Last 16: Match up 5!: Blackbeard vs. Enel

[Mr. Arashi]

Has any of you considered that Enel could just (considering how arrogant he is) flash appear near BB and flash disappear after whopping BB's skull with the mothaF^%@%# IRON ROD that he has? only doing that would KICK in every sense BB. Since he is slow and would not be able to react to the speed of enel's lighting body and in case he tries to catch up, there's always mantra to predict his next move. WOW

I DARE SOMEONE TO COUNTER THAT STRATEGY

I take the challenge!

The second time Enel goes near Teach to strike. This right-side part is waiting for him. I called it Vertical Blackhole

Easy.

http://www.mangareader.net/103-2377-14/one-piece/chapter-270.html - see that little bit of lightning? That was Enel. He can teleport if he wants - Useful for avoiding the highly-directional Kurouzo...

Now, all of this is Enel not fighting seriously - if this in inadequate I'll link to more pages of his fight vs Luffy (when his powers were nullified), although I do think it proves my point...

Enel cannot teleport, he moves just like anyone but in a electrical way. It means that gravity can absorb it either electrical or physical.

About fighting serious, i though that was obvious for all the versus.

 

[Kazu-Sama]

Enel cannot teleport, he moves just like anyone but in a electrical way. It means that gravity can absorb it either electrical or physical.

About fighting serious, i though that was obvious for all the versus.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v46/c441/9.html - in the interest of a balanced argument I read this and thought it should be brought up - BB specifically saying thunder can be absorbed. But I presume he means lightning...

Still, the same page shows BB using Kurouzo on Ace, and sucking in Ace. Not Ace and the ruins he was on, not even his hat, just Ace. So with that and Enel's ability to move at speed, plus the time it takes to use Kurouzo (it's shown to have more of a charge-up time than most of Enel's attacks), he can move enough to not get sucked in. Kurouzo is powerful, but it's very, very directional. His Black Hole attack can be dodged by Enel even jumping, as Ace on his small patch of building wasn't sucked in...

Plus, http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v46/c441/11.html shows BB saying he needs to be in physical contact to neutralise his powers. And Enel, with all his speed and power, makes excellent use of his staff, as shown in his fight with Luffy. Plus, his Mantra uses have already been shown in avoiding attacks.

The point about fighting serious was that everything I've linked to here involving Enel is him not fighting seriously. He's enjoying the game, trying about as much as the admirals did vs the vast amounts of WB fodder. He's that powerful when not being serious, so if he goes all out (vs someone without Luffy's Plothax) then the damage he'll be able to cause will be even larger...

 

[Leonsagara]

In reference to the page you referred to, Blackbeard says his fruit precisely sucks in the DF user's body. That's why the ruins around Ace didn't move, only Ace himself did. Precisely targeting the body also suggests that once you're targeted, there's no escape, even for someone as fast as Enel. You can't run fast enough to escape gravity. And where did it show to have a charge-up time? BB just uses it instantly in that page.

 

[Kazu-Sama]

In reference to the page you referred to, Blackbeard says his fruit precisely sucks in the DF user's body. That's why the ruins around Ace didn't move, only Ace himself did. Precisely targeting the body also suggests that once you're targeted, there's no escape, even for someone as fast as Enel. You can't run fast enough to escape gravity. And where did it show to have a charge-up time? BB just uses it instantly in that page.

If the move sucks in the DF's body (which, by the way, it didn't in the Anime - it sucked in the hat first of all) then Enel can just go into lightning and avoid it. When he turned into lightning, he vanished - even if he didn't teleport, then his body is still not there. He might have merged into the ground, or moved through the air as lightning, but either way he's no longer absorbable. Because how can you absorb what's not there? Check the bit where he kinda teleports, once he changes he's vanished. And he changed a lot faster than it took Ace to be pulled in.

As for the Charge-up time, I took the darkness in BB's hand in the frame before his use of Korouzo to be him increasing the amount of darkness. In fact, when he went on fire he was absorbing darkness into himself - for what purpose if not for the gravity?

 

[Josear XIII]

I take the challenge!

