka conjured a different appearance onto himself, and then conjured his former appearance onto one of the attacking puppets, Chrollo would have had no shortage of difficulty in keeping the directions up to date for the puppets. And because it requires an equal amount of nen to conjure one appearance as it does another, trying to use Gyo to track Hisoka wouldn't work because there'd be as much Nen surrounding Hisoka as the puppet with another conjured appearance. Chrollo would wind up giving out orders (and giving away his location) while Hisoka simply switched appearances. The fight would've gone much, much differently, and even Hisoka appeared to think about this: "Well, I guess everyone knows who I am", but he never followed up on it in thought.

Hisoka's tactics usually rely heavily on misdirection and on manipulating what is seen. By all that was built into the character, changing his appearance should have been the first thing that came to mind. I've seen the argument made that he didn't have time for that in this fight... except he had plenty of it in the first few minutes, while Chrollo was busy creating the puppets. He could almost have done it at any point during the fight, the only time when it was inopportune was when Chrollo was busy stomping him (another lost opportunity to attach gum.) There were so many missed opportunities on Hisoka's part... and he always took them against other opponents.

I'm also still bitter about the fact that Hisoka did not try to attach Bungee Gum to Chrollo when he looked down at his skill hunter book during the explanation. If there's one thing Togashi hammered home in all of Hisoka's fights, it's that taking your eyes off of him is a non-starter. "But Chrollo would've seen it!"

Chrollo couldn't tell the difference, apparently, between a fake texture surprise tattoo of a spider and a real tattoo. Hisoka had at least one major advantage that was left in the dust.

I still feel as though Togashi could have done so much with Hisoka's adjacent Nen categories and if he had, I'd have absolutely respected the fight's outcome if Chrollo had overcome it. But that isn't what happened, and it reads as though Togashi stripped almost everything away from Hisoka... that made him who he is.

The misdirection, the magician persona, even the hunter vanished. It was a fight for the purpose of displaying Nen getting stronger after death, and almost nothing else.

That was a common complaint back then, but i do think that hisoka cannot significantly change his appearance.
Changing your appearance is more than using another texture on your skin, because your bone structure and hair will stay the same. hisoka cannot change his hair, and this is pretty significant. I think the puppets are smart enough to find him there.

It is true that you should not take your eyes off hisoka, but it is a very different thing to take your eyes of someone when you know what he can do and still stay concentrated.

I think it was partially the point of the fight to do that. Hisoka had no time to breathe to set up tricks or do his usual showmanship. He was stripped down to playing chrollo's game, and he acknowledges that once he was back alive.
That is why he does things differently now and is back on track to do different things with his nen against chrollo and the spider.
What we have seen so far is Hisoka becoming the villain of a slasher movie who lurks unsuspecting spiders into their doom.

 

[uberfayt]

It's because of Chrollo's plan. His orders to the majority of the puppets were to "Attack Hisoka", the only exceptions being given to those who were Black Voiced.

Had Hisoka conjured a different appearance onto himself, and then conjured his former appearance onto one of the attacking puppets, Chrollo would have had no shortage of difficulty in keeping the directions up to date for the puppets. And because it requires an equal amount of nen to conjure one appearance as it does another, trying to use Gyo to track Hisoka wouldn't work because there'd be as much Nen surrounding Hisoka as the puppet with another conjured appearance. Chrollo would wind up giving out orders (and giving away his location) while Hisoka simply switched appearances. The fight would've gone much, much differently, and even Hisoka appeared to think about this: "Well, I guess everyone knows who I am", but he never followed up on it in thought.

Hisoka's tactics usually rely heavily on misdirection and on manipulating what is seen. By all that was built into the character, changing his appearance should have been the first thing that came to mind. I've seen the argument made that he didn't have time for that in this fight... except he had plenty of it in the first few minutes, while Chrollo was busy creating the puppets. He could almost have done it at any point during the fight, the only time when it was inopportune was when Chrollo was busy stomping him (another lost opportunity to attach gum.) There were so many missed opportunities on Hisoka's part... and he always took them against other opponents.

I'm also still bitter about the fact that Hisoka did not try to attach Bungee Gum to Chrollo when he looked down at his skill hunter book during the explanation. If there's one thing Togashi hammered home in all of Hisoka's fights, it's that taking your eyes off of him is a non-starter. "But Chrollo would've seen it!"

Chrollo couldn't tell the difference, apparently, between a fake texture surprise tattoo of a spider and a real tattoo. Hisoka had at least one major advantage that was left in the dust.

