Discussion The Four Knights of The Apocalypse Thread

[Vortigern]

That is not the situation
You are literally suggesting unfair treatment of a character and suggesting that their growth be stunted and thrown behind the screen for the sake of highlighting others.
I don't really need to be a big fan of anyone to say that your idea it's a bad idea

"Unfair treatment" of characters and sidelining some for a time to give others time in the spotlight is completely normal. Percival and Lancelot enjoyed the perks of that in the first act of the sequel, hence why Tristan and Gawain are currently lagging behind so much in terms of development. You're a powerscaling guy so you might not pay much attention to this side of things, but Tristan and Gawain don't even have strong personal reasons for opposing Arthur so far, which contributes to making them the least interesting members of the KotA at the moment. Percival has his grandpa's death and his goal of defeating Ironside, while Lancelot has Jericho and Guinevere to worry about. Gawain has some potential in the form of her mysterious origins that haven't really gone anywhere yet, but Tristan's motive as at best something generic like 'protect Liones and Meliodas' that is shared by every other Liones holy knight.

Part of the reason for this situation is because Percival has been getting character focus from the very beginning and Lancelot ever since he joined Percy as Sin in chapter 5, while the other two debuted in chapter 50-something. Percy and Lance have a 50 chapter or about a 1 year lead. It is only fair for Tristan and Gawain to get their share now, even if it means the other two will need to take a backseat for a while. Your words here remind me of a kid complaining that he has to let his sister ride the bicycle for the next 30 minutes after he just rode it for the last 30 minutes. Calling that unfair treatment just means you have a very strong bias towards one side.

I am not one of those who make preconceived judgments
It is you who assumes that Lancelot's grief over the death of his companion means that he will become depressed and shut himself up for two years without doing anything.
It's not the first time someone has been saddened by someone's death, but now you're trying to turn it into depression and psychological destruction.

I'm not assuming anything. We know that he was depressed for a time, I'm simply bringing up the possibility of that he still hasn't gotten over it. A teenager going through emotional turmoil is nothing unusual and neither is fictional characters having low points in their journey.

You still don't answer my question or topic
Only 50/60 chapters have passed since all the 4koa appeared and we learned about some of their powers, so I don't see why you're so attached to the idea of making them identical now, even at the expense of diminishing and weakening some of them.
The story is still continuing as all 4KOA can evolve and we may have another time skip, so make them all at similar levels now it is not necessary.

What question do you feel I haven't answered? I explained why I went by the big fight scenes rather than the number of chapters in that section you're quoting. I also never said that it's necessary for the KotA to end up on similar levels right now, only that I expect Tristan and Gawain to make good progress towards it because of reasons such as Percival already having been moved aside and Lancelot potentially facing a similar situation due to his depression, Nakaba's treatment of the previous team powerhouse to prevent him from getting stale, the opportunity for organic power growth during the timeskip and the similar power shift that happened in the 2nd act of NnT.

When were they at the same level since the beginning of the story?
Meliodas at the Hunting Festival, as soon as he used his demon powers, he threw Ban for miles after that
Diane was clearly weaker and less powerful than all the Sins
Escanor and Meliodas are much stronger than the rest befor chapter 250+ (We see that the rest of the Sins are watching Escanor and Meliodas fight without moving and saying that they cannot do anything)
King tells Ban before purgatory that there is no point in helping him because Pan was much weaker then
And etc....
There is no equality between all the sins at all until after purgatory near the end of the story, and even there they are still sins stronger than others.

However, unlike you, I do not think it is necessary to copy the growth rate of sins on the 4koa
It is the story of 4koa, and although it was a sequel og 7ds, it is not intended to be caoy it.
So stop with the "sins were like this (even if they weren't) argument, so the 4koa should be too." argument.

We know that the Sins were around the same level during the first act(which, in case you're confused refers to everything up to Hendrickson's defeat) because Nakaba introduced numerical power levels to directly show that. Meliodas was at 3370, Diane at 3250, Ban at 3220, King at 4190 and Gowther at 3100. Nakaba even gave us a scale of sorts by revealing that normal knights had their PL at roughly 100, above average holy knights like the Pleiades at around 1000-2000, the Albion at 5500 and Galand at 27k. The Sins being within about 1k of one another is consistent with how they performed in the first act. Are you really going to argue that the gap between them was as small as that by the end of the series? Meliodas punching Ban around is meaningless given that Ban's whole shtick was getting killed all the time and regenerating due to his immortality. Meanwhile Diane's Mother Catastrophe was the single most destructive attack we saw from any of the Sins for a long time. I don't understand why you're talking about copying the growth rate of the Sins. If the KotA were copying what happened with the Sins, the power gaps would be getting bigger rather than smaller in the 2nd act, just like what happened with Mel's tenfold boost and Escanor's introduction.

Because it didn't start there, it started in Chapter 1
Just because all the Sins weren't together before Escanor showed up doesn't mean it wasn't a story at that time.

Exactly, so let's not pretend like the first 100 chapters didn't happen. The Sins were at the same level for that part of the story and we only started seeing the kind of gaps that exist between Lancelot and the other KotA in the second act.

You say that Lancelot should be throwed behind the screen and his growth stopped for the sake of others after what happened with Escanor, but you are basing your assumptions on your own personal fallacies.

Lancelot is a young teenager who is still growing and has great potential for development and if Nakaba-sensei had wanted to stop his growth, he would not have made him that strong in the first place.

On the other hand, Escanor growth was not stopped for the sake of others Sins, but because he was an adult man who had already reached his Prime and the peak of his strength, and there was no room left for him to develop .

As you can see, they are two completely different things and situations

I tell you what my position is and you reject that as "embellishing my words" so that you can instead put words in my mouth. You do realize that's a dishonest way of arguing, right? To reiterate, I think that the current situation gives Nakaba an opportunity to bench Lancelot for a while so that the other KotA can start catching up to him in terms of strength. I've explained how Nakaba faced a similar situation with another overpowered character in NnT and how he resolved it, and also how all of this would help give Tristan and Gawain the focus they're sorely lacking right now. Lancelot being a teenager is irrelevant because we're not talking about real people here. King was a teenage fairy for centuries without much growth while Escanor only discovered how to push Sunshine further when he was in his 40s. You say that if Nakaba had wanted to stop Lancelot's growth he wouldn't have made Lance so strong to begin with, but surely you understand that strong characters don't have as much room for growth? The Percival that fought Mortlach was easily dozens if not hundreds of times stronger than the Percival in chapter 1, because his starting point was so low. Lancelot started way higher up and as a result hasn't noticeably improved at all, his only buff being a new weapon rather than in increase in his own strength. This is also why Escanor's strength stayed the same for almost the entire series, as he basically started out at the top so there was nowhere for him to go.

I'm not admitting anything, I'm just going along with what you say
You said that it shouldn stop Lancelot grow now to not kills tension (even when Lancelot's power does not kill tension, but rather it balances the forces between the two sides), but you believe that the rest of the KOA should reach his level now, which contradicts your statement.
Also, you yourself say that power creep is what affected Escanor's power, but in 4koa there is no power creep between the enemies, and Arthur/choas has been there from the beginning.

I'm confused how you can say that there's a contradiction in my statement while quoting the part where I make my position very clear. To quote myself:

The way Nakaba tackled this issue in NnT is that he kept the OP Escanor from receiving any further power-ups long enough for the likes of Mel, Ban and King to reach his level and for the enemies to simultaneously powercreep to the point that Escanor was no longer capable of just stomping them. A similar development is what I expect to happen in the sequel as well.