The second time Enel goes near Teach to strike. This right-side part is waiting for him. I called it Vertical Blackhole

Easy.

Enel cannot teleport, he moves just like anyone but in a electrical way. It means that gravity can absorb it either electrical or physical.

About fighting serious, i though that was obvious for all the versus.

Kazu analysis is more than precise on the matter of justify speed vs gravitation effect of bb

Also for the sake of a second time attack (considering BB just didnt just felt the impact in one of the weakest bones and major weakpoints of humans) and must i say that he absorbs everything so he wont dogde the pain the full impact of that staff will go right through his skull, but lets say he is in a very good condition (impossible) to prepare himself for another attack and enel goes at it mmmm let me think..... mantra? "I predict that you are about to release one big ass attack I just flash my ass away" and remember all the angles from were a sneak attack can come from, and BB must first predict that (which he cant)

 

[Leonsagara]

If the move sucks in the DF's body (which, by the way, it didn't in the Anime - it sucked in the hat first of all) then Enel can just go into lightning and avoid it. When he turned into lightning, he vanished - even if he didn't teleport, then his body is still not there. He might have merged into the ground, or moved through the air as lightning, but either way he's no longer absorbable. Because how can you absorb what's not there? Check the bit where he kinda teleports, once he changes he's vanished. And he changed a lot faster than it took Ace to be pulled in.

As for the Charge-up time, I took the darkness in BB's hand in the frame before his use of Korouzo to be him increasing the amount of darkness. In fact, when he went on fire he was absorbing darkness into himself - for what purpose if not for the gravity?

By that logic, Ace could have just turned into fire and avoided being sucked in, yet he wasn't able to. You ignored the word I specifically bolded for emphasis. It seems that once you're targeted, there's no escape. Lightning isn't fast enough to escape gravity. Even when Ace managed to counterattack, he was still being sucked in. And BB almost broke his neck, despite the pain and distraction from being hit by Ace's flames.

 

[0Xellos]

But Ace was shown to be roughly equal to Smoker, who is almost certainly the weakest of all the Logia users we've seen. Ace had a high bounty because of who he was, not who he beat.

Btw., which manga chapter was shown that Ace was fighting equal against Smoker? If I remember right, it was just a filler and they forgot that Ace has a haki.

I believe I didn't miss anyone already answering that
In Alabasta, when Smoker was chasing Luffy and Ace intervened, Ace mentioned that he's a bad matchup for Smoker (fire beats smoke just like magma beats fire), so Smoker should give it up. Seriously, Smoker shouldn't have been able to hold a candle against haki-using WB commander with a superior DF.

---

But if OP physics works at least roughly like the real one, as long as Enel moves at the speed of light, Kurouzu should need to touch him to actually attract him (we can think of it as our well-known black holes, and the area we see black as the horizon of events). Think about it: if Enel, who moves at the speed of light, can't escape, then the whole space BB targets is black, because there's no other light escaping, either

 

[Josear XIII]

By that logic, Ace could have just turned into fire and avoided being sucked in, yet he wasn't able to. You ignored the word I specifically bolded for emphasis. It seems that once you're targeted, there's no escape. Lightning isn't fast enough to escape gravity. Even when Ace managed to counterattack, he was still being sucked in. And BB almost broke his neck, despite the pain and distraction from being hit by Ace's flames.

Huh Fire and lighting are 2 very different in property elements. Just considering the speed in which Lighting moves, no i dont think even if ace would have turned into fire, he wont be able to escape.

Its not a question of once you are targeted, but if you remain in the zone of the effect effect. Fire Fist ace is not known for being the fastest around, nor flames or better said fire has the property of moving at light speed, if you are in the range is gonna suck you but BB has to actually target you for that and with a enel bashing BB skull every damn time, i dont see how your targeting zone would be much a problem for Enel

 

[Mr. Arashi]

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v46/c441/9.html - in the interest of a balanced argument I read this and thought it should be brought up - BB specifically saying thunder can be absorbed. But I presume he means lightning...

