Voting Round 3 Naruto vs. Berserk

[Gut's is the man]

Going with Berserk here.

In every category Berserk is better than Naruto.

And I am pretty pissed against Naruto for defeating Tokyo Ghoul.

popularity.

 

[Demonspeed]

How the hell is Naruto still around?

Believe it!

 

[z.5]

There was point though where Naruto's characters actually seemed like they were amazing.

The problem was that the point where Naruto's story was good was a looooong time in the past - I'd argue that it begun to get bad from as early as when Sasuke left Orochimaru.

... and Naruto dropped HARD.
Really, really, hard.
Bleach degrees of hard.

As far as characters go, Naruto had the more interesting ones in my mind.
But, unfortunately, almost everything else goes heavily in Berserk's direction - story, art, style, etc.

When considering what I think about Naruto, I am always brought back to the sad thought of what it could have been, not what it ended up being.

 

[Hermit]

Damn it, I'm late to the party. But you know, being late isn't exactly always a bad thing:

Really elated I got past Tokyo Ghoul, thank you for all the ones who voted Naruto But now, another Titan lies in our path:

So I'll take this up a notch Stay with me from the beginning to the ending of this post, and I promise Ill make it worth your time

I do have one confession though, I've never quite read Berserk. But, from what I've heard from its reputation, it has the appealing factor of being a dark and gritty manga, one that doesn't exactly pull its punches where its writing is concerned. I think that's a really good thing, not something you find commonly in literature, that's for one. But, what if I showed you that in it's own way, Naruto has it's own dark themes?

Themes
Genocide, mass murder and child soldiers
Surprised? Maybe, maybe not But, think back to the first arc of the series, along with these two guys, who were honestly the best way to start the series due to what they represented:

Zabuza and Haku
At first glance, they look like your run of the mill ruffian villains, who solely exist for the sake of being nothing but stepping stones for the protagonist in his quest to best. But, allow me to take you on this nostalgia trip.

Haku's backstory​

Spoiler: Spoiler

Midway through his fight with Sasuke, he was revealed to also be from a special clan, which possessed a Bloodline Limit just like the Sharingan. You'd think this established him as a special snowflake, and a person to be respected and revered everywhere? Nope, think again. Unlike with the Uchiha, Those with Kekkei Genkai were regarded with suspicion by the people of Kiri and the wider Land of Water due to their efficiency during times of war. As such, persecution and even murder of anyone with a kekkei genkai was common; in the case of the Yuki clan (Which Haku is from), it no longer exists in an organised sense and its few surviving members live in secret, fearful of their abilities being discovered. He lived with his mother in secret, hiding their abilities from their father, but once their father realized the truth, he killed the mother, so Haku had to kill his own father in self defense.

Zabuza's backstory

Spoiler: Spoiler

Haku's caretaker, and the one person who believes Haku is actually useful, although only in regards to achieving his own ambitions. As I had stated in an earlier post, Zabuza was part of the Seven Ninja Swordsmen. But, the real story behind how this man became renown as the Demon of the Mist. In an era where Kirigakure, his home was known as the 'Bloody Mist Village', Zabuza was a Genin just like Naruto at the beginning of the story. But unlike Konoha where exams are held normally, here, students wishing to graduate had to fight to the death, and only those who survived could advance to the ranks of the ninja. So what does Zabuza do? He kills his entire graduating class, the custom being too shocking that it causes the immediate cancellation of the event. For Game of Thrones fans, remember [these guys](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Unsullied)? I get the same vibes from Zabuza's story.
Of course, once the custom is done away with, you'd think that was the end of it, right? Nope, think again. Danzo adopted the same method in his nurturing of the Root system, where he trained its members to lose their emotions by growing up as brothers from a young age, only to later be made to kill each other. This was done to kill any sense of sentiment or emotional attachment. Each member had a codename; even the members themselves apparently did not know their original names. And unlike the Hidden Mist Ninja, with Danzo, he made sure that each member of the organisation had a cursed seak imprinted on the back of their tongues, which when activated, would paralyse their entire body if they tried to speak anything about Danzō or the organisation, rendering them unable to speak or move.

The Kaguya Clan

Which Kimimaro was a member of. Now, I know this is a pretty small clan in the big scheme of things, but I think it's good to note that they were from the same village as Zabuza and Haku, and possessed a Kekkei Genkai which:

​

Spoiler: Spoiler

Think that makes them all powerful? Nope, on the contrary, it didn't. This clan once waged war against Kiri to quench their lust for battle, but were slaughtered by the village's superior forces.

