Horses?If you mean Dothraki then Braavos is safe from them along with Lys as these are basically islands with a sea in between them and the Dothraki.And in Night's watch he can be killed by the Wildings.He is just a boy of 15.This is specifically why i mentioned Braavos or Lys as two places for Jon to settle in.
Braavos is probably the best place to stay in entire Planetos.No slavery,no Wildlings,no Dothraki.
And why should he join Nights watch?He cannot hold lands,marry or raise a family.Even Benjen didn't want Jon joining Nights Watch.He cared more for Jon than Ned did.
Yeah i meant Daemon himself not killing Rhea.Note Rhea survived for few days before dying.If Daemon had hands in her killing she would have mentioned it.But any rate
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I don't mean he should have told Jon.Only Catelyn.
Jon believed he had no future in Westeros other than joining Nights watch.That is obviously wrong as we have instances of so many natural born children like Aurane Waters,Laurence Snow etc. who didn't join Nights Watch.Logically he should have given Jon a keep in the North.But he probably feared if Jon's true heritage is known Targaryen loyalists will rally behind Jon and overthrow his best friend Robert.That is why he tried to play safe by sending Jon to Night's watch and thereby ending his sister's line and Robert would have been safe too along with Jon.No doubt he is known in section of the fandom as "Eddard Baratheon".If he really cared that much about Jon,he should have told him,"Look Jon you may not have any future in Westeros,but in Essos no will care for your birth.Here take this gold and go to Braavos.I promise to send more money in future.Settle there,marry and raise a family."I am sure Jon would have definitely taken up the offer.
Joining the NW is much more of a custom in the North. Elsewhere it is seen as a last resort or a way to escape execution. We still don't know why Benjen joined and he wasn't a bastard like Jon. Jeor Mormont joined because he was old and wanted to make way for his son. Many in the North do not see it as some sort of punishment.
To his lady wife, definitely. But like I said, he calls the shots so as long as people are loyal to him it doesn't really matter how people see it.
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The Boltons aren't an honorable house though, obviously
What do you mean?
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If she was aware of who did it maybe
If Jon doesn't know then there would be no reason for him to be sent away to Essos. Maybe to be fostered somewhere, but not otherwise.
Joining the NW is much more of a custom in the North. Elsewhere it is seen as a last resort or a way to escape execution. We still don't know why Benjen joined and he wasn't a bastard like Jon. Jeor Mormont joined because he was old and wanted to make way for his son. Many in the North do not see it as some sort of punishment.
Not if you're a Targaryen and/or have dragonrider genes lol
And who in Braavos will know Jon is a Targaryen?If not Braavos then Lys...
And don't forget Viserys and Daenerys stayed in Braavos for quite sometime.The Sealord was even a witness in Oberyn signing the pact with the Targaryens.So it's not like they hate the Targaryens of the current generation.
Ned should know if Jon joins the Night's watch his sister's line will end.If he believed it was that much prestigious then he should have sent Robb to it.He was trying to protect Robert as much he was trying to protect Jon.In fact how many times did he even call Jon as "Jon" and not as "The Boy".I personally think it was more of his promise to his dying sister that he raised Jon.If he had loved him like a true uncle he should have done something for his future.He should have given him a keep somewhere in North.North is big and had lot of land.Or if he really tried to be safe he should have sent him to Essos.
And who in Braavos will know Jon is a Targaryen?If not Braavos then Lys...
And don't forget Viserys and Daenerys stayed in Braavos for quite sometime.The Sealord was even a witness in Oberyn signing the pact with the Targaryens.So it's not like they hate the Targaryens of the current generation.
Ned should know if Jon joins the Night's watch his sister's line will end.If he believed it was that much prestigious then he should have sent Robb to it.He was trying to protect Robert as much he was trying to protect Jon.In fact how many times did he even call Jon as "Jon" and not as "The Boy".I personally think it was more of his promise to his dying sister that he raised Jon.If he had loved him like a true uncle he should have done something for his future.He should have given him a keep somewhere in North.North is big and had lot of land.Or if he really tried to be safe he should have sent him to Essos.
