Simplified, mother and daughter. Whether that includes a biological factor I cannot yet say but I am fully convinced that some part of Merlin - even if it is perhaps only her design for an 'artificial' daughter, that resembles both her and Escanor - exists within Gawain. Right now I see this as the most likely scenario.
The whole deal with Gawain being Arthur's niece is likely pure cover for the truth and it is likely that Arthur wants to keep Gawain on his side because -as we now know - he truly longs to have Merlin back at his side and Gawain may be the means to finding her. It currently is not Arthur's top priority but he by no means has given up on the thought or else he wouldn't have declared this as essentially a state secret in front of Guinevere.
Simplified, mother and daughter. Whether that includes a biological factor I cannot yet say but I am fully convinced that some part of Merlin - even if it is perhaps only her design for an 'artificial' daughter, that resembles both her and Escanor - exists within Gawain. Right now I see this as the most likely scenario.
The whole deal with Gawain being Arthur's niece is likely pure cover for the truth and it is likely that Arthur wants to keep Gawain on his side because -as we now know - he truly longs to have Merlin back at his side and Gawain may be the means to finding her. It currently is not Arthur's top priority but he by no means has given up on the thought or else he wouldn't have declared this as essentially a state secret in front of Guinevere.
16 years ago, Escanor died, and Merlin's true form was still that of a child's. If Merlin hasn't aged during past 16 years, Gawain can either be a modified clone, or an artificial child.
Simplified, mother and daughter. Whether that includes a biological factor I cannot yet say but I am fully convinced that some part of Merlin - even if it is perhaps only her design for an 'artificial' daughter, that resembles both her and Escanor - exists within Gawain. Right now I see this as the most likely scenario.
The whole deal with Gawain being Arthur's niece is likely pure cover for the truth and it is likely that Arthur wants to keep Gawain on his side because -as we now know - he truly longs to have Merlin back at his side and Gawain may be the means to finding her. It currently is not Arthur's top priority but he by no means has given up on the thought or else he wouldn't have declared this as essentially a state secret in front of Guinevere.
Sure, she is related to Merlin in some way. But do you believe in the "Gawain was born from Merlin's kiss to Escanor"'s theory? If not, how likely do you think it is?
Sure, she is related to Merlin in some way. But do you believe in the "Gawain was born from Merlin's kiss to Escanor"'s theory? If not, how likely do you think it is?
It is difficult for me to answer this because I am, myself, not sure about what I feel and believe. Yes, the romantic in me wants to believe that Merlin took in Escanor's essence with that kiss and used it to create Gawain. I love that theory because it is bittersweet and implies a degree of humanity in Merlin that she ever so rarely showed in NNT. She was always so aloof and taciturn when it came to her own desires and believes.
For the protocol, I do not believe in the natural birth scenario at all unless something about Merlin has massively changed in the past sixteen years. But she is either still in a child's body or age caught up with her in which case she would be a shrivelled old hag and either scenario is creepy and weird for a natural birth, even with magical conception being involved. It's a headache and I don't wanna pursue this line of thought.
In truth, the source material for Gawain's creation is as good an option as any. She could also have taken Escanor's essence from remains of Rhitta, which stored Escanor's Sunshine power. And since Escanor was born with Sunshine inside of him, it is also part of what made him, well, him. Nakaba can come up with any sort of scenario for this because Merlin knows and knew always more than she ever revealed and her being the best sorceress in Britania and perhaps the entire world means, she can always pull shit out of her ass, so to speak.
Hasn't really changed much for me, Gawain still on first place by a massive margin, the others are more or less the same but it's always somewhat situational. Overall, Percival has a slight lead on the remaining two.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Been a bit but I started a reread of the manga a few days ago. The pilot chapter has a very interesting page in which Percival's grandpa lists him several "wonders" of Britania. So far we have seen several of them and can actually attribute some of them to the individual knights of apocalypse:
The lady of the lake obviously references Lancelot. The "cave with the many holes that lead to hell" relates to Percival himself but also somewhat to Tristan, I guess? The knigth rowing his magical boat gets answered right away in that same first chapter but it also raises the question - did Arthur create said boat or did he find this artefact somehwere? Could this be a goddess artefact in truth?
So, we are left with two more places - the forest with seemingly no escape and the twisted tower of the cruel magician. The forest could hint at the Fairy Forest. The tower could already have been a reference to Vivian, relating to Chion in turn... or it references Merlin, which could again point towards Gawain later down the road of the story.
I don't remember what I thought back then but now I definitely don't think they are that tied to the KoA. The one about the princess luring heroes was pretty neat, because along with the Lancelot One-Shot, it means that the LotL was looking for a hero and Lancelot, as a KoA is a hero of fate.
I think the cave has an hole leading to the Purgatory, because it's the closest thing to Hell. I am still not convinced it was about the Demon Realm.
The tower is either the house of Viviann, a new mage but not Merlin IMO because if it's that popular then surely she wouldn't hide there?
As for the knight with a row I think Ironside defeated/killed the original owner and he'll reappear latter as Knight of Chaos if he hasn't been killed. Because I don't believe Varghese would talk about his son like this here.
