Discussion Ace was kind of weak?

[Sachsenhesse]

You're comparing Van Augur to Usopp, that's absurd. These people confronted Shanks and live to tell the tale, that implies these guys are at least strong enough to withstand Haki and formidable. They're definitely stronger than the SHs at the time as they've been portrayed in that light.

Big deal. In the auctionhouse most of the rookiecrews didnt collapse by Rayleighs haki. This doesnt mean anything. And whats "confronted"? The only one in BB-Crews to this time who confronted Shanks was BB for all we know.

That's not what Van Augur was impressed about, he was impressed on his defensive abilities as a Logia which is why he said Logia are usually concentrated on their DF whilst Ace wasn't and was utilizing the attributes limited to non-Logia character.

The funny thing is... what did Ace do? He was standing there and spamming fire, then a jump and again.. fire. No hand to hand combat at all. The only praisable is that he didnt die by BBs first punch.

Ace adapted after just 1 attack to rely on his physical attributes to defend and that could only have been done with Haki which is why he's praised by Van Augur.

Ah come ooooon. Did Luffy use Haki everytime he was dodging things? BB isnt the fastpuncher, he is a hardpuncher if we go by boxing terms he is an infighter not an outboxer like Ace. Ace fightingstyle was mostly sending fire from a distance, where as BB style is now drawing things to him and beat them to a pulp. If he had haki, he would have seen the first punch coming too. But... where exactly stated Van Auger: "wow such a good haki from Ace."? ^^

If you're accustomed to not being hit, then it's literally impossible to switch off that mentality which is the only thing Van Augur's comment can allude to.

Strange... didnt you said before that haki wasnt a specialthing in the new world? How comes then that Ace didnt switch off that attitude? I mean by this logic his enemies in the new world couldnt touch him because they didnt know any haki? But since they do, like you and others said before, he should have switched this attitude off for certain. D:

You know there's more to taking things at face value and actually reading in-between the lies? You're way too simplistic in your analysis, lol.

And you read too much between lines. Well must be good with the ladies then i think... atleast they always speak in riddles and between lines.

He could even fight Aokiji well.

Fire vs. Ice ... Ace was his natural enemy and still couldnt overpower him.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Big deal. In the auctionhouse most of the rookiecrews didnt collapse by Rayleighs haki. This doesnt mean anything. And whats "confronted"? The only one in BB-Crews to this time who confronted Shanks was BB for all we know.



The funny thing is... what did Ace do? He was standing there and spamming fire, then a jump and again.. fire. No hand to hand combat at all. The only praisable is that he didnt die by BBs first punch.



Ah come ooooon. Did Luffy use Haki everytime he was dodging things? BB isnt the fastpuncher, he is a hardpuncher if we go by boxing terms he is an infighter not an outboxer like Ace. Ace fightingstyle was mostly sending fire from a distance, where as BB style is now drawing things to him and beat them to a pulp. If he had haki, he would have seen the first punch coming too. But... where exactly stated Van Auger: "wow such a good haki from Ace."? ^^



Strange... didnt you said before that haki wasnt a specialthing in the new world? How comes then that Ace didnt switch off that attitude? I mean by this logic his enemies in the new world couldnt touch him because they didnt know any haki? But since they do, like you and others said before, he should have switched this attitude off for certain. D:



And you read too much between lines. Well must be good with the ladies then i think... atleast they always speak in riddles and between lines.




Fire vs. Ice ... Ace was his natural enemy and still couldnt overpower him.

From what we know Shanks has the most powerful of Conqueror's Haki and even people aboard WB's ship were knocked out.

I did say Haki wasn't a special thing in the New World because it was common to have it and needed for one's survival as Rayleigh stated. Van Augur complimented his basic fighting style which dismisses how he fought as he was still using his DF, but pointing to how Ace was defending despite being a Logia.

Ace couldn't dodge since he was more or less always going to be pinned to BB's hand; we know that BB's style of combat is to pull in the opponent with his DF rendering their DF powers useless before landing a power punch as seen against Luffy and Whitebeard.

It only leaves Ace to rely on CoA to defend since he's always going to be in a fixed position after BB lands a punch. If Van Augur was complimenting him on his Resilience, then he'd never have stated he had amazing fighting abilities.