How can you possibly take that to mean that I want all of the KotA to be overpowered and stomping their enemies? Both the good guys and the bad guys are obviously going to experience powercreep over the course of the story, what I want is for the two sides to have tough fights without one person casually carrying the entire team, hence why some kind of an equalization makes sense. Claiming that Lancelot's power is balancing the two sides is backwards, it's actually Lancelot's imbalanced power that forces Nakaba to come up with ways to keep him busy. He would have soloed the Chaos TC if Jericho didn't catch his attention, he would have saved Jade if the demons weren't distracting him(which is why Jade didn't die in the prophecy) and he would have soloed Mortlach's team and prevented Percival from dying if Nanashi hadn't been placed there to stall him. Nakaba constantly has to write around Lancelot to prevent him from solving every problem by himself. That is not a good situation.

I think your problem is that you think everyone thinks the same thing as you

If Nakaba-sensei thought that Lancelot's power was a hindrance to the story, he wouldn't have made him that powerful in the first place or given him limiters at the first palce like he did with Escanor, and even Meliodas at the beginning of the NNT.

But the fact that Nakaba-sensei made Lancelot so powerful and without problems is proof that he has plans for him and his immense power.

I don't see how me explaining my point of view suggests that I think everyone thinks the same way I do. If that were the case I wouldn't need to elaborate or argue with you at all since we'd already be in agreement. As for Lancelot's power being a hindrance, that is very obviously the case given how Nakaba keeps having to come up with ways to prevent Lancelot from soloing every fight like I mentioned above. The same was true in Escanor's case, but Nakaba still opted to go for it despite the problems because there are advantages to it as well, such as Escanor/Lancelot acting as an example of what we can expect to see from the other characters eventually. There was nothing wrong with the other Sins eventually matching or even surpassing Escanor's power, and likewise there is nothing wrong the other KotA doing the same to Lancelot. The reason why you're so opposed to this is because Lancelot is your favorite so you want him to be the best and whatever. The others catching up to Lancelot doesn't mean that there aren't any plans for him or his powers so I don't know what you're going on about. Escanor's character arc was progressing smoothly even as the others were catching up and he even managed to surpass his earlier limits with his ultimate form after everyone thought he had already reached his peak.

All Ban remembers is his sad son two years ago, shortly after Percival's death, so I don't understand how you concluded that he was depressed and that this depression persists.
Do you think that anyone who grieved over the death of his friend would fall into depression and lock himself in his room for two years?

Lancelot falling into a long-term depression is a possibility I've brought up, not something I've concluded is the case. I've explained this before so I don't know why you'd say this. The reason I entertain the possibility is because it strikes me as odd for Ban to bring up the topic at all if it's something that has already been resolved almost two years ago. As for why Lancelot would be so strongly affected, that's for Nakaba to decide since I didn't expect Lance to be as sad as he was, in fact I thought he would end up being more angry and edgy. You could probably cook something up based on Lancelot's interpersonal struggles and fondness of Percival coupled with him blaming himself for everything as the de facto leader.

Ban said his main reason to come was to get drunk, and after defeating Ironside he even thought about partying with the other Sins.
Do you think this is the reaction of a father whose son suffers from depression?

No, he said his reason to be in Bernia of all places was because of their ale. Ironside asks him why he isn't busy protecting his kingdom and that's when Ban mentions that doing so resulted in Britannia being laid to waste. He didn't abandon his duty to protect Benwick because he wanted to get drunk like some reckless alcoholic, he left because him staying there was leaving Britannia vulnerable. Do you think he'd be carrying his Sacred Treasure with him if he were only picking up some groceries to bring back home or going to a party? Bernia was just the first stop on the way to presumably Liones to team up with the other Sins, the goal of the meeting obviously being to protect Britannia rather than to just have fun.

As for whether this demeanor would be appropriate, do you remember what kind of person Ban is? His life was one of the hardest among the Sins, losing his sister at a young age, then being left behind by his foster father and finally losing Elaine while becoming immortal so that he could never reunite with her. Despite all of this hardship Ban kept up a cheery and playful exterior, goofing off with Meliodas, pulling pranks and getting drunk. It was only during the moments when his happy mask slipped that we learned how melancholic he really was. Would Ban go for a drink when times are tough? Absolutely, that's how he lived for most of his life.

The situation was introduced to show that Lancelot returned to his home and that he was very saddened by the death of his best friend
So I don't see how you linked it to depression and psychological problems

Lancelot only being sad for a brief while is entirely possible, as is him being sad for a longer period. We won't know which is the case until Nakaba reveals more information about it, hence why I'm discussing these possibilities in the first place. It's somewhat ironic that you would make such confident statements when you accused me of assuming things earlier.

I still don't see how the character's development is consistent with your previous statement that his growth should be stopped and kept off the screen, because this is not development, but rather the opposite.

character development is character development, so why you try to build it on the basis of stop growth strength?

You're looking at character development from the point of view of a real person, where development is strictly positive, i.e. getting ahead in life and self-improving and so on. In fiction, character development is about a character changing in response to what happens to them, and the development does not have to be positive, think for example many villain origin stories where some bad events cause a normal person to go crazy. Facing a crisis and resolving it is a core component of character development, and Percival's current situation is a great example of that. He learned the truth of his origins but rather than just instantly being okay with it as a show of how strong he is, he instead broke down completely and gave up, deciding that he won't be able to protect his friends and that he should just disappear. What happened to Percival is not the opposite of development, it's set-up for his development by first tearing him down. He is eventually going to see the light and come back as a much stronger and more mature person for it, but that growth can only happen after he's hit a massive low point and reflected on it. The reason why I'm been talking about pausing Lancelot's growth is because of the issues that arise from him being overpowered and how Lancelot having his own crisis like Percival could be used to address that to break him out of his current repetitive role for the benefit of both him as well as other characters.

And your problem again is that you think that your opinion is the most logical and appropriate for the story

The same thing happened before when you were adamant that Ironside and Pell could defeat Ban just because you thought it was better for the story than from your personal perspective.

Honestly, I think you're taking this too seriously. I wrote down my thoughts when the topic of the KotA's strength came up, you didn't like what I had to say, I explained my position further and now we're here. I've been very clear about how my idea is just one possibility and even brought up some alternatives like the other KotA getting their special training sessions to basically speed up their growth. I also followed this same approach back when we were discussing the potential outcomes of the encounter between the Perils and Ban, examining both the effects of Ban winning and him losing. I'm cognizant that there's no definitive way to predict what's going to happen in a story like this, which is why I try to be careful with my wording to avoid making any strong claims. In a nutshell, I like to analyze the series and to entertain different scenarios. I aim to make my arguments sound but that doesn't mean I consider them the most logical or appropriate, as this is ultimately not my story to tell. Maybe you get that impression because you see the reasoning behind what I'm saying even when you disagree with the idea itself? Anyway, if you don't care to discuss this further then I'm fine with wrapping things up here as I'm largely just clarifying things I've said earlier.

