At that particular time, Whitebeard would've been 70+, at Marineford he was 72. Since he's a normal human, I'd say 70+ is past his prime.
The reason for him not going to Wano is explained by Marco (because of fear of casualty), their strength is not mentioned in respect to each other, so no clear conclusion can be made. Whitebeard was still considerd the World Strongest Man so that fact is in his favour. Any clash between the two of them would've been high difficulty, in my opinion.
At that particular time, Whitebeard would've been 70+, at Marineford he was 72. Since he's a normal human, I'd say 70+ is past his prime.
The reason for him not going to Wano is explained by Marco (because of fear of casualty), their strength is not mentioned in respect to each other, so no clear conclusion can be made. Whitebeard was still considerd the World Strongest Man so that fact is in his favour. Any clash between the two of them would've been high difficulty, in my opinion.
Which does make sense in Whitebeard's character as his dream was never about having an title or position, but more so having a family. He see his crew as his sons and daughters (If they are female members in the crew), so he doesn't want to see them in a battle that even Oden had trouble with even when Whitebeard wins. War is nothing to ignore when you think about how it could affect both sides. Whitebeard wasn't afraid of Kaido, but more concern on the results of damage on others.
Long post incoming. In the spoiler tag I'll try to cover the whole topic of swordsmanship in One Piece, which is getting pretty offtopic but it's how I support my believes on the topic at hand.
The hard thing of talking about swordsmen in One Piece is defining what a swordsman is. It's clear that having some technique with a sword is necessary, but there are different kinds of swordsmen.
For starters, the most basic differentiation between swordsmen is whether they use the strong blade (Zoro) or the gentle blade (Tashigi or Brook); meaning whether they focus more on overpowering their opponents through strength or through speed, while Mihawk is supposed to be a perfect master of both things.
But those are not the only types. For example, Zoro recognized Cabaji as a swordsman. Cabaji was a guy who fought on an unicycle, throwing spinning tops and spewing flames, and that showed no special techniques with his sword, but the fact that he wielded one as his main weapon was enough for Zoro to consider him one, so it's clear to me we should consider swordsmen any character who uses a sword as his main weapon even if he uses additional tricks as part of his fighting style. If such a man defeated Mihawk, it may not feel the most honorable, but he would effectively become the World Strongest Swordsman.
To further support that point, Oda has acknowledged characters like Ohm as swordsmen. Ohm only showed basic swordsmanship and his main strengths came from the gimmick in his sword and from having the giant dog he had tamed tag-team his opponents. He couldn't be any more dirty as a swordsman, but he was one.
There's usually some people who argue that the WSS title is only about skill and that characters like Shanks may not be WSS because they lack skill but are still superior fighters. I personally think it's a flawed argument for different reasons. For one, haki is clearly part of swordsmanship in One Piece. If, for example, Brook, had somehow more "real-life skills" than Zoro with his sword but he was defeated in one slash because Zoro broke his sword with haki, then Zoro would be the stronger and better swordsman. Haki is swordsmanship when applied to it. Also, a character like Rayleigh being able to kick or punch his opponent in a fight doesn't make him be less of a swordsman: those are just part of the fighting style. If someone were to duel Mihawk and in the middle of the swordfight they just knocked him out with a punch, they would have still won as swordsmen.
One way to support this is that if Cabaji is considered one, there's no way that Shanks or Rayleigh aren't just because they can throw a punch. Zoro also can, and I bet Mihawk can, too, if he wished to.
Another way to support this is that if only "pure skills" and not overall fighting skills and haki were taken into consideration, it would be both impossible to measure and pointless. They have to fight and defeat eachother to prove who's stronger, like Zoro has been doing, and like he told to Cabaji, there are no excuses to be made. Either they win or they don't. It would be very hard to Mihawk to have achieved his title by going "Hey, Shanks, let's fight, but let's only use basic swordsmanship and not throw anything else at each other, alright? This way we'll see who's stronger in this very specific field of techniques". I believe they are always all-out fights, or at least, all-out friendly bouts in their case.
Now, coming back to your question. In the case of Luffy, it all depends in if he could actually properly attack with the sword and not just hold it like an ornament. For example, when he was Nightmare Luffy in Thriller Bark, he was a swordsman, because he could actually use a sword in a efficient way on top of being able to throw devastating punches. But normal Luffy wouldn't have the skills to do much with it, and I think that's the only thing that differenciates him from a swordsman. If he had some skill with it, that would be enough to call him one.
There's also the possibility of there being stronger swordsmen than Mihawk that did not care about the title, but it's unlikely going with the plot and his purpose as a character. Taking all of this into account, EOS Zoro who should have become the strongest swordsman, he should be above any character that could be considered one. In the case of Shanks, it should be much clearer than if we talked for example about Law.
Now it depends on how Shanks actually compares to WB, Roger and Garp. I honestly don't know, but I like to think that while the older generation always seems unreachable, it's mostly because they become legends and due to oldage it can never be confirmed that their prime has been surpassed.
For Zoro to become WSS, going by what I believe, he should become Yonko-tier. I don't think he'll ever be able to stomp a Yonko, I'm not crazy, being on the same level as them is enough to defeat them, so it all comes down to how the current Yonko compare to the top-tiers from the past, and that's what we should debate about here.
Luffy and BB are sure to reach Roger's tier; Zoro is the weak link in the chain, but if the current Yonko are on that tier, then Zoro EOS will be, too.
Well, I was thinking of Mihawk or Zoro fighting without sword, like hand-to-hand combat. What if their opponent is great at hand-to-hand and wants to fight like that, like Garp? Like, what if Garp can break one or two of Zoro's swords and force him to go hand-to-hand?
