Semifinal - Jellal Fernandes vs Laxus Dreyar | Page 19 | MangaHelpers



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Semifinal Jellal Fernandes vs Laxus Dreyar

Which fighter advances?

  • Jellal Fernandes

    Votes: 44 55.0%
  • Laxus Dreyar

    Votes: 36 45.0%

  • Total voters
    80
  • Poll closed .
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Jko

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Yeah, i have know idea why you're underrating Laxus non nuclear lightning bolts when those are still as potent as his nukes. His non nuclear lightning bolt was able to stop Ajeel's entire Sand Tsunami...
 

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How is Jellal even supposed to cast mirror water at lightning speed? Laxus raises his hand and lands an instantaneous lightning nuke, there is no way in hell Jellal gets mirror water up in time.

I pretty much agree with everything else.
Three Layered Magic Circle: Mirror Water has an extremely low casting time. Lower than any of Laxus' spells. The only problem with utilizing this spell is that your reaction time has to be good which Jellal has shown. He first casted the spell while Jura's attack was incoming. That means it took less than one second. Same with Mystogan. The laser beam from the Dorma Anim was already coming when Mystogan first casted the spell. Look at how close the attacks were, it took less than one panel to cast the spell.

Jellal



Mystogan



The majority of Laxus' attacks are not lightning speed. Look at Lightning Dragon's Roar, Lightning Dragon's Heavenward Halberd, etc.

By the way, you're leaving out some something really important. His nukes needs time to cast. Meaning the moment Jellal sees Laxus charge up an attack, he'll be able to expect it and cast Three Layered Magic Circle: Mirror Water. You can see in the panel that even Ajeel expected it.


I don't see Laxus beating Jellal here.

Well I guess that's something to consider when it comes to defensive spell, just how quick can they be activated? I think with the nuke, there's also the 360 degree factor, as the AoE is too big. There's also the possibility that something intangible like lightning might not get diverted by mirror water, though I'm willing to say mirror water could work on it.

With Laxus roar I'm not sure on it yet. I assume it's got similar power like Natsu's, though the AoE might be different depending on the shape.
Actually, thanks for bringing that up. I forgot to mention that AoE doesn't matter against Three Layered Magic Circle: Mirror Water. The attack was designed to absorb magic attacks and reflect it back. It's shown better in the anime.


Here is a better image without the animation.


You can see that the laser beam is bigger than the circles themselves. But it is all absorbed into one point. Think of it like a magnet working on a pile of metallic powder.
 
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Woodenstool

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First of all, the attacks that Jellal used against Jura like Meteor and Grand Chariot happened in the beginning of the fight. In a way, they were testing each other's power. And if he knew Jura was that strong, why would he use an attack that wouldn't be able to match Jura's defense? Seeing that even Jura was nervous and the confidence Jellal had, it's not that far-fetched to say that Sema would have affected him. In fact, it was proven later that Laxus' attack had an effect on Jura and was able to injure him. So, logically, an attack like Sema from Jellal would have caused some damage. Unless you want to tell me that Laxus > Jellal in GMG?



Not really. This comparison is very valid. I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Holding back has nothing to do with your best or worst spell. You can hold back on one of your strongest spells if you really want to. The only reason why Natsu wasn't fired up was because he was beating up fodders. Meanwhile, Jellal used one of his best spells because he was going up against all of Oración Seis (who are individually many times stronger than the fodders).

This is what I'm saying. Natsu destroyed them with an intent to win, not kill (giving them a chance). Jellal fought Oración Seis with an intent to beat them into submission (giving them a chance). In the end, both the fodders and Oración Seis survived only because they were both given chances to live.

Anyways, you know when someone is holding back. It wouldn't make sense for Jellal to tell Meredy he wanted to give them a chance, yet used Sema with the intent to go all out and kill. I don't need to explain the obvious anymore than I have.



I honestly don't see why this has become a discussion either. I agreed with another user that Laxus has more plot armor than most characters because he is a mage of FT which is true. You cannot deny that because its a fact thatHiro Mashima cares more for his main characters than side characters. Both Gildarts and Laxus have their fair share of plot armor because they a part of Fairy Tail. But who is more important to the story? Definitely Laxus. So who has more plot armor? Laxus...

