Group Group C

[Vex_Haid]

Acno isn't getting scratched by Suzaku.

this, suzaku sword is used by DS magic and acno is immune to magic so yeah obviously suzaku is not scratching acno

 

[Hexbend]

I merely said they follow similar logic. In that, dragons are inherently far superior to humans. Nowhere did I say the scaling is identical. I just said it should be somewhat comparable.
Also, you made the claim that dragon to human transformation is a smaller nerf, compared to buff from human to dragon transformation. Where is the proof of that? I see you giving arguments for your position, but it's all just theories based on what's shown in the series, Both yours and mine, No point asking for proof, cause Mashima gave us none.


The only power level he can sense is MP. In fact, MP is everything someone else can sense from another entity in the series.
By potential I mean what she's capable of. If she had used that MP in dragon form, it's an entirely different story. There is no way Merc could know if she's dragon or human at the moment, all he sense is her MP



Used to be, until Alverez arc



Easily.

Stats in dragon form >> stats in human form, because dragons are an inherently superior species



Yes, and I'm saying the stats is Merc is probably higher.

Merc was < 50%. Lets say 45% for the sake of argument.

I consider dragon to human transformation a nerf to less than 45%. Just basing on the logic that Selene's dragon form is a tier or more above her human form.

I think Aldoron was nerfed to like 15% towards the end, so I consider human Selene to be above him, since I consider the nerf from transforming to human to be not below 15%



I would've considered that possibility if Suzaku was the strongest member of Diabolos. But there is George, who is a tier or more above Suzaku. If Suzaku is at that level, that makes George significantly superior to DGs in dragon form, which doesn't make sense from the narrative POV.

I predict George to be full power DG level (maybe he's Viernes), and black knights a tier or more below him,



Sure, ok. If you're saying human to dragon is a superior transformation, because it includes change in MP as well. I see where you're coming from.
Even then, the boost to MP for humans in dragon force, pales in comparison to change in stats. The dramatic change in stats is what makes DF so dangerous.

All I'm saying is difference in stats is still vast though, even keeping MP constant.
Dragon form's physical strength, speed, durability etc are far superior to human form's. Meaning, dragon Selene >> human Selene.
If you think the gap isn't as big as a human in dragon form, that's fine too. But the gap is still large enough to make dragon form of DG a different tier from human form of DG,

The lack of evidence is my evidence and the fact that DGs aren't DS.

Why would her MP be different if she used it in her dragon form? Are you implying she can't use all her MP in her human form or something?

Until Alverez? We've had mages like these since forever, their just rare.

That's for dragon slayers again, you gotta stop comparing them. One is going dragon as DF, the other is literally just turning off transformation magic.

Again, Merc was stated to be below half of his power. Makes no sense that 100% Human Selene would be weaker than two vastly nerfed DGs. You would also have to prove the DGs human forms are that weaker.

Also 15%? You got to stop making numbers up. GS Aldo himself said he wasn't that much weaker.

No, I'm not saying it's a superior transformation because a change in MP. I'm saying for Dragons, it's better because of the physical changes.
Even that's not true as Natsu always gets a huge MP boost in DF and is when he usually lets off his strongest attacks.

And that is where I'm saying your highly exaggerating the gap. Speed shouldn't even increase in dragon form, except for the ability of flight. Again your basing this off the gap that DS get when going full DF like Acno and Irene, which isn't even close to comparable.

 

[grey matter]

The lack of evidence is my evidence and the fact that DGs aren't DS.

Why would her MP be different if she used it in her dragon form? Are you implying she can't use all her MP in her human form or something?

Until Alverez? We've had mages like these since forever, their just rare.

That's for dragon slayers again, you gotta stop comparing them. One is going dragon as DF, the other is literally just turning off transformation magic.

Again, Merc was stated to be below half of his power. Makes no sense that 100% Human Selene would be weaker than two vastly nerfed DGs. You would also have to prove the DGs human forms are that weaker.

Also 15%? You got to stop making numbers up. GS Aldo himself said he wasn't that much weaker.

No, I'm not saying it's a superior transformation because a change in MP. I'm saying for Dragons, it's better because of the physical changes.
Even that's not true as Natsu always gets a huge MP boost in DF and is when he usually lets off his strongest attacks.

And that is where I'm saying your highly exaggerating the gap. Speed shouldn't even increase in dragon form, except for the ability of flight. Again your basing this off the gap that DS get when going full DF like Acno and Irene, which isn't even close to comparable.