Still, the same page shows BB using Kurouzo on Ace, and sucking in Ace. Not Ace and the ruins he was on, not even his hat, just Ace. So with that and Enel's ability to move at speed, plus the time it takes to use Kurouzo (it's shown to have more of a charge-up time than most of Enel's attacks), he can move enough to not get sucked in. Kurouzo is powerful, but it's very, very directional. His Black Hole attack can be dodged by Enel even jumping, as Ace on his small patch of building wasn't sucked in...

Hey thanks about that mention.

So, you're implying that Teach can pull out what he wants to? It would make sense because i remember Luffy was in front a crowd in Impel Down and only him was sucked. Whether this happening in reality, i suppose that the only way to escape of Kurouzu is attacking Teach, and i doubt that Enel in his electrical state would be able to do that.

 

[Kazu-Sama]

Hey thanks about that mention.

So, you're implying that Teach can pull out what he wants to? It would make sense because i remember Luffy was in front a crowd in Impel Down and only him was sucked. Whether this happening in reality, i suppose that the only way to escape of Kurouzu is attacking Teach, and i doubt that Enel in his electrical state would be able to do that.

Okay, I've had enough of the absorbing debate. Next question is, even if Blackbeard CAN absorb Enel, his staff and Mantra aren't enough to stop BB grabbing him, then what's to say he'll survive Enel's counter-attack? Enel showed that with one 200th of his power, in his weakest attack, he could easily fry and incapacate the likes of Sanji with ease. In fact, the only moves he used on people that aren't immune are Thor, his basic attack (at low voltage) and the 30,000,000 volt bird. So, if he were to go serious, and start attacking with the sort of moves he used against Luffy - moves 7 times stronger than the one he used against Zoro which completely incapacitated him - then how do you know BB will survive? Or, at least, be able to fight back.

Just to confirm, I'm not saying BB is weak, nor am I belittling him. I'm just saying this is a bad match-up for him, one I simply can't see him winning. Of course, he'll win in the votes anyway, but still...

Here (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v46/c441/8.html) Ace uses a weak move and it has BB rolling on the floor. Enel has shown he can generate enough heat to turn gold into a liquid with immense ease, and his full moveset (moves like 200 million volts, 60 million volt Julungul, or 200 million volt amaru) then what's to say it won't fry BB? I've already posted a link to show Enel electrocuting someone through his staff, so if BB grabs Enel he could just electrocute him. BB has great endurance, but he isn't invincible, nor is he immune to pain.

Enel has used Thor (with no effort) in order to completely destroy Wiper, and burn a hole pretty deep into the ground. Were it not for Luffy's immunity, then there's no reason to suggest he would have survived even half of Enel's full power. Say you are right, and turning into lightning isn't fast enough to escape (by the way, you want a fun experiment? Set up a row of lighter fluid, light it, and see if it gets up to lightning's speed of at least 3700 miles per second. I doubt it - Ace isn't as fast as Enel) AND BB manages to survive being blitzed by Thor (which alone has more destructive property than Ace) then how will he survive Amaru - a body of pure electricity. And I don't mean the typical Logia being ability type, I mean a full-blown lightning form - see http://www.mangareader.net/103-2405-5/one-piece/chapter-298.html. BB tries to grab Enel in that form, he WILL get electrocuted. Badly. And as Magellan and Ace showed, BB's DF has the huge liability of letting him take every move.

EDIT: Disclamer. Kazu-sama is not in any way, shape or form responsible for damages or injuries caused by testing the speed at which fire moves. All experiments are done at the participant's own risk, and other than thinking it'll look cool Kazu-sama does not in any way endorse the idea.

 

[Josear XIII]

EDIT:

Okay, I've had enough of the absorbing debate. Next question is, even if Blackbeard CAN absorb Enel, his staff and Mantra aren't enough to stop BB grabbing him, then what's to say he'll survive Enel's counter-attack? Enel showed that with one 200th of his power, in his weakest attack, he could easily fry and incapacate the likes of Sanji with ease. In fact, the only moves he used on people that aren't immune are Thor, his basic attack (at low voltage) and the 30,000,000 volt bird. So, if he were to go serious, and start attacking with the sort of moves he used against Luffy - moves 7 times stronger than the one he used against Zoro which completely incapacitated him - then how do you know BB will survive? Or, at least, be able to fight back.

