Politics Rise of Marxism/Communism.

[ninjabot]

In practice I would argue those two are the same. I mean, how do you have "the people" own the means of production? Do you distribute shares from means of production equally across the people?

Mhm!

One way or the other you get back to the government handling this. In the failed socialists models from the 20th century (cuba, the soviet union, you name it) this is pretty much what they went for.

Well... not necessarily. Copying this guy's sentiment from a quora thread:

Social Democracy refers to a political, social and economic ideology that supports capitalism and private enterprise, while at the same time using proactive interventions to promote social justice, and address market failures, within the framework of a democratic government. It recognizes the failures of capitalism in environmental damage, social injustice and social costs; addressing these with legislation, regulations and active enforcement. It is a movement which is very popular in Europe (Wiki 1).

Democratic socialism is a political, social and economic ideology which seeks public control over the means of production using democratic process as opposed to what it perceives as undemocratic process (such as communism). Democratic socialists oppose the authoritarian forms of governance and highly centralized command economies that took form in the early 20th century. This movement is also popular in Europe (Wiki 2).

I don't think the government would have too much say in the terms of how worker co-ops distribute their funds. It's where the "democratic" part comes from in socdem and demsoc. In whatever way the government has it's hand in things, as long as it's democratically done it's fine, I'd say.

 

[kkck]

Mhm!

Well... not necessarily. Copying this guy's sentiment from a quora thread:

Social Democracy refers to a political, social and economic ideology that supports capitalism and private enterprise, while at the same time using proactive interventions to promote social justice, and address market failures, within the framework of a democratic government. It recognizes the failures of capitalism in environmental damage, social injustice and social costs; addressing these with legislation, regulations and active enforcement. It is a movement which is very popular in Europe (Wiki 1).

Democratic socialism is a political, social and economic ideology which seeks public control over the means of production using democratic process as opposed to what it perceives as undemocratic process (such as communism). Democratic socialists oppose the authoritarian forms of governance and highly centralized command economies that took form in the early 20th century. This movement is also popular in Europe (Wiki 2).

I don't think the government would have too much say in the terms of how worker co-ops distribute their funds. It's where the "democratic" part comes from in socdem and demsoc. In whatever way the government has it's hand in things, as long as it's democratically done it's fine, I'd say.

I really don't see how democratic socialism is any different from previous actually socialist movements from back in the day, even based on those definitions. That merely reads as democratic socialism being against what it actually is. Pretty much every socialist/communist country out there set out to do what democratic socialists describe and they all simply took their failed ideology in its natural direction. Contrary to social democracies which are real things that exist and have provided more to its citizens than any other ideology around, by a fair bit at that.

That said, I don't oppose cooperatives being a thing, they are a perfectly ok business model that can exists among many other business models (barring monopoly shenanigans). You also do not need democratic socialism for cooperatives to be a thing.

 

[ninjabot]

The Democratic Socialism explanation says that it opposes "authoritarian forms of governance", and market socialism focuses on the market exclusively without actually attempting to alter the government without using democratic means. That's why you typically can't just tell a socialist "Name ONE country where socialism actually worked!" because, the current socdem and demsoc ideologies are both pushing for something more along the lines of Nordic models but "more", which don't match the older versions you keep pointing to as "failures".

Even the socdem ideology is essentially just capitalism altered and more socialized through democratic means.

 

[Darklord#10]

So I wanted to make this thread to see if there are other people who have Pro-Marxist and Pro-Communist and Pro-Socialist beliefs.

What are your thoughts on it and how do you feel about the rise of the "Left" in today's society?

If there are people who disagree I'd love to have a discussion on those topics as well.

As for me I just don't like cancel culture. I don't agree with most "left-wing" ideas. As for "right-wing" meh I don't really care about them. I like trump tho. I like his guts. I don't understand why leftist hate him. I don't really care about racism to, it doesn't really bother me. Gender equality? Don't really care about that either. Maybe equality of opportunity that makes sense but the rest is not really my concern. I don't understand why Hollywood is also pushing leftism

 

[xi0]

As for me I just don't like cancel culture. I don't agree with most "left-wing" ideas. As for "right-wing" meh I don't really care about them. I like trump tho. I like his guts. I don't understand why leftist hate him. I don't really care about racism to, it doesn't really bother me. Gender equality? Don't really care about that either. Maybe equality of opportunity that makes sense but the rest is not really my concern. I don't understand why Hollywood is also pushing leftism

Cancel culture exists for both sides of the political spectrum, just for different things

Leftists don't especially hate Trump, Liberals do. Leftists recognize that policy-wise he's no different than the average conservative, in fact for some things he might be better. In fact, they might even secretly enjoy that Trump exists since it gives these lunatics an excuse to be the mask-off Neo-Fascists that they truly are.