The Uchiha Clan

Quite possibly one of the most powerful clans in the story, being there from the beginning and descended from the Sage of the Six Paths himself, the founder of Shinobi. Being a really gifted clan in their own right, you'd come to think that they were the ideal clan, one which every hidden village desired for themselves. With great power, comes great responsibility, but unfortunately they couldn't live up to the responsibility. Due to a combined decision from the Third Hokage, Hiruzen and the Village Elders, they decided this clan was too dangerous to let live, so they tasked a certain someone with finishing off the clan, at the cost of letting his little brother live:

Spoiler: Spoiler

This is probably what makes his stories one of the saddest ones in the series. At the tender age of 13, he had to climb to the top most position possible due to his family's expectations of him and was being used to spy on the Hokage and his family by both factions. When he was finally given the order, he brutally slayed every living relative he had in the village, aunts/uncles/ nephews, down to the last baby for actions they didn't commit. While he should have been treated as a hero for preventing the outbreak of a civil war and Konoha's destruction when another village would attack it at its weakest, he's branded a traitor and forced to flee with a bounty placed on his head.
I mean, this man had to kill his own parents....that's just....

Bonus Panels

Spoiler: Panel 1

Spoiler: Panel 2

Spoiler: Panel 3

Spoiler: Panel 4

So, this is just a teaser for what's to come But I do hope I managed to capture your interest to see how the rest of this will go
Stay tuned for more!
​

 

[Arjuna]

Damn it, I'm late to the party. But you know, being late isn't exactly always a bad thing:

Really elated I got past Tokyo Ghoul, thank you for all the ones who voted Naruto But now, another Titan lies in our path:

So I'll take this up a notch Stay with me from the beginning to the ending of this post, and I promise Ill make it worth your time

I do have one confession though, I've never quite read Berserk. But, from what I've heard from its reputation, it has the appealing factor of being a dark and gritty manga, one that doesn't exactly pull its punches where its writing is concerned. I think that's a really good thing, not something you find commonly in literature, that's for one. But, what if I showed you that in it's own way, Naruto has it's own dark themes?

Themes
Genocide, mass murder and child soldiers
Surprised? Maybe, maybe not But, think back to the first arc of the series, along with these two guys, who were honestly the best way to start the series due to what they represented:

Zabuza and Haku
At first glance, they look like your run of the mill ruffian villains, who solely exist for the sake of being nothing but stepping stones for the protagonist in his quest to best. But, allow me to take you on this nostalgia trip.

Haku's backstory​

Spoiler: Spoiler

Midway through his fight with Sasuke, he was revealed to also be from a special clan, which possessed a Bloodline Limit just like the Sharingan. You'd think this established him as a special snowflake, and a person to be respected and revered everywhere? Nope, think again. Unlike with the Uchiha, Those with Kekkei Genkai were regarded with suspicion by the people of Kiri and the wider Land of Water due to their efficiency during times of war. As such, persecution and even murder of anyone with a kekkei genkai was common; in the case of the Yuki clan (Which Haku is from), it no longer exists in an organised sense and its few surviving members live in secret, fearful of their abilities being discovered. He lived with his mother in secret, hiding their abilities from their father, but once their father realized the truth, he killed the mother, so Haku had to kill his own father in self defense.

Zabuza's backstory

Spoiler: Spoiler

Haku's caretaker, and the one person who believes Haku is actually useful, although only in regards to achieving his own ambitions. As I had stated in an earlier post, Zabuza was part of the Seven Ninja Swordsmen. But, the real story behind how this man became renown as the Demon of the Mist. In an era where Kirigakure, his home was known as the 'Bloody Mist Village', Zabuza was a Genin just like Naruto at the beginning of the story. But unlike Konoha where exams are held normally, here, students wishing to graduate had to fight to the death, and only those who survived could advance to the ranks of the ninja. So what does Zabuza do? He kills his entire graduating class, the custom being too shocking that it causes the immediate cancellation of the event. For Game of Thrones fans, remember [these guys](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Unsullied)? I get the same vibes from Zabuza's story.
Of course, once the custom is done away with, you'd think that was the end of it, right? Nope, think again. Danzo adopted the same method in his nurturing of the Root system, where he trained its members to lose their emotions by growing up as brothers from a young age, only to later be made to kill each other. This was done to kill any sense of sentiment or emotional attachment. Each member had a codename; even the members themselves apparently did not know their original names. And unlike the Hidden Mist Ninja, with Danzo, he made sure that each member of the organisation had a cursed seak imprinted on the back of their tongues, which when activated, would paralyse their entire body if they tried to speak anything about Danzō or the organisation, rendering them unable to speak or move.