I still feel as though Togashi could have done so much with Hisoka's adjacent Nen categories and if he had, I'd have absolutely respected the fight's outcome if Chrollo had overcome it. But that isn't what happened, and it reads as though Togashi stripped almost everything away from Hisoka... that made him who he is.

The misdirection, the magician persona, even the hunter vanished. It was a fight for the purpose of displaying Nen getting stronger after death, and almost nothing else.

Oh yeah, I seem to recall that we have discussed something of the sort. Indeed it was strange that Hisoka did not use "Texture Surprise" to deceive the puppets, or even disguise himself. It could be because Togashi simply did not consider it, or because of psychological reasons :

Hisoka simply couldn't think of using his Texture ability to deceive puppets cuz his mind was set on a certain pattern, which was forced by Chrollo. Let me explain why. Keep in mind that this is not just a battle of nen and physical strength, but also of minds. Chrollo is somebody clearly fascinated by "the human being", a philosophical and deep interest. So it doesn't surprise me that he would guess the personality of any person after minor interactions with them. My guess is that he understood Hisoka's motives quite well, and thus understood how to shake him a bit. The whole strategy relies on burdening the opponent with too much information, "hit and run", and overwhelming numbers. Therefore Hisoka, who gladly was using his head to understand the strategy while keeping his focus on the battle and clearing one hardship after the other without flinching, began to get annoyed and frustrated after discovering that he was always one or two steps behind. At the moment when the 200 or more puppets start hurling towards him, Hisoka lost a bit his composure, only thinking of "clearing the stage and proving his superiority":

Spoiler: Look at his face here

I don't agree however that Hisoka could've bungee gumed Chrollo's book, even as a surprise when the explanations where going on. IMO that would be a wasted amateurish movement, which Chrollo would dodge easily. That could've easily backfired against Hisoka, and he knows it. (EDIT : the most obvious reaso why he didn't use bungee gum is that Chrollo can just dematerialize the book then make it appear again.)

I see you are still salty on how the battle went xD (for me it's just it's end which still bugs me)

 

[shionoro]

Oh yeah, I seem to recall that we have discussed something of the sort. Indeed it was strange that Hisoka did not use "Texture Surprise" to deceive the puppets, or even disguise himself. It could be because Togashi simply did not consider it, or because of psychological reasons :

Hisoka simply couldn't think of using his Texture ability to deceive puppets cuz his mind was set on a certain pattern, which was forced by Chrollo. Let me explain why. Keep in mind that this is not just a battle of nen and physical strength, but also of minds. Chrollo is somebody clearly fascinated by "the human being", a philosophical and deep interest. So it doesn't surprise me that he would guess the personality of any person after minor interactions with them. My guess is that he understood Hisoka's motives quite well, and thus understood how to shake him a bit. The whole strategy relies on burdening the opponent with too much information, "hit and run", and overwhelming numbers. Therefore Hisoka, who gladly was using his head to understand the strategy while keeping his focus on the battle and clearing one hardship after the other without flinching, began to get annoyed and frustrated after discovering that he was always one or two steps behind. At the moment when the 200 or more puppets start hurling towards him, Hisoka lost a bit his composure, only thinking of "clearing the stage and proving his superiority":

Spoiler: Look at his face here

I don't agree however that Hisoka could've bungee gumed Chrollo's book, even as a surprise when the explanations where going on. IMO that would be a wasted amateurish movement, which Chrollo would dodge easily. That could've easily backfired against Hisoka, and he knows it.

I see you are still salty on how the battle went xD (for me it's just it's end which still bugs me)

That is another good reason, true. Hisoka wanted to make chrollo really feel his defeat by playing his game and still winning it.
As i said, i don't believe hisoka could really chang ehis appearance enough with just texture surprise. He'd at least need a toupet, and his sillouette would still stay the same, too.
At least some zombies would also not lose sight of him and still know he is hisoka, no matter how he looks.
Hisoka would also have to take the time to do it while being actively chased, which means rubbing with his hands over all his body. That takes considerable time.
But even if we assume he could do that, i'd suppose that Machi has told chrollo of his ability by now. Hisoka would have to assume that chrollo has thought of that possibility. In his mindset, he might just be wasting time by camouflaging while chrollo creates more and more copies.