No. Gildarts wouldn't have Red Empyrean or anything similar to that because Hiro Mashima only gives plot armor to characters that are relevant to the plot. We already saw Gildarts crippled by Acnologia. No plot armor there.



Yeah, Spriggans have more MP based on hype. I don't disagree with that. But that doesn't mean Laxus and Jellal lag far behind Spriggans MP. They might have similar MP levels even though they aren't exactly the same.



One's action can portray their intelligence. If you see a random guy running down the street with no clothes and yelling something, you probably wouldn't think his mind is working properly. Not saying that the guy is dumb but he probably isn't what you would consider smart. Besides, I think it was portrayed that Wahl is abnormal given Dimaria's words.

Yeah, but lightning is not that fast when we compare to Jellal's Meteor. They are more or less comparable. The only speed feat that would beat them is like Mest's teleport.



Three Layered Magic Circle: Mirror Water may not help against a nuke but it would definitely block an Lightning Dragon's Roar, Halberd of the Raging Bolt, and physical attacks infused with magic. So I still think it would be relevant when considering Jellal's defense.

Actually, the attack does have feats of blocking and reflecting intangible attacks. Mystogan proves this.



I don't mind Laxus having Thunder Palace but it is quite useless. Using your argument from earlier, since Pre-Timeskip Erza tanked it while getting hit by many of them at once, then it shouldn't be that strong now. The only difference here is that Laxus wasn't holding back here because the amount of damage caused by each lacrima is fixed.
Plot protected the spriggan 12, that attack was enough to wipe out Dimaria, Bradman, Walh, and the other Spriggan(forgot his name) because they were all near.

Plot made Laxus sick so the fight would be fair. If Hiro didn't do those things, Fairy tail would've won the war.

Laxus kills every spriggan but Irene, August, and Invel.

Natsu, Gajeel, Laxus, Third origin Wendy(she didn't activate it yet), Mira, Erza vs those 3. It's pretty obvious who's gonna win.
 

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Power of ToH DF Natsu is at least debatable. Natsu ate etherion, witch increased his powers to unknown lvl. DF is stated to be dragon slayers "final stage" and it might be that even after training DF will be the same as it is already final stage (just theory). Another thing is DF power might be different due to source (trigger) of DF. We even dont know when Natsu was stronger: when he ate etherion, when he ate flame of rebuke or when he was in natural DF. Tartaros Natsu with natural DF impressed me less then ToH DF Natsu. Natural DF Sting and Rouge were not so impressive too. If DF is depend on source (trigger) or have constant power as final stage then punches from ToH DF Natsu could be above Wahl punches. It is just speculation.
 
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Power of ToH DF Natsu is at least debatable. Natsu ate etherion, witch increased his powers to unknown lvl. DF is stated to be dragon slayers "final stage" and it might be that even after training DF will be the same as it is already final stage (just theory). Another thing is DF power might be different due to source (trigger) of DF. We even dont know when Natsu was stronger: when he ate etherion, when he ate flame of rebuke or when he was in natural DF. Tartaros Natsu with natural DF impressed me less then ToH DF Natsu. Natural DF Sting and Rouge were not so impressive too. If DF is depend on source (trigger) or have constant power as final stage then punches from ToH DF Natsu could be above Wahl punches. It is just speculation.
That is quite questionable though. If we are consistant, DF is portrayed to always provide the same power boost multiplier, which is widely argued to be 3x. Either triggered by an external factor like etherion, or triggered by will, it should provide the same multiplier to your base power.

It's not like I can prove that theory, but it makes a lot of sense if you think about it. ToH DF Natsu managed to defeat Jellal. They were on a similar tier. Not long after, when his base power should be only slightly superior to his base self in ToH, O6 DF Natsu beat Zero. Zero should be Makarov level, slightly above ToH Jellal. Then, emotion-triggered DF Natsu, or Tartaros DF Natsu, managed to successfuly hurt Mard Geer, although he was only capable of landing one hit before his DF ran out. Mard Geer should be superior to Makarov.

It follows a consistant pattern, in which ToH Jellal > Zero >> Mard Geer / ToH Natsu > O6 Natsu >> Tartaros Natsu

ToH base Natsu was utter fodder. ToH DF Natsu was in the same league as ToH Jellal, who was low WS tier. Nowadays, being WS tier (particularly low WS tier) is being fodder.