 

[Redpercy]

"Unfair treatment" of characters and sidelining some for a time to give others time in the spotlight is completely normal. Percival and Lancelot enjoyed the perks of that in the first act of the sequel, hence why Tristan and Gawain are currently lagging behind so much in terms of development. You're a powerscaling guy so you might not pay much attention to this side of things, but Tristan and Gawain don't even have strong personal reasons for opposing Arthur so far, which contributes to making them the least interesting members of the KotA at the moment. Percival has his grandpa's death and his goal of defeating Ironside, while Lancelot has Jericho and Guinevere to worry about. Gawain has some potential in the form of her mysterious origins that haven't really gone anywhere yet, but Tristan's motive as at best something generic like 'protect Liones and Meliodas' that is shared by every other Liones holy knight.

Part of the reason for this situation is because Percival has been getting character focus from the very beginning and Lancelot ever since he joined Percy as Sin in chapter 5, while the other two debuted in chapter 50-something. Percy and Lance have a 50 chapter or about a 1 year lead. It is only fair for Tristan and Gawain to get their share now, even if it means the other two will need to take a backseat for a while. Your words here remind me of a kid complaining that he has to let his sister ride the bicycle for the next 30 minutes after he just rode it for the last 30 minutes. Calling that unfair treatment just means you have a very strong bias towards one side.

I'm not assuming anything. We know that he was depressed for a time, I'm simply bringing up the possibility of that he still hasn't gotten over it. A teenager going through emotional turmoil is nothing unusual and neither is fictional characters having low points in their journey.

What question do you feel I haven't answered? I explained why I went by the big fight scenes rather than the number of chapters in that section you're quoting. I also never said that it's necessary for the KotA to end up on similar levels right now, only that I expect Tristan and Gawain to make good progress towards it because of reasons such as Percival already having been moved aside and Lancelot potentially facing a similar situation due to his depression, Nakaba's treatment of the previous team powerhouse to prevent him from getting stale, the opportunity for organic power growth during the timeskip and the similar power shift that happened in the 2nd act of NnT.

We know that the Sins were around the same level during the first act(which, in case you're confused refers to everything up to Hendrickson's defeat) because Nakaba introduced numerical power levels to directly show that. Meliodas was at 3370, Diane at 3250, Ban at 3220, King at 4190 and Gowther at 3100. Nakaba even gave us a scale of sorts by revealing that normal knights had their PL at roughly 100, above average holy knights like the Pleiades at around 1000-2000, the Albion at 5500 and Galand at 27k. The Sins being within about 1k of one another is consistent with how they performed in the first act. Are you really going to argue that the gap between them was as small as that by the end of the series? Meliodas punching Ban around is meaningless given that Ban's whole shtick was getting killed all the time and regenerating due to his immortality. Meanwhile Diane's Mother Catastrophe was the single most destructive attack we saw from any of the Sins for a long time. I don't understand why you're talking about copying the growth rate of the Sins. If the KotA were copying what happened with the Sins, the power gaps would be getting bigger rather than smaller in the 2nd act, just like what happened with Mel's tenfold boost and Escanor's introduction.

Exactly, so let's not pretend like the first 100 chapters didn't happen. The Sins were at the same level for that part of the story and we only started seeing the kind of gaps that exist between Lancelot and the other KotA in the second act.

I tell you what my position is and you reject that as "embellishing my words" so that you can instead put words in my mouth. You do realize that's a dishonest way of arguing, right? To reiterate, I think that the current situation gives Nakaba an opportunity to bench Lancelot for a while so that the other KotA can start catching up to him in terms of strength. I've explained how Nakaba faced a similar situation with another overpowered character in NnT and how he resolved it, and also how all of this would help give Tristan and Gawain the focus they're sorely lacking right now. Lancelot being a teenager is irrelevant because we're not talking about real people here. King was a teenage fairy for centuries without much growth while Escanor only discovered how to push Sunshine further when he was in his 40s. You say that if Nakaba had wanted to stop Lancelot's growth he wouldn't have made Lance so strong to begin with, but surely you understand that strong characters don't have as much room for growth? The Percival that fought Mortlach was easily dozens if not hundreds of times stronger than the Percival in chapter 1, because his starting point was so low. Lancelot started way higher up and as a result hasn't noticeably improved at all, his only buff being a new weapon rather than in increase in his own strength. This is also why Escanor's strength stayed the same for almost the entire series, as he basically started out at the top so there was nowhere for him to go.

I'm confused how you can say that there's a contradiction in my statement while quoting the part where I make my position very clear. To quote myself:
How can you possibly take that to mean that I want all of the KotA to be overpowered and stomping their enemies? Both the good guys and the bad guys are obviously going to experience powercreep over the course of the story, what I want is for the two sides to have tough fights without one person casually carrying the entire team, hence why some kind of an equalization makes sense. Claiming that Lancelot's power is balancing the two sides is backwards, it's actually Lancelot's imbalanced power that forces Nakaba to come up with ways to keep him busy. He would have soloed the Chaos TC if Jericho didn't catch his attention, he would have saved Jade if the demons weren't distracting him(which is why Jade didn't die in the prophecy) and he would have soloed Mortlach's team and prevented Percival from dying if Nanashi hadn't been placed there to stall him. Nakaba constantly has to write around Lancelot to prevent him from solving every problem by himself. That is not a good situation.

I don't see how me explaining my point of view suggests that I think everyone thinks the same way I do. If that were the case I wouldn't need to elaborate or argue with you at all since we'd already be in agreement. As for Lancelot's power being a hindrance, that is very obviously the case given how Nakaba keeps having to come up with ways to prevent Lancelot from soloing every fight like I mentioned above. The same was true in Escanor's case, but Nakaba still opted to go for it despite the problems because there are advantages to it as well, such as Escanor/Lancelot acting as an example of what we can expect to see from the other characters eventually. There was nothing wrong with the other Sins eventually matching or even surpassing Escanor's power, and likewise there is nothing wrong the other KotA doing the same to Lancelot. The reason why you're so opposed to this is because Lancelot is your favorite so you want him to be the best and whatever. The others catching up to Lancelot doesn't mean that there aren't any plans for him or his powers so I don't know what you're going on about. Escanor's character arc was progressing smoothly even as the others were catching up and he even managed to surpass his earlier limits with his ultimate form after everyone thought he had already reached his peak.

Lancelot falling into a long-term depression is a possibility I've brought up, not something I've concluded is the case. I've explained this before so I don't know why you'd say this. The reason I entertain the possibility is because it strikes me as odd for Ban to bring up the topic at all if it's something that has already been resolved almost two years ago. As for why Lancelot would be so strongly affected, that's for Nakaba to decide since I didn't expect Lance to be as sad as he was, in fact I thought he would end up being more angry and edgy. You could probably cook something up based on Lancelot's interpersonal struggles and fondness of Percival coupled with him blaming himself for everything as the de facto leader.

No, he said his reason to be in Bernia of all places was because of their ale. Ironside asks him why he isn't busy protecting his kingdom and that's when Ban mentions that doing so resulted in Britannia being laid to waste. He didn't abandon his duty to protect Benwick because he wanted to get drunk like some reckless alcoholic, he left because him staying there was leaving Britannia vulnerable. Do you think he'd be carrying his Sacred Treasure with him if he were only picking up some groceries to bring back home or going to a party? Bernia was just the first stop on the way to presumably Liones to team up with the other Sins, the goal of the meeting obviously being to protect Britannia rather than to just have fun.