If he rose up in rebellion. The Iron Bank is at play in the current story, as well as the Faceless Men. We don't fully understand the motivations involved with that marriage pact from a Braavosi perspective, but the Sealord is a separate entity for all we know.
Why would he send his heir to the Wall...? Plus, Jon chose this path for himself. Jon going to The Wall was the move that made the most amount of sense all things considered. Plus, for very obvious reasons Jon needs to be in the North, he literally is "Ice and Fire".
If he rose up in rebellion. The Iron Bank is at play in the current story, as well as the Faceless Men. We don't fully understand the motivations involved with that marriage pact from a Braavosi perspective, but the Sealord is a separate entity for all we know.
Why would he send his heir to the Wall...? Plus, Jon chose this path for himself. Jon going to The Wall was the move that made the most amount of sense all things considered. Plus, for very obvious reasons Jon needs to be in the North, he literally is "Ice and Fire".
Why do even think Jon will raise up in a rebellion if he doesn't know his true heritage.
And why will he send his heir to the wall?
Yes that's what i meant.When it comes to his children they need to stay in Winterfell and have families and marry but when it comes to his sister's son who coincidentally poses a great risk to his friend whom he cared more than his family then prestige issue becomes great.And no Jon didn't chose this path for himself,he was forced to chose it because he thought there was no other way for him.Lot of natural born children never took that path and led a happy life.Ned could have made Jon Robb's bannerman,or he could have joined some household in the North,they would have obviously taken Jon as Laurence Snow was fostered in some house i think.So if the Warden of the North asked the Northern houses they would have taken Jon.Or he could have set up as a trader in Essos.So you can see Ned had lot of options for Jon but he didn't do a single thing out of this.
Why do even think Jon will raise up in a rebellion if he doesn't know his true heritage.
And why will he send his heir to the wall?
Yes that's what i meant.When it comes to his children they need to stay in Winterfell and have families and marry but when it comes to his sister's son who coincidentally poses a great risk to his friend whom he cared more than his family then prestige issue becomes great.And no Jon didn't chose this path for himself,he was forced to chose it because he thought there was no other way for him.Lot of natural born children never took that path and led a happy life.Ned could have made Jon Robb's bannerman,or he could have joined some household in the North,they would have obviously taken Jon as Laurence Snow was fostered in some house i think.So if the Warden of the North asked the Northern houses they would have taken Jon.Or he could have set up as a trader in Essos.So you can see Ned had lot of options for Jon but he didn't do a single thing out of this.
The original premise was Jon knowing, but I guess I misread. Still, if only 2 people know, there's no reason to send Jon anywhere outside of Westeros.
You said send Robb if it's so prestigious.
Jon chose to join the NW because he wanted to be like his uncle Benjen. Ned had the idea to make more lords in the New Gift, yes. The entire situation was what it was because Ned felt he couldn't bring him South and Catelyn didn't want him to stay. The latter is absurd though and her grief-stricken behavior due to Bran's accident shouldn't be looked at the same way IMO. In any case, Jon didn't have to join, it's a decision he made. One that he tried to renege on once he learned Robb called his banners.
I can see Jon being fostered somewhere, if Catelyn still insisted upon it (I have my doubts), but him going to Essos is insane IMO, unless it's something he wanted to do.
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Welp, kinda offtopic convo I guess lol....
So, have people been enjoying it so far? Looks like next week's finale will probably be ending on the way most people were expecting.
Why do even think Jon will raise up in a rebellion if he doesn't know his true heritage.
And why will he send his heir to the wall?