Van Augur's compliment is centred around how Ace can fight despite his inability to become intangible not inhibiting him which is contrary to Van Augur's stereotype towards Logias.

Ace and Aokiji wasn't an explicit fight, they only exchanged attacks that canceled the other out. Aokiji vs Akainu is a fight, there was a winner in that instance.

It's not so much as reading between the lines, it's just logic. If I assume all basketball players to have poor technique when controlling a ball with their feet, I'd compliment them for proving otherwise; the same Logic can be applied to to Van Augur's statement in this scenario.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

It only leaves Ace to rely on CoA to defend since he's always going to be in a fixed position after BB lands a punch. If Van Augur was complimenting him on his Resilience, then he'd never have stated he had amazing fighting abilities.

And thats were you contradict yourself. He praised his fighting abilities apart from the logia. You can be a logia and still got good haki, but logia + a good body to fight with seems in this case much more rare. And i doubt that its meant otherwise because right there it didnt seemed that Oda was planning to use haki so as he did it now.

And yes he got pulled to BB, but did he raised his arms for blocking his neck how you would do, if you expect a punch to this area? No he didnt.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

And thats were you contradict yourself. He praised his fighting abilities apart from the logia. You can be a logia and still got good haki, but logia + a good body to fight with seems in this case much more rare. And i doubt that its meant otherwise because right there it didnt seemed that Oda was planning to use haki so as he did it now.

And yes he got pulled to BB, but did he raised his arms for blocking his neck how you would do, if you expect a punch to this area? No he didnt.

That can't be the case, having a good body isn't a fighting ability. That why I said if he was being praised for having a good body or resilience, he'd have complimented him for his durability, not his "basic fighting ability" as being amazing.

Fighting involves attacking and defending, he's attacking with his DF but defending with his body. If one cannot become intangible to defend which most Logia still attempt to do (since they're too focused on their DF) as Van Augur implies, the only other way to defend is with CoA.

As you said he didn't raise his arm to defend, yet he's being praised for his fighting ability? The only other thing he could have done is defend with CoA which he most likely did last minute and that'll be praise worthy.

As for Oda not planning to use Haki, that'd be absurd. CoC was used in chapter 1, it's unlikely Oda never planned to use CoA and CoO too. How else did he plan for Luffy to be able to defeat Smoker down the line? or other Logia?

 

[kkck]

And thats were you contradict yourself. He praised his fighting abilities apart from the logia. You can be a logia and still got good haki, but logia + a good body to fight with seems in this case much more rare. And i doubt that its meant otherwise because right there it didnt seemed that Oda was planning to use haki so as he did it now.

And yes he got pulled to BB, but did he raised his arms for blocking his neck how you would do, if you expect a punch to this area? No he didnt.

Well, the implication so far is that logia who rely too much in their fruit die at the new world. Ace wasn't someone who just went up and died, he was someone who at the new world made a name for himself, seized a position which was largely the actual top of the world as a commander and earned himself a 550 mil bounty, something which luffy did not get after raiding all 3 great marine bases and beating several shichibukai. So ace wasn't just some punk who was all about his fruit. Now, the issue is that the range of power in OP is completely and utterly insane and ultimately how strong ace was depends on whom exactly you compare him to. Ace didn't die fighting some punk with a tad of haki, he died fighting freaking akainu, an admiral whom later fought and defeated aokiji. And from what we saw akainu basically ended up sparring aokiji and ended up mutilated while akainu kept all his limbs.

Akainu is easily at the top 10 of the world when it comes to strength. Now, for more context. We saw how much luffy, sanji and zoro grew through the timeskip. They mastered haki and their strength in incredible. Realistically speaking sanji could be put up against virtually every enemy the strawhats faced during part 1 at the same time and he would still win the fight. By far the most dangerous people the strawhats faced in part 1 were crocodile and moria and clearly sanji as we have seen him recently is well stronger than either. If crocodile ended up taken out by luffy's punches from before the gears then I really have a hard time seeing him as being trouble against current sanji. Moria was weak and it seems like the pacifista gave him trouble. In turn sanji can probably handle a platoon of pacifista (though doflamingo was there too so perhaps he was the one who turned the tide). 10 CP9 would be fodder to current sanji.... And even then, sanji is nowhere near the top of the world when it comes to strength. He impressed doflamingo but he didn't actually last against him. Law didn't last long against him either, it took several confrontations and fighting alongside luffy to actually land a hit on him. Luffy has been using the utmost extremes of his power and he still has not yet won against a half dead doflamingo. And even then doflamingo hesitates to fight against admirals and in all likelyhood would really loose against one. The margin is questionable though.