He wouldn't need to be an Emperor-tier though, if Mihawk isn't. He would if someone beats Mihawk before Zoro does and is actually an Emperor-level.
I mean, the main way Luffy can surpass Roger is by changing the world for the better permanently, it seems like that's going to happen. Roger was dying, so he decided to become the Pirate King too late, while Luffy's aiming to become that at a young age. Plus, I still can't see end of story Luffy being able to deal with Whitebeard with gura gura no mi, but then again, he's going to have to fight Blackbeard, so we'll see.
Well, I was thinking of Mihawk or Zoro fighting without sword, like hand-to-hand combat. What if their opponent is great at hand-to-hand and wants to fight like that, like Garp? Like, what if Garp can break one or two of Zoro's swords and force him to go hand-to-hand?
He wouldn't need to be an Emperor-tier though, if Mihawk isn't. He would if someone beats Mihawk before Zoro does and is actually an Emperor-level.
I mean, the main way Luffy can surpass Roger is by changing the world for the better permanently, it seems like that's going to happen. Roger was dying, so he decided to become the Pirate King too late, while Luffy's aiming to become that at a young age. Plus, I still can't see end of story Luffy being able to deal with Whitebeard with gura gura no mi, but then again, he's going to have to fight Blackbeard, so we'll see.
Rayleigh isn't PK Tier to be honest at all as gap was shown even in flashbacks. Zoro is more liability in this fight though. Also agree on Mihawk status as if Zoro facing him, it doesn't push much him being PK tier either.
I mean, the main way Luffy can surpass Roger is by changing the world for the better permanently, it seems like that's going to happen. Roger was dying, so he decided to become the Pirate King too late, while Luffy's aiming to become that at a young age. Plus, I still can't see end of story Luffy being able to deal with Whitebeard with gura gura no mi, but then again, he's going to have to fight Blackbeard, so we'll see.
Well, I was thinking of Mihawk or Zoro fighting without sword, like hand-to-hand combat. What if their opponent is great at hand-to-hand and wants to fight like that, like Garp? Like, what if Garp can break one or two of Zoro's swords and force him to go hand-to-hand?
- If Zoro makes Garp sustain heavy damage before Garp destroys his swords, then Zoro can still possibly defeat him using mutoryu. His haki and strength should both still be high tier.
- If Garp somehow breaks Zoro's swords from the very beginning, then yeah, Garp would demolish Zoro.
However, Mihawk said that a sword that has become a Kokuto like his cannot break. I expect Zoro's swords to be completely undestructible by EOS unless we see a Kokuto actually break.
I believe that Mihawk is (speaking strictly in terms of fighting capability) but for this discussion it doesn't matter if he is not.
If Mihawk is weaker than Shanks then he's not good enough for Zoro to achieve his dream. Since this is a happy shonen and all MCs will achieve their dreams, Zoro will surpass Rayleigh and Shanks by EOS, which means he will necessarily become current yonko-tier.
Zoro's dream is to be stronger than any swordsman, not to be stronger than Mihawk.
- If Zoro makes Garp sustain heavy damage before Garp destroys his swords, then Zoro can still possibly defeat him using mutoryu. His haki and strength should both still be high tier.
- If Garp somehow breaks Zoro's swords from the very beginning, then yeah, Garp would demolish Zoro.
However, Mihawk said that a sword that has become a Kokuto like his cannot break. I expect Zoro's swords to be completely undestructible by EOS unless we see a Kokuto actually break.
I trust Mihawk.
I believe that Mihawk is (speaking strictly in terms of fighting capability) but for this discussion it doesn't matter if he is not.
If Mihawk is weaker than Shanks then he's not good enough for Zoro to achieve his dream. Since this is a happy shonen and all MCs will achieve their dreams, Zoro will surpass Rayleigh and Shanks by EOS, which means he will necessarily become current yonko-tier.
Zoro's dream is to be stronger than any swordsman, not to be stronger than Mihawk.
I mean, even without the swords, Zoro's strength is quite considerable, no? I just don't think it's comparable to Garp, and Zoro would have to deal significant damage to Garp for his fists to have effect. Didn't Garp take an axe slash but woke up laughing or something? But then again we don't have anything to compare Zoro's strength too, except for Mihawk vs. Luffy at Marineford.
Possible, but Garp's known to do impossible things. Granted, Chinjao's head isn't the same as a sword, but still.
How is he not good enough for Zoro if he's still one of the best or the best? Even if he tied with Shanks?
I know, hence why I always say that Mihawk might not be Zoro's opponent for the title if someone else beats Mihawk. If Mihawk isn't an Emperor level but the person who beat him is, then Zoro's victory over the new successor would make him an Emperor level. But honestly, we have too many unknowns here to really conclude because we don't know what Roger and Garp were/are capable of, and we don't know what Zoro's ceiling is, and we don't know how good Blackbeard is with his fruits.
Rayleigh isn't PK Tier to be honest at all as gap was shown even in flashbacks. Zoro is more liability in this fight though. Also agree on Mihawk status as if Zoro facing him, it doesn't push much him being PK tier either.
Zoro get shit kick out of each one. Your not disrespecting Old Legends especially Garp to lose to fodder once he break his swords. Zoro isn't PK Tier at all.
There's been an update to our forum rules to broaden crediting/sourcing to all series news/announcement, etc. Please read HERE
Please all take some time to read the WELCOME THREAD, as we've made some updates, which is especially important for new threads on this forum. Thank you.
Oscars Contest 2023 is LIVE! Click HERE for a chance to win your Oscar!
It's back! MH presents a celebration of manga/anime culture; Mangahelpers Awards 2022 is NOW LIVE!
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