The Kaguya Clan

Which Kimimaro was a member of. Now, I know this is a pretty small clan in the big scheme of things, but I think it's good to note that they were from the same village as Zabuza and Haku, and possessed a Kekkei Genkai which:

​

Spoiler: Spoiler

Think that makes them all powerful? Nope, on the contrary, it didn't. This clan once waged war against Kiri to quench their lust for battle, but were slaughtered by the village's superior forces.

The Uchiha Clan

Quite possibly one of the most powerful clans in the story, being there from the beginning and descended from the Sage of the Six Paths himself, the founder of Shinobi. Being a really gifted clan in their own right, you'd come to think that they were the ideal clan, one which every hidden village desired for themselves. With great power, comes great responsibility, but unfortunately they couldn't live up to the responsibility. Due to a combined decision from the Third Hokage, Hiruzen and the Village Elders, they decided this clan was too dangerous to let live, so they tasked a certain someone with finishing off the clan, at the cost of letting his little brother live:

Spoiler: Spoiler

This is probably what makes his stories one of the saddest ones in the series. At the tender age of 13, he had to climb to the top most position possible due to his family's expectations of him and was being used to spy on the Hokage and his family by both factions. When he was finally given the order, he brutally slayed every living relative he had in the village, aunts/uncles/ nephews, down to the last baby for actions they didn't commit. While he should have been treated as a hero for preventing the outbreak of a civil war and Konoha's destruction when another village would attack it at its weakest, he's branded a traitor and forced to flee with a bounty placed on his head.
I mean, this man had to kill his own parents....that's just....

Bonus Panels

Spoiler: Panel 1

Spoiler: Panel 2

Spoiler: Panel 3

Spoiler: Panel 4

So, this is just a teaser for what's to come But I do hope I managed to capture your interest to see how the rest of this will go
Stay tuned for more!
​

You may get pass TG but not Berserk.

Berserk is ahead in ever category you may mention about Naruto-plot,atmosphere,villains and characterisation,mystery everything.


There is nothing called "plot protection" here which even Naruto had.

 

[z.5]

Quite possibly one of the most powerful clans in the story, being there from the beginning and descended from the Sage of the Six Paths himself, the founder of Shinobi. Being a really gifted clan in their own right, you'd come to think that they were the ideal clan, one which every hidden village desired for themselves. With great power, comes great responsibility, but unfortunately they couldn't live up to the responsibility. Due to a combined decision from the Third Hokage, Hiruzen and the Village Elders, they decided this clan was too dangerous to let live, so they tasked a certain someone with finishing off the clan, at the cost of letting his little brother live:

This, in my mind, was one of the worst parts of storytelling which Kishimoto did. It really made so little sense and turned the leaders of Konohagakure into what appears to be little more than blithering idiots.

There was little excuse for what they did, as they could have easily dealt with the situation through diplomacy/arresting the plotters.

I still don't buy that the Uchiha clan was ever 'treated badly', nor that they were 'ostracised' any more than the Hyuuga were.

The (named) Uchiha were seen with awe throughout the first part of the story – before Sasuke buggered off to hunt down his brother.

They were given a very important role in peacekeeping and policing within the village (putting a clan you don't trust in a role of maintaining the peace is more than a little idiotic).

The idea that they were ever treated badly came so out off left-field that, at first, I believed it to be little more than a lie to misdirect Sasuke's rage and draw him against Konohagakure.

Spoiler: Itachi BS

This is probably what makes his stories one of the saddest ones in the series. At the tender age of 13, he had to climb to the top most position possible due to his family's expectations of him and was being used to spy on the Hokage and his family by both factions. When he was finally given the order, he brutally slayed every living relative he had in the village, aunts/uncles/ nephews, down to the last baby for actions they didn't commit. While he should have been treated as a hero for preventing the outbreak of a civil war and Konoha's destruction when another village would attack it at its weakest, he's branded a traitor and forced to flee with a bounty placed on his head.
I mean, this man had to kill his own parents....that's just....

Spoiler: What an asshat he was

The only sad thing about this story is how it ruined a perfectly good villain, by trying to justify the murder of innocents.

Nothing he did was 'heroic'.

He killed children and non-military personnel (Uchiha's who were not ninjas, but were just shop owners [etc.]), who were hardly likely to 'rise up and drag the village into a civil war' (to be honest, there was no evidence that even the ninjas in the Uchiha clan were all behind this plot).

He mentally traumatized his brother – corrupting him almost enough to, in turn, murder his best friends (and other innocents).

