Semifinal Jellal Fernandes vs Laxus Dreyar

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Jellal one shotted Neinhart, Laxus could've killed Ajeel.

Defeating and killing are two different feats. Laxus wins because he casually used an unnamed spell to kill a spriggan 12, whereas Jellal used GC.

Laxus wins high diff.

We don't know if Jellal was actually able to kill Neinhart or not. He could be dead or taken as prisoner.

As for Ajeel, there is no proof to claim that Laxus could kill him. August hinted that Ajeel would be in serious trouble but that doesn't necessarily equate to death. Ajeel, on the other hand, denied it. Could it be that he is arrogant? Maybe. But what if this time, he was actually confident he could take it? There's no telling.

It's true Jellal used Grand Chariot to defeat Neinhart. But keep in mind that Grand Chariot is not that high level of a spell. It is casual compared to ones like Sema, Abyss Break, and Altairis. Grand Chariot looked like a high-level spell only because Jellal massively improved in attack power.

Meanwhile, Laxus used Red Lightning (an attack at didn't make sense) at full power + PoF. That is clearly trying a lot more than Jellal.

I honestly don't even see why defeating or killing a Spriggan matters though. The rules state that the winner can be determined by merely incapacitating your opponent. It doesn't need to result in a death.

Tournament Rules

2. Determining the Winner
The winner is decided by the contestant that manages to beat his/her opponent in the match. It does not necessarily have to be by killing, as long as the opponent is incapacitated in a decisive way or knocked out. That is, a winner emerges once the opponent is unable to continue fighting.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Signs of being unconscious? Oh, you mean when he already drowned? Yeah...

You don't drown immediately if Jellal was conscious he would have swum to the surface.

So what do you do when you drown? Stay awake and float around?

You would be conscious and would try and get out of that situation, the SECOND you start drowning you don't pass out.

It wasn't immediate. Jellal drowned during the panel that shows him and Kagura sinking. Look at the context.

Spoiler

It was immediate, Jellal does absolutely nothing to stop drowning, in fact, it's implied he gets knocked out immediately seeing how he still grabbing on to Kagura, or you think if Jellal was still awake he'd grab onto Kagura and drag her down with him......

There still seems to be a confusion here. Not sure if anybody here grasped it yet, but you guys do realize that Neinhart's attack continued hitting Jellal underwater, right? In fact, it went very deep until it disappeared. It didn't just stop at the surface where Jellal was free and floating the rest of the way down...

Nothing implies this.

Also when we reading it, it seems like one second. But if you don't just take it at face value, in reality, that was actually quite some time when it showed they were sinking. Having no wounds on him or any indication of being injured just means that he simply wasn't affected.

Literally, Jellal gets hit, Erza shots out Jellal, Erza block Ikaruga and then it shows Kagura and Jellal. Nothing implies the timeframe that all the sequences happened in is more than a few seconds. For the last time, you don't have to have visible injuries to be knocked out.

Says the person who says everyone stomps. You seem to use that word too frequently which means you either don't understand its meaning or trying to exaggerate when clearly it isn't working. You keep repeating DF Gajeel stomps Bradman when he clearly did not. Laxus stomped Natsu and Gajeel when he clearly did not. Natsu stomps Gildarts when he clearly wouldn't... What else?

Nice strawman, DF Gajeel did stomp Bradman unless you want to show me ANY RESISTANCE made by Bradman when Gajeel was in DF. Laxus did indeed stomp Natsu and Gajeel and as for Natsu and Gildarts......Natsu one shotted someone who was pushing Gildarts if you think Gildarts wins or even pushed Natsu at all you need glasses because you clearly can't see the scans correctly.

Fairy Law doesn't take up that much MP as you're implying. That was shown by Makarov. But fine, Laxus made a mistake and that costed his loss.

Fairy Law does take up a lot of MP, hence why it shows Laxus dip in power afterwards and once again Makarov didn't expend as much MP as Laxus as a whole.

No, he wasn't. Natsu couldn't beat him and Erza even intervened to help him out.

Spoiler

There was no timeskip in between so its reasonable to say that Natsu was at the same level of power.

Aria beat Natsu because he was wind magic which is super effect against Fire, Jose himself says Gajeel is stronger than Aria on top of Erza saying Natsu is on her level.

First off, Sabertooth were most definitely comparable to FT. They gave them a good fight and were the last two teams to stay alive.

No, they weren't, Natsu beat two of their top 5 members without using his full power.

Jura was not that much stronger than Orga. Not enough to one-shot him without any magic. He was on par with Laxus and Jellal. None of them are gods like you're treating them. We even saw a scene where Laxus and Orga tested each other's power and that didn't look like it was going to be a one-shot. Unless you think Laxus can chop Orga's head and one-shot him?

JURA WAS THAT MUCH STRONGER. Shown by the manga itself, Orga was never on par with Laxus nor Jellal I don't know which fantasy world you're in. Laxus and Orga clashed, Laxus wasn't serious and flat out says he's unimpressed since Orga was talking so much and that's all he could do. A serious Laxus would beat Orga handily, while I'm waiting for you to show me why you think that Jura one shotting Orga was a gag scene. You are literally going against what the manga said and you're trying to act like I'm the crazy one

When did I disagree with this? Now you're putting words in my mouth. All I said was that it was a gag moment for comedic relief and to speed up the fight so that we see Jura vs Laxus. That's literally all to it.

I put no words in your mouth, stop it, you said Orga was Jura was a gag when it wasn't and the situation was serious.

He wasn't asleep. He drowned. Was it because he couldn't swim? Or was it because he was holding Kagura and couldn't make use of his arms to swim? Kagura was in the same position but different situation. She was being protected by Jellal who released his grip on her when he was no longer moving.. All she had to do was swim back up to the surface.