Yes that's what i meant.When it comes to his children they need to stay in Winterfell and have families and marry but when it comes to his sister's son who coincidentally poses a great risk to his friend whom he cared more than his family then prestige issue becomes great.And no Jon didn't chose this path for himself,he was forced to chose it because he thought there was no other way for him.Lot of natural born children never took that path and led a happy life.Ned could have made Jon Robb's bannerman,or he could have joined some household in the North,they would have obviously taken Jon as Laurence Snow was fostered in some house i think.So if the Warden of the North asked the Northern houses they would have taken Jon.Or he could have set up as a trader in Essos.So you can see Ned had lot of options for Jon but he didn't do a single thing out of this.
No one sent jon to the wall. Jon specifically wanted to join. And he was literally given every chance to back out. Ned didn't want him to join the night's watch but he respected the decision jon made. Not sure of how he could have been set up as a trader in Esos. As far as I can tell the starks are more in the "Working is for peasants" side of things.
No one sent jon to the wall. Jon specifically wanted to join. And he was literally given every chance to back out. Ned didn't want him to join the night's watch but he respected the decision jon made. Not sure of how he could have been set up as a trader in Esos. As far as I can tell the starks are more in the "Working is for peasants" side of things.
Once again Jon wanted to join the watch because he thought that was the only future for him.If Ned had made some other provisions for him,i really doubt Jon would have joined the watch.At least Ned should have told him that he has these opportunities - like fostering in other houses, becoming Robb's bannerman etc in life before taking up the Black but he didn't.Heck Benjen argued more against Jon joining the watch than Ned ever did.
I mean Look at Aurane Waters,he was with Lord Velaryon his brother,Jon could have become like that with his brother Robb or fostered in some Northern House like Laurence Snow.Ned never gave Jon these options.
Once again Jon wanted to join the watch because he thought that was the only future for him.If Ned had made some other provisions for him,i really doubt Jon would have joined the watch.At least Ned should have told him that he has these opportunities - like fostering in other houses, becoming Robb's bannerman etc in life before taking up the Black but he didn't.Heck Benjen argued more against Jon joining the watch than Ned ever did.
I mean Look at Aurane Waters,he was with Lord Velaryon his brother,Jon could have become like that with his brother Robb or fostered in some Northern House like Laurence Snow.Ned never gave Jon these options.
A bannerman? As far as I understand a bannerman is not a title. It's not like jon could be proclaimed bannerman and he would immediately be able to serve as one. Bannermen are vassals who in turn command people. Where would these people come from? Ned might have been warden of the north but even he can't conjure loyalty for jon out of thin air. Maybe rob can gather his own vassals but that's a fairly steep climb for a bastard. And jon most definitely knew he had other options. And in spite of ned's objections jon decided to go with the option that made his bastard status irrelevant and had a fancy (though not quite) lordship at the end.
A bannerman? As far as I understand a bannerman is not a title. It's not like jon could be proclaimed bannerman and he would immediately be able to serve as one. Bannermen are vassals who in turn command people. Where would these people come from? Ned might have been warden of the north but even he can't conjure loyalty for jon out of thin air. Maybe rob can gather his own vassals but that's a fairly steep climb for a bastard. And jon most definitely knew he had other options. And in spite of ned's objections jon decided to go with the option that made his bastard status irrelevant and had a fancy (though not quite) lordship at the end.
Bannerman,landed knight whatever you may say.Yes Ned could have done that but he didn't.North had lot of empty places for Jon to raise a holdfast there...
And no Jon definitely didn't know about other options.Go read Jon chapter 1 in AGOT.
He argues with Benjen regarding this. He literally says Robb would some day inherit Winterfell and become Warden of the North.Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name.Arya and Sansa would marry heirs of other great houses and go south as mistresses of castles of their own.And then he literally says what place could a bastard hope to earn?
This itself shows Jon didn't know what he could have done apart from joining Night's watch.Ned never gave him the option of running a holdfast in Robb's name or fostering in any Northern House like Laurence Snow.And the last option going to Essos becoming a Magister.
At the very least he should have thought about the first two options.
Bannerman,landed knight whatever you may say.Yes Ned could have done that but he didn't.North had lot of empty places for Jon to raise a holdfast there...