Spriggan 12 >>>>> GoI >> WS
 

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Power of ToH DF Natsu is at least debatable. Natsu ate etherion, witch increased his powers to unknown lvl. DF is stated to be dragon slayers "final stage" and it might be that even after training DF will be the same as it is already final stage (just theory). Another thing is DF power might be different due to source (trigger) of DF. We even dont know when Natsu was stronger: when he ate etherion, when he ate flame of rebuke or when he was in natural DF. Tartaros Natsu with natural DF impressed me less then ToH DF Natsu. Natural DF Sting and Rouge were not so impressive too. If DF is depend on source (trigger) or have constant power as final stage then punches from ToH DF Natsu could be above Wahl punches. It is just speculation.
Natsu at Tatarus was his strongest dragon force. It's pretty obvious, when you train you grow stronger.
 

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I do not have prove of my theory either yet I disegree that Jellal was low WS tier. His projection with separated power was WS tier so ToH Jellal must be at least high WS tier.
 

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Are you suggesting the attacks that Laxus tanked is more powerful than the attack TOH DF Natsu used against Jellal? Show proof. First off Laxus didn't tank majority of Whal attacks besides the lightning. Which clearly would do no damage to him.


Wow a punch.

\

Dodged this attack.


Tanked this. I will give it to him.



IDK if we can use this feats as he was seriously injured by these attacks but then Whal used a lightning attack in which case Laxus absorbed it and increased his power. It would be like when Natsu was fighting Zero and he could barely move then Jellal giving him fire to increase/restore his energy. Or like Natsu vs Gajeel. So take it how you will, IDC.

Also the Nuke Laxus used against Azir wasn't casual as if it was casual then he would have been dropping Nukes like that during his battle with Whal. Also we didn't see him when he first started the nuke we only saw afterwards.



None of these attacks compare to:


If it was casual he would have been dropping nukes like that during his fight with Whal.
The insane AoE would have taken out Erza and Kagura and perhaps some allies in the nearby battlefield, you don't drop those when your friends are nearby. As I said before, there is something called attack potency.

ToH DF Natsu is fodder compared to the power levels now, there is no way in hell he even holds a candle to any of the GoI, let alone the Spriggan 12. So Jellal tanking ToH DF Natsu is no where near as impressive as Laxus tanking those hits from Wahl and Laxus did that while half-dead, Jellal was taken out by the casual Spriggan blast.
Laxus >>> Jellal in durability.
 

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Second Origin Natsu would crap on ToH DF Natsu heck Tenrou Natsu would beat him. Using ToH DF Natsu's punch as a durability feat is laughable to say the least.
 

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I do not have prove of my theory either yet I disegree that Jellal was low WS tier. His projection with separated power was WS tier so ToH Jellal must be at least high WS tier.
He was ranked 7th or below, since we know for a fact Makarov was 5th and José was 6th. He was even below José, against whom Erza was capable of putting a fight (and Erza had been severely damaged by Jupiter).

The only WS members with high WS tier status we know of are Makarov, GMG Jura and GMG Jellal.

So, ToH Jellal was mid WS tier at best, around José Porla level or slightly weaker. It was very early in the manga after all, power scales were still on a completely different scale. Back then, characters like Makarov or Jellal were top notch.

As many users claim, ToH DF Natsu (ToH Jellal for that matter) is well below Second Origin base Natsu and I guess it'd even be debatable if he could beat Tenrou base Natsu. Progression is huge in this manga. Every week counts.
 

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ToH base Natsu was utter fodder. ToH DF Natsu was in the same league as ToH Jellal, who was low WS tier. Nowadays, being WS tier (particularly low WS tier) is being fodder.

Spriggan 12 >>>>> GoI >> WS
Where did you get ToH Jellal being low WS tier? His rank was never stated nor even hinted at in the least. Not to mention he achieved WS status with a mere thought projection which was only 50% of his power iirc. If I had to take a guess, I'd say he was ranked 7 or 8, but the possibility stretches anywhere from 5-10
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
It saddens me that we only got mere glimpses of Mystogan's badassery :(
 

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Where did you get ToH Jellal being low WS tier? His rank was never stated nor even hinted at in the least. Not to mention he achieved WS status with a mere thought projection which was only 50% of his power iirc. If I had to take a guess, I'd say he was ranked 7 or 8, but the possibility stretches anywhere from 5-10
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
It saddens me that we only got mere glimpses of Mystogan's badassery :(
While you have a point, we know Jellal was ranked at least 7th, or below in that list, considering the GoI were the first four, Makarov was fifth and José was sixth.