Oh, so Jellal suddenly can't swim or use magic to get out of the water THE EXCUSES ARE HILLARIOUS. Why on earth would he continue to cover Kagura after he already saved her from the blast? Or are you telling me Jellal was drowning and calmly wait for himself to drown instead of letting go Kagura? For someone who says Jellal is smart, he sure does a lot of dumb stuff.

That's not bracing. I believe that I argued this with another user already. I would much rather take a punch from someone while I see it coming so I can prepare myself, rather than be thrown immediately in front of a punch when least expecting it.

If you had enough time you cab brace yourself, Jellal had enough time.

He still didn't fuse with the tower itself... He fused with the Etherion lacrimas. Otherwise, he would redirect the tower to the sky which doesn't make any sense.

The tower was on HUGE lacrima, why do you think Etherion was everywhere, the tower became infused with the element itself.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

You don't drown immediately if Jellal was conscious he would have swum to the surface.

It wasn't immediately for the last time. I can tell you didn't even read my post. Jellal was constantly being hit in the back all the way down until the end. Of course he wouldn't have time to escape. He was literally drowning. To make it even worse, he was holding Kagura so he couldn't use his arms to swim. Imagine if you are swimming in the ocean and someone with a lot of weight is sitting on top of you. What can you do but sink?

You would be conscious and would try and get out of that situation, the SECOND you start drowning you don't pass out.

How can you get out of that situation when you're constantly being affected by the attack? Yes, he was starting to drown. And yes, he did drown. Stop denying it. If Wendy was there and healed Jellal after Kagura got him out of the water, then you'd have a point. The fact that Kagura got the water out of his lungs and he stood up completely unharmed and unfazed means that he took no damage (little damage if you want to exaggerate).

It was immediate, Jellal does absolutely nothing to stop drowning, in fact, it's implied he gets knocked out immediately seeing how he still grabbing on to Kagura, or you think if Jellal was still awake he'd grab onto Kagura and drag her down with him......

He was still being hit underwater. You can see in the panel that the attack only dissipated after they were already very deep. At that point, is when he drowned. And yes, that is when Kagura was able to escape from his grip.

Literally, Jellal gets hit, Erza shots out Jellal, Erza block Ikaruga and then it shows Kagura and Jellal. Nothing implies the timeframe that all the sequences happened in is more than a few seconds. For the last time, you don't have to have visible injuries to be knocked out.

Not when an attack hits your back. Like I said, you don't need visible injuries but you still need some sort of indication.

Fairy Law does take up a lot of MP, hence why it shows Laxus dip in power afterwards and once again Makarov didn't expend as much MP as Laxus as a whole.

If you're using it as an excuse to explain Laxus' loss, then yes, I agree.

Aria beat Natsu because he was wind magic which is super effect against Fire, Jose himself says Gajeel is stronger than Aria on top of Erza saying Natsu is on her level.

Super effective? Aria didn't even use wind magic. He was absorbing the magic power out of Natsu the same way he did to Makarov.

So? You're telling me there was a chance of Natsu losing against Gajeel as a main character? No way. Hiro Mashima would make Natsu the superior dragon slayer regardless.

No, they weren't, Natsu beat two of their top 5 members without using his full power.

But with difficulty. Gray had difficulty with Rufus. Erza had difficulty with Minerva. And Natsu didn't one-shot Sting and Rogue like Jura did to Orga. You are still not giving me sufficient proof.

JURA WAS THAT MUCH STRONGER. Shown by the manga itself, Orga was never on par with Laxus nor Jellal I don't know which fantasy world you're in. Laxus and Orga clashed, Laxus wasn't serious and flat out says he's unimpressed since Orga was talking so much and that's all he could do. A serious Laxus would beat Orga handily, while I'm waiting for you to show me why you think that Jura one shotting Orga was a gag scene. You are literally going against what the manga said and you're trying to act like I'm the crazy one

I never said Laxus and Orga were on par. I said that Laxus is not strong enough to the point he can one-shot him with just a mere chop to the head. A serious Laxus would beat Orga handily, I agree. Note that serious meaning not a chop to the head...

Why was Orga a gag scene?

1. To quickly move on to Jura vs Laxus
2. To hype Jura
3. Orga had the 3rd highest attack power against the MPF while Jura had the 2nd highest attack power (so they aren't tiers apart)

Oh, so Jellal suddenly can't swim or use magic to get out of the water THE EXCUSES ARE HILLARIOUS. Why on earth would he continue to cover Kagura after he already saved her from the blast? Or are you telling me Jellal was drowning and calmly wait for himself to drown instead of letting go Kagura? For someone who says Jellal is smart, he sure does a lot of dumb stuff.

Read my earlier post because I'm not going to repeat myself. He didn't "already" save her from the blast. They were still taking damage by the blast so he couldn't let go of Kagura or she would get hit. She only escaped when they were too deep and Jellal drowned so he couldn't resist anymore.

If you had enough time you cab brace yourself, Jellal had enough time.

No. When the surprise attack was coming, Jellal, Erza, and Kagura were all standing still. Jellal had less than a second to react.

Spoiler

The tower was on HUGE lacrima, why do you think Etherion was everywhere, the tower became infused with the element itself.

I don't know why you're still arguing. Erza figured that she could fuse with Etherion and she knew nothing about the tower or the R-System. Just give it up. Jellal and Erza are just smart that they know the properties and mechanics behind Etherion lacrimas.