And no Jon definitely didn't know about other options.Go read Jon chapter 1 in AGOT.
He argues with Benjen regarding this. He literally says Robb would some day inherit Winterfell and become Warden of the North.Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name.Arya and Sansa would marry heirs of other great houses and go south as mistresses of castles of their own.And then he literally says what place could a bastard hope to earn?
This itself shows Jon didn't know what he could have done apart from joining Night's watch.Ned never gave him the option of running a holdfast in Robb's name or fostering in any Northern House like Laurence Snow.And the last option going to Essos becoming a Magister.
At the very least he should have thought about the first two options.
But... the implication in the very thing you quoted is that those specifically weren't options for jon. That said, it is true the books do not address the options jon had, we are only at technically both benjen and ned did not agree with jon joining a penal colony. And as I said, jon was a bastard. Giving jon a holdfast does not automatically translate to the vassals there being loyal to him. Bastards are borderline subhuman among westeros elites, giving jon a hold along with the vassals runs the risk of souring the stark's relations with the folk there. Step one for the specific things you mention there would be legitimization by the throne. Ned could recognize jon but not de-bastardize him after all. As far as I can tell the most obvious path for jon would have been knighthood along with the potential military career it provided. Though of course that falls short of an actual lordships which his brothers were headed to. Even with a knight's career, his bastardy would have followed him throughout. Let alone that even as a landed knight his marriage options would have probably be inferior to that of even lowborn average knights. While a member of the night's watch can't marry, there was an actual path to lordship here, something which a career as a knight almost definitely didn't include.
a magister? how? As far as I know westeros nobility can't simply fart ruling positions in free cities into existence. Otherwise they wouldn't exactly be free cities. I suppose money comes a long way but that doesn't seem like something the starks would do nor do they appear to shit gold in general. That's more like the lannister's thing.
The entire situation was spurned on by two things. Jon wanting to make something of himself, and Catelyn not wanting Jon at Winterfell when Ned left South to become The Hand of the King. Catelyn was grief-stricken, and shortly left Winterfell herself, and her whole monologue about not wanting Jon around to challenge her children's inheritance is complete horseshit and everyone knows that. And we know this because had Jon been in Winterfell when Theon came, the entire situation could/would have been different, and Catelyn would have been thankful. Catelyn's attitude towards Jon being named Robb's heir is nowhere near as contemptuous as one would have expected.
A bastard 14 year old is not being given land. Jon thinks about this in SoS at one point, but blamed it on Ned not wanting to settle new lordships in the New Gift with winter being on the horizon.
Ned though of Jon as his own because he knew his origins. His children were raised to treat him as their brother because that's how they were raised. But Jon was still a bastard in the eyes of everyone else. Could he have gone to Essos? Sure. Would Ned have supported that more than anything else? Absolutely not. He raised him as his own, he wouldn't want any of his children to be sellswords. Ned's attitude towards the NW would be more grounded in tradition than anyone else, and his younger brother also served in it. Despite their reservations about his age, he would have thought as highly of that option as anything. Remember, this is Ned, uber-duty guy.
The only other viable option would have been to send Jon as a ward to one of Ned's allies or something, but that didn't happen for obvious story reasons.
So.... this last episode felt rather lackluster somehow. The past two were rather excellent but this one somehow missed the mark even though cool things actually happened.
It was obvious to most people who read the books what event the show would end on for this first season. The follow-up is quite something as well though, so this might mirror how Season 4 ended with the Red Wedding and then Season 5 started with the Purple Wedding. Except how the beginning of the next season is handled should have a lot of far-reaching story implications and the source material is again very ambiguous when it comes to certain things.
This version with Aemond not meaning to kill Luke is just... nonsensical though. It doesn't line up with anything else the adult version of Aemond has done so far, so I don't quite get the point of adding that kind of pathos for him.
Also, the internet making some huge commotion over Daemon being rough with Rhaenyra is just so weird and misguided to me. Way too much of the complaints involve shippers who expect some sort of story-book romance between these two for zero reasons supported in the book at all. It's just mind-numbing.