As for whether this demeanor would be appropriate, do you remember what kind of person Ban is? His life was one of the hardest among the Sins, losing his sister at a young age, then being left behind by his foster father and finally losing Elaine while becoming immortal so that he could never reunite with her. Despite all of this hardship Ban kept up a cheery and playful exterior, goofing off with Meliodas, pulling pranks and getting drunk. It was only during the moments when his happy mask slipped that we learned how melancholic he really was. Would Ban go for a drink when times are tough? Absolutely, that's how he lived for most of his life.

Lancelot only being sad for a brief while is entirely possible, as is him being sad for a longer period. We won't know which is the case until Nakaba reveals more information about it, hence why I'm discussing these possibilities in the first place. It's somewhat ironic that you would make such confident statements when you accused me of assuming things earlier.

You're looking at character development from the point of view of a real person, where development is strictly positive, i.e. getting ahead in life and self-improving and so on. In fiction, character development is about a character changing in response to what happens to them, and the development does not have to be positive, think for example many villain origin stories where some bad events cause a normal person to go crazy. Facing a crisis and resolving it is a core component of character development, and Percival's current situation is a great example of that. He learned the truth of his origins but rather than just instantly being okay with it as a show of how strong he is, he instead broke down completely and gave up, deciding that he won't be able to protect his friends and that he should just disappear. What happened to Percival is not the opposite of development, it's set-up for his development by first tearing him down. He is eventually going to see the light and come back as a much stronger and more mature person for it, but that growth can only happen after he's hit a massive low point and reflected on it. The reason why I'm been talking about pausing Lancelot's growth is because of the issues that arise from him being overpowered and how Lancelot having his own crisis like Percival could be used to address that to break him out of his current repetitive role for the benefit of both him as well as other characters.

Honestly, I think you're taking this too seriously. I wrote down my thoughts when the topic of the KotA's strength came up, you didn't like what I had to say, I explained my position further and now we're here. I've been very clear about how my idea is just one possibility and even brought up some alternatives like the other KotA getting their special training sessions to basically speed up their growth. I also followed this same approach back when we were discussing the potential outcomes of the encounter between the Perils and Ban, examining both the effects of Ban winning and him losing. I'm cognizant that there's no definitive way to predict what's going to happen in a story like this, which is why I try to be careful with my wording to avoid making any strong claims. In a nutshell, I like to analyze the series and to entertain different scenarios. I aim to make my arguments sound but that doesn't mean I consider them the most logical or appropriate, as this is ultimately not my story to tell. Maybe you get that impression because you see the reasoning behind what I'm saying even when you disagree with the idea itself? Anyway, if you don't care to discuss this further then I'm fine with wrapping things up here as I'm largely just clarifying things I've said earlier.

I respect the effort you put into writing your answer to me, but i don't think that i will read or respond to what you wrote

It is the third or fourth day of a discussion based on your personal perceptions that cannot be confirmed by any logic reason.

If you think you want to see more Gawain and Tristan while Lancelot and Percival are thrown off-screen, then that's your freedom, but don't try to convince me that your opinion makes sense just because it's your opinion.

You have a point of view that i don't think i will understand or agree with because i simply don't see it as logical and it does not fit my perception, while you seem to cling desperately to your ideas.

And you have a strange idea about character development that only associate it with strength and depression, which makes me think you don't even have a similar concept of character development like the concept i know



So let's end our fruitless discussion here

 

[Demonspeed]

I have time to spare this morning so...

I find this whole discussion regarding the rankings of the 4KotA a bit bewildering. Don't get me wrong, differences in power were and always will be present but the 4KotA ain't the SDS. It is far easier balancing out four people rather than seven. And thematically each of the "Riders" originally governs over one aspect of the end times. Lance will stay ahead of the others. But maybe not till the end. Even if he does, what does it matter if others can do what he can't and vice-versa? Raw power isn't everything.

Other factors are always in play. Some of you make it sound as if these tier lists really matter when they all play for the same team?

They will all be much closer to each other in their respective fortes than you think.

Typical battle shonen discussion. It's fun as long as it doesn't become toxic because of insults and bias.

That special thing is that Lancelot had an opportunity to get away from his Dad's shadow, identify his weakness and push himself to unlock his potential as a KoA earlier than Tristan.


Oh really?


Sleeping with parents doesn't make one get stronger .. lmfao


Why you didn't mention the type of training he had with Gowther? He only taught him Horse riding


Wrong! Nakaba never mentioned that he can copy the innate abilities of other races (Hell, he doesn't even have access to his own race "Disaster" )
Nakaba said that he just gets the advantages of each form he transforms to. For instance, if he transforms to a Giant, his physical strength would be great like that of Giants, if he transforms to a fairy, he'll get the ability to fly using wings. Correct your intel buddy!


Just wait and see


4. Again you're comparing Lancelot who already unlocked his magic and potential with Tristan who wasn't even aware at the time of his Nephilim power (Nova / Annihilation).

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 27, 2023, Original Post Date: Dec 27, 2023 ---

Nah, Lancelot's magic absorption is a Defensive power. Nakaba never mentioned that Lancelot can absorb "ALL / EVERY" magic, whereas we have a plain statement regarding Tristan's ability to Annihilate ALL DEFENSE.
Checkmate

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 27, 2023 ---

—Said Nakaba Morningstar

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 27, 2023 ---

Dude, the Chaos monsters born from other characters are somehow new entities. The same happened when Lancelot in the Movie pierced through the Chaos monster that was born from a bunch of Fairies and Giants creating a huge hole on its chest. The monster disappeared and nothing happened to any of those Gianrs/Fairies.
Tristan's Annihilation is roughly based on the same principle upon which Gojo's Hollow Purple was established: the Collision of matter/particle and its anti-matter / anti-particle. Nakaba and Gege both stressed that it is the COLLISON of the opposites (Blue and Red in the Gojo's case and Darkness & Light in Tristan's) that generates the Annihilation effect. Annihilation is simply defined as "Reducing something to Nothing".

What I meant by sleeping with them was clear. Tristan has the right teachers and environment to train. And we know he is a hard worker. Lancelot doesn't have the same issues as Tristan. His name isn't tied to his parents as much. Percival's training was just Gouren with his grandpa, Gawain is only skilled at Magic.

Disaster is the Fairy Kings's Magic. Fairies have Transformation, some level of Plant Manipulation and Heart Reading as magics specific to their race. Aren't we saying the same thing regarding his Transformation abilities? When he turns into a Fairy, he can fly, when he turns into a Giant, he has Giant's strength. Lancelot already has superhuman strength in base but is unable to fly, it becomes even hard for him to carry Tristan and Escanor(horse) in his Fairy form. For the others, Transformations are just imitations, for him, it's real. So Lancelot being able to use Creation as a Giant, PoD as a Demon and Ark as a Goddess if he learns the patterns isn't out of question.

I can "Wait and see". I am comparing their feats and the knowledge we have now. And it's a fact that Tristan's Goddess powers aren't as great as his Demon ones. Despite his years of hard work and neglect of his Demon powers, this side of him is better and he can't heal diseases and curses.

We don't even know the details of Lancelot's Magic, but he clearly absorbed Nanashi's strike, it powered him up and he defeated him with a kick. As things are now, I don't see how he wouldn't be able to absorb Annihilation. But he doesn't even need that. Lancelot outclasses Tristan in pretty much every category.