So your official stance on these other things is apathy?

 

[Ramen]

As for me I just don't like cancel culture. I don't agree with most "left-wing" ideas. As for "right-wing" meh I don't really care about them. I like trump tho. I like his guts. I don't understand why leftist hate him. I don't really care about racism to, it doesn't really bother me. Gender equality? Don't really care about that either. Maybe equality of opportunity that makes sense but the rest is not really my concern. I don't understand why Hollywood is also pushing leftism

Sounds like you don't care about a lot of things.

 

[Darklord#10]

Cancel culture exists for both sides of the political spectrum, just for different things

Leftists don't especially hate Trump, Liberals do. Leftists recognize that policy-wise he's no different than the average conservative, in fact for some things he might be better. In fact, they might even secretly enjoy that Trump exists since it gives these lunatics an excuse to be the mask-off Neo-Fascists that they truly are.

So your official stance on these other things is apathy?

Wait who's the neo-fascists? Yeah it's more closer to apathy but not really. If I was in USA or Canada I would have being called a right-wing nut job. I just tend to agree with right-wing ideas not all tho. I just don't really care about right-wing people either, they aren't really much different from leftist, infact some of them are even worse. As for racism it doesn't really bother me, I don't really care about that stuff too much cuz I don't understand what's the point of clinging onto racism. As for feminism sure equal rights to opportunity but the rest is just not my thing. Also for my finals in a particular subject I was forced to summarize an essay on gender equality and give a reaction to it. I don't understand why this happens it doesn't make sense to me. I like trump tho, I'm not a maga fan I just like the guy. I also don't understand why Hollywood trying to force us to be liberals, what's that going to do

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 8, 2023, Original Post Date: Jun 8, 2023 ---

Sounds like you don't care about a lot of things.

Oh yeah I hate male-feminists. They be doing the most ngl

 

[xi0]

Wait who's the neo-fascists? Yeah it's more closer to apathy but not really. If I was in USA or Canada I would have being called a right-wing nut job. I just tend to agree with right-wing ideas not all tho. I just don't really care about right-wing people either, they aren't really much different from leftist, infact some of them are even worse. As for racism it doesn't really bother me, I don't really care about that stuff too much cuz I don't understand what's the point of clinging onto racism. As for feminism sure equal rights to opportunity but the rest is just not my thing. Also for my finals in a particular subject I was forced to summarize an essay on gender equality and give a reaction to it. I don't understand why this happens it doesn't make sense to me. I like trump tho, I'm not a maga fan I just like the guy. I also don't understand why Hollywood trying to force us to be liberals, what's that going to do

A sizeable portion of the people that support him, as well as those that espouse ethnonationalist or christian nationalist beliefs.

I don't think you'd be referred to as a ring-wing nut job, but it seems like you desire that for some reason...? Because what you're saying doesn't really add up honestly.

How is Hollywood forcing anyone to be anything? Willing consumption is involved there.

 

[McNuss]

How is Hollywood forcing anyone to be anything? Willing consumption is involved there.

This is wrong. It may be true for the individual, but is wrong for society as a whole.

However, the ideas presented in Hollywood are certainly not "leftism", but typically capitalist. Capitalists push for capitalism, either willingly or subconsciously as you cannot escape your socialization, but even "left" oriented people reproduce capitalism more than they reproduce left-wing ideas.

The foundations for media analysis lies in sociology, a science not much liked in and corrupted by the Americans. Americans favor psychology, you see the couch in every second TV series, individualism, self-healing powers, "Jeder ist seines eigenen Glückes Schmied" ("Everyone is his own fortunes blacksmith")...

Americans have the worst media competency out of any cultures, and this is an intentional lynchpin of capitalism.

Every whole is composed of many pieces/cells/components call it whatever.

If you want to destroy capitalism you have to destroy the components of capitalism. As everything is created from "Desire", capitalism will end then as new components for a new society are desired.

The goal of the left is not justice. Justice is a subjective feeling, someone who is just is righteous* and nothing is more dangerous than a truly right person.

The uniting factor of the left is that capitalism is bad. It causes suffering for any individual and any society, and is destructive to any ecosystem and the whole planet.

It is not about proposing a bunch of progressive things - it's nice if you can shape society to your likings but it's not mandatory to end capitalism.
No first and foremost, you have to be critical, you have to be destructive, even with things you dearly like.