Yea, there is no evidence to your claim that DGs turning humans is a weaker nerf than humans turning dragon. It could be reverse for all we know. Or even the percentage of nerf. Human Selene could be 20% her stats in dragon form, for all we know. Or maybe 50%. Anything. There is no proof for any of that, all we can do is theorize

100% human Selene may or maynot be above nerfed DGs in their dragon form. We don't know. All we know is her MP is > the others
I cannot prove anything, just like you also cannot. There is no "proof", Mashima gave us none, in all likeliness this issue didn't even cross his mind. Why is why we are having this discussion. I can just give my arguments and logic behind them, whether you buy it or not is upto you.

Nah, until Alverez it was rare. In Alverez, we had plenty of cases where high MP didn't translate into high stats.

Yea, and that transformation magic is nerfing their stats. They are losing scales, physical strength, speed and durability with that transformation.

Yea, and I don't see Merc's nerf being enough to be above Selene nerfing heself by going to human form

Sure it's a made up number, I think it's reasonable based on how much he got nerfed from each seed going down, on topo of him waking up nerfed to begin with. No point in me trying to justify it since you'd just say I'm making numbers, which is fine, we all try to somehow make sense of what Mashima is doing.

Yeah it is better because of physical changes, i.e change in all stats except MP. So what's the issue here? Their physical stats in dragon form >> their physical stats in human form, also their spells become stronger in that state (like roars becoming much larger, spells in general having higher AOE, Eileen getting to use master enchant etc)

Speed shouldn't increase because? We saw parent dragons traverse the entire continent multiple times within a minute or so. No human can reach anywhere close to that speed. And within that timeframe, they destroyed 10000 faces. 2500 faces per dragon, meaning they nuked 2500 times throughout the continent in that time period, so it wasn't merely travel speed either, it also a high combat speed feat.
Acno and Eileen have become full on dragons. Their "natural state" is a dragon. In fact Eileen couldn't revert back for 300+ years until Zeref found her and forcibly gave her a means to do so.
Whatever boost Acno and Eileen gets from going to dragon form, it should be comparable to DGs going from human form to dragon form. Because Acno and Eileen are both dragons in their "natural state". Even though they weren't born dragons.

 

[Hexbend]

Yea, there is no evidence to your claim that DGs turning humans is a weaker nerf than humans turning dragon. It could be reverse for all we know. Or even the percentage of nerf. Human Selene could be 20% her stats in dragon form, for all we know. Or maybe 50%. Anything. There is no proof for any of that, all we can do is theorize

100% human Selene may or maynot be above nerfed DGs in their dragon form. We don't know. All we know is her MP is > the others
I cannot prove anything, just like you also cannot. There is no "proof", Mashima gave us none, in all likeliness this issue didn't even cross his mind. Why is why we are having this discussion. I can just give my arguments and logic behind them, whether you buy it or not is upto you.

Nah, until Alverez it was rare. In Alverez, we had plenty of cases where high MP didn't translate into high stats.

Yea, and that transformation magic is nerfing their stats. They are losing scales, physical strength, speed and durability with that transformation.

Yea, and I don't see Merc's nerf being enough to be above Selene nerfing heself by going to human form

Sure it's a made up number, I think it's reasonable based on how much he got nerfed from each seed going down, on topo of him waking up nerfed to begin with. No point in me trying to justify it since you'd just say I'm making numbers, which is fine, we all try to somehow make sense of what Mashima is doing.

Yeah it is better because of physical changes, i.e change in all stats except MP. So what's the issue here? Their physical stats in dragon form >> their physical stats in human form, also their spells become stronger in that state (like roars becoming much larger, spells in general having higher AOE, Eileen getting to use master enchant etc)

Speed shouldn't increase because? We saw parent dragons traverse the entire continent multiple times within a minute or so. No human can reach anywhere close to that speed. And within that timeframe, they destroyed 10000 faces. 2500 faces per dragon, meaning they nuked 2500 times throughout the continent in that time period, so it wasn't merely travel speed either, it also a high combat speed feat.
Acno and Eileen have become full on dragons. Their "natural state" is a dragon. In fact Eileen couldn't revert back for 300+ years until Zeref found her and forcibly gave her a means to do so.
Whatever boost Acno and Eileen gets from going to dragon form, it should be comparable to DGs going from human form to dragon form. Because Acno and Eileen are both dragons in their "natural state". Even though they weren't born dragons.

I'm guessing you don't understand that the lack of evidence of your claim hurts you more than me.