For some reason to you, Tristan has boundless potential far superior to his three peers and lacked opportunities, Lancelot is at his peak and you already know the limits of his powers and the two others can never close the gap that existed when they met. You accept only what you like. Gojo didn't do anything new.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 29, 2023 ---

Also, the only KoA who I feel got an "unfair" treatment relative to their introduction is Gawain. She got sidelined at Wallnack(was mostly there for pervert jokes and her fight was off screened) and only really got to shine after her rescue in the Demon Realm arc. Tristan got a decent share of development in every arc since his introduction.

"Unfair treatment" of characters and sidelining some for a time to give others time in the spotlight is completely normal. Percival and Lancelot enjoyed the perks of that in the first act of the sequel, hence why Tristan and Gawain are currently lagging behind so much in terms of development. You're a powerscaling guy so you might not pay much attention to this side of things, but Tristan and Gawain don't even have strong personal reasons for opposing Arthur so far, which contributes to making them the least interesting members of the KotA at the moment. Percival has his grandpa's death and his goal of defeating Ironside, while Lancelot has Jericho and Guinevere to worry about. Gawain has some potential in the form of her mysterious origins that haven't really gone anywhere yet, but Tristan's motive as at best something generic like 'protect Liones and Meliodas' that is shared by every other Liones holy knight.

Part of the reason for this situation is because Percival has been getting character focus from the very beginning and Lancelot ever since he joined Percy as Sin in chapter 5, while the other two debuted in chapter 50-something. Percy and Lance have a 50 chapter or about a 1 year lead. It is only fair for Tristan and Gawain to get their share now, even if it means the other two will need to take a backseat for a while. Your words here remind me of a kid complaining that he has to let his sister ride the bicycle for the next 30 minutes after he just rode it for the last 30 minutes. Calling that unfair treatment just means you have a very strong bias towards one side.

I don't think they need some super personal reason to defeat Arthur.The main reason is that he wants to destroy the other places for Camelot and exterminate non-Humans. Percival didn't know anything and Ironside's visit was the trigger. Lancelot didn't even know about Jericho's fate until recently. For Tristan, he directly attacked his kingdom. Gawain left Camelot because she felt unsatisfied and wants answers. Since she is from Arthur's family we are bound to learn something even more personal sooner or later.

 

[Samael Morningstar]

That special thing is that Lancelot had an opportunity to get away from his Dad's shadow, identify his weakness and push himself to unlock his potential as a KoA earlier than Tristan.


Oh really?


Sleeping with parents doesn't make one get stronger .. lmfao


Why you didn't mention the type of training he had with Gowther? He only taught him Horse riding


Wrong! Nakaba never mentioned that he can copy the innate abilities of other races (Hell, he doesn't even have access to his own race "Disaster" )
Nakaba said that he just gets the advantages of each form he transforms to. For instance, if he transforms to a Giant, his physical strength would be great like that of Giants, if he transforms to a fairy, he'll get the ability to fly using wings. Correct your intel buddy!


Just wait and see


4. Again you're comparing Lancelot who already unlocked his magic and potential with Tristan who wasn't even aware at the time of his Nephilim power (Nova / Annihilation).

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 27, 2023, Original Post Date: Dec 27, 2023 ---

Nah, Lancelot's magic absorption is a Defensive power. Nakaba never mentioned that Lancelot can absorb "ALL / EVERY" magic, whereas we have a plain statement regarding Tristan's ability to Annihilate ALL DEFENSE.
Checkmate

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 27, 2023 ---

—Said Nakaba Morningstar

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 27, 2023 ---

Dude, the Chaos monsters born from other characters are somehow new entities. The same happened when Lancelot in the Movie pierced through the Chaos monster that was born from a bunch of Fairies and Giants creating a huge hole on its chest. The monster disappeared and nothing happened to any of those Gianrs/Fairies.
Tristan's Annihilation is roughly based on the same principle upon which Gojo's Hollow Purple was established: the Collision of matter/particle and its anti-matter / anti-particle. Nakaba and Gege both stressed that it is the COLLISON of the opposites (Blue and Red in the Gojo's case and Darkness & Light in Tristan's) that generates the Annihilation effect. Annihilation is simply defined as "Reducing something to Nothing".

Nakaba Morningstar

 

[Brim787]

As my favorite character , I hope Lancelot gets some challenges this time around . His fights aren’t as interesting after the 1st chapter of them , & it’s a bit boring seeing him get sidelined . Tristan & Gawain’s fight against the Testament Beast felt relieving , but the Nanashi fight lost its steam in 125 .

Being strong is a crux , but hopefully Nakaba can subvert this somehow . The depression idea Vortigern explained does seem to be a good way to go about it . Having to mentally prepare yourself in the midst of combat definitely puts the enemy at an advantage . I just hope he doesn’t steamroll through everything this time , as cool as it was prior . That’d turn redundant fast this time around .

 

[Redpercy]

I don't think they need some super personal reason to defeat Arthur.The main reason is that he wants to destroy the other places for Camelot and exterminate non-Humans. Percival didn't know anything and Ironside's visit was the trigger. Lancelot didn't even know about Jericho's fate until recently. For Tristan, he directly attacked his kingdom. Gawain left Camelot because she felt unsatisfied and wants answers. Since she is from Arthur's family we are bound to learn something even more personal sooner or later.

Exactly, Arthur being evil and a threat to Britannia is enough reason to justify the 4koa fighting him ()

The Sins, other than Meliodas, had no personal reason to fight the Demon King.
The fact that the Demon King was a threat on a global level was reason enough.

You don't need personal reasons to fight a villain when you're a hero


+ Lancelot to make an effort to win needs very strong opponents, or his opponents to have a numerical superiority or some advantage , not to stop his growth and suffer from depression.

I mean, in the fanbook, it's mentioned that Lancelot is the most stable and have the best mentally strong of the 4Koa, so him breaking down and getting depressed and leaving everything at the first hurdle even when Donny and Anne manage to control themselves, is not seem logical.

 

[Yakkun]

You can directly measure challenge difficulty for Lancelot by the amount of time he has to take his hands out of his pockets

 

[Demonspeed]

Didn't find Lancelot VS Nanashi bad. Honestly in terms of choreography his fighting style is up there with Mel and King's to me.

When Lancelot will lose, it should be to someone who is strong enough. Not because he is nerfed mentally. Unless he is fighting against allies or something. I am expecting a Lancelot VS Ban fight. If he doesn't have the right mindset he can spar with his father.

As for others catching up. I assume that when the KoAs fight Arthur, they will all be at their peak. Lancelot will simply reach his peak earlier than his three peers. We are expecting several time skips.

 

[Yakkun]

Is it weird for me to have this little fantasy in my head where Arthur eventually manages to blackmail Lancelot into his service temporally and makes him the tip of his spear, so to speak, to humiliate him and also benefit from his power and it will be Percival who overcomes Lancelot and beats him just this one time in the manga? The blackmail situation would explain why Lance was under pressure and thus not necessarily at the top of his game as he would otherwise be were he free (yet he would still be immensely strong) and Percival could show just how much he has grown compared to his early days where Lance was his tutor.

It would be a one-time thing and heavily tied in with the plot but it would kinda allow everyone to save face without the unnecessariy power level speculations.