We also know for a fact that Makarov is superior to José, who ought to be superior to Jellal by that token, so Makarov belongs in a different league than ToH Jellal. It makes sense since Makarov was already at his peak while Jellal could still improve a lot and outclass Makarov, as he did after the Tenrou timeskip, and yet again after this year timeskip. It also makes sense if you consider Makarov literally fodderized José and O6 Jura mentioned the difference between Makarov and himself was colossal. Actually Jura was only capable of overflowing that difference after 7 years training, and not even then do we know if he actually surpassed Makarov, since Makarov had been removed from the WS list after his apparent death, and his place had been taken by Jura.

How he achieved WS is irrelevant; all we know is they're ranked by their power, which makes it logical ToH Jellal was low to mid tier WS.
 

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It wasn't immediately for the last time. I can tell you didn't even read my post. Jellal was constantly being hit in the back all the way down until the end. Of course he wouldn't have time to escape. He was literally drowning. To make it even worse, he was holding Kagura so he couldn't use his arms to swim. Imagine if you are swimming in the ocean and someone with a lot of weight is sitting on top of you. What can you do but sink?
Jellal wasn't continuously getting hit? What part of your ass did you pull that out from? Jellal wasn't getting his continuously and he never let go of Kagura because he passed out immediately.



How can you get out of that situation when you're constantly being affected by the attack? Yes, he was starting to drown. And yes, he did drown. Stop denying it. If Wendy was there and healed Jellal after Kagura got him out of the water, then you'd have a point. The fact that Kagura got the water out of his lungs and he stood up completely unharmed and unfazed means that he took no damage (little damage if you want to exaggerate).
He wasn't continuously getting hit, where did you that from? Again you keep saying unharmed like I haven't said for the 100th time you don't need visible injuries on your body to be knocked out.

He was still being hit underwater. You can see in the panel that the attack only dissipated after they were already very deep. At that point, is when he drowned. And yes, that is when Kagura was able to escape from his grip.
The move never continuously hit him, all I saw in that panel was the impact from Jellal and Kagura hitting the water, you can't even make out where Jellal and Kagura are in that exact panel.


Not when an attack hits your back. Like I said, you don't need visible injuries but you still need some sort of indication.
The fact he got knocked out immediately was the proof.

If you're using it as an excuse to explain Laxus' loss, then yes, I agree.
It's not an excuse, you have nothing else to say so you're writing off it as an excuse instead of you saying 'I was wrong' :lmao

Super effective? Aria didn't even use wind magic. He was absorbing the magic power out of Natsu the same way he did to Makarov.
He was using wind magic if Aria was using his 'absorption' Natsu would have ended up like Makarov, nice try.

So? You're telling me there was a chance of Natsu losing against Gajeel as a main character? No way. Hiro Mashima would make Natsu the superior dragon slayer regardless.
So now instead of actually formulating a decent response you're saying HIRO WOULDN'T LET HIM LOSE. None of my posts even implied me saying Gajeel was the superior DS.

But with difficulty. Gray had difficulty with Rufus. Erza had difficulty with Minerva. And Natsu didn't one-shot Sting and Rogue like Jura did to Orga. You are still not giving me sufficient proof.
Gray had difficulty with Rufus due to the nature of his magic, as for Erza and Minerva why did you even bring her up I said she was the only one on Natsu and co's level. Natsu didn't one shot Sting and Rouge because he wasn't serious until the end, as soon as Natsu and Gajeel got serious they proved they were wayyy ahead of Sting and Rouge, heck in the final day Gajeel was easily tossing around Rouge. I'm not giving proof? JURA ONE SHOTTED HIM IN CANON, I DON'T HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING.

I never said Laxus and Orga were on par. I said that Laxus is not strong enough to the point he can one-shot him with just a mere chop to the head. A serious Laxus would beat Orga handily, I agree. Note that serious meaning not a chop to the head...