Just to confirm, I'm not saying BB is weak, nor am I belittling him. I'm just saying this is a bad match-up for him, one I simply can't see him winning. Of course, he'll win in the votes anyway, but still...

Here (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v46/c441/8.html) Ace uses a weak move and it has BB rolling on the floor. Enel has shown he can generate enough heat to turn gold into a liquid with immense ease, and his full moveset (moves like 200 million volts, 60 million volt Julungul, or 200 million volt amaru) then what's to say it won't fry BB? I've already posted a link to show Enel electrocuting someone through his staff, so if BB grabs Enel he could just electrocute him. BB has great endurance, but he isn't invincible, nor is he immune to pain.

Enel has used Thor (with no effort) in order to completely destroy Wiper, and burn a hole pretty deep into the ground. Were it not for Luffy's immunity, then there's no reason to suggest he would have survived even half of Enel's full power. Say you are right, and turning into lightning isn't fast enough to escape (by the way, you want a fun experiment? Set up a row of lighter fluid, light it, and see if it gets up to lightning's speed of 3700 miles per second. I doubt it - Ace isn't as fast as Enel) AND BB manages to survive being blitzed by Thor (which alone has more destructive property than Ace) then how will he survive Amaru - a body of pure electricity. And I don't mean the typical Logia being ability type, I mean a full-blown lightning form - see http://www.mangareader.net/103-2405-5/one-piece/chapter-298.html. BB tries to grab Enel in that form, he WILL get electrocuted. Badly. And as Magellan and Ace showed, BB's DF has the huge liability of letting him take every move.

And remember to add that he will absorb every bit of a n attack even if it kills him, he's not immortal so it would really be easy for enel to own him, i totally agree with the fact that BB is not weak but he just have the worst match against enel.

Hey thanks about that mention.

So, you're implying that Teach can pull out what he wants to? It would make sense because i remember Luffy was in front a crowd in Impel Down and only him was sucked. Whether this happening in reality, i suppose that the only way to escape of Kurouzu is attacking Teach, and i doubt that Enel in his electrical state would be able to do that.

Hence my strategy about enel pummeling BB skull from the back, I only make him rely on the speed that grants him, with just that critical hit laid on teach head as a first move after seeing that lighting dont work on ol BB(i'm sorry, I'm very deep into martial arts and I rely my strategies on combat experience) teach would be at his mercy per strike in the back of the head and eventual feints to just hit him upfront or crush his kneecaps with that Rod, Mantra make up for all the % of risk in any moves he pull on Teach.

I dont understimate teach he is one heavy motha^$^%, against any normal speed adversary he will must likely have the upper hand, but counting this is one of the worst match he can have, also against a experienced haki user who dont use DF powers, he is just so damn slow he is a tank takes heavy hits and have powerful attacks but no tank last forever. People should just recon this fact.

 

[Leonsagara]

Meh, I'm tired of this debate. BB might get a small shock from touching Enel in his lightning form, but his touch also should cancel it immediately, so it's hard to say if he would actually take that much damage. Either way, their fight probably wouldn't get to that point. BB will finish off Enel fairly quickly, IMO. and this is going to be my last post about this fight.

 

[Josear XIII]

Of course you are tired, the only argument on BB side is:

-He will touch him and cancel his DF powers and he wins.

What the hell kind of biased logic is that?! Like Enel will go all Touch me DUDE im right here.

Enel side is always giving facts of how the fight will go and BB side is just, Cancel devil fruit cancel devil fruit BB ownz him BB wins. I dont see comparison in combat skills, i dont see factors taken into account, i dont see even logic points taken in account.