Hisoka was always sure that it was very urgent to catch chrollo and that he has no time to waste, which is why he went after him instantly every time he cleared the copies.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

The signs obviously hint strongly towards the worst scenario, which is the "Hisoka became stronger after cheating death". The problem is that we cannot justify it 100%, I mean look for instance, when I asked you about a proof you've just responded with "Then why didn't he use this power when fighting against Chrollo?" which is not a proof, because the answer to it is not just "cuz he didn't possess such powers at the time", but could be also "because the situation didn't require that specific usage" or simply "cuz he didn't want to", and many more...

There's really nothing to debate is the point because the Manga explicitly states that his Nen does get stronger.

When people get stronger abilities, it's natural their abilities have more functions, and that's exactly what we saw with Hisoka.

The fact again is there's simply nothing in the Manga that provokes one to think otherwise other than not wanting to accept it.

 

[shionoro]

There's really nothing to debate is the point because the Manga explicitly states that his Nen does get stronger.

When people get stronger abilities, it's natural their abilities have more functions, and that's exactly what we saw with Hisoka.

The fact again is there's simply nothing in the Manga that provokes one to think otherwise other than not wanting to accept it.

Once again, the manga does not say it with any syllable.

It was @uberfayt point that the condition for nen getting stronger is the death of a user and that it could aswell stop if the user is alive again.
Even by your logic, even if machi thought hisoka got stronger (which is kinda farfetched), she thought that before he was alive again.
So You really got no idea whether the effect didnt stop at the point he was alive again.

It is like that with other limitations of nen abilities.
If you don't respect your limitation, your power boost is gone, and if you have an oath, you even might get into trouble.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Once again, the manga does not say it with any syllable.

It does, you'd have to be lying to say otherwise.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 9, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 9, 2016 ---

It was @uberfayt point that the condition for nen getting stronger is the death of a user and that it could aswell stop if the user is alive again.

Also a lie, no where was this implied.

 

[shionoro]

It does, you'd have to be lying to say otherwise.

It does not. We have been over that. The picture does not say hisoka got stronger.
It does not even say his nen got stronger.

It says 'nen that intensifies?'.
Everything else is pure speculation on your part.

Machi could equally just ask herself whether the reason for nen flaring up is the mechanism called 'nen that intensifies' without judging whether it actually got stronger.
It could also mean that simply small nenthreads got stronger, not that hisokas nen got stronger.
There are many possibilities.

Nothing outright states anything you are so adamant about.

Also a lie, no where was this implied.

So you claim that for example franklin's nenbullets are just as strong as when he hadnt mutilated his fingers?
You...claim that a core mechanic of nen is just not true now? Namely that you can get stronger with limitation?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It does not. We have been over that. The picture does not say hisoka got stronger.

What you say is of no relevance, his Nen got stronger, therefore, he is stronger.

You can delude yourself to think otherwise, doesn't really matter.

 

[shionoro]

What you say is of no relevance, his Nen got stronger, therefore, he is stronger.

You can delude yourself to think otherwise, doesn't really matter.

What i say has relevance in the question whether his nen actually got stronger.
Which is kinda doubtful.

First of all: It is not clear what machi meant. I just explained that. She might have meant what you said, but there are many other possibilities.
She might have meant small nenthreads which got stronger but not hisoka's overall nen (so only the casted nen, not the source from hisoka).
She might have meant the mechanic itself without judging the strength of nen.

And IF she actually meant what you think, it is equally possible that after hisoka's ressurection, his nen got back to normal, because the limitation (his death) was not intact anymore.

All in all there are many possibilities which sound a lot more plausible than your suggestion, so calling everything else wrong is not really reasonable.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

What i say has relevance in the question whether his nen actually got stronger.

It said it did, you'd have to simply be in denial to say otherwise.

Phinks and Chrollo have already stated Nen does get stronger through death too.

Even very likely that Hisoka decided to give this a shot in revelation to what Chrollo stated.


I don't believe anything you say as long as it's not relevant with the manga.

 

[shionoro]

It said it did, you'd have to simply be in denial to say otherwise.

Phinks and Chrollo have already stated Nen does get stronger through death too.

Even very likely that Hisoka decided to give this a shot in revelation to what Chrollo stated.

I don't believe anything you say as long as it's not relevant with the manga.

The pages you quoted have nothing to do with hisoka.
Once again 'nen' can mean the casted nen ability (and in fact does, because the user is dead in all cases except hisoka's).
There is nothing saying that any nen user gets stronger through death, because that case is completely new.
Whether the nen gets back to normal when he revives is a possibility you simply cannot deny.

And you believe things which are not actually part of the manga to be a fact, and that is kind of the problem here.