How strong do you think Tristan and Gawain are now with the 2 years timeskip? Same for their looks. TBH I am not particularly curious to see how Tristan's looks, he'll probably be similar to the "Adult Meliodas", it was said that he loves his long hair too. But with Gawain there are more possibilities, maybe she grew taller too. Very curious to see if her equipment because I am not fond of the number of sword users in the group.
Not particularly curious to see Lancelot's looks as well. We know he loves King's clothes so they'll probably be similar, or maybe just the same. I can see him with a different hairstyle and that's it.
Even shorter hair? I don't see it. I hope she'll be a bit taller at least and won't have an outfit that's such an obvious reference to Merlin and Escanor.
It's been two years, so she should be stronger in every way.
In pure stats he is above Tristan, physically and magically, he can read minds to enhance his CQC abilities, he can absorb Magic. You don't need a "defense breaker" when your attacks are strong enough. The only thing Tristan had over Lancelot before the timeskip was healing.
See? You miss the whole point my friend! Your argument can't escape the fact that Lancelot is "above" for the sole reason that he had an early opportunity to train and develop himself in that 3 years long journey. You aren't willing to detach that "privilege" from your argument because then you'll have to prove (if you can ofc) that Fairy-Human Hybridity is superior to and has more potential than Demon-Human-Goddess Hybridity which you, I, and every genuine Nanatsu fan knows it's just ...
Lancelot could kill him 10 times before that. If you can't react fast enough Full Counter is useless. Gawain has many spells like Teleportation and Absolute Cancel which are great tools in battle, in terms of raw power, her heat against Pellegarde was too strong for Tristan(Base to intervene) and she wasn't at her strongest.
It's quite funny how you're trying to belittle the speed Tristan can reach. The 10C-arc-Meliodas in his base mode was able to do THIS, a feat that could butcher Merlin in pieces before she could even think of casting a spell to run away. A Nephilim of Royal (Divine) lineage like Tristan should theoretically reach even more insane speed feats than those of his Demon Dad.
It's simply because they have different levels of potential! Meliodas's Dark-power was firmly established by the EOS to be way superior than Sunshine. In Tristan's case, we aren't talking just about a Royal PoD, but also a Royal Ark power and an unprecedented combination of Contradictory Powers (Nephilim). Putting personal preferences aside and comparing the 4KoA using their main powers, everyone should arrive at the conclusion that they aren't at the same level, nor will they ever be. Some would assume that Lance will continue to be the strongest of them; others will say Percival because he's the MC. For me, I think that comparing the nature of their powers is the most accurate way to determine their potential:
Let's just compare for instance Tristan and Percival's powers in this regard. Percival has Hope (Death / Life) and Tristan has Nova (Annihilation / (its opposite).
If Percival's Death effect all it did to Chion's hand was to mummify it by draining its Life force, imagine what could happen if it was hit by Tristan's Annihilation instead? It would be totally erased from EXSITENCE. See the difference I'm talking about now?
+ You now take Gawain's statement as a fact, but you ignore her statement that she is able to defeat Tristan in Demon mode if she is fully charged? Because if you treat Gawain's statements as facts, you must also admit that Full charge Gawain is stronger than Tristan Demon mode
Nah, I'm absolutely fine with her stating her ability to stop a rampaging demon mode Tristan if she went ALL out (full reserved). Stoping a rampaging character has never been an impressive feat in the maga/anime corpus. Given that one's true potential cannot be unlocked when he's rampage and subconscious. Just compare Naruto's Kurama mode prior to and post controlling the Beast.
See? You miss the whole point my friend! Your argument can't escape the fact that Lancelot is "above" for the sole reason that he had an early opportunity to train and develop himself in that 3 years long journey. You aren't willing to detach that "privilege" from your argument because then you'll have to prove (if you can ofc) that Fairy-Human Hybridity is superior to and has more potential than Demon-Human-Goddess Hybridity which you, I, and every genuine Nanatsu fan knows it's just ...
Why you spoke like Tristan did not receive a fair chance while he was the one who chose to stop training his demonic powers for fear of them. It was not as if anyone prevented him from doing so, but rather it was his mentality that prevented him from doing so when he had many golden opportunities to do so.
Mentality is also part of the potential that allows you to grow better or less
I could also argue with the same argument as you, that Gawain and Percival did not receive the same opportunities as Tristan, and if they had received them, they would have surpassed him.
In fact, as i remember, Nakaba sensei says in the fanbook that Tristan is the one who trained the most among the four, and yet Gawain and Percival, who did not train as well as him and did not have the opportunity like him became close to him (and perhaps Percival surpassed him before he died) and he is still far behind Lancelot, so it does not seem that he is truly superior in potential or talent to the rest, as you claim
And basing the argument of potential on whose clan seems stronger makes no sense
There are other potential other than genetic ones, such as ordained potential (such as Arthur/Chaos and Escanor/Sunshine etc....), and power that you work to acquire even if in not relat to genes (such as Ban and his supernatural physical strength etc....)
It's quite funny how you're trying to belittle the speed Tristan can reach. The 10C-arc-Meliodas in his base mode was able to do THIS, a feat that could butcher Merlin in pieces before she could even think of casting a spell to run away. A Nephilim of Royal (Divine) lineage like Tristan should theoretically reach even more insane speed feats than those of his Demon Dad.
And without talking about the speed of his reactions, which were not able to recognize the attacks of not-serious Arthur's base, which would have cut off his head, had Meliodas not intervened to save him.