You all are practically saying, HEY I CAN BEAT MOHAMED ALI IF I HIT HIM IN THE CHIN WITH ALL MY STRENGH HE'S FINISHED. now go and touch Mohamed Ali. all comments on BB side are like this, its lame (no offense intended) its either you back up really good BB's victory or you are just spouting nonsense, anyways he's going to win based on votes, not because any of what was said on his defense deserve any merits whatsoever.

 

[SuperPeon]

Of course you are tired, the only argument on BB side is:

-He will touch him and cancel his DF powers and he wins.

What the hell kind of biased logic is that?! Like Enel will go all Touch me DUDE im right here.

Enel side is always giving facts of how the fight will go and BB side is just, Cancel devil fruit cancel devil fruit BB ownz him BB wins. I dont see comparison in combat skills, i dont see factors taken into account, i dont see even logic points taken in account.

You all are practically saying, HEY I CAN BEAT MOHAMED ALI IF I HIT HIM IN THE CHIN WITH ALL MY STRENGH HE'S FINISHED. now go and touch Mohamed Ali. all comments on BB side are like this, its lame (no offense intended) its either you back up really good BB's victory or you are just spouting nonsense, anyways he's going to win based on votes, not because any of what was said on his defense deserve any merits whatsoever.

Chill dude... We don't know who MOHAMED ALI is... is he Muhammad Ali? But Enel is no Ali anyway. We're just telling you how could BB win and thazzit! But Unfortunately, you seem to underestimate how powerful Kurouzo is.

http://www1.watchop.com/watch/one-piece-episode-485-english-subbed/ By Kurouzo, that's how BB would use it... negate opponent's fruit... But since he has improved, I could imagine BB using two DFs at the same time. Using Kurouzu then releasing some shockwave thru Gura Gura fruit. That way they would not need physical contact. Even using Gura Gura to the face would be much deadlier even if Enel tries to hit him with his Trident. BB getting hit is no biggie... I believe that Trident's electricity would also be negated.

 

[Ninja_Pirate]

Seriously... why such a debate.... BB is a yonkou now... And Enel has been handed over his ass by Luffy .. When there were no gears for luffy to move fast.. no Armament haki... With the last attack.. before getting hit.. Enel sail "Too Fast" And Kazu-Sama you are talking that he was in his giant form and thats the reason he couldnt move fast .. but wasnt he be able to just vanish as you said...

here http://www.mangareader.net/103-2548-15/one-piece/chapter-441.html BB specifically said even light cannot escape his darkness.. And thats a known scientific fact.. Light cannot escape a BLACK HOLE...because for black hole mass tends to zero giving it an infinite gravitational force...

BB will just make a black hole at his side if Enel will fight like counter strike is going on and no face to face battle... no lightining strike will touch BB as the same will be sucked in the black hole... Strategy ...

As for Ace vs BB fight... BB was just showing off and was not serious... http://www.mangareader.net/103-2548-15/one-piece/chapter-441.html on this page when ace says .. its not coming towards me.. he is like "not yet... let me show off first" and that is all we are talking about two years back when he didn't have two fruits...

BB clearly wins... Think and weigh your options properly before you vote.. I believe once done you cant change your opinion

 

[kulugo]

i hate BB so im gonna vote Enel.

 

[Ninja_Pirate]

Before voting against BB , do remember this page of one piece

Yes.. I want him to win.. so that I can win in the "Bet thread" ..and for that I am ready to play this cheap sentimental card

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Well played sir. Well played.

 

[Kazu-Sama]

Seriously... why such a debate.... BB is a yonkou now... And Enel has been handed over his ass by Luffy .. When there were no gears for luffy to move fast.. no Armament haki... With the last attack.. before getting hit.. Enel sail "Too Fast" And Kazu-Sama you are talking that he was in his giant form and thats the reason he couldnt move fast .. but wasnt he be able to just vanish as you said...

here http://www.mangareader.net/103-2548-15/one-piece/chapter-441.html BB specifically said even light cannot escape his darkness.. And thats a known scientific fact.. Light cannot escape a BLACK HOLE...because for black hole mass tends to zero giving it an infinite gravitational force...

BB will just make a black hole at his side if Enel will fight like counter strike is going on and no face to face battle... no lightining strike will touch BB as the same will be sucked in the black hole... Strategy ...