He worked for a criminal organization and was involved in the capture and murder of other [for all we know] innocent people (unless you are going to justify the capture of other jinchuriki – many of which were forced to have tailed creatures forced into them [they deserve far more sympathy in this story than Itachi]).

Itachi was not a good guy – and was a far more interesting character before the author decided to try and make him one.

Itachi was yet another prime example of how Kishimoto took his potentially complex and interesting world, bent it over and screwed it.

 

[Arjuna]

@Lambu let us take revenge for Tokyo Ghoul by killing Naruto.Let us do what Sasuke failed to do.

 

[Hermit]

This, in my mind, was one of the worst parts of storytelling which Kishimoto did. It really made so little sense and turned the leaders of Konohagakure appear to be little more than blithering idiots.

There was little excuse for what they did, as they could have easily dealt with the situation through diplomacy/arresting the plotters.

I still don't buy that the Uchiha clan was ever 'treated badly', nor that they were 'ostracised' any more than the Hyuuga were.

The (named) Uchiha were seen with awe throughout the first part of the story – before Sasuke buggered off to hunt down his brother.

They were given a very important role in peacekeeping and policing within the village (putting a clan you don't trust in a role of maintaining the peace is more than a little idiotic).

The idea that they were ever treated badly came so out off left-field that, at first, I believed it to be little more than a lie to misdirect Sasuke's rage and draw him against Konohagakure.

They were ostracized though, to the point where they were pushed to living outside the village, and the only saving grace they had was maintaining the Konoha Police Force, which just seems like a consolotion prize. This is a clan that was involved in founding the village, is that really something in order? The seeds for a coup were well in place, and the situation had gotten so severe to the point Shisui was planning to use Kotoamatsukami to quell the rebellion.

Spoiler: Tobirama's explanation

Also, remember Tobirama's conversation with Sasuke. He specifically told him the Uchiha know love more than any other clan, which is why they're highly unstable. A prime example of this is Obito literally going insane due to losing Rin, and deciding to take down the whole world with him.

Itachi was yet another prime example of how Kishimoto took his potentially complex and interesting world, bent it over and screwed it.

Spoiler: Spoiler

But that's the thing, Itachi isn't regarded a hero, or rather, he shouldn't be. Naruto considers him a hero and everyone says he is a saint... but he's not and the character is well aware of that. Many of the things Itachi did are not as terrible as they seem because the ninja world is not our world and does not follow our moral code but no one can possibly justify what he did to Sauce in order to protect him or how he wanted to pull Kotoamatsukami on Sasuke, they were both horrible... those were plans that truly made Itachi a monster out of circumstances and traumas but a monster nonetheless... an anti-hero not a hero.
I say it again, Itachi is not a saint. He is at fault for many things and he decided many things that could be considered selfish while trying to be selfless.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 13, 2017, Original Post Date: Oct 13, 2017 ---

You may get pass TG but not Berserk.

Berserk is ahead in ever category you may mention about Naruto-plot,atmosphere,villains and characterisation,mystery everything.


There is nothing called "plot protection" here which even Naruto had.

Then I'll just power up more

 

[Arjuna]

They were ostracized though, to the point where they were pushed to living outside the village, and the only saving grace they had was maintaining the Konoha Police Force, which just seems like a consolotion prize. This is a clan that was involved in founding the village, is that really something in order? The seeds for a coup were well in place, and the situation had gotten so severe to the point Shisui was planning to use Kotoamatsukami to quell the rebellion.

Spoiler: Tobirama's explanation

Also, remember Tobirama's conversation with Sasuke. He specifically told him the Uchiha know love more than any other clan, which is why they're highly unstable. A prime example of this is Obito literally going insane due to losing Rin, and deciding to take down the whole world with him.

Spoiler: Spoiler

But that's the thing, Itachi isn't regarded a hero, or rather, he shouldn't be. Naruto considers him a hero and everyone says he is a saint... but he's not and the character is well aware of that. Many of the things Itachi did are not as terrible as they seem because the ninja world is not our world and does not follow our moral code but no one can possibly justify what he did to Sauce in order to protect him or how he wanted to pull Kotoamatsukami on Sasuke, they were both horrible... those were plans that truly made Itachi a monster out of circumstances and traumas but a monster nonetheless... an anti-hero not a hero.
I say it again, Itachi is not a saint. He is at fault for many things and he decided many things that could be considered selfish while trying to be selfless.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 13, 2017, Original Post Date: Oct 13, 2017 ---

Then I'll just power up more

That orange hair kid is going down now

 

[z.5]

They were ostracized though, to the point where they were pushed to living outside the village,

No more than the Hyuuga, Aburame, or Inuzuka clans were

and the only saving grace they had was maintaining the Konoha Police Force, which just seems like a consolotion prize.