What? Since when was Meliodas' Darkness way superior than Sunshine?
This is just you headcanon and it is wrong compared to the features and the narration
Mael was with Sunshine in the first Holy War at Meliodas level
While Escanor with Sunshine reached heights of power in 0ne and 0ne ultimate mode that exceed any power Meliodas achieved with his darkness, as Meliodas only surpasses him in true magic.
If Percival's Death effect all it did to Chion's hand was to mummify it by draining its Life force, imagine what could happen if it was hit by Tristan's Annihilation instead? It would be totally erased from EXSITENCE. See the difference I'm talking about now?
erased from EXSITENCE???? Have you started making things up from your imagination?
Tristan used Annihilation on the Chaos Beast that was made of Schwarts and his knights. However, the beast did not die immediately and was even able to continue the fight. Rather, Schwarts and his men even came back fine and were completely healed, so what you are saying is completely wrong.
Because if it "erased from EXSITENCE" had been there as she claims, Schwarts and his companions would not have returned safely and with full strength, but rather they would have lost their limbs forever.
Because if you were to compare names, yes, "annihilation" is a beautiful name, but if you were to compare feats and what abilities do
Then, Percival's "death" ability is superior and better, and at least it does not seem that he can be cured easily as Schwarts and his companions did with Tristan's attacks.
and it is precisely because I say that this is his magic that increases the theory vs gawain
You forget that Gawain has sorcery powers that can stop him(absolute cancel, super slow, teleport, etc) that's why I said that only Merlin or Gawain could defeat Bertilap, It would be a more strategic fight, and he can still be hit physically by who is more faster so gawain(teleport) can still fight him just fine
Even if he had that OP ability (There's still a good chance he haven't it but other ability), i don't think he couldn't be defeated except by Gawain or Merlin
As i mentioned before, he can be completely stopped and defeated if his opponent have quick enough reflexes to avoid his attacks, or if his opponent are immune in some way to magical attacks, or unaffected by physical harm.
Gawain's problem is not the speed of movement, but the speed of reactions
Teleportation is great, but it didn't help her against Nanashi, who knocked her down before she realized he was beside her at all.
If they were in a fight, he would have killed her before she even knew it
Blows that you cannot feel are blows that cannot be avoided, no matter how fast you are, so the speed of reactions is just as important as the speed of departure.
@Tristan give it up buddy. Tristan is never ever winning or is getting stronger than Lancelot ever.
From beginning to end Lancelot was, is and will be stronger than Tristan by quite an astronomical margin.
Sorry to break it to you but Tristan won't also be the second strongest of the Group, as it'll most likely be Percival who's again would be dimensions above Tristan
The only one he would be stronger than is Gawain and that too a very little difference. Like if a fight between the two happens Tristan will win but at extreme difficulty
Annihilation, Nephellim and all are just cool fancy names at the end of the day which won't be anything groundbreaking or cool
See? You miss the whole point my friend! Your argument can't escape the fact that Lancelot is "above" for the sole reason that he had an early opportunity to train and develop himself in that 3 years long journey. You aren't willing to detach that "privilege" from your argument because then you'll have to prove (if you can ofc) that Fairy-Human Hybridity is superior to and has more potential than Demon-Human-Goddess Hybridity which you, I, and every genuine Nanatsu fan knows it's just ...
I haven't missed anything. You are saying that Lancelot had a head start, but that's wrong. Something special definitely happened to Lancelot, but no one has been more privileged than Tristan. He sleeps with Meliodas and Elizabeth, he was even training under Gowther too. He has great potential and is a prince. We know he is a hard worker as well. You clinging onto that Nephilim superiority doesn't change these facts. We don't know the details about Gawain, but Percival is the one who suffers from lack of proper training the most. Pellegarde said that Gawain relies on her innate powers, her fighting skills are very poor in "Warrior Mode".
Before being a Human-Fairy hybrid, Lancelot is someone with insane potential. Just like Tristan and the two others. I don't see how being a Nephilim would make someone innately superior anyway and from what we have seen I'd say Lancelot's innate abilities are more interesting. He can read minds, transform into other races and copy their innate abilities. So, theoretically, he could even learn to turn into a Nephilim. We know that as of now he has a Giant form. Healing is the greatest advantage than Tristan has compared to him and his Goddess powers aren't as versatile as the other top Goddesses that we know. Demon powers aren't particularly interesting either.
It's quite funny how you're trying to belittle the speed Tristan can reach. The 10C-arc-Meliodas in his base mode was able to do THIS, a feat that could butcher Merlin in pieces before she could even think of casting a spell to run away. A Nephilim of Royal (Divine) lineage like Tristan should theoretically reach even more insane speed feats than those of his Demon Dad.
Arthur dealt with him with ease while he had trouble hitting Lancelot.
Meanwhile Lancelot read and reacted to Nanashi's incoming attacks and has shown to be a beast at close and long range. His Heart Reading is a massive buff in CQC.