This does not mean a left person shall not have any joys. I love Coca Cola! Coca Cola ist so lecker! But I am aware that I am drugged by an ultracapitalist corporation. I am also aware that they chose the color red and invented Santa Claus to replace Karl Marx.

There is more depth to anything than you can ever imagine, but we are deluded to only see what we want to see.

All of the current debates that plague the left are controlled and organized by capitalist tech corporations, with no other purpose than to end the left forever, and anyone who is not willing to see this is blind. Society has been steering towards the right again for the past forty years, "American politics", "European politics", etc are just pieces of a whole, the sum of all parts reveals a horrifying truth.

Darklord#10 is part of that truth, he's clearly trolling here by presenting himself with a stance that the left is notoriously having trouble to deal with - ignorance.
But just look at the speech patterns of his posts and consider the fact that this thread had been dead for a considerable time. Someone is telling a story here.


*this works much better in German, were justice literally translates to Gerechtigkeit.

 

[xi0]

This is wrong. It may be true for the individual, but is wrong for society as a whole.

How exactly can you accurately parse an individual's ability to consume what they want from society's? One is derived from the other.

His criticism would have made more logical sense if you were complaining about the government but Hollywood's role is making movies that the most amount of people want to see. That's how money is made.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 9, 2023, Original Post Date: Jun 9, 2023 ---

And for sure, the irony of people like him complaining about "leftist" movies when it's all motivated by capitalism is not lost on me. Especially during Pride month lol

 

[Franckie]

As for me I just don't like cancel culture. I don't agree with most "left-wing" ideas. As for "right-wing" meh I don't really care about them. I like trump tho. I like his guts. I don't understand why leftist hate him. I don't really care about racism to, it doesn't really bother me. Gender equality? Don't really care about that either. Maybe equality of opportunity that makes sense but the rest is not really my concern. I don't understand why Hollywood is also pushing leftism

Trump is a malignant narcissist, meaning he's a narcissist, a sociopath, a sadist, and a psychopath. It's the main reason people in the USA find him morally revolting.

 

[shionoro]

How exactly can you accurately parse an individual's ability to consume what they want from society's? One is derived from the other.

His criticism would have made more logical sense if you were complaining about the government but Hollywood's role is making movies that the most amount of people want to see. That's how money is made.

But the way hollywood makes movies (and series) shapes what people want to see and their habits. And it also shapes ideology.
Hollywood certainly wants to make money, but the way they go forward about it strenghtens the capitalist system.

This is not about the content per se, but about the system the content is created in (see "the medium is the message").

Take the series binge culture for example. Streamers want to have you watch as many series as possiblef as quickly as possible. They shape series to be as consumable as possible and see series that do not achieve the highest ratings ever as basically a failure (some very successful series get cancelled due to that).

This shapes viewers tastes, because they are used to series grabbing them by the throat and not letting them go, and they are inclined to watch a lot rather than some stuff they genuinely love. This creates a kind of consumer who cannot really take a series (or even other media) as art that they reflect on, but as just another consumption product that keeps them pacified after hard day of whatever.

If you had another kind of system to create movies and series, for example one in which there is a lot of space for small ad mid budget projects tha are not steamlined after countless focus testing (but rather you just have to convince one lower or midlevel exec that it is a good project), you would have another kind of consumer with a different way to watch art. And that would leave more room for art to reflect and portray actual political, social or philosophical topics without being watered down into an easily consumable and forgettable project.

 

[zetsu banned]

Communism? Really? it's 2020, communism has predictable failed catastrophically on every front for decades. All it has ever produced is misery, poverty and death. It can't work, history proves time and time again that it can't deliver and it never will. Without even going as far as communism, mere socialist states have produced nothing but misery and death.

Just going to go ahead and quote myself from a couple weeks ago on a similar subject:

Yes, it was leftism that was at fault, not capitalist tumors metastasizing and gobbling up the world's wealth and resources, outsourcing its slave labor to other countries and the poorest in their own borders, and sending spooks to destabilize countries who democratically elected leftist leaders. It's intellectually stupid to support anything that isn't left policy in 2023, considering capitalist liberalism has accelerated the world melting and vastly exacerbated wealth inequality both globally and locally.

You may want to actually look into why leftist governments tend to "fail". Historical context is pretty illuminating sometimes.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Jun 15, 2023 ---

If you read adam smith's The wealth of nations his ideal capitalistic model is

Adam Smith was a naive moron at best who thought that humans were basically self-serving, but as long as everyone was ideally fulfilling their self-interests, the needs of society would magically be met without state intervention. The invisible hand as a concept has resulted in insane levels of human suffering and catastrophic ignorance permeating economic discourse. Trickle-down trickled down from this goon's ideology.