To whom exactly?

The only reason it was seen as a consolation prize, is that Kishimoto decided he had to turn Itachi into a hero and therefore bullshitted it into becoming one.

As I said before, in any other situation, when you have a group which is likely to become an issue to public order, you'd have to be an idiot to put them in a position critical to maintaining it.

This is a clan that was involved in founding the village, is that really something in order? The seeds for a coup were well in place, and the situation had gotten so severe to the point Shisui was planning to use Kotoamatsukami to quell the rebellion.

Yes, I am, unfortunately, all to aware of the almost complete re-working of the story which was done to suit the Uchiha Senju narative.

I am afraid that it was a case of very sloppy writing.

Yes, the Uchiha did help in founding the village, but they were (from all the evidence we have – and not from the later introduced [although Sasuke never realised at the time] information) treated with respect, freedom, and were allowed a huge amount of responsibility.

They had no inherent right to leadership, anymore than the Hyuuga or Naara (or any other clan which later joined the village) did.

There were no seeds for a coup – other than, perhaps, a few power-hungry leaders within the Uchiha clan.

Spoiler: Tobirama's explanation

Also, remember Tobirama's conversation with Sasuke. He specifically told him the Uchiha know love more than any other clan, which is why they're highly unstable. A prime example of this is Obito literally going insane due to losing Rin, and deciding to take down the whole world with him.

This genetically induced mental disease, which the Uchiha apparently suffered from, also came out of left-field.

Kishimoto probably realised how weak his reasons were for Itachi's massacre, so had to introduce some plotkai Haddaway bull about 'knowing love' to justify it.

It turns out that what the Uchiha needed wasn't to be brutally executed, but to smoke a few joints and have a nice long chat with a psychiatrist.

Naruto considers him a hero and everyone says he is a saint...

Well if Naruto, a character with the emotional complexity of a toilet brush, thinks he is a saint, then he must surely be.

 

[Valhalla]

This, in my mind, was one of the worst parts of storytelling which Kishimoto did. It really made so little sense and turned the leaders of Konohagakure into what appears to be little more than blithering idiots.

There was little excuse for what they did, as they could have easily dealt with the situation through diplomacy/arresting the plotters.

I still don't buy that the Uchiha clan was ever 'treated badly', nor that they were 'ostracised' any more than the Hyuuga were.

The (named) Uchiha were seen with awe throughout the first part of the story – before Sasuke buggered off to hunt down his brother.

They were given a very important role in peacekeeping and policing within the village (putting a clan you don't trust in a role of maintaining the peace is more than a little idiotic).

The idea that they were ever treated badly came so out off left-field that, at first, I believed it to be little more than a lie to misdirect Sasuke's rage and draw him against Konohagakure.

Interesting,
Well the Uchiha had their reasons for plotting against the village. But i think you miss the main point about the destruction of the Uchiha clan. You are right that the leaders were incompetent. Nonetheless, they actually tried to prevent the Uchiha uprising by diplomacy, to the point of using Shisui's genjutsu as a back up plan to install diplomatic notions into their heads. It is logical to arrest the plotters, but the plotters were the very leaders of the Uchiha clan, so there was a possibility that it would give the oposite effect and the rest of the Uchiha would go on a rampage.
But the main reason of the Uchiha destruction was that snake Danzo (god i hate that guy) who plotted behind the Hokage and elders backs, He alone was responsible for stopping Shisui and ultimately for the massacre mission. If i remember correctly though.

 

[z.5]

But i think you miss the main point about the destruction of the Uchiha clan.

I am afraid that I don't believe so.

It was, what I consider to be, bad storytelling to force an 'epic' narrative into an already positive story (thus ruining the previous effort at storytelling by supplanting it with a new [and in my view less interesting] direction).

You are right that the leaders were incompetent.

A mild way of putting it, yes.

It is logical to arrest the plotters, but the plotters were the very leaders of the Uchiha clan, so there was a possibility that it would give the oposite effect and the rest of the Uchiha would go on a rampage

And you believe this likely?

They arrest the leaders, show evidence of them plotting to overthrow the village, emphasize how much of a terrible idea that is (and how much everyone, including those who were ninjas, would suffer if such a thing was to happen), point out how even if they did perform a coup they would likely lose anyway...

All this to a clan, most of which, from what we know, weren't even aware that a coup was being planned, didn't appear to be overly power-hungry, didn't appear to feel mistreated/resent the rest of the village...