It's simply because they have different levels of potential! Meliodas's Dark-power was firmly established by the EOS to be way superior than Sunshine. In Tristan's case, we aren't talking just about a Royal PoD, but also a Royal Ark power and an unprecedented combination of Contradictory Powers (Nephilim). Putting personal preferences aside and comparing the 4KoA using their main powers, everyone should arrive at the conclusion that they aren't at the same level, nor will they ever be. Some would assume that Lance will continue to be the strongest of them; others will say Percival because he's the MC. For me, I think that comparing the nature of their powers is the most accurate way to determine their potential:
Let's just compare for instance Tristan and Percival's powers in this regard. Percival has Hope (Death / Life) and Tristan has Nova (Annihilation / (its opposite).
If Percival's Death effect all it did to Chion's hand was to mummify it by draining its Life force, imagine what could happen if it was hit by Tristan's Annihilation instead? It would be totally erased from EXSITENCE. See the difference I'm talking about now?
These Royal Ark and Royal PoDs are headcanon of yours. There was never such a thing in the story. Tristan is confirmed to have inherited Meliodas's PoD and that's it. PoD isn't such a great ability, it's the amount which matters. Arthur fought Tristan before Lancelot. There is huge potential in the fusion of PoD and Ark but PoD and Ark are energies with different properties, that's it. Lancelot also has the ability to absorb Magic, which would make Annihilation just a power source for him. Absolute Cancel would negate it completely.
I find this whole discussion regarding the rankings of the 4KotA a bit bewildering. Don't get me wrong, differences in power were and always will be present but the 4KotA ain't the SDS. It is far easier balancing out four people rather than seven. And thematically each of the "Riders" originally governs over one aspect of the end times. Lance will stay ahead of the others. But maybe not till the end. Even if he does, what does it matter if others can do what he can't and vice-versa? Raw power isn't everything.
Other factors are always in play. Some of you make it sound as if these tier lists really matter when they all play for the same team?
They will all be much closer to each other in their respective fortes than you think.
That special thing is that Lancelot had an opportunity to get away from his Dad's shadow, identify his weakness and push himself to unlock his potential as a KoA earlier than Tristan.
Wrong! Nakaba never mentioned that he can copy the innate abilities of other races (Hell, he doesn't even have access to his own race "Disaster" )
Nakaba said that he just gets the advantages of each form he transforms to. For instance, if he transforms to a Giant, his physical strength would be great like that of Giants, if he transforms to a fairy, he'll get the ability to fly using wings. Correct your intel buddy!
Arthur dealt with him with ease while he had trouble hitting Lancelot.
Meanwhile Lancelot read and reacted to Nanashi's incoming attacks and has shown to be a beast at close and long range. His Heart Reading is a massive buff in CQC.
4. Again you're comparing Lancelot who already unlocked his magic and potential with Tristan who wasn't even aware at the time of his Nephilim power (Nova / Annihilation).
Nah, Lancelot's magic absorption is a Defensive power. Nakaba never mentioned that Lancelot can absorb "ALL / EVERY" magic, whereas we have a plain statement regarding Tristan's ability to Annihilate ALL DEFENSE.
Checkmate
erased from EXSITENCE???? Have you started making things up from your imagination?
Tristan used Annihilation on the Chaos Beast that was made of Schwarts and his knights. However, the beast did not die immediately and was even able to continue the fight. Rather, Schwarts and his men even came back fine and were completely healed, so what you are saying is completely wrong.
Because if it "erased from EXSITENCE" had been there as she claims, Schwarts and his companions would not have returned safely and with full strength, but rather they would have lost their limbs forever.
Dude, the Chaos monsters born from other characters are somehow new entities. The same happened when Lancelot in the Movie pierced through the Chaos monster that was born from a bunch of Fairies and Giants creating a huge hole on its chest. The monster disappeared and nothing happened to any of those Gianrs/Fairies.
Tristan's Annihilation is roughly based on the same principle upon which Gojo's Hollow Purple was established: the Collision of matter/particle and its anti-matter / anti-particle. Nakaba and Gege both stressed that it is the COLLISON of the opposites (Blue and Red in the Gojo's case and Darkness & Light in Tristan's) that generates the Annihilation effect. Annihilation is simply defined as "Reducing something to Nothing".
I find this whole discussion regarding the rankings of the 4KotA a bit bewildering. Don't get me wrong, differences in power were and always will be present but the 4KotA ain't the SDS. It is far easier balancing out four people rather than seven. And thematically each of the "Riders" originally governs over one aspect of the end times. Lance will stay ahead of the others. But maybe not till the end. Even if he does, what does it matter if others can do what he can't and vice-versa? Raw power isn't everything.
Other factors are always in play. Some of you make it sound as if these tier lists really matter when they all play for the same team?
They will all be much closer to each other in their respective fortes than you think.
This type of discussion is mostly fueled by the people who have strong feelings regarding some particular character and who wish to champion them. It's a fairly common phenomenon in battle shonen fandoms. I agree with you on the idea that all of the Horsemen are eventually going to end up being more or less equally powerful, given partly by what they represent and partly because this time around there aren't members like Gowther or Merlin who rely so much on hax that they would need to be handicapped in other areas. The KotA are more like Meliodas, Ban, King and Escanor, which is an interesting lineup given that each of them could reasonably claim the title of the strongest Sin at some point during the events of NnT. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the title of the strongest KotA also ended up changing hands multiple times over the course of the story, as sacrilegious as that might sound to some.