 

[Brandish μ]

That is why I said Jellal could have defeated him without much difficulty. It doesn't matter. Meredy and Ultear stopped Jellal because they knew its power. Even if Jura could tank it, he'd be in serious condition that Jellal could just stomp him afterwards.

Again, I don't see Laxus having better physical feats in the current arc.

It's baseless to assume Jellal could beat Jellal without much difficulty even as a possibility. Why? Because Jura literally defended everything else. Sema on the other hand has the feats of taking out OS members who were injured to begin with. You're clearly giving Sema more damage output than the feats for it have displayed. Laxus used Roaring Thunder as a finisher against Jura - so is this spell going to oneshot Jura if he uses it at the start? Of course not, that would be severely downplaying Jura.

Again, there isn't a single physical feat where Jellal is on par in the current arc. Jellal hasn't attained anything of significance.

So Gildarts get's plot armor one time (one that every FT mage got because Hiro Mashima knew that Azuma's magic and the Tenrou Tree was just nonsense). And Laxus? Considerably more than Gildarts. Even in situations where it doesn't make sense.

You guys are rolling with the plot armour here, not me. Gildarts is one from one in having plot armour in his fights. Laxus got plot armour too, if Gildarts is considered to have plot armour. But Laxus was nerfed much harder.

Using reasonable speculation, I can say that since it was shown that Jellal massively improved in his attacks like Grand Chariot, his Flame of Rebuke becomes stronger. Note that the power of Etherion doesn't change. So because Jellal's Flame of Rebuke was already Etherion level, then right now, it would be just as powerful as Wahl's Etherion.

Now that is definitely spinning the truth. The Flame of Rebuke only used up all of Jellal's MP because he had almost none to start out with. The Self-Destruction spell he created took it all up which is why he was helpless against Midnight vs Erza. Grand Chariot and Sema obviously uses more MP just by looking at Jellal's condition after he uses those spells. It's still Sema > Grand Chariot > Flame of Rebuke.

That's fair enough. Jellal's Flames of Rebuke was worth a few chunks of etherion in magic power. Currently Wahl would have more MP than Jellal. The logic still doesn't connect, as Wahl's MP > Jellal's; and Wahl's etherion is featless.

It might be fair to assume that current GC uses up a lot of power now, but he wasn't downed by it. FoR he was. He stated it was all his MP, so there isn't any reason to assume it was less than all his MP. Also for Sema/GC to be above FoR in MP, these attacks would need to be completely exhaustive.

Wahl was not an intelligent character to begin with so being surprised means nothing. I seriously doubt Jellal would be tricked like that. After all, he'll be beating Laxus up from a distance to which Laxus will be able to do nothing.

Laxus literally destroyed the bullets. How can he destroy Grand Chariot? One is tangible and the other isn't. If Laxus tries to pull that off, it'll end up pretty bad for him. Good luck with that.

Wahl has better intellegence gathering skills than just about anyone... but he's surprised because Jutsu Shiki isn't something that usually gets pulled up mid-battle... so it's likely that Laxus is extremely talented (he could use Jutsu Shiki to stop Sema). So Jellal just wins from a distance... no, he'd get nuked. Laxus has several ranged spells too.

He destroyed the bullets as he more or less teleported. If he wanted to stop Grand Chariot, he could meet it with a similarly powerful spell. But he could dodge it, and then counter immediately.

Considering that the attack came from Jura, even if it was one that was casual, it still possesses a lot of attack power and MP.

It doesn't matter because it's still Jellal magic after all. And because he is allowed to use it, I don't see any excuses to say otherwise.

It's not Jellal's magic, he needs the staves to do it. He doesn't walk around with them, he won't be using this magic.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

It's baseless to assume Jellal could beat Jellal without much difficulty even as a possibility. Why? Because Jura literally defended everything else. Sema on the other hand has the feats of taking out OS members who were injured to begin with. You're clearly giving Sema more damage output than the feats for it have displayed. Laxus used Roaring Thunder as a finisher against Jura - so is this spell going to oneshot Jura if he uses it at the start? Of course not, that would be severely downplaying Jura.

Again, there isn't a single physical feat where Jellal is on par in the current arc. Jellal hasn't attained anything of significance.

Well apparently, Ultear + Meredy thought it was overkill and that Jellal was just trying to "show-off".

This is what I mean when I get the kind of arguments like Jellal's Sema can only take out an injured Oración Seis... Regardless, Jellal was obviously holding back because he states that he wanted to give them a second chance like everyone gave him. He wanted to recruit them to his guild.

And for all those who are trying to downplay Jellal by saying he defeated rusty, Pre-Timeskip Oración Seis, this goes for you guys too. Jellal was holding back. Why? Because Natsu did the same. Unless you tell me he can't kill a fodder?

Spoiler

As you can see, he only intended to defeat them, not kill. Thus, he held back with his flames and knocked them out.

Also, there is proof that Oración Seis improved because Angel learned new magic. Meanwhile, Cobra was released during the Eclipse Gate and fought a dragon where he displayed a similar performance compared to other dragon slayers like Natsu, Laxus, etc. And because those guys were shown to improve by either training or unlocking Second Origin, that is an indicator that Cobra improved as well.

You guys are rolling with the plot armour here, not me. Gildarts is one from one in having plot armour in his fights. Laxus got plot armour too, if Gildarts is considered to have plot armour. But Laxus was nerfed much harder.

But what I said is true, isn't it? Laxus still has more plot armor than Gildarts who lost parts of his body to Acnologia and got no plot armor there. Laxus was nerfed but Gildarts was nerfed on Tenrou too. There still isn't much of a comparison here.

That's fair enough. Jellal's Flames of Rebuke was worth a few chunks of etherion in magic power. Currently Wahl would have more MP than Jellal. The logic still doesn't connect, as Wahl's MP > Jellal's; and Wahl's etherion is featless.