But the main reason of the Uchiha destruction was that snake Danzo (god i hate that guy) who plotted behind the Hokage and elders backs, He alone was responsible for stopping Shisui and ultimately for the massacre mission. If i remember correctly though.

Then, why didn't Itachi (a genius ) just take out Danzo instead?

They could have arrested the plotters, Danzo would be gone, and Itachi would still appear a villain - though at least he may have a modicum of justification for his actions this way.

 

[Hermit]

The only reason it was seen as a consolation prize, is that Kishimoto decided he had to turn Itachi into a hero and therefore bullshitted it into becoming one.

Not entirely, the seeds for Itachi not being entirely evil were already planted in part 1. We knew Jiraiya had a spy within the Akatsuki, who else would it be other than Itachi? Another Konoha ninja like him. In fact, I'd go farther and state that Itachi's initial explanation for killing the clan to Sasuke was quite probably the largest outlier that there was more to him than met the eye other than a typical run of the villain.
"I wanted to test my vessel."
Is he really that type of a character? Even from the little we saw of him moments before the massacre, this was an incredibly OOC line. Plus for someone who wants to test out the extent of his abilities, why would he shy away from fighting Jiraiya with Kisame under the guise of "I'm not sure we can even beat him working together."
The foreshadowing for Itachi being good was always there honestly. I use the word good loosely here btw

Yes, the Uchiha did help in founding the village, but they were (from all the evidence we have – and not from the later introduced [although Sasuke never realised at the time] information) treated with respect, freedom, and were allowed a huge amount of responsibility.

They had no inherent right to leadership, anymore than the Hyuuga or Naara (or any other clan which later joined the village) did.

There were no seeds for a coup – other than, perhaps, a few power-hungry leaders within the Uchiha clan.

It isn't about having the inherent right to leadership, Madara was supposed to be Hokage after Hashirama, but Izuna's death ended up affecting him more than what was initially portrayed. Hence why the mantle went to Tobirama, Hashirama's little brother. Madara's case is an outlier for why they shouldn't be in power, but that's no excuse to treat them differently. Keep in mind the Nine Tails attack on Konoha was also attributed to the Uchiha Clan, since the beast can be controlled by genjutsu, but was there any reason for them to be treated that way?The village is equally as guilty for the Uchiha dissatisfaction and not everything can be placed on them.

This genetically induced mental disease, which the Uchiha apparently suffered from, also came out of left-field.

But isn't the Mangekyo Sharingan foreshadowing for this? You achieve greater power by killing your loved one/the death of your closest person. I don't think it's that much out of left field.

 

[z.5]

Many of the things Itachi did are not as terrible as they seem because the ninja world is not our world and does not follow our moral code

I am sorry, but I don't believe morality works like that.

Do you believe that the burning of witches, the crucifixion of criminals, the rape of occupied natives, or the keeping of slaves, were moral?
They used to be common practice, but now we deem them immoral.

Did they used to be moral?

No, I don't believe so - it is just now we have a greater understanding of morality.

but no one can possibly justify what he did to Sauce in order to protect him or how he wanted to pull Kotoamatsukami on Sasuke, they were both horrible...

And why not?

If you can justify the brutal murder of a whole clan, why can't you justify Sasuke's mindrape?

In my mind, although reprehensible, it is no worse (in fact, I'd argue the murder of a whole clan is possibly worse).

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 13, 2017, Original Post Date: Oct 13, 2017 ---

Not entirely, the seeds for Itachi not being entirely evil were already planted in part 1. We knew Jiraiya had a spy within the Akatsuki, who else would it be other than Itachi?

We didn't know enough about the workings of Akatsuki to know - it could well have been a ninja within the village of Amegakure. A village which worshiped Pain (the then leader of Akatsuki) as a god.

"I wanted to test my vessel."

Because at that point Itachi was little more than a murdering psychopath.

Is he really that type of a character?

Well, now we know him not to be, but at that point we had no reason not to believe so.

Plus for someone who wants to test out the extent of his abilities, why would he shy away from fighting Jiraiya with Kisame under the guise of "I'm not sure we can even beat him working together."

Because, again, at that point in the manga we had no reason to suspect that they could have beaten Jiraiya (a known member of the Sannin - the elite in Konohagakure).

but that's no excuse to treat them differently.

Again, before the revelation, we had no reason to feel that they ever were 'treated differently'.

Keep in mind the Nine Tails attack on Konoha was also attributed to the Uchiha Clan, since the beast can be controlled by genjutsu

By whom?
Who explicitly said that the Uchiha were responsible, before Itachi was retconned into a 'good' guy?

The village is equally as guilty for the Uchiha dissatisfaction and not everything can be placed on them.