Depression and doing nothing is surrender and defeat, something you choose
It is a betrayal of himself and those he is fighting for, and contradicts his character and reaction against Mortlach
So with all due respect, your point of view makes no sense at all
Depression is a mental illness that affects a person's thinking. Lancelot in that position wouldn't be choosing to see things as hopeless any more than a person suffering from paranoia would be choosing to be suspicious of everyone. Also, why do you think his depression would contradict what he did to Mortlach? The five stages of grief are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. If anything, Lancelot's extremely angry reaction there was a hint that he was going to take the loss harder than anyone else. I'm confused why you're acting like Lancelot being depressed makes no sense when we already know that this happened since Ban outright mentioned it. The answer to the question "was Lancelot depressed?" is a resounding yes. I'm asking "is he still depressed after 2 years?" and that's a question we don't have an answer to so far.
You spoke as if we had been seeing the power of the 4koa since the beginning of the story, whilewe not seen most of them their power until after Chapter 50, and there were even some who did not even know how much their full power was before the time skip.
And Lancelot's strength did not appear until Chapter 79/80, and then his superiority was strengthened in his fight against Nanashi recently, as it appeared that he is still hiding a lot of his strength.
I was speaking about the length of the story there, which also relates to my next paragraph. If you read my explanation of Escanor's journey you might notice that I wasn't going by chapter numbers but rather by major fights, as that's where you see these power differences in action. It doesn't make sense to just look at how long a character has been in the story since that doesn't translate to how much action they see, think Merlin for example.
And since you mentioned the sins, you must know, like anyone else who watched the 7ds, that the sins themselves did not become at similar levels until later in Chapter 260, so citing how the 7ds develop is against your argument, not with it.
That's a strange thing for you to say given that the Sins actually started out at a similar level. This was directly confirmed with the introduction of the dreadful numerical power levels that placed the Sins from the first act about 1k apart. The power gap among the Sins only formed about a third of the way through the story with Meliodas getting around a tenfold boost followed by Escanor surpassing even him. You're acting like the story didn't begin until Escanor was introduced at around chapter 150. The situation with the KotA is essentially an inversion of that of the Sins in the sense that the KotA started out with large gaps between them, so in their case I'd expect any power shifts in the 2nd act to manifest as more of an equalization.
So you assume that Nakaba will copy the dynamics of Escanor and the Sins on Lancelot and the KOAs and base your entire argument on it under the guise of "character development"?
You know that 4koa, although it is a sequel to 7ds, does not have to copy all the dynamics of 7ds.
Lancelot and Escanor themselves are two completely different characters, whether in appearance, strength, or role in the plot (very much differents that there is no point even trying to compare them), so assume that Lancelot will receive Escanor's treatment only because they were the strongest in the team at some point is illogical. and this is if ypu even think that Escanor was the strongest and not Meliodas, because Meliodas was also no less strength and without negative complications, however, his growth was not suppressed in order to cause sins to reach him, rather, he was able to develop his demonic powers further and obtained his true magic.
And since you seem so convinced that the 4koa will be copies of the 7ds in the dynamics of the development and growth of powers, let us assume that i followed what you said (Although i think what you're saying doesn't make sense), which must then mean that you must also know that the scenario you are calling for is like saying that all sins should have been as powerful of Escanor and Meliodas Demon Mode/assault mode in after chapters 130, which will kill the tension more than the Escanor scenario you even said.
Having 4 OP characters even before half the story is even more tension-killing than having 1 OP
I outright stated that Lancelot is not going to follow in Escanor's exact footsteps. If Lancelot being a copy of Escanor (or the other KotA being copies of the Sins for that matter) is what you took from my post then I recommend a re-read. I brought up Escanor's journey to show how an overpowered character can be developed to avoid locking them into a role where they end going through the same one-sided fights for the entire story. The fact that you're bringing Meliodas into this further highlights that you didn't quite catch the point I was making. Meliodas only became the strongest towards the very end of the series, it was not his role for the majority of the story. And just in case you still don't get it, this is about what he actually contributed on an arc by arc basis, not about whether he was later established to have had sealed away powers or secret innate magic the entire time.
You say that having four OP characters is more tension-killing than having just one, which is not something I've argued against. Furthermore, that fact that you acknowledge that OP characters are tension-killing means that you should understand the value of addressing the problem. The way Nakaba tackled this issue in NnT is that he kept the OP Escanor from receiving any further power-ups long enough for the likes of Mel, Ban and King to reach his level and for the enemies to simultaneously powercreep to the point that Escanor was no longer capable of just stomping them. A similar development is what I expect to happen in the sequel as well.
Again, i don't understand your point in comparing two completely different characters and assuming that they will receive the same treatment
But as much as you try to beautify your words, the point of your words is still that you assume that Nakaba will marginalize and not develop Lancelot at the expense of polishing the image of the rest.
You know that Percival's death can advance Lancelot's character growth without necessarily slowing/killing his power growth and throwing him behind the screen.