 

[kkck]

Just going to go ahead and quote myself from a couple weeks ago on a similar subject:



You may want to actually look into why leftist governments tend to "fail". Historical context is pretty illuminating sometimes.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Jun 15, 2023 ---

Adam Smith was a naive moron at best who thought that humans were basically self-serving, but as long as everyone was ideally fulfilling their self-interests, the needs of society would magically be met without state intervention. The invisible hand as a concept has resulted in insane levels of human suffering and catastrophic ignorance permeating economic discourse. Trickle-down trickled down from this goon's ideology.

Wow, didn't expect the necromancy. Also, my post was against socialist states in the sense that the government owns and controls means of production. I am not against government intervention altogether, my actual views on that front are pretty standard social democrat (within that to the right of center probably). I am definitely not in favor of trickle down economics.

 

[M3J]

Just going to go ahead and quote myself from a couple weeks ago on a similar subject:



You may want to actually look into why leftist governments tend to "fail". Historical context is pretty illuminating sometimes.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Jun 15, 2023 ---

Adam Smith was a naive moron at best who thought that humans were basically self-serving, but as long as everyone was ideally fulfilling their self-interests, the needs of society would magically be met without state intervention. The invisible hand as a concept has resulted in insane levels of human suffering and catastrophic ignorance permeating economic discourse. Trickle-down trickled down from this goon's ideology.

to be fair, majority of the people who criticize communism/anything left actually don't understand anything, they just either go with what the popular thinking is or think they know while actually describing capitalism.

 

[zetsu banned]

Wow, didn't expect the necromancy. Also, my post was against socialist states in the sense that the government owns and controls means of production. I am not against government intervention altogether, my actual views on that front are pretty standard social democrat (within that to the right of center probably). I am definitely not in favor of trickle down economics.

It's a Void Month, so please forgive the necromancy. Also reddit and twitter are sputtering out in flames so I took to my own homelands in MH for an outlet. I figured, I know you're pretty alright, but quoting Adam Smith's work gave me a sour taste. Dude is the father of shit economics in more ways than one.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 18, 2023, Original Post Date: Jun 18, 2023 ---

to be fair, majority of the people who criticize communism/anything left actually don't understand anything, they just either go with what the popular thinking is or think they know while actually describing capitalism.

Ain't that the fuckin' way.

*sigh*

 

[catagon87]

to be fair, majority of the people who criticize communism/anything left actually don't understand anything, they just either go with what the popular thinking is or think they know while actually describing capitalism.

I have to say I'm curious of what you consider as Communist.

Adam Smith was a naive moron at best who thought that humans were basically self-serving, but as long as everyone was ideally fulfilling their self-interests, the needs of society would magically be met without state intervention. The invisible hand as a concept has resulted in insane levels of human suffering and catastrophic ignorance permeating economic discourse. Trickle-down trickled down from this goon's ideology.

A naive moron? Really? I think context is important here. IIRC the book was published nearly 300 years ago. Values have changed quite a bit over time, and I think applying modern values to a 300 year old book is a bit unfair.

 

[M3J]

I don't know much about communism, but I do know a lot of anti-communist idiots actually describe capitalism when they think they're criticizing communism.

 

[xi0]

I don't know much about communism, but I do know a lot of anti-communist idiots actually describe capitalism when they think they're criticizing communism.

Man, what...

 

[catagon87]

I don't know much about communism, but I do know a lot of anti-communist idiots actually describe capitalism when they think they're criticizing communism.

I think it's on a spectrum. A lot of right-leaning people think any entitlement is a step towards communism, and in a sense I guess you could say that's true (a very small step). The big thing with Communism, IMO, is property ownership. In a true Communist society it doesn't exist. I think a lot of the entitlements are actually forms of socialism, and not necessarily a bad thing. Governments with no safety nets don't do too well.

On the other hand Governments trying to achieve "Communism" have a poor track record for success. Sometimes it's well intentioned (Mao creating famines, I think, was actually intended to help people but did the opposite) and sometimes it's more about disguising a brutal dictatorship. Every form of government is fair game for criticism, IMO, because everyone wants different things from their government. I don't often see capitalism and communism mixed up, though. I usually see fascism and communism mixed up. Do you have an example of what critics say that's mixing the things up?

Also, an interesting read if anyone has the bandwidth for it: The Dictator's Handbook.