One, a serious Laxus is way above Orga, two Orga himself is a God Slayer with the same element as Laxus, he was Laxus' worst matchup in the games. And no Laxus doesn't need to be able to one chop Orga because Orga is better at barehand fighting than Laxus, Jura without any magic around his hand was clashing with Laxus.

Why was Orga a gag scene?
  1. To quickly move on to Jura vs Laxus
  2. To hype Jura
  3. Orga had the 3rd highest attack power against the MPF while Jura had the 2nd highest attack power (so they aren't tiers apart)
1. Quickly wanting to move the plot on doesn't make it a gag scene.
2. Hyping Jura doesn't make it a gag scene either.
3. Just because Orga had the 3rd highest right behind Jura doesn't mean shit, or did you forget Jura's score was over twice the amount of Orga's. So yes they were tiers apart, heck Orga himself sweats after seeing Jura's score.

Read my earlier post because I'm not going to repeat myself. He didn't "already" save her from the blast. They were still taking damage by the blast so he couldn't let go of Kagura or she would get hit. She only escaped when they were too deep and Jellal drowned so he couldn't resist anymore.
I don't need to repeat myself, they weren't taking continuous damage.


No. When the surprise attack was coming, Jellal, Erza, and Kagura were all standing still. Jellal had less than a second to react.


Jellal himself wasn't surprised hence why Kagura is the only one with an exclamation point.

I don't know why you're still arguing. Erza figured that she could fuse with Etherion and she knew nothing about the tower or the R-System. Just give it up. Jellal and Erza are just smart that they know the properties and mechanics behind Etherion lacrimas.

Jellal had half fused her body beforehand, she knew she could do it because she almost full merged with it. I don't need to give up anything, Jellal worked on it for 8 years and you think he wouldn't know about that :lmao.
 

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Actually, thanks for bringing that up. I forgot to mention that AoE doesn't matter against Three Layered Magic Circle: Mirror Water. The attack was designed to absorb magic attacks and reflect it back. It's shown better in the anime.
That's a good point, though there's certainly a difference in AoE there. I mean it's certainly possible that if Mirror Water is actually powerful enough, that it could defend against come of a nuke. But because of the AoE it's likely not reflecting all of it. Of course, the nuke (like Sema) has 2 AoE's... but the first smaller one is probably going to quite powerful so Mirror Water will need to be strong like one of August's barriers.

I also withdraw the possibility that it couldn't work on lightning after seeing that.

That said the main point of conjecture will come through Jellal using staves in a fight, and if it's a strong enough spell when Jellal uses it.
 

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Jellal wasn't continuously getting hit? What part of your ass did you pull that out from? Jellal wasn't getting his continuously and he never let go of Kagura because he passed out immediately.
Really? In case your didn't know, when you pass out, your muscles start relaxing. In other words, it's quite the opposite. He would've let go.

He wasn't continuously getting hit, where did you that from? Again you keep saying unharmed like I haven't said for the 100th time you don't need visible injuries on your body to be knocked out.
And you keep saying he was harmed without any sort of indication to believe so. The burden of proof is on you. I already gave my reasons.

The move never continuously hit him, all I saw in that panel was the impact from Jellal and Kagura hitting the water, you can't even make out where Jellal and Kagura are in that exact panel.
Yeah, you can... Right here.


The fact he got knocked out immediately was the proof.
Still haven't seen the evidence to believe so.

He was using wind magic if Aria was using his 'absorption' Natsu would have ended up like Makarov, nice try.
Here's the difference though. Makarov was caught by surprise which led to his downfall. Natsu, on the other hand, had a one-on-one fight and lost because he couldn't keep up. Aria was faster.

So now instead of actually formulating a decent response you're saying HIRO WOULDN'T LET HIM LOSE. None of my posts even implied me saying Gajeel was the superior DS.
It's true. Natsu and Gajeel were always equal. They were even portrayed as equals when fighting Laxus. Natsu only surpassed Gajeel in the current timeskip...