I'm not comparing the characters themselves, I'm comparing their roles since both of them acted as the powerhouses of their respective teams that were in charge of facing the strongest enemies and doing what nobody else could. The reason I'm doing this is because, as I mentioned in my previous post, there are problems that you run into with these types. In a nutshell, picture Nakaba thinking to himself: "Having this overpowered character stomp his enemies and overshadow his allies gets boring if it keeps happening again and again, how do I address this?" That's what lead to Escanor's character undergoing the journey he did and why I don't expect Lancelot to remain this unbeatable badass either. The question is not if Lancelot will ever lose his OP status, but how and when it will happen. Like I said in the section you quote here, Lancelot being held back by depression is not the only way to accomplish this, but the timing and how it could be used to hit multiple birds with one stone make it an intriguing possibility.
on what basis? Lancelot dealt with Perceval's death in this way because it was part of his personality, as he made it clear in advance more than once that he would kill anyone who tried to harm him or his friends even when he was in a good mood, and that is why he cut off Mortlach's neck, and he would have done the same thing if Mortlach had harmed any other companion of him.
He even tells the demons in the Wallnack arc that the reason he didn't hill them is because he felt they were being controlled, and if he felt they were intending to harm him or his friends/companions, he would have killed them.
Unlike Anne and Donnie, who is considered much less experienced than him and has never killed anyone else in their lives
It's similar to how Chion, Isolde, and Tristan react to Jade's death
You can't say that Chion was less accepting of reality and dealt with it worse than Tristan and Isolde just because he avenged Jade's death.
On the basis of Ban directly explaining how hard his son took Percy's death? We have so far not heard of any of the other good guys having been affected by that tragedy to such a degree. You seem to be talking about Lancelot's anger here, when I was referring to his depression.
Do you think Ban would have gone out drinking and thinking about having fun with the other Sins if his only son was suffering from depression?
And please stop saying things that don't exist, because Ban wasn't obsessed with the matter and didn't even try to find Ironside or do anything.
He just went out to get drunk and met Ironside suddenly, and then he remembered his son's grief two years ago and decided to beat Ironside up because he's a shitty father.
Ban was obviously not just having fun given that he mentioned the Camelot forces "laying waste to Britannia" while he was busy defending his own kingdom. That combined with Gowther having left the demon village point towards the Sins realizing that they can no longer just sit back and watch their own backyards. I think Ban may have chosen his first stop on the basis of wanting a drink but that alone was clearly not his motive for leaving Benwick.
As for Ban bringing up his son, he did that in response to Ironside calling the Sins monsters. There was no direct connection between Ironside's actions and Lancelot's depression, in fact Ironside wasn't even the reason why Percival died. Ban bringing that stuff up was largely irrelevant, especially if Lancelot had already gotten over his issues a long time ago. The real purpose of that interaction was for Nakaba to set up something with Lancelot. Does it have to be Lancelot falling into a deep depression? No, but that seems like the most likely option given how Lancelot's demeanor was described.
Actually, no, with all due respect, your idea is weak and does not make any sense, especially since it is based on the idea of “that happen to Escanor, so any stronge character should have the same thing happen to him, even if he is completely different from Escanor.”
And you don't even seem focused on the development of the rest as much as you are focused on your desire to suppress Lancelot's growth for some unknown reason
It's also possible that we haven't even reached half of the story, and it seems likely that we have other time skips, so the 4koa reaching the same level is not essential at this point.
I've already addressed this earlier in this post and you obviously haven't had a chance to read it yet so it's a bit unfair for me to criticize you further, but my point was never about Lancelot repeating everything Escanor did. In the first place, Lancelot being affected by the loss of his friend isn't the same thing as Escanor struggling with his failing health and unrequited love. My point was about how Nakaba set up a similar situation of one character being leaps and bounds stronger than the rest and how that situation developed to ensure that the character in question wouldn't just end up doing the same thing over and over again. Given how Lancelot has been positioned in that powerhouse role in the sequel, I expect Nakaba to again address the issue in some way. I don't know how he will choose to do it, but this teasing about Lancelot's mental state is the strongest candidate as of now. The reason I'm focusing on Lancelot's development here is because he's the only KotA whose activities during the timeskip have been touched upon so far. There's simply nothing to go on when it comes to the others. As for the timing of a "power equalization", Nakaba likes shaking things up often so I doubt he would maintain any particular dynamic through multiple acts. This doesn't mean that Tristan and Gawain are going to be as strong as Lancelot the next time we see them, but that they're in the process of catching up and making progress on it.
This type of discussion is mostly fueled by the people who have strong feelings regarding some particular character and who wish to champion them. It's a fairly common phenomenon in battle shonen fandoms. I agree with you on the idea that all of the Horsemen are eventually going to end up being more or less equally powerful, given partly by what they represent and partly because this time around there aren't members like Gowther or Merlin who rely so much on hax that they would need to be handicapped in other areas. The KotA are more like Meliodas, Ban, King and Escanor, which is an interesting lineup given that each of them could reasonably claim the title of the strongest Sin at some point during the events of NnT. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the title of the strongest KotA also ended up changing hands multiple times over the course of the story, as sacrilegious as that might sound to some.
That is not the situation
You are literally suggesting unfair treatment of a character and suggesting that their growth be stunted and thrown behind the screen for the sake of highlighting others.
I don't really need to be a big fan of anyone to say that your idea it's a bad idea
Depression is a mental illness that affects a person's thinking. Lancelot in that position wouldn't be choosing to see things as hopeless any more than a person suffering from paranoia would be choosing to be suspicious of everyone. Also, why do you think his depression would contradict what he did to Mortlach? The five stages of grief are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. If anything, Lancelot's extremely angry reaction there was a hint that he was going to take the loss harder than anyone else. I'm confused why you're acting like Lancelot being depressed makes no sense when we already know that this happened since Ban outright mentioned it. The answer to the question "was Lancelot depressed?" is a resounding yes. I'm asking "is he still depressed after 2 years?" and that's a question we don't have an answer to so far.