It might be fair to assume that current GC uses up a lot of power now, but he wasn't downed by it. FoR he was. He stated it was all his MP, so there isn't any reason to assume it was less than all his MP. Also for Sema/GC to be above FoR in MP, these attacks would need to be completely exhaustive.

A Spriggan's MP is definitely worth noting. But when we use characters like Laxus and Jellal who are supposedly more powerful than Base Gray and Base Natsu, they should rival a Spriggan's MP even if they aren't quite there yet.

Yeah, Jellal stated it was all of his MP which still holds true even if he wasn't at full MP. "All MP" here just means whatever he had left. So I still don't think Sema or Grand Chariot zaps too much of his MP (maybe only when they're used one after the other as seen in his fight against Oración Seis).

Wahl has better intellegence gathering skills than just about anyone... but he's surprised because Jutsu Shiki isn't something that usually gets pulled up mid-battle... so it's likely that Laxus is extremely talented (he could use Jutsu Shiki to stop Sema). So Jellal just wins from a distance... no, he'd get nuked. Laxus has several ranged spells too.

He destroyed the bullets as he more or less teleported. If he wanted to stop Grand Chariot, he could meet it with a similarly powerful spell. But he could dodge it, and then counter immediately.

Okay, well, I still happen to disagree. He failed to correctly analyze Laxus given his bragging about being able to find people's weaknesses and also fell into a trap that could have been prevented. Dimaria even thinks he looked like a fool especially when we saw him slouching on Dimaria's ship.

Teleport? Okay, well, I must have missed something then. The only feat I saw there was Laxus using his power to electrify the bullets and destroy them.

It's not Jellal's magic, he needs the staves to do it. He doesn't walk around with them, he won't be using this magic.

It is Jellal's magic still. The staves have no magic. They were gone after Edolas as shown when Mystogan tried to use it. It's true needs to channel his magic into the staves to use it. But why can't he do that? He can carry them around like Jacob carrying a knife. Besides, I thought you said that it is allowed for this tournament?

Spoiler

He can use the spells that he showed at the GMG.

 

[Brandish μ]

Well apparently, Ultear + Meredy thought it was overkill and that Jellal was just trying to "show-off".

This is what I mean when I get the kind of arguments like Jellal's Sema can only take out an injured Oración Seis... Regardless, Jellal was obviously holding back because he states that he wanted to give them a second chance like everyone gave him. He wanted to recruit them to his guild.

That's what they thought, obviously they didn't want Jellal to reveal himself...

Well arguments exist like that because Sema only accomplished what it did. How much was Jellal holding back? Do you know if Sema can actually be stronger? These are questions you need to ask of feats before assuming they can be much stronger.

And for all those who are trying to downplay Jellal by saying he defeated rusty, Pre-Timeskip Oración Seis, this goes for you guys too. Jellal was holding back. Why? Because Natsu did the same. Unless you tell me he can't kill a fodder?

Comparing apples with oranges right there. Natsu completely fodderised them without getting fired up. Jellal used his best spell to take out injured OS members. What you're trying to say is that it could take out Jura whose got no damage and could quite easily use a defensive spell like Rock Mountain to stop some of the damage. There is a wide gap between an OS member and GMG Jura. You're essentially hyping Sema to do much more than it showed.

But what I said is true, isn't it? Laxus still has more plot armor than Gildarts who lost parts of his body to Acnologia and got no plot armor there. Laxus was nerfed but Gildarts was nerfed on Tenrou too. There still isn't much of a comparison here.

Lol Idk even know why plot armour is even a thing in this discussion, but I'm happy to play along...

Laxus got the Railgun which stopped him from assured defeat. Erza beat Azuma which stopped Gildarts from assured defeat.

Gildarts got more plot armour than God Serena, and it's obvious God Serena would defeat Gildarts rather easily.

If Bluenote was immune to crash then he'd be as nerfed as Laxus. Though he might have Red Empyrean. The comparison is fairly similar, but the big difference is Wahl >> Bluenote.

A Spriggan's MP is definitely worth noting. But when we use characters like Laxus and Jellal who are supposedly more powerful than Base Gray and Base Natsu, they should rival a Spriggan's MP even if they aren't quite there yet.

Yeah, Jellal stated it was all of his MP which still holds true even if he wasn't at full MP. "All MP" here just means whatever he had left. So I still don't think Sema or Grand Chariot zaps too much of his MP (maybe only when they're used one after the other as seen in his fight against Oración Seis).

Well I'm only running off the Spriggan hype, which is MP based. Jellal/Laxus/Natsu/Gray could all beat a Spriggan without having more MP, they just possess better combat abilities.

Okay, well, I still happen to disagree. He failed to correctly analyze Laxus given his bragging about being able to find people's weaknesses and also fell into a trap that could have been prevented. Dimaria even thinks he looked like a fool especially when we saw him slouching on Dimaria's ship.

Teleport? Okay, well, I must have missed something then. The only feat I saw there was Laxus using his power to electrify the bullets and destroy them.

I'm pretty sure all Wahl saw were anti-magic particles. Given he can identify weakness for others but didn't for Laxus, the likely assumption is that anti-magic particles rendered his analysis void. I'm pretty sure that DiMaria isn't talking about Wahl's knowledge, there's context....

He disappeared. Essentially he moves like lightning with that type of movement.

It is Jellal's magic still. The staves have no magic. They were gone after Edolas as shown when Mystogan tried to use it. It's true needs to channel his magic into the staves to use it. But why can't he do that? He can carry them around like Jacob carrying a knife. Besides, I thought you said that it is allowed for this tournament?