Again, I fail to see how this is possible - and nothing in the manga up to that point ever suggested they had been treated badly, or had ever been dissatisfied.
It was only when the Uchiha Senju story was forced into the manga that these kind of things begun to be introduced.

But isn't the Mangekyo Sharingan foreshadowing for this? You achieve greater power by killing your loved one/the death of your closest person. I don't think it's that much out of left field.

Yes.

Before, MS was just seen as a further stage for the sharingan - it was only later that it was attributed to this neurological disease.

As with all the points above about Itachi being 'less bad' than he appeared initially, it is easy to retcon things into a story.

 

[SirSamuel016]

Voting for Boruto's Dad here because of nostalgia and I find it more appealing than Berserk given all I've read of Berserk was the first couple of pages where iirc Guts was balls deep in... something.

 

[z.5]

Also, in respect to this supposed Uchiha ostracization, no one in the village was seen to treat Sasuke badly (when he was still in the village).
He never showed any evidence of believing people might be.

He was proud of his clan (and when he was fighting in the chuunin exams, people turned out to support him. The citizens were proud that they had the last Uchiha [a powerful clan] and wanted to see him crush all the other village's ninjas).

He was treated with awe and respect (at least by the kids in his school).

Also, we have seen what ostracization looks like in this manga.
It looks like a kid sitting on a swing by himself.
It looks like parents dragging their children away from a school child.
It looks like people whispering behind the kids back, enough that he realizes what is going on and acts up in response.

A kid who hasn't done anything wrong.

A kid whose parents sacrificed themselves and used him as little more than a tool to save the village (he is the reason why their village still exists and they can live in relative peace).

If you are going to try and criticize the citizens of Konohagakure for ostracizing someone, it is their treatment of Naruto which you should be looking at, not their hero-worshiping of the Uchiha.

 

[Hermit]

And why not?

If you can justify the brutal murder of a whole clan, why can't you justify Sasuke's mindrape?

In my mind, although reprehensible, it is no worse (in fact, I'd argue the murder of a whole clan is possibly worse).

I'm not justifying anything, none of those two acts are good, but the end result is the same. The village remains safe. Because that's what being a Shinobi is, unwavering loyalty to your village. Itachi is the perfect example of this, considering he still loved a village that treated him like dirt for saving them from a potential civil war.
Why do you think Sasuke gets an identity crisis after Itachi's second death? A shinobi is a tool that merely exists for the village's safety, Zabuza himself alludes to this in his fight with Kakashi and Team Seven.

No, I don't believe so - it is just now we have a greater understanding of morality.

Fair enough, but you have to admit, there's a thin line between fictional morality and real world morality. The real world has its own moral code, but with fiction the moral code is written depending on the story itself. I don't think you can put the two side and side comparing them. Picture this:
A ninja is supposed to kill everything. I mean Konoha sent HIM to war at the age of 4... and that is A+++ then?

We didn't know enough about the workings of Akatsuki to know - it could well have been a ninja within the village of Amegakure. A village which worshiped Pain (the then leader of Akatsuki) as a god.

Chevkov's Gun doesn't work like that. Admittedly, I also didn't expect that we'd learn more of who the Akatsuki's spy was, but it being Itachi makes perfect narrative sense. Keep in mind Jiraiya even learned Pain's location WITHOUT having ever been to Amegakure. How would a common ninja manage to rat this out? Considering the fact Pain keeps a tight leesh on all his villagers via his rain techique, the spy would have been ratted out ages ago if it was just a common foot soldier.

Because at that point Itachi was little more than a murdering psychopath.

And still an unexplored character in the grand scheme of things. He'd never even murdered anyone before the massacre.

Because, again, at that point in the manga we had no reason to suspect that they could have beaten Jiraiya (a known member of the Sannin - the elite in Konohagakure).

And yet, Orochimaru, another member of the Sannin was also part of the Akatsuki as revealed to us a few chapters earlier. That should have at least given Kisame and the others an inkling of how strong the Akatsuki members were.

By whom?
Who explicitly said that the Uchiha were responsible, before Itachi was retconned into a 'good' guy?

The village leaders at the time, Danzo, Homura and Koharu.
"Following the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox's attack, Konohagakure's leadership council began to suspect that the Uchiha were behind the attack due to the Sharingan's ability to control the beast."

Yes.

Before, MS was just seen as a further stage for the sharingan - it was only later that it was attributed to this neurological disease.