I am not one of those who make preconceived judgments
It is you who assumes that Lancelot's grief over the death of his companion means that he will become depressed and shut himself up for two years without doing anything.
It's not the first time someone has been saddened by someone's death, but now you're trying to turn it into depression and psychological destruction.
I was speaking about the length of the story there, which also relates to my next paragraph. If you read my explanation of Escanor's journey you might notice that I wasn't going by chapter numbers but rather by major fights, as that's where you see these power differences in action. It doesn't make sense to just look at how long a character has been in the story since that doesn't translate to how much action they see, think Merlin for example.
You still don't answer my question or topic
Only 50/60 chapters have passed since all the 4koa appeared and we learned about some of their powers, so I don't see why you're so attached to the idea of making them identical now, even at the expense of diminishing and weakening some of them.
The story is still continuing as all 4KOA can evolve and we may have another time skip, so make them all at similar levels now it is not necessary.
That's a strange thing for you to say given that the Sins actually started out at a similar level. This was directly confirmed with the introduction of the dreadful numerical power levels that placed the Sins from the first act about 1k apart. The power gap among the Sins only formed about a third of the way through the story with Meliodas getting around a tenfold boost followed by Escanor surpassing even him. You're acting like the story didn't begin until Escanor was introduced at around chapter 150. The situation with the KotA is essentially an inversion of that of the Sins in the sense that the KotA started out with large gaps between them, so in their case I'd expect any power shifts in the 2nd act to manifest as more of an equalization.
When were they at the same level since the beginning of the story?
Meliodas at the Hunting Festival, as soon as he used his demon powers, he threw Ban for miles after that
Diane was clearly weaker and less powerful than all the Sins
Escanor and Meliodas are much stronger than the rest befor chapter 250+ (We see that the rest of the Sins are watching Escanor and Meliodas fight without moving and saying that they cannot do anything)
King tells Ban before purgatory that there is no point in helping him because Pan was much weaker then
And etc....
There is no equality between all the sins at all until after purgatory near the end of the story, and even there they are still sins stronger than others.
However, unlike you, I do not think it is necessary to copy the growth rate of sins on the 4koa
It is the story of 4koa, and although it was a sequel og 7ds, it is not intended to be caoy it.
So stop with the "sins were like this (even if they weren't) argument, so the 4koa should be too." argument.
Because it didn't start there, it started in Chapter 1
Just because all the Sins weren't together before Escanor showed up doesn't mean it wasn't a story at that time.
I outright stated that Lancelot is not going to follow in Escanor's exact footsteps. If Lancelot being a copy of Escanor (or the other KotA being copies of the Sins for that matter) is what you took from my post then I recommend a re-read. I brought up Escanor's journey to show how an overpowered character can be developed to avoid locking them into a role where they end going through the same one-sided fights for the entire story. The fact that you're bringing Meliodas into this further highlights that you didn't quite catch the point I was making. Meliodas only became the strongest towards the very end of the series, it was not his role for the majority of the story. And just in case you still don't get it, this is about what he actually contributed on an arc by arc basis, not about whether he was later established to have had sealed away powers or secret innate magic the entire time.
You say that Lancelot should be throwed behind the screen and his growth stopped for the sake of others after what happened with Escanor, but you are basing your assumptions on your own personal fallacies.
Lancelot is a young teenager who is still growing and has great potential for development and if Nakaba-sensei had wanted to stop his growth, he would not have made him that strong in the first place.
On the other hand, Escanor growth was not stopped for the sake of others Sins, but because he was an adult man who had already reached his Prime and the peak of his strength, and there was no room left for him to develop .
As you can see, they are two completely different things and situations
You say that having four OP characters is more tension-killing than having just one, which is not something I've argued against. Furthermore, that fact that you acknowledge that OP characters are tension-killing means that you should understand the value of addressing the problem. The way Nakaba tackled this issue in NnT is that he kept the OP Escanor from receiving any further power-ups long enough for the likes of Mel, Ban and King to reach his level and for the enemies to simultaneously powercreep to the point that Escanor was no longer capable of just stomping them. A similar development is what I expect to happen in the sequel as well.
I'm not admitting anything, I'm just going along with what you say
You said that it shouldn stop Lancelot grow now to not kills tension (even when Lancelot's power does not kill tension, but rather it balances the forces between the two sides), but you believe that the rest of the KOA should reach his level now, which contradicts your statement.
Also, you yourself say that power creep is what affected Escanor's power, but in 4koa there is no power creep between the enemies, and Arthur/choas has been there from the beginning.
I'm not comparing the characters themselves, I'm comparing their roles since both of them acted as the powerhouses of their respective teams that were in charge of facing the strongest enemies and doing what nobody else could. The reason I'm doing this is because, as I mentioned in my previous post, there are problems that you run into with these types. In a nutshell, picture Nakaba thinking to himself: "Having this overpowered character stomp his enemies and overshadow his allies gets boring if it keeps happening again and again, how do I address this?" That's what lead to Escanor's character undergoing the journey he did and why I don't expect Lancelot to remain this unbeatable badass either. The question is not if Lancelot will ever lose his OP status, but how and when it will happen. Like I said in the section you quote here, Lancelot being held back by depression is not the only way to accomplish this, but the timing and how it could be used to hit multiple birds with one stone make it an intriguing possibility.