Spoiler

undefined

Jellal needs staves to do it. He can use the magic provided he has the staves. They're quite large, not concealed weapons like a knife. If you want to give Jellal the staves for your argument, go for it. It's not going to matter, Mirror Water hasn't got any feats like stopping a nuke for example, or even anything intangible. I wouldn't use it because it requires more than something Jellal usually has... it's like giving Laxus Thunder Palace.

 

[Woodenstool]

We don't know if Jellal was actually able to kill Neinhart or not. He could be dead or taken as prisoner.

As for Ajeel, there is no proof to claim that Laxus could kill him. August hinted that Ajeel would be in serious trouble but that doesn't necessarily equate to death. Ajeel, on the other hand, denied it. Could it be that he is arrogant? Maybe. But what if this time, he was actually confident he could take it? There's no telling.

It's true Jellal used Grand Chariot to defeat Neinhart. But keep in mind that Grand Chariot is not that high level of a spell. It is casual compared to ones like Sema, Abyss Break, and Altaris. Grand Chariot looked like a high-level spell only because Jellal massively improved in attack power.

Meanwhile, Laxus used Red Lightning (an attack at didn't make sense) at full power + PoF. That is clearly trying a lot more than Jellal.

I honestly don't even see why defeating or killing a Spriggan matters though. The rules state that the winner can be determined by merely incapacitating your opponent. It doesn't need to result in a death.

Tournament Rules

2. Determining the Winner
The winner is decided by the contestant that manages to beat his/her opponent in the match. It does not necessarily have to be by killing, as long as the opponent is incapacitated in a decisive way or knocked out. That is, a winner emerges once the opponent is unable to continue fighting.

You rather trust a cocky guy or August, King of magic?

Laxus would win with extremely high diff, and I mean extremely high. Jellal for over 9 years has been to defeat Zeref. So he is possibility holding a godly attack for Zeref. But he wouldn't it on Laxus so Laxus wins with extremely diff, blood, sweat, tears, big cuts, broken bones.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

That's what they thought, obviously they didn't want Jellal to reveal himself...

Well arguments exist like that because Sema only accomplished what it did. How much was Jellal holding back? Do you know if Sema can actually be stronger? These are questions you need to ask of feats before assuming they can be much stronger.

First of all, the attacks that Jellal used against Jura like Meteor and Grand Chariot happened in the beginning of the fight. In a way, they were testing each other's power. And if he knew Jura was that strong, why would he use an attack that wouldn't be able to match Jura's defense? Seeing that even Jura was nervous and the confidence Jellal had, it's not that far-fetched to say that Sema would have affected him. In fact, it was proven later that Laxus' attack had an effect on Jura and was able to injure him. So, logically, an attack like Sema from Jellal would have caused some damage. Unless you want to tell me that Laxus > Jellal in GMG?

Comparing apples with oranges right there. Natsu completely fodderised them without getting fired up. Jellal used his best spell to take out injured OS members. What you're trying to say is that it could take out Jura whose got no damage and could quite easily use a defensive spell like Rock Mountain to stop some of the damage. There is a wide gap between an OS member and GMG Jura. You're essentially hyping Sema to do much more than it showed.

Not really. This comparison is very valid. I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Holding back has nothing to do with your best or worst spell. You can hold back on one of your strongest spells if you really want to. The only reason why Natsu wasn't fired up was because he was beating up fodders. Meanwhile, Jellal used one of his best spells because he was going up against all of Oración Seis (who are individually many times stronger than the fodders).

This is what I'm saying. Natsu destroyed them with an intent to win, not kill (giving them a chance). Jellal fought Oración Seis with an intent to beat them into submission (giving them a chance). In the end, both the fodders and Oración Seis survived only because they were both given chances to live.

Anyways, you know when someone is holding back. It wouldn't make sense for Jellal to tell Meredy he wanted to give them a chance, yet used Sema with the intent to go all out and kill. I don't need to explain the obvious anymore than I have.

Lol Idk even know why plot armour is even a thing in this discussion, but I'm happy to play along...

Laxus got the Railgun which stopped him from assured defeat. Erza beat Azuma which stopped Gildarts from assured defeat.

Gildarts got more plot armour than God Serena, and it's obvious God Serena would defeat Gildarts rather easily.

If Bluenote was immune to crash then he'd be as nerfed as Laxus. Though he might have Red Empyrean. The comparison is fairly similar, but the big difference is Wahl >> Bluenote.

I honestly don't see why this has become a discussion either. I agreed with another user that Laxus has more plot armor than most characters because he is a mage of FT which is true. You cannot deny that because it's a fact that Hiro Mashima cares more for his main characters than side characters. Both Gildarts and Laxus have their fair share of plot armor because they a part of Fairy Tail. But who is more important to the story? Definitely Laxus. So who has more plot armor? Laxus...

No. Gildarts wouldn't have Red Empyrean or anything similar to that because Hiro Mashima only gives plot armor to characters that are relevant to the plot. We already saw Gildarts crippled by Acnologia. No plot armor there.

Well I'm only running off the Spriggan hype, which is MP based. Jellal/Laxus/Natsu/Gray could all beat a Spriggan without having more MP, they just possess better combat abilities.

Yeah, Spriggans have more MP based on hype. I don't disagree with that. But that doesn't mean Laxus and Jellal lag far behind a Spriggan's MP. They might have similar MP levels even though they aren't exactly the same.

I'm pretty sure all Wahl saw were anti-magic particles. Given he can identify weakness for others but didn't for Laxus, the likely assumption is that anti-magic particles rendered his analysis void. I'm pretty sure that DiMaria isn't talking about Wahl's knowledge, there's context....