A further stage that depended on love, unlike other power ups in the series that largely required years of training for. I think the implications were pretty clear here imo.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 13, 2017, Original Post Date: Oct 13, 2017 ---

Also, we have seen what ostracization looks like in this manga.
It looks like a kid sitting on a swing by himself.
It looks like parents dragging their children away from a school child.
It looks like people whispering behind the kids back, enough that he realizes what is going on and acts up in response.

A kid who hasn't done anything wrong.

A kid whose parents sacrificed themselves and used him as little more than a tool to save the village (he is the reason why their village still exists and they can live in relative peace).

If you are going to try and criticize the citizens of Konohagakure for ostracizing someone, it is their treatment of Naruto which you should be looking at, not their hero-worshiping of the Uchiha.

Oh, I intend on covering this further along the line
This is why you can't exactly pin down Naruto morality as black or white, and why some of the issues it tackles can honestly be viewed as disturbing

 

[z.5]

Why do you think Sasuke gets an identity crisis after Itachi's second death? A shinobi is a tool that merely exists for the village's safety, Zabuza himself alludes to this in his fight with Kakashi and Team Seven.

Mainly due to the fact that Sasuke isn't really an emotionally stable character and partly due to the poor storytelling of the author.

Fair enough, but you have to admit, there's a thin line between fictional morality and real world morality. The real world has its own moral code, but with fiction the moral code is written depending on the story itself.

I think an interesting manga doesn't suffer this issue.

In fact, an author with a firm grasp on morality often will write a more convincing and compelling narrative – and this, surely, is one of the hallmarks of a good manga (thus it is perfectly reasonable to bring this into discussion when choosing which manga is best in this competition).

A ninja is supposed to kill everything. I mean Konoha sent HIM to war at the age of 4... and that is A+++ then?

No, a ninja is meant to obtain information and solve missions.

If it happens that a 4 year old makes a good spy, you aren't a good guy, but it is at least understandable.

If you are asking a 4 year old to murder people your opponents must be insanely weak, so there's probably a far easier and better method to achieve your aims.

Admittedly, I also didn't expect that we'd learn more of who the Akatsuki's spy was, but it being Itachi makes perfect narrative sense. Keep in mind Jiraiya even learned Pain's location WITHOUT having ever been to Amegakure. How would a common ninja manage to rat this out? Considering the fact Pain keeps a tight leesh on all his villagers via his rain techique, the spy would have been ratted out ages ago if it was just a common foot soldier.

Well, firstly, we knew from the trick which Sasori used on Yūra and Mukade that it was possible to install sleeper agents within one of the most powerful ninja villages – so we knew techniques did exist which could enable the spying on the inner workings of a very powerful group of ninjas.

We also didn't know what Jiraiya had been doing, who he had met, nor where he had been, so there was no reason to suspect he didn't have other ways of finding out information.

We also didn't know that there wasn't a method to bypass Pain's technique – especially not from a ninja as skilled as Jiraiya.

In fact, seeing as they used to be friends, it was possible that Orochimaru could have been Jiraiya's spy. Orochimaru, after all, didn't appear to have any loyalties to Akatsuki. All he cared about was his quest for knowledge.

And still an unexplored character in the grand scheme of things. He'd never even murdered anyone before the massacre.

Ah, so a mass murdering psychopath isn't a mass murdering psychopath until he is revealed to be one then?

Well, that justifies the change in his character's direction then.

And yet, Orochimaru, another member of the Sannin was also part of the Akatsuki as revealed to us a few chapters earlier. That should have at least given Kisame and the others an inkling of how strong the Akatsuki members were.

Yes, but we don't know how much variation there was between Akatsuki members (in fact, we did, we knew that there was quite a large variation) nor between the 3 Sannin.

"Following the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox's attack, Konohagakure's leadership council began to suspect that the Uchiha were behind the attack due to the Sharingan's ability to control the beast."

Is it possible to supply me with a chapter number for this quote?

Was it before or after the Itachi Sasuke fight?

 

[Hermit]

Is it possible to supply me with a chapter number for this quote?

Was it before or after the Itachi Sasuke fight?

After the fight, when Tobi was revealing everything to Sasuke.
From Chapter 399:

Spoiler: Panel 1

Spoiler: Panel 2

 

[z.5]

After the fight, when Tobi was revealing everything to Sasuke.
From Chapter 399:

Spoiler: Panel 1

Spoiler: Panel 2

Yeah, so from the part where the author begun to retcon in the Uchiha Senju storyline.

Exactly where I am stating that Naruto went from being a good manga to a terribad one.

Also, even here, had Kishimoto not decided to go this way (culminating in a magic tree), he could have explained this as Tobi trying to mindfuck Sasuke further - half-lying to him to draw him into attacking Konohagakure.