I think your problem is that you think everyone thinks the same thing as you
If Nakaba-sensei thought that Lancelot's power was a hindrance to the story, he wouldn't have made him that powerful in the first place or given him limiters at the first palce like he did with Escanor, and even Meliodas at the beginning of the NNT.
But the fact that Nakaba-sensei made Lancelot so powerful and without problems is proof that he has plans for him and his immense power.
On the basis of Ban directly explaining how hard his son took Percy's death? We have so far not heard of any of the other good guys having been affected by that tragedy to such a degree. You seem to be talking about Lancelot's anger here, when I was referring to his depression.
All Ban remembers is his sad son two years ago, shortly after Percival's death, so I don't understand how you concluded that he was depressed and that this depression persists.
Do you think that anyone who grieved over the death of his friend would fall into depression and lock himself in his room for two years?
Ban was obviously not just having fun given that he mentioned the Camelot forces "laying waste to Britannia" while he was busy defending his own kingdom. That combined with Gowther having left the demon village point towards the Sins realizing that they can no longer just sit back and watch their own backyards. I think Ban may have chosen his first stop on the basis of wanting a drink but that alone was clearly not his motive for leaving Benwick.
Ban said his main reason to come was to get drunk, and after defeating Ironside he even thought about partying with the other Sins.
Do you think this is the reaction of a father whose son suffers from depression?
As for Ban bringing up his son, he did that in response to Ironside calling the Sins monsters. There was no direct connection between Ironside's actions and Lancelot's depression, in fact Ironside wasn't even the reason why Percival died. Ban bringing that stuff up was largely irrelevant, especially if Lancelot had already gotten over his issues a long time ago. The real purpose of that interaction was for Nakaba to set up something with Lancelot. Does it have to be Lancelot falling into a deep depression? No, but that seems like the most likely option given how Lancelot's demeanor was described.
The situation was introduced to show that Lancelot returned to his home and that he was very saddened by the death of his best friend
So I don't see how you linked it to depression and psychological problems
I've already addressed this earlier in this post and you obviously haven't had a chance to read it yet so it's a bit unfair for me to criticize you further, but my point was never about Lancelot repeating everything Escanor did. In the first place, Lancelot being affected by the loss of his friend isn't the same thing as Escanor struggling with his failing health and unrequited love. My point was about how Nakaba set up a similar situation of one character being leaps and bounds stronger than the rest and how that situation developed to ensure that the character in question wouldn't just end up doing the same thing over and over again. Given how Lancelot has been positioned in that powerhouse role in the sequel, I expect Nakaba to again address the issue in some way. I don't know how he will choose to do it, but this teasing about Lancelot's mental state is the strongest candidate as of now. The reason I'm focusing on Lancelot's development here is because he's the only KotA whose activities during the timeskip have been touched upon so far. There's simply nothing to go on when it comes to the others. As for the timing of a "power equalization", Nakaba likes shaking things up often so I doubt he would maintain any particular dynamic through multiple acts. This doesn't mean that Tristan and Gawain are going to be as strong as Lancelot the next time we see them, but that they're in the process of catching up and making progress on it.
I still don't see how the character's development is consistent with your previous statement that his growth should be stopped and kept off the screen, because this is not development, but rather the opposite.
character development is character development, so why you try to build it on the basis of stop growth strength?
And your problem again is that you think that your opinion is the most logical and appropriate for the story
The same thing happened before when you were adamant that Ironside and Pell could defeat Ban just because you thought it was better for the story than from your personal perspective.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Tristan,
Your reliance on Gawain's statement as an established fact is strang
You should know that statement without feats is not a good argument
Galand also said that he had a defense that could not be penetrated by any attacks, even Escanor, and then he was defeated by Percy and Gawain.
It is not the first character in the series say something that is later discovered to be wrong or not in the sense in which it was stated
So, as long as there is no feats, what you present is not a convincing argument in any way
Dude, the Chaos monsters born from other characters are somehow new entities. The same happened when Lancelot in the Movie pierced through the Chaos monster that was born from a bunch of Fairies and Giants creating a huge hole on its chest. The monster disappeared and nothing happened to any of those Gianrs/Fairies.
Tristan's Annihilation is roughly based on the same principle upon which Gojo's Hollow Purple was established: the Collision of matter/particle and its anti-matter / anti-particle. Nakaba and Gege both stressed that it is the COLLISON of the opposites (Blue and Red in the Gojo's case and Darkness & Light in Tristan's) that generates the Annihilation effect. Annihilation is simply defined as "Reducing something to Nothing".
The monster is still made of Schwarts and his followers
That is, his physical build depends on Schwarts and his followers
If “Annihilation” is “Reducing Something to Nothing” matter, as you say, then it isn't supposed to Reducing the body of Schwarts and his companions to Nothing? given that they were the substance that made up the monster
But on the contrary, we see their bodies are fine, and even the ground that received some attacks is fine
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If not, how likely do you think it is?
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