Add to that that the WB we saw was old, wounded, past his prime and sick when he faced the admirals and even then he seemed to be the stronger one. Even after having half his face blown off BB still couldn't get the upper hand on him alone. God knows the sort of power WB had in his youth. Anyways, with all of that in mind the situation is clearly that the range of strength people in the manga can have is simply too wide. Its so wide that someone who could foderize every enemy the strawhats had at the new world would not even make it to mid level pirate at the new world and someone from a slightly higher tier could end up foderizing him.

With all that context the situation is not that ace was weak. His strength was immense but he simply wasn't at the top of the world yet. He fought an admiral, someone whom we know would be at a much higher position than ace in terms of power and rank. Given what akainu said we can reasonably make the case that ace got overconfident but even that is not enough to suggest ace was in any form weak. Everything the manga has said suggests ace was someone with quite a bit of power who earned his position as WB's lieutenant. He simply wasn't ready to take on the strongest admiral out there. I doubt luffy, zoro or sanji today would actually fare much better against an admiral than ace did.

Arguing ace was weak because he was defeated by an admiral would be like arguing current luffy is worthless because he is having trouble defeating a literally half dead doflamingo who even at top condition is probably not as strong as an admiral.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Ace wasn't someone who just went up and died, he was someone who at the new world made a name for himself, seized a position which was largely the actual top of the world as a commander and earned himself a 550 mil bounty, something which luffy did not get after raiding all 3 great marine bases and beating several shichibukai. So ace wasn't just some punk who was all about his fruit.

Funny. The Government did cover the fact that Lufy defeated Moria, so in terms of bounty he only beat 1. But what is even more funny is, that when Ace was introduced to the marines he was described as a "pirate with the power of a logia". So in Luffysbounty didnt get Moria in, but in Aces Bounty his fruit.

he died fighting freaking akainu

"fighting"

By far the most dangerous people the strawhats faced in part 1 were crocodile and moria and clearly sanji as we have seen him recently is well stronger than either.

Would be something for the colloseum, because i dont think Sanji stands a chance against either of them where Luffy had fight them.

Arguing ace was weak because he was defeated by an admiral would be like arguing current luffy is worthless because he is having trouble defeating a literally half dead doflamingo who even at top condition is probably not as strong as an admiral.

I´m not saying he was weak because Akainu beat him, i say he was weak because we never saw something really impressive from him. Against Akainu... 2 punches and dead. Against BB... BB hasnt even had a scratch. Against Smoker... it seemed a friggin tie. (which was impressive for back then but right now its just meh) He couldnt overpower Aokiji but had the elemental advantage on his side. The biggest feat we saw was the destroying of some ships thanks to his fruit. EVERY impressive thing we see from Ace comes from his fruit. Thats why i say he was weak.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Credit: Sandman_A{
Source:
Ace was fighting Vice-Admiral Draw who is somewhat immune to fire, as a result, Ace begun to utilise Haki. He even mentions how Ace gets stronger with each fight

I'm glad Oda is releasing these titbits of information. We see Deuce stating that Ace is strong without his Mera Mera no Mi, exactly what Van Augur was alluding to. Van Augur said take away a DF user's power and they become weak because they have to rely on their basic fighting qualities (more or less, their physical intrinsic strength). Ace couldn't use his Mera Mera no Mi against Vice-Admiral Draw, and he won with his sheer power.

Anyone can posses a powerful ability, only very few can be strong without it. It's just goes to show that among the power, their abilities are complementary to their true strength, not that it is their true strength which is often thought of in the inverted way.

On a side note, we finally, we also know that if Ace wanted to defeat Smoker there and then, he could have. He just chose to stall, meet with Luffy and get on with his hunt for Blackbeard