 

[Redpercy]

ancelot will simply reach his peak earlier than his three peers

I think the most appropriate word is to achieve full control earlier not reach the peak earlier

Reach the peak is something that depends on age and experience

Assuming that Lancelot, Gawain, and Tristan have human lifespans, they will reach their physical peak between the ages of 20-35, while their magical powers should continue grow until they die.

"I don't know about Percival because he is a special case"

Is it weird for me to have this little fantasy in my head where Arthur eventually manages to blackmail Lancelot into his service temporally and makes him the tip of his spear, so to speak, to humiliate him and also benefit from his power and it will be Percival who overcomes Lancelot and beats him just this one time in the manga? The blackmail situation would explain why Lance was under pressure and thus not necessarily at the top of his game as he would otherwise be were he free (yet he would still be immensely strong) and Percival could show just how much he has grown compared to his early days where Lance was his tutor.

It would be a one-time thing and heavily tied in with the plot but it would kinda allow everyone to save face without the unnecessariy power level speculations.

Can I ask why you think Lancelot would betray his family and all his friends and follow his enemy who has harmed and kidnapped his relatives?

Arthur has nothing that might bring Lancelot to his side

Guinevere? Arthur cares about her and her safety because of her powers, so Lancelot doesn't have to worry about her

Jericho? She followed Arthur so she can't be used for blackmail and even if Arthur want, i don't see how Lancelot would choose her over his family and companions.

There is literally no convincing thing for blackmail Lancelot and made him turn against his family, his companions, and everyone he loved

 

[Demonspeed]

I am still betting on temporarily evil Tristan more than any other KoA(he has PoD comparable to Meliodas, come on). "Evil" Gawain can work, but only because of family drama/blackmailing.

It just works better with one of these two. As I said before, with Lancelot it's only possible to me if the romance with Guinevere reaches level of cringe of Melizabeth and Ban x Elaine.

The other possibility would be straight up mind control but this can happen to anyone. If there is such a thing then I do think it'll be Lancelot who will be the one.

 

[Redpercy]

I am still betting on temporarily evil Tristan more than any other KoA(he has PoD comparable to Meliodas, come on). "Evil" Gawain can work, but only because of family drama/blackmailing.

Yup, even if we think at the possibility of a Koa join Arthur
That's what I'm saying
Tristan, who has no control over the darkness within him yet, and Gawain, with Arthur can being able to manipulate it by exploiting their kinship and her identity problems, are better options for turning to the evil side.

It just works better with one of these two. As I said before, with Lancelot it's only possible to me if the romance with Guinevere reaches level of cringe of Melizabeth and Ban x Elaine.

Even if we assume that it will reach this point

Isn't this another reason for Lancelot to fight Arthur in order to regain the love of his life who kidnapped by Arthur?

Lancelot is literally an enemy and has conflicting interests with Arthur in all aspects

The other possibility would be straight up mind control but this can happen to anyone. If there is such a thing then I do think it'll be Lancelot who will be the one.

The problem with this scenario is that it will raise the question as to why Arthur didn't use this type of brainwashing on Meliodas before.
Or why he is not use it on everyone?

 

[Vortigern]

I respect the effort you put into writing your answer to me, but i don't think that i will read or respond to what you wrote

It is the third or fourth day of a discussion based on your personal perceptions that cannot be confirmed by any logic reason.

If you think you want to see more Gawain and Tristan while Lancelot and Percival are thrown off-screen, then that's your freedom, but don't try to convince me that your opinion makes sense just because it's your opinion.

You have a point of view that i don't think i will understand or agree with because i simply don't see it as logical and it does not fit my perception, while you seem to cling desperately to your ideas.

And you have a strange idea about character development that only associate it with strength and depression, which makes me think you don't even have a similar concept of character development like the concept i know



So let's end our fruitless discussion here

I think it's fine for you to not respond especially since I already suggested we wrap things up, although I find your claim that you didn't even read my post a bit hard to believe given that you seemingly accepted the suggestion. If you genuinely didn't read the post then it would also be odd for you to still assert your point, as it's essentially like plugging your ears and doing the "la la la I can't hear you" thing in an effort to have the last word or something. If that's what you were after then I suppose I'll go along with it and refrain from making any similar final statements of my own.

I don't think they need some super personal reason to defeat Arthur.The main reason is that he wants to destroy the other places for Camelot and exterminate non-Humans. Percival didn't know anything and Ironside's visit was the trigger. Lancelot didn't even know about Jericho's fate until recently. For Tristan, he directly attacked his kingdom. Gawain left Camelot because she felt unsatisfied and wants answers. Since she is from Arthur's family we are bound to learn something even more personal sooner or later.

It's not that each of the main characters needs a personal motive to be involved in the conflict, it's that lacking one makes their role in the events less meaningful and interesting. It's way harder to get invested in someone's journey when they're really just along for the ride for generic reasons. Arthur attacking Liones is something everyone living there is concerned about and I don't even remember Tristan ever speaking of that in the same way Percival and Lancelot have of their goals. Reda brought up the DK from NnT and you can see this effect there as well. Meliodas's issues with his father were the main focus of that conflict. Nobody cared how King for example felt about the ordeal because it didn't really involve him. King only had a meaningful role in the final arc to the extent that his character arc was still unfinished and needed to end with him maturing physically and proposing to Diane. On that note, Diane who didn't have such a luxury basically turned into a tertiary character who had a smaller role than the likes of Zelris and Mael. Tristan is currently in the same spot as Diane, someone who's there to fulfill their duty but who doesn't really have anything else going on. I want that to change and I'm hopeful it will once he gets more focus.

As my favorite character , I hope Lancelot gets some challenges this time around . His fights aren’t as interesting after the 1st chapter of them , & it’s a bit boring seeing him get sidelined . Tristan & Gawain’s fight against the Testament Beast felt relieving , but the Nanashi fight lost its steam in 125 .

Being strong is a crux , but hopefully Nakaba can subvert this somehow . The depression idea Vortigern explained does seem to be a good way to go about it . Having to mentally prepare yourself in the midst of combat definitely puts the enemy at an advantage . I just hope he doesn’t steamroll through everything this time , as cool as it was prior . That’d turn redundant fast this time around .

For what it's worth, I think Nakaba had a pretty good approach when it came to how he handled this issue in NnT. Escanor got a couple of easy fights but then started getting pushed to his absolute limit and eventually just outright suffered a miserable defeat. The time he was there just to humiliate the enemies was relatively short-lived since he was introduced quite late into the game and there was also an easy way to adjust his power just by changing the time of day. Lancelot is going to be a bit trickier to reel in, but I'm sure Nakaba has some kind of a plan in mind. I just hope that he doesn't repeat the mistake of the TC arc where he suddenly applied such an absurd degree of power creep that almost the entire cast became unable to even injure the enemies let alone defeat them. That along with the introduction of literal numerical power levels remain the two biggest complaints I have about NnT as a series, even with the lackluster final arc.

I mean, in the fanbook, it's mentioned that Lancelot is the most stable and have the best mentally strong of the 4Koa, so him breaking down and getting depressed and leaving everything at the first hurdle even when Donny and Anne manage to control themselves, is not seem logical.

@Reda92 Feel free to ignore this part because it's somewhat related to the discussion we agreed to end, I just wanted to highlight what you said for the others to see.