Because it's clear what the intentions are...your just not trying to concede because you know your wrong. With the FP of a DG, Selene even in human form should be leaps and bounds above two nerfed DGs. That is made clear to us by Merc himself, your trying to force your own head canon by saying he meant her potential.

Why would they lose speed in human form (except flight)? MP stays the same, so Human Selene would still hold a considerable advantage over two nerfed DGs dragons or not.

Then don't bring up random numbers. It's just pointless and confusing.

The issue here is that both DGs were nerfed...so their physical stats would also go down as seen with Aldo & Merc. Why would the dragons spells get stronger with the same MP? They aren't dragon slayers who get an increase in MP from DF.

No human can reach that speed in travel maybe (except jellal), but most certainly not in combat and reaction speed. We know most characters in FT can easily react to the parent dragons and Irene's dues sema is already a better speed feat. Even GmG Natsu can react to dragons flying at him.

And there is where you have it all wrong....Acno and Irene are dragon slayers, they get boost from turning into dragons because that's basically their DF. Even Zeref makes it a point to tell Natsu, during their fight. That the power of turning into a dragon like Acno would be better than Natsu's DF.

DGs aren't DS, you keep trying to compare them. When it's clear they aren't, your lack of evidence is proof enough.

 

[Ramen]

Can anyone where explain why Minvera doesn't take top 4 spot?

She can literally cheese out the entire battle royal

I agree.

Suzaku
Gajeel
Hakune
Minerva

are my top 4

 

[Vis]

Can anyone where explain why Minvera doesn't take top 4 spot?

She can literally cheese out the entire battle royal

Wouldn’t that essentially BFR-ing herself if she removes herself from the battlefield? I’m assuming the battlefield is literally just one stage here, and not one entire town or whatnot where she’d be able to hide.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 13, 2021 ---

My top 4 are still the same:
Suzaku, Madmole, Gajeel and Hakune.

 

[grey matter]

Wouldn’t that essentially BFR-ing herself if she removes herself from the battlefield? I’m assuming the battlefield is literally just one stage here, and not one entire town or whatnot where she’d be able to hide.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2021, Original Post Date: Aug 13, 2021 ---

My top 4 are still the same:
Suzaku, Madmole, Gajeel and Hakune.

Is it against rules to do so? If yes, I agree with you

She can just stay out until Suzaku finishes off everyone, and then pop out to get herself rekt as well lol. She will be the last to go down to Suzaku, unless he decides to go after her at the very beginning before she moves herself to another dimension

 

[Jko]

Hakune would shut down her MP as soon as the battle starts lol

 

[Vis]

Is it against rules to do so? If yes, I agree with you

She can just stay out until Suzaku finishes off everyone, and then pop out to get herself rekt as well lol. She will be the last to go down to Suzaku, unless he decides to go after her at the very beginning before she moves herself to another dimension

It’s generally restricted to remove yourself from the battlefield, yes.

 

[grey matter]

It’s generally restricted to remove yourself from the battlefield, yes.

Just checked rules. It says BFR doesn't count as victory. I assume the rule is talking about x removing y from battle. So x removing x from battle field doesn't count as a loss either?

@Kiki
Can you clarify this? Is Minerva allowed to hide herself in another dimension until there is only one other opponent that remains?

 

[Kiki]

Just checked rules. It says BFR doesn't count as victory. I assume the rule is talking about x removing y from battle. So x removing x from battle field doesn't count as a loss either?

@Kiki
Can you clarify this? Is Minerva allowed to hide herself in another dimension until there is only one other opponent that remains?

it's allowed

 

[Axiomus]

The difference between dragon and human forms doesn't change a God Dragon's Mp levels, but it's substantial in terms of their physicals. Full Dragon > Partial Dragonization > Human. So turning into a dragon is more substantial than most cases of DF, with Dragon Eaters being an exception.

While becoming a dragon doesn't directly increase their magical power, I would argue that it improves the magic they can use in other ways. Irene can only use Master enchant by tapping into the wisdom of a sage dragon. I'm inclined to believe that sage dragons simply have more intelligent brains. A dragon like Ignia can use flames without having to worry about burning themselves like a human, such as Natsu would. Having a tougher body can allow for the use of stronger attacks.

Either way, what Suzaku showed in the latest chapter is bounds and leaps above anything we've seen thus far. Only what DF Natsu showed against Aldoron is near the same ballpark, and even then. There's a sizeable speed gap between Suzaku and Natsu, and Selene straight up scales above Aldoron.