As for Ace vs BB fight... BB was just showing off and was not serious... http://www.mangareader.net/103-2548-15/one-piece/chapter-441.html on this page when ace says .. its not coming towards me.. he is like "not yet... let me show off first" and that is all we are talking about two years back when he didn't have two fruits...

BB clearly wins... Think and weigh your options properly before you vote.. I believe once done you cant change your opinion

This debate is solely because people say things like this. Enel was lightning. Luffy was Rubber. Saying 'Enel lost to Luffy, he's weaker' is like saying 'Buggy could fight vs Mihawk, so he's as strong'. DF abilities have a huge, huge effect on the battle. It's why I don't vote for people I haven't seen.

I think you've got my argument slightly confused - I'm saying he can actually vanish into the ground, then move at lightning speeds away from BB while not in Amaru form (which he's shown he can do) to potentially escape from Kurouzo (which is shown to be incredibly directional and targetted), and even if he can't he can go into Amaru. BB has already shown himself not to be immune to pain. Also, I think you misunderstand BB's power - when he absorbs things, he takes full damage from it. He can't just make a black hole. have the electricity go into that while he plunders and loots to his hearts content - if he uses Kurouzo or another power, and Enel attacks, he will get hit. Not might, not 'if Enel aims well', he will.

Yes, I agree BB wasn't fighting fully seriously against Ace, but then again Enel wasn't fighting seriously against anyone other than Luffy (against which his powers were nullified). And fighting casually, BB was set on fire repeatedly and had two flaming spears through his chest. Fighting casually, Enel took no damage (well, other than dying. Of course, that can't stop him...)

You can change your vote (there's a button on the voting bit) but I don't need to. I've re-read all of Enel's parts, and I've re-read all of BB's parts, in order to make sure I can guess how the battle would go. And I don't see a way that BB could win.

Also, LeonSagara, I know you're not posting again but I'm trying to refute all the BB points that are made, to see if I can. 200 million volts is not a 'small shock', and if Enel is in Amaru it would not be nullified. He's not in his Lightning-Logia form, he's actually a being of pure lightning. If he was in his regular body, then yes, BB could theoretically grab him and nullify his Logia defence, but at the same time Enel has shown his offensive powers to be far, far greater than 'touch me and get a small static electricity rush.' With Thor, he'll be pushing BB 100 feet into the ground. With Julungul, he will be electrocuting him badly from range, and looking badass while doing it. With Max 200 million volts, he could shock BB as soon as BB grabbed him with the force of lightning. With lightning, he could heat his staff enough to re-forge it into a large weapon, which he's shown he can electrocute. And, of course, with Amaru, he could sit back and shoot giant lightning blasts at BB. Now, none of these are avoidable with BB's Yami Yami no mi, he will take all of them. And he will take all of them repeatedly.

And if you check the bet thread, you'll see that I bet on BB to win this match. Because he will, no amount of logic could prevent that with all the quiet voters, but I want it to be close and I do think Enel would realistically win...

 

[Ninja_Pirate]

If we go by the logic you are giving .. Enel will be the undefeated champion .. against Shanks... against WB .. against Sengkou ... But I don’t see that as the case...
As for the BBs ability.. I guess you are underestimating the same ...If you could see that when BB used his fruit he covered the whole village... thats what we are talking about.. his fruit power is too haxed... He can be damaged but thats only by physical attacks.. the way how WB damaged him..

First time when he got burned by Ace s fire.. he was busy demonstrating his powers.. When BB got a hang of it he absorbed the fire from his body and then only he delivered that dialogue that his powers can absorb anything.. be it fire.. thunder etc...

From The statement of BB s crew mate here http://www.mangareader.net/103-2548-24/one-piece/chapter-441.html it is clear that BB can only be damaged by physical attacks and not by DFs powers... and by now after he would have practised with his fruits for two years now.. I think BB is one hard to defeat...

Kazu Sama .. I think you have already made up your mind on this fight and any sort of argument will not be able to break it..