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Also the bit with the prophecy and Daemon not knowing is kind of.... weird? Daemon was Viserys' heir, so he should have been told, according to his tradition. But even though it seems like he didn't, Daemon is obviously very learned about their family's history, and spent 10 years in Pentos immersed in books and scrolls and all sorts of shit. The Prince that was Promised is not some secret scripture, especially not in fucking Essos. Aegon himself dreaming about it and in more detail would be new info, but him scoffing at it just rang false for me for some reason.
Also, Rhaenys' approval of how Rhaenyra was handling her council doesn't really make much sense either. Corlys himself insulted her in private, and they are both still doubting of her involvement in Laenor's death. Yet how she shows restraint is the tipping point for her? Not that their only kin are betrothed to her sons? You know, the one that will be King some day and the other one that will rule Driftmark? That whole dynamic doesn't really make a lot of sense.
Also Seasmoke still being at the Dragonmont despite Laenor leaving is kind of an issue when it comes to what we know about dragons and dragonriders. Obviously it makes zero sense that Laenor would try to be incognito in Essos while a dragon is following him around, but Seasmoke still having a living rider but essentially being treated like he's riderless like Silverwing and Vermithor is a potential problem.
Also that scene with Daemon and Vermithor was interesting. I guess it displays his ability to assuage them for future purposes of getting more dragonriders on their side. But I hope it's not some sort of implication that he'll have control over more than just Caraxes. That would also have some weird story implications.
"I wanted to gouge your eye out, not kill you.". I almost laughed through the dragon battle, it felt a bit too much like "How to train your dragon". Except screw physics and the small dragon was not faster than the gigantic one. I did like that the dragons simply ignored their rider's wishes though. A reminder that even bonded dragons are ultimately fickle and dangerous.
I was caught a bit off guard by how daemon reacted. Mostly because I thought the power dynamic in the relationship was a bit different. but it turns out it's only like that publicly... if that. Maybe within westeros the prince that was promised and the song of ice and fire are different? As in, same prophecy, different source? I am not sure of how vyceris knew of the song of ice and fire if only the king is supposed to know.
I was caught a bit off guard by how daemon reacted. Mostly because I thought the power dynamic in the relationship was a bit different. but it turns out it's only like that publicly... if that. Maybe within westeros the prince that was promised and the song of ice and fire are different? As in, same prophecy, different source? I am not sure of how vyceris knew of the song of ice and fire if only the king is supposed to know.
The song of ice and fire is only mention once in the books, via Dany's vision in the House of Undying of Rhaegar talking about it in reference to his son Aegon that he had with Elia Martell.
TPTWP is mentioned pretty much interchangeably with Azor Ahai, so this prophecy is not really different since it deals with the same subjects and events. There's even more legends pertaining to a hero that fights back against the darkness of winter - The Last Hero, Hyrkoon the Hero, Eldric Shadowchaser, etc. It's very deliberate that this concept exists in many places in the world but dealing with the same subject. Even more so that there are structure(s) analogous to The Wall that exist elsewhere in the world.
The point is it's not a unique or secret revelation. This being the reason why Aegon looked West and decided to conquer Westeros after the Targaryens were mostly unassuming and isolated on Dragonstone for like 100+ years makes a bit more sense. The Targaryens fleeing Valyria did so because of prophecy, so they'd listen to it before most people. I guess you could chalk up his reaction to not being told about it by Viserys, which I guess I'd be pissed about too. Like I said, he was his heir.
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So glad that mainstream media is contributing to the discourse of this show!
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This is a a prime example of loving something but resenting it's success
Yeah, tongue-in-cheek shipping is fine I guess but some people base their enjoyment of the series on how that all plays out and it's pretty annoying. Especially since no such relationship even existed in the book. I don't have an issue with them making them closer in age and leaning into it though, it serves for better drama I guess.
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