The example that was given in the fanbook was that Lancelot is the best at dealing with enemy attacks and unexpected situations, i.e. keeping cool when something surprising happens. That's different from the ability to process one's emotions, which explains why Lancelot lashed out in such fury against Mortlach and why he was so depressed in the aftermath. We also got a taste of something similar just after the demon village when Lancelot had a fight with Anne and then started brooding about how maybe he's not part of the group after all. It's these kinds of interpersonal matters that he struggles with the most since he's a loner that finds it hard to connect with both humans and fairies. Additionally, it was mentioned that Lancelot wouldn't look Ban and Elaine in the eye when he returned home and simply sobbed alone in his room, meaning that he can't even open up to his own parents about his troubles. He's very emotionally withdrawn with no one able to reach him, aside from maybe Percival and Guinevere who are both out of the picture right now. That's not a good place to be in mentally.

I am still betting on temporarily evil Tristan more than any other KoA(he has PoD comparable to Meliodas, come on). "Evil" Gawain can work, but only because of family drama/blackmailing.

I doubt any of the KotA are going to outright turn evil. A more plausible and I'd argue interesting idea would be for some kind of personal disagreements to put two of them at odds with one another, think something like Ban trying to kill Meliodas because the goddess in the horn promised to revive Elaine, or Diane getting upset at Gowther for manipulating people's memories for personal benefit. In the legends there's a famous duel between Lancelot and Tristan and I feel like it would be a good idea to pit those two against one another since they're so similar. They're both direct descendants of the gods, children of the Sins, fellow hybrids struggling to fit in and were even given names at the same time. It feels right for their fates to be intertwined given how the two got their start. I also believe the way their signature techniques behave would make for a really cool clash, with Lancelot's Shining Road shooting up in the sky while Tristan's Falling Star crashes down to the ground, the singular beam piercing the cluster of stars. That would be an amazing visual and also a metaphor for whatever opposing ideas they would be clashing over in this scenario.

It just works better with one of these two. As I said before, with Lancelot it's only possible to me if the romance with Guinevere reaches level of cringe of Melizabeth and Ban x Elaine.

I'm almost scared to ask, but can you elaborate?

 

[Yakkun]

I think the most appropriate word is to achieve full control earlier not reach the peak earlier

Reach the peak is something that depends on age and experience

Assuming that Lancelot, Gawain, and Tristan have human lifespans, they will reach their physical peak between the ages of 20-35, while their magical powers should continue grow until they die.

"I don't know about Percival because he is a special case"



Can I ask why you think Lancelot would betray his family and all his friends and follow his enemy who has harmed and kidnapped his relatives?

Arthur has nothing that might bring Lancelot to his side

Guinevere? Arthur cares about her and her safety because of her powers, so Lancelot doesn't have to worry about her

Jericho? She followed Arthur so she can't be used for blackmail and even if Arthur want, i don't see how Lancelot would choose her over his family and companions.

There is literally no convincing thing for blackmail Lancelot and made him turn against his family, his companions, and everyone he loved

Yes, because of Guinevere. Arthur already made it clear that he needs a wife, a queen for appearances sake. It is not out of love. Why do you think he keeps her around? Exactly, for her powers. They are the means to an end, that end being dominating Britania. He already has begun that process over the past two years. What do you imagine happens once she served her purpose?

She is not as save as you think. And Lancelot as a very kind-hearted boy despite his stern demeanor. This also extends towards Jericho or else she would already be dead. He is a lot more blackmailable than you think. Jericho and Lancelot's family being more potential targets are just the icing on the cake.

 

[Redpercy]

I think it's fine for you to not respond especially since I already suggested we wrap things up, although I find your claim that you didn't even read my post a bit hard to believe given that you seemingly accepted the suggestion. If you genuinely didn't read the post then it would also be odd for you to still assert your point, as it's essentially like plugging your ears and doing the "la la la I can't hear you" thing in an effort to have the last word or something. If that's what you were after then I suppose I'll go along with it and refrain from making any similar final statements of my own.

If I wanted to have the last word, I would have responded to you and then suggested ending things

But I did not respond or even read what you wrote, It is not a lack of respect or neglect, but rather because our discussion will only led to a dead end

Since the beginning of the discussion, You don't come up with clear or new arguments and it just creates unwanted tension in the thread so there is no point in continuing

Whether now or in "Ban vs Iranside and Pell" or in your theory about "a fake Lancelot killing Ban" or in your predictions about "the distribution of battles of the 4koa and Platoons against the Chaos Knights in the Demon Arc" etc... i don't agree with your opinions because Because they were opinions that did not match my vision and analysis of things

We seem to have different views, the i can respect them but I don't think I can agree with them

You stated your opinion and I explained why I disagreed with, but after that you insisted on forcing me to believe that your opinion is correct even when it is not supported by real arguments

The example that was given in the fanbook was that Lancelot is the best at dealing with enemy attacks and unexpected situations, i.e. keeping cool when something surprising happens. That's different from the ability to process one's emotions, which explains why Lancelot lashed out in such fury against Mortlach and why he was so depressed in the aftermath. We also got a taste of something similar just after the demon village when Lancelot had a fight with Anne and then started brooding about how maybe he's not part of the group after all. It's these kinds of interpersonal matters that he struggles with the most since he's a loner that finds it hard to connect with both humans and fairies. Additionally, it was mentioned that Lancelot wouldn't look Ban and Elaine in the eye when he returned home and simply sobbed alone in his room, meaning that he can't even open up to his own parents about his troubles. He's very emotionally withdrawn with no one able to reach him, aside from maybe Percival and Guinevere who are both out of the picture right now. That's not a good place to be in mentally.

The paragraph in which this exampel was mentioned was “Mental stability,” which means 3the sense of being in control of their personal thoughts and actions3, and the exampel was mentioned to clarify that it is difficult to break him even under big pressure.

So I don't think he'll be the first to break down emotionally, become depressed, and lock himself in his room for two years when Percival decides to leave.

Sadness over the departure of his companion and psychological and emotional breakdown are two completely different things

Yes, because of Guinevere. Arthur already made it clear that he needs a wife, a queen for appearances sake. It is not out of love. Why do you think he keeps her around? Exactly, for her powers. They are the means to an end, that end being dominating Britania. He already has begun that process over the past two years. What do you imagine happens once she served her purpose?

She is not as save as you think. And Lancelot as a very kind-hearted boy despite his stern demeanor. This also extends towards Jericho or else she would already be dead. He is a lot more blackmailable than you think. Jericho and Lancelot's family being more potential targets are just the icing on the cake.

Arthur still needs Guinevere as long as the sins, the 4koa, and any potential danger are alive

His need for her will not end until he defeats everyone and takes control of everything, and even then, he may still need her to anticipate future dangers.

Guinevere's power is needed and important to Arthur in any case, and he cannot abandon it, and introducing it to his people means that he has no thoughts of abandoning it in the future.

Also, the fact that Guinevere or anyone is in danger is an additional reason for Lancelot to fight Arthur and not to join him.

As for Jericho, although she is important to Lancelot, it cannot be more important than his family and companions.

There is no logical equation here in Lancelot betraying all his family and companions just for the sake of Jericho. As for Guinevere, Lancelot needs to save her, not to support her kidnapper.