He disappeared. Essentially he moves like lightning with that type of movement.

One's action can portray their intelligence. If you see a random guy running down the street with no clothes and yelling something, you probably wouldn't think his mind is working properly. Not saying that the guy is dumb but he probably isn't what you would consider smart. Besides, I think it was portrayed that Wahl is abnormal given Dimaria's words.

Yeah, but it doesn't matter. Lightning body is not that fast when we compare it to Jellal's Meteor. They are more or less equal. The only speed feat that would beat them is like Mest's teleport.

Jellal needs staves to do it. He can use the magic provided he has the staves. They're quite large, not concealed weapons like a knife. If you want to give Jellal the staves for your argument, go for it. It's not going to matter, Mirror Water hasn't got any feats like stopping a nuke for example, or even anything intangible. I wouldn't use it because it requires more than something Jellal usually has... it's like giving Laxus Thunder Palace.

Three Layered Magic Circle: Mirror Water may not help against a nuke but it would definitely be useful against a Lightning Dragon's Roar, Lightning Dragon's Heavenward Halberd, Raging Bolt, and physical attacks infused with magic. So I still think it would be relevant when considering Jellal's defense.

Actually, the attack does have feats of blocking and reflecting intangible attacks. Mystogan proves this.

Spoiler

I don't mind Laxus having Thunder Palace but it is quite useless. Not only does it have a very long casting time to the point that it needs to be set-up in advance, but using your argument from earlier, since Pre-Timeskip Erza tanked it while getting hit by many of them at once, then it shouldn't be that strong now. The only difference here is that Laxus wasn't holding back because the amount of damage caused by each lacrima is fixed.

 

[Brandish μ]

First of all, the attacks that Jellal used against Jura like Meteor and Grand Chariot happened in the beginning of the fight. In a way, they were testing each other's power. And if he knew Jura was that strong, why would he use an attack that wouldn't be able to match Jura's defense? Seeing that even Jura was nervous and the confidence Jellal had, it's not that far-fetched to say that Sema would have affected him. In fact, it was proven later that Laxus' attack had an effect on Jura and was able to injure him. So, logically, an attack like Sema from Jellal would have caused some damage. Unless you want to tell me that Laxus > Jellal in GMG?

Yea I agree, Jellal used Meteor/GC kinda soon, just after Jellal abandoned the use of Mystogan's magic. But Sema is the best spell Jellal has, well as far as I know. I am not saying Sema does not do any damage, but it wouldn't allow Jellal to win right there and there, or win with not much difficulty.

It's quite possible Laxus > Jellal at the GMG. Combat wise Laxus has beaten a better opponent, while Jellal soloed a whole guild (and not something fodder like Raven Tail). It really depends on how you want to look at it.

Not really. This comparison is very valid. I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Holding back has nothing to do with your best or worst spell. You can hold back on one of your strongest spells if you really want to. The only reason why Natsu wasn't fired up was because he was beating up fodders. Meanwhile, Jellal used one of his best spells because he was going up against all of Oración Seis (who are individually many times stronger than the fodders).

This is what I'm saying. Natsu destroyed them with an intent to win, not kill (giving them a chance). Jellal fought Oración Seis with an intent to beat them into submission (giving them a chance). In the end, both the fodders and Oración Seis survived only because they were both given chances to live.

Anyways, you know when someone is holding back. It wouldn't make sense for Jellal to tell Meredy he wanted to give them a chance, yet used Sema with the intent to go all out and kill. I don't need to explain the obvious anymore than I have.

Well I disagree. I think it's apples and oranges because the situation is largely different. You said that if Natsu didn't kill those fodders at that point in time then he can't, as a basis of logic to counter my assertion that Sema's feats is to take out an injured OS (it probably could take out people stronger, but Jura is above any OS member physically). This is a limit concept... where Natsu without using anything special took out fodders vs Jellal using his best spell. The amount of effort Natsu used was enough to KO the fodders, but could he KO Lucy with the same amount of effort? I doubt it. Jellal used his best spell, so that effort is fairly significant.

I honestly don't see why this has become a discussion either. I agreed with another user that Laxus has more plot armor than most characters because he is a mage of FT which is true. You cannot deny that because it's a fact that Hiro Mashima cares more for his main characters than side characters. Both Gildarts and Laxus have their fair share of plot armor because they a part of Fairy Tail. But who is more important to the story? Definitely Laxus. So who has more plot armor? Laxus...

No. Gildarts wouldn't have Red Empyrean or anything similar to that because Hiro Mashima only gives plot armor to characters that are relevant to the plot. We already saw Gildarts crippled by Acnologia. No plot armor there.

Well I guess if we're getting into plot armour discussion because it's FT guild > others then that's fine. It doesn't detract from feats however, because you can assess them on their merits. I do agree plot favours FT, but you can still identify their strength. It can get a slippery slope if we keep assigning plot armour to everyone.

Why would Gildarts not earn plot armour in a fight where someone was immune to crash? He got some already, or would you expect him to lose? I can accept the argument about Gildarts and Acnologia, it definitely crippled him. Would it be fair to say plot allowed him to survive? That's why I don't like doing these plot armour arguments, you can spin it anyway you want and all I'm doing right here is bashing Gildarts selectively.

Yeah, Spriggans have more MP based on hype. I don't disagree with that. But that doesn't mean Laxus and Jellal lag far behind a Spriggan's MP. They might have similar MP levels even though they aren't exactly the same.

Well I threw up the Spriggan level MP because it comes into play when Jellal's FoR would be considered above Wahl's Etherion, which may or may not be the case. I agree they might be close, though they can bridge the gap other ways. I kind of believe the GoI have more MP than Jellal or Laxus.