Gray had difficulty with Rufus due to the nature of his magic, as for Erza and Minerva why did you even bring her up I said she was the only one on Natsu and co's level. Natsu didn't one shot Sting and Rouge because he wasn't serious until the end, as soon as Natsu and Gajeel got serious they proved they were wayyy ahead of Sting and Rouge, heck in the final day Gajeel was easily tossing around Rouge. I'm not giving proof? JURA ONE SHOTTED HIM IN CANON, I DON'T HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING.
No, Gray even took damage from Rufus. That's more than just the "nature of his magic". Erza was stronger than Natsu and Gray back in the GMG. How can Minerva be on both of their levels. She can be in the same tier but that's it. Natsu only surpassed Gray after the Tartaros Arc. As for Gajeel, he couldn't beat Rogue easily. He was forced to go Iron Shadow Dragon Mode. Natsu is the same way. He couldn't beat Sting + Rogue with ease.

I never denied that Jura one-shotted him. You just refuse to believe it was a gag because your original statement doesn't correspond with what is being said and shown.

One, a serious Laxus is way above Orga, two Orga himself is a God Slayer with the same element as Laxus, he was Laxus' worst matchup in the games. And no Laxus doesn't need to be able to one chop Orga because Orga is better at barehand fighting than Laxus, Jura without any magic around his hand was clashing with Laxus.
If Laxus is truly that much stronger than Orga (I don't deny that), the it doesn't matter if Orga is a God Slayer. Note your words again, "...serious Laxus...". That means Laxus wouldn't be able to stomp him with just his bare hands. Although, if Laxus uses his strongest attack, then sure he can.

1. Quickly wanting to move the plot on doesn't make it a gag scene.
2. Hyping Jura doesn't make it a gag scene either.
3. Just because Orga had the 3rd highest right behind Jura doesn't mean shit, or did you forget Jura's score was over twice the amount of Orga's. So yes they were tiers apart, heck Orga himself sweats after seeing Jura's score.
You still don't seem to understand. And you're still twisting my words... It only works one way, not the reverse.

Your Words
  1. Quickly wanting to move the plot on doesn't make it a gag scene.
  2. Hyping Jura doesn't make it a gag scene either.
  3. Just because Orga had the 3rd highest right behind Jura doesn't mean shit, or did you forget Jura's score was over twice the amount of Orga's. So yes they were tiers apart, heck Orga himself sweats after seeing Jura's score.
My Words
  1. The gag scene is a quick and comedic way of ending the fight (Making the plot move forward).
  2. The gag scene is a way of exaggerating the difference in power (Hyping Jura).
  3. So Jura is approximately 2x more powerful compared to Orga. That doesn't make them tiers apart. Mard Geer who is 2x stronger can't defeat Kyōka with just a chop to the head...
Jellal himself wasn't surprised hence why Kagura is the only one with an exclamation point.
They both were surprised... Kagura had the "exclamation point" because the attack was coming towards her. Do you think Jellal saw the attack coming from miles away? Does he have clairvoyance? No. It was a surprise to all three of them. Unless you want to give Jellal a new ability in this tournament (the power to perceive attacks)?
 

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That's a good point, though there's certainly a difference in AoE there. I mean it's certainly possible that if Mirror Water is actually powerful enough, that it could defend against come of a nuke. But because of the AoE it's likely not reflecting all of it. Of course, the nuke (like Sema) has 2 AoE's... but the first smaller one is probably going to quite powerful so Mirror Water will need to be strong like one of August's barriers.

I also withdraw the possibility that it couldn't work on lightning after seeing that.

That said the main point of conjecture will come through Jellal using staves in a fight, and if it's a strong enough spell when Jellal uses it.
I don't even know why the mirror water argument is being used when it can't defend against an instantaneous nuke, whoever is trying use the argument is arguing that Jellal can move his hands and put up the spell at lightning speed which isn't possible.
 

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I don't even know why the mirror water argument is being used when it can't defend against an instantaneous nuke, whoever is trying use the argument is arguing that Jellal can move his hands and put up the spell at lightning speed which isn't possible.
I don't think the nuke is instant, he basically dropped it on Ajeel. A lightning bolt would be too quick imo, and it might be too strong anyway (enough to stop Sands of Death).

Edit: I think Mirror water is basically irrelevant. It's my main argument against the concept of having more spells vs having few. It shouldn't be much of a thing in a fight like this, because the only spells that should matter are the stronger ones. For Jellal it really should come down to HB magic, and maybe Abyss Break with reasonable hype.
 
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