 

[Demonspeed]

It's not that each of the main characters needs a personal motive to be involved in the conflict, it's that lacking one makes their role in the events less meaningful and interesting. It's way harder to get invested in someone's journey when they're really just along for the ride for generic reasons. Arthur attacking Liones is something everyone living there is concerned about and I don't even remember Tristan ever speaking of that in the same way Percival and Lancelot have of their goals. Reda brought up the DK from NnT and you can see this effect there as well. Meliodas's issues with his father were the main focus of that conflict. Nobody cared how King for example felt about the ordeal because it didn't really involve him. King only had a meaningful role in the final arc to the extent that his character arc was still unfinished and needed to end with him maturing physically and proposing to Diane. On that note, Diane who didn't have such a luxury basically turned into a tertiary character who had a smaller role than the likes of Zelris and Mael. Tristan is currently in the same spot as Diane, someone who's there to fulfill their duty but who doesn't really have anything else going on. I want that to change and I'm hopeful it will once he gets more focus.

It must be a subjective thing. Honestly I didn't care much about the Demon Family conflict, maybe because he was such a terrible villain. And although King isn't one of my favorite Sins, IMO he had the best development overall. I wouldn't compare Tristan to Diane, he has his issues(comparisons to his parents, self-worth and control of his powers etc). He didn't say anything about Arthur destroying his kingdom, but it must have been more personal him since he is the prince. I don't believe that Tristan has nothing going on, what happens to him is just repetitive. Also, Meliodas and/or Elizabeth's death(s) are still possible development.

I doubt any of the KotA are going to outright turn evil. A more plausible and I'd argue interesting idea would be for some kind of personal disagreements to put two of them at odds with one another, think something like Ban trying to kill Meliodas because the goddess in the horn promised to revive Elaine, or Diane getting upset at Gowther for manipulating people's memories for personal benefit. In the legends there's a famous duel between Lancelot and Tristan and I feel like it would be a good idea to pit those two against one another since they're so similar. They're both direct descendants of the gods, children of the Sins, fellow hybrids struggling to fit in and were even given names at the same time. It feels right for their fates to be intertwined given how the two got their start. I also believe the way their signature techniques behave would make for a really cool clash, with Lancelot's Shining Road shooting up in the sky while Tristan's Falling Star crashes down to the ground, the singular beam piercing the cluster of stars. That would be an amazing visual and also a metaphor for whatever opposing ideas they would be clashing over in this scenario.


I'm almost scared to ask, but can you elaborate?

Of course, none of them will be evil. But it makes more sense to me to have Tristan or Gawain as temporary antagonists. Tristan because of his control issues and Gawain because of a conflict of interests and/or blackmailing since she is from Arthur's family. I can't think of a logical reason for Lancelot. But in NnT we have people doing the dumbest things for love, that's why only Guinevere "makes sense" if Lancelot ends up becoming a temporary antagonist. Ban trying to kill Meliodas is a perfect example of that(and very lame IMO): "My life has been hell since her death blah blah blah", there is also Meliodas deciding to become DK to free Elizabeth(but this at least wasn't bad). Thankfully, none of the main pairings in MnY are at the level of cringe that NnT had so far (Lancelot x Guinevere is the closest pairing to that though).

Another scenario I can think of is he working for Arthur but as a spy, with another persona since he is a transformation expert.

No matter how shocking Percival's death was to Lancelot. He losing his mojo for 2 years seems too much to me. And it probably wouldn't be a good way to nerf him. Especially if you are comparing him to his three peers.

I think the most appropriate word is to achieve full control earlier not reach the peak earlier

Reach the peak is something that depends on age and experience

Assuming that Lancelot, Gawain, and Tristan have human lifespans, they will reach their physical peak between the ages of 20-35, while their magical powers should continue grow until they die.

"I don't know about Percival because he is a special case"

I don't think too much about that. It probably doesn't matter. It's a fantasy battle shonen. Whatever level they will be at during the final battle will be their peak anyway.

The problem with this scenario is that it will raise the question as to why Arthur didn't use this type of brainwashing on Meliodas before.
Or why he is not use it on everyone?

It doesn't have to be Arthur doing it(and he kinda did brainwash Mera and Galan). That's just one of the coherent scenario I can think of.

 

[Tristan]

What are the chances of there being another (opposite) consequence / effect to the combination of Light & Darkness?

In Physics, Annihilation and creation (Pair production) are related processes involving the conversion of matter into energy and vice versa. They demonstrate the fundamental law of energy conservation.

- Light + Darkness => clash = Annihilation
- Light + Darkness => harmony = creation

 

[Yakkun]

What are the chances of there being another (opposite) consequence / effect to the combination of Light & Darkness?

In Physics, Annihilation and creation (Pair production) are related processes involving the conversion of matter into energy and vice versa. They demonstrate the fundamental law of energy conservation.

- Light + Darkness => clash = Annihilation
- Light + Darkness => harmony = creation

You mean bombarding light particles with darkness orbs during his demon mode? First, he'd have to master that without losing control over himself although I doubt that's going to be a longterm issue for Tristan anyway.

Other than that, no idea. Creation is a lot more complex as a concept compared to destruction since the latter fundamentally boils down to deconstructing matter to its smalles possible parts or collapsing them in on itself until singularity? I'm not a physics buff, I don't know. If we consider Tristan's apocalyptic title however it may not be exactly a reversal of the annihilation process we have already seen but more a variation to his goddess related powers.

Or to put what I mean into role play gaming terms - goddess clan powers revolve around healing and buffing. Adding a darkness element to said powers may allow Tristan to create "debuffs" - or in other words, curses and ailments.

 

[Tristan]

Other than that, no idea. Creation is a lot more complex as a concept compared to destruction since the latter fundamentally boils down to deconstructing matter to its smalles possible parts or collapsing them in on itself until singularity? I'm not a physics buff, I don't know. If we consider Tristan's apocalyptic title however it may not be exactly a reversal of the annihilation process we have already seen but more a variation to his goddess related powers.

The Apocalyptic title of the hero knights seem to be negative (i.e. "Death" as in Percy's case). So I'd argue that Annihilation (Destruction) is the apocalyptic nature of Tristan's power. When I referred to "creation", of course I didn't mean it in the sense of "creatio ex nihilo"; cuz in particle physics, creation is simply the conversion of energy to matter which makes it the reversal of Annihilation (aka reducing matter to energy). Speaking of which, the strongest members of the GC demonstrated an insanely powerful feature of healing, to the point where they were able to almost reconstruct fully destroyed human body parts:

Spoiler

Percival brings "Death", but also "Life". I guess same would happen to at least to Tristan who brings Destruction and might be able to bring Creation as well.

 

[Demonspeed]

The chances? Very low.

The Apocalyptic title of the hero knights seem to be negative (i.e. "Death" as in Percy's case). So I'd argue that Annihilation (Destruction) is the apocalyptic nature of Tristan's power. When I referred to "creation", of course I didn't mean it in the sense of "creatio ex nihilo"; cuz in particle physics, creation is simply the conversion of energy to matter which makes it the reversal of Annihilation (aka reducing matter to energy). Speaking of which, the strongest members of the GC demonstrated an insanely powerful feature of healing, to the point where they were able to almost reconstruct fully destroyed human body parts:

Spoiler

Percival brings "Death", but also "Life". I guess same would happen to at least to Tristan who brings Destruction and might be able to bring Creation as well.

You are focusing way too much on that Annihilation power, it's not everything. Tristan is the Knight of Pestilence, it's not tied to that kind of destruction in general.

We don't know much about Tristan's title but I think his inability to deal with curses and diseases is more relevant for the Knight of Pestilence than Annihilation.