One's action can portray their intelligence. If you see a random guy running down the street with no clothes and yelling something, you probably wouldn't think his mind is working properly. Not saying that the guy is dumb but he probably isn't what you would consider smart. Besides, I think it was portrayed that Wahl is abnormal given Dimaria's words.

Yeah, but it doesn't matter. Lightning body is not that fast when we compare it to Jellal's Meteor. They are more or less equal. The only speed feat that would beat them is like Mest's teleport.

Well I think Wahl's a little eccentric is all.

Meteor I give the benefit of the doubt for because Jellal uses it often. Laxus uses the coat, which is slower. But against a ranged attack Laxus would use the lightning speed thing.

Three Layered Magic Circle: Mirror Water may not help against a nuke but it would definitely be useful against a Lightning Dragon's Roar, Halberd of the Raging Bolt, and physical attacks infused with magic. So I still think it would be relevant when considering Jellal's defense.

Actually, the attack does have feats of blocking and reflecting intangible attacks. Mystogan proves this.

Well Mirror water might be able to stop them I guess. Still, the nuke is probably not as strong as an LD Roar with full power, so if Mirror Water does scale to Jellal's improvement then I can concede that to you. I don't try to hype that nuke too high (like oneshotting Ajeel), more than likely it's doing moderate damage, the same it would likely do to Jellal.

I don't mind Laxus having Thunder Palace but it is quite useless. Not only does it have a very long casting time to the point that it needs to be set-up in advance, but using your argument from earlier, since Pre-Timeskip Erza tanked it while getting hit by many of them at once, then it shouldn't be that strong now. The only difference here is that Laxus wasn't holding back because the amount of damage caused by each lacrima is fixed.

The lacrima only attack when someone has hit it. But if Laxus sets a time to it like he did in FF arc, then I believe it detonates at once? Current Laxus might be able to put more power in it, and if there's enough power to take out Erza for a little while then it's likely going to do a little bit to Jellal. It might be enough to buy Laxus a chance in the fight.

 

[Stormsfury]

Yea I agree, Jellal used Meteor/GC kinda soon, just after Jellal abandoned the use of Mystogan's magic. But Sema is the best spell Jellal has, well as far as I know. I am not saying Sema does not do any damage, but it wouldn't allow Jellal to win right there and there, or win with not much difficulty.

It's quite possible Laxus > Jellal at the GMG. Combat wise Laxus has beaten a better opponent, while Jellal soloed a whole guild (and not something fodder like Raven Tail). It really depends on how you want to look at it.



Well I disagree. I think it's apples and oranges because the situation is largely different. You said that if Natsu didn't kill those fodders at that point in time then he can't, as a basis of logic to counter my assertion that Sema's feats is to take out an injured OS (it probably could take out people stronger, but Jura is above any OS member physically). This is a limit concept... where Natsu without using anything special took out fodders vs Jellal using his best spell. The amount of effort Natsu used was enough to KO the fodders, but could he KO Lucy with the same amount of effort? I doubt it. Jellal used his best spell, so that effort is fairly significant.



Well I guess if we're getting into plot armour discussion because it's FT guild > others then that's fine. It doesn't detract from feats however, because you can assess them on their merits. I do agree plot favours FT, but you can still identify their strength. It can get a slippery slope if we keep assigning plot armour to everyone.

Why would Gildarts not earn plot armour in a fight where someone was immune to crash? He got some already, or would you expect him to lose? I can accept the argument about Gildarts and Acnologia, it definitely crippled him. Would it be fair to say plot allowed him to survive? That's why I don't like doing these plot armour arguments, you can spin it anyway you want and all I'm doing right here is bashing Gildarts selectively.



Well I threw up the Spriggan level MP because it comes into play when Jellal's FoR would be considered above Wahl's Etherion, which may or may not be the case. I agree they might be close, though they can bridge the gap other ways. I kind of believe the GoI have more MP than Jellal or Laxus.



Well I think Wahl's a little eccentric is all.

Meteor I give the benefit of the doubt for because Jellal uses it often. Laxus uses the coat, which is slower. But against a ranged attack Laxus would use the lightning speed thing.



Well Mirror water might be able to stop them I guess. Still, the nuke is probably not as strong as an LD Roar with full power, so if Mirror Water does scale to Jellal's improvement then I can concede that to you. I don't try to hype that nuke too high (like oneshotting Ajeel), more than likely it's doing moderate damage, the same it would likely do to Jellal.



The lacrima only attack when someone has hit it. But if Laxus sets a time to it like he did in FF arc, then I believe it detonates at once? Current Laxus might be able to put more power in it, and if there's enough power to take out Erza for a little while then it's likely going to do a little bit to Jellal. It might be enough to buy Laxus a chance in the fight.

How is Jellal even supposed to cast mirror water at lightning speed? Laxus raises his hand and lands an instantaneous lightning nuke, there is no way in hell Jellal gets mirror water up in time.

I pretty much agree with everything else.

 

[Brandish μ]

How is Jellal even supposed to cast mirror water at lightning speed? Laxus raises his hand and lands an instantaneous lightning nuke, there is no way in hell Jellal gets mirror water up in time.

I pretty much agree with everything else.

Well I guess that's something to consider when it comes to defensive spell, just how quick can they be activated? I think with the nuke, there's also the 360 degree factor, as the AoE is too big. There's also the possibility that something intangible like lightning might not get diverted by mirror water, though I'm willing to say mirror water could work on it.

With Laxus roar I'm not sure on it yet. I assume it's got similar power like Natsu's, though the AoE might be different depending on the shape.

 

[Jean Grey]

nah I don't think that Mirror Water can deflect something on the size of lightning nuke. when Laxus summons lightning from the heavens then its almost instantaneous. his nuke is also very quick.

 

[Brandish μ]

I guess so. But perhaps like Jura did against Laxus' Halberd, Jellal's Mirror water might be able to stop a front on attack, depending on it's power of course.

 

[Orgastthemage]

There's too much speculation here and not enough feats, you have to use facts and not say things like "perhaps" and "maybe", because it could just prove unfair to the other competitor, the same thing happened in Natsu vs God Serena.

I'm pretty sure Laxus can still be hit while in Lightning Body because Jura was able to do it, Lightning body does not completely negate all magic, however I don't think Mirror Water is working against someone of Laxus' speed, the ranged attacks that Laxus drops are almost instantaneous, Jellal actually has to do symbols and cast the spell for Mirror Water, I doubt he has the time to actually cast it in that regard.

It is not just speculation, it is reasonable speculation saying Jellal could achieve something similar to that. After all, he has become immensely stronger just like Laxus has.

 

[Raven]

WOW! it's hard to choose between jellal and laxus. I will not vote because it should be a tie.. both actually on the same tier

 

[kira]

WOW! it's hard to choose between jellal and laxus. I will not vote because it should be a tie.. both actually on the same tier

yeah this should be a tie.. maybe everyone should have not voted and thus we have a tie! A three way battle for the finals

 

[Cosmicstar]

sooooo you think ToH DF Natsu is spriggan 12 level now?......... Bruh.........

Edit: How the hell was Laxus' nuke not casual? Did he look like he was trying or something to you? What he was doing against Wahl was trying to get him into a Jutsu Shiki so that he could heal himself, also Red Lightning surpasses the casual nuke because there is something called attack potency, not everything has to have a big boom to be considered powerful.
Jellal can only mimic Mystogan's magic, he can't actually use it properly and he isn't casting mirror water fast enough to deflect a casual nuke which is instantaneous, he needs a couple seconds to weave the hand signs and cast the mirror water. Laxus also has thought projections, his thought projection one-shot Natsu.

Are you suggesting the attacks that Laxus tanked is more powerful than the attack TOH DF Natsu used against Jellal? Show proof. First off Laxus didn't tank majority of Whal attacks besides the lightning. Which clearly would do no damage to him.

Spoiler

Wow a punch.

Spoiler

\

Dodged this attack.

Spoiler

Tanked this. I will give it to him.

Spoiler

Spoiler

IDK if we can use this feats as he was seriously injured by these attacks but then Whal used a lightning attack in which case Laxus absorbed it and increased his power. It would be like when Natsu was fighting Zero and he could barely move then Jellal giving him fire to increase/restore his energy. Or like Natsu vs Gajeel. So take it how you will, IDC.

Also the Nuke Laxus used against Azir wasn't casual as if it was casual then he would have been dropping Nukes like that during his battle with Whal. Also we didn't see him when he first started the nuke we only saw afterwards.

Spoiler

Spoiler

None of these attacks compare to:

Spoiler

If it was casual he would have been dropping nukes like that during his fight with Whal.

 

[Char]

Are you suggesting the attacks that Laxus tanked is more powerful than the attack TOH DF Natsu used against Jellal? Show proof. First off Laxus didn't tank majority of Whal attacks besides the lightning. Which clearly would do no damage to him.

Dude, with all due respect... Bringing ToH Natsu here is total misjudgement.

ToH Natsu is pretty simply fodder to any x791 relevant character. ToH DF Natsu is... I mean... hell, you could even think he is current Max level. Heck, Max was capable of overpowering Tenrou base Natsu. And Tenrou base Natsu might be a match or just slightly below ToH DF Natsu...

We're talking completely different leagues here.

 

[Kiki]

If it was casual he would have been dropping nukes like that during his fight with Whal.

The MBPs inside his body kicked in at that night before the fight. If he had nuked Wahl, it would have hit his comrades. Laxus' nuke has mega AoE.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Well I disagree. I think it's apples and oranges because the situation is largely different. You said that if Natsu didn't kill those fodders at that point in time then he can't, as a basis of logic to counter my assertion that Sema's feats is to take out an injured OS (it probably could take out people stronger, but Jura is above any OS member physically). This is a limit concept... where Natsu without using anything special took out fodders vs Jellal using his best spell. The amount of effort Natsu used was enough to KO the fodders, but could he KO Lucy with the same amount of effort? I doubt it. Jellal used his best spell, so that effort is fairly significant.

Like I said, Natsu never showed any hints of holding back. I can tell he was but I was actually being lenient because it was never stated. Even Lucy thought he was going all out considering he melted the GMG. Meanwhile, Jellal clearly did when he told Meredy that and tried to recruit them. That is why the comparison valid. Whether they use a strong attack or a weaker attack, it doesn't matter. You can hold back with either, although it wouldn't make sense with a weak attack because then the damage will be almost nothing. It makes more sense with a stronger attack like Sema.

The lacrima only attack when someone has hit it. But if Laxus sets a time to it like he did in FF arc, then I believe it detonates at once? Current Laxus might be able to put more power in it, and if there's enough power to take out Erza for a little while then it's likely going to do a little bit to Jellal. It might be enough to buy Laxus a chance in the fight.

Yeah, Laxus can set it at one second if he wants. But I believe Erza took damage from nearly half of them while being low on MP. Erza has no AoE so it makes sense that she has to use a lot of MP to destroy them. On the other hand, Jellal can use a casual attack like Grand Chariot and destroy them completely. But like I said the casting time is way too long that Laxus would need time to set-up which Jellall won't give him.