Voting Round 3 Naruto vs. Berserk

[Hermit]

Also, even here, had Kishimoto not decided to go this way (culminating in a magic tree), he could have explained this as Tobi trying to mindfuck Sasuke further - half-lying to him to draw him into attacking Konohagakure.

I concede on the magic tree point, good stuff man

 

[Jammin]

Yeah, so from the part where the author begun to retcon in the Uchiha Senju storyline.

Exactly where I am stating that Naruto went from being a good manga to a terribad one.

Also, even here, had Kishimoto not decided to go this way (culminating in a magic tree), he could have explained this as Tobi trying to mindfuck Sasuke further - half-lying to him to draw him into attacking Konohagakure.

It could have even been saved at that point.

Like if Sasuke had actually attacked Konohagakure and Naruto had to kill him, or beat him into submission and then have the village assassinate him later behind his back, that would have actually been good. The problem wasn't really that Sasuke turned evil. The problem was that Kishi abandoned, halfway through, the idea that the story was about Naruto. And essentially made his protagonist's core role to be the resident Sasuke apologist.

Bromance > Everything

That was what Kishi was trying to sell us on for the last hundred chapters. Which I got a big problem with. Along with everything Edo Tensei and the giant dumb puddy army. Up until that point though Naruto had been pretty great.

 

[z.5]

Most of us seem to be able to draw a point when Naruto went from being good to being bad (you draw upon the ninja-war, I lean more towards the point immediately after Sasuke had left Orochimaru [when it could have gone in an awesome direction and didn't]).

The main question is, for those who have read both, can people name a similar point in Berserk?

When judging these mangas, I really think it is best to take the manga as a whole. Beginning, middle and end. Although I haven't caught up to the end of Berserk yet (and think there are far superior mangas in this competition), I haven't felt the crushing loss of potential with Berserk as I have with Naruto.

This alone is enough to push me away from voting for Naruto in this competition.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 13, 2017, Original Post Date: Oct 13, 2017 ---

The problem wasn't really that Sasuke turned evil.

It would have been great if he had turned evil - great if he had done so in a logical/realistic way - via progressive steps down that path, rather than a sudden light bulb-esque insta-switch.

The problem was that he, instead, just decided to introduce things - whenever he wanted and with minimal setup or apparent thought - without consideration as to what that would do to the story or the characters who had already been introduced.

The problem was that Kishi abandoned, halfway through, the idea that the story was about Naruto.

That's the issue though. The author didn't just do this to Naruto, he did it to almost everyone.

It was almost as if he found it more exciting to write yet more characters, than expand upon the ones he already had (not a small number by any mangas standards).

 

[Jammin]

Most of us seem to be able to draw a point when Naruto went from being good to being bad (you draw upon the ninja-war, I lean more towards the point immediately after Sasuke had left Orochimaru [when it could have gone in an awesome direction and didn't]).

The main question is, for those who have read both, can people name a similar point in Berserk?

When judging these mangas, I really think it is best to take the manga as a whole. Beginning, middle and end. Although I haven't caught up to the end of Berserk yet (and think there are far superior mangas in this competition), I haven't felt the crushing loss of potential with Berserk as I have with Naruto.

This alone is enough to push me away from voting for Naruto in this competition.

Well he switched editors at some point.Practically speaking that's probably why what happened happened.

The part I point to as the event horizon was the end of the Kage Summit arc specifically.

It would have been great if he had turned evil - great if he had done so in a logical/realistic way.

That was never in the cards. There are many things I will say are great about Naruto. Sasuke was never one of them. He was a dumb style over substance character almost from day one.

Certainly from the Chuunen exam onward.

That's the issue though. The author didn't just do this to Naruto, he did it to almost everyone.

It was almost as if he found it more exciting to write yet more characters, than expand upon the ones he already had (not a small number by any mangas standards).

Truth. Poor Sakura and Nenji..

 

[z.5]

That was never in the cards.

Sure, and although I said

it would have been great

I mainly meant in respect to him doing it progressively and logically (perhaps I was asking for too much?).

For me, Naruto's 'love' for Sasuke (and wanting to save him), could easily have been chalked up to Konohagakure wanting to track down and kill Sasuke (due to their archaic laws on ninjas leaving the village) and Naruto empathizing with Sasuke and wanting to save him from Konohagakure - by bringing him back to the village and convincing the leaders for leniency.

Now that I write that, had it ended with Naruto bringing Sasuke back (after he had taken his revenge on Itachi [still a bad guy in my rewriting]) and the village trying and executing Sasuke. Followed by the Naruto flipping out and finally going full 9 tails, before being killed (last panel being his dead body next to Sasuke's), I believe it could have been an insanely epic and poignant end to the manga.


Not sure many mangas (especially not Shonen Jump ones) would want to end on such a tragic event though.

There are many things I will say are great about Naruto. Sasuke was never one of them. He was dumb style over substance character almost from day one.

Preach on brother!

I have rarely been a fan of 'cool' characters (cool in all the wrong ways).

 

[The President]

The only sad thing about this story is how it ruined a perfectly good villain, by trying to justify the murder of innocents.

Nothing he did was 'heroic'.

He killed children and non-military personnel (Uchiha's who were not ninjas, but were just shop owners [etc.]), who were hardly likely to 'rise up and drag the village into a civil war' (to be honest, there was no evidence that even the ninjas in the Uchiha clan were all behind this plot).

He mentally traumatized his brother – corrupting him almost enough to, in turn, murder his best friends (and other innocents).

He worked for a criminal organization and was involved in the capture and murder of other [for all we know] innocent people (unless you are going to justify the capture of other jinchuriki – many of which were forced to have tailed creatures forced into them [they deserve far more sympathy in this story than Itachi]).

I voted for Berserk here but I do want to address this point.

What Itachi did was for what he viewed as the greater good. The uprising theme was addressed by kishimoto in the Pain arc. Pain clearly explains that hatred will always exist and from it there will always be rebellion and war. This clearly established that in the world of Naruto, leaving any Uchiha alive would eventually lead to conflict as Nagato described it.

Itachi was never painted as a good guy either, he simply does what he thinks is right (which might not necessarily be right). He loves his brother and he loves Konoha, he probably couldn't give a rats ass about anything that does't tie into those two. Hes a murderer through and through much like pretty much any other shinobi, but hes a murderer who still has his own set of morals. Itachi is pretty much Severus Snape in a nut shell, and easily the most well crafted character in Naruto.

That said I do agree with your general point that Kishimoto destroys his villains. Tobi being the prime example of a character who had potential to be one of the most memorable villains in manga, but ended up being......one of the most memorable villains in manga for all the wrong reasons. And Nagato, who provided us with one hell of an argument that pushed the MC to the point of being speechless, but then conceded to the retort of just trust me in one of the most bafflingly dumb conversions I've ever seen. Orochimaru is another terribly misused main antagonist, going from being an iconic villain and a display of how to do "bad for the sake of being bad" right, to falling as low as becoming comedic relief (which is just extremely cringy).I am almost certain that none of the Berserk villains will fall as low as these terribly executed main villains did.

 

[Zasz]

There were many good things about Naruto and certainly some characters were part of them, but after some time, it almost felt like Kishimoto-sensei had forgotten about some of them, to the point that he even made them the caricatures of themselves...
Hence Berserk is the only victor here.

 

[Dunno1978]

Berserk, for the sake of maturity and adulthood.

 

[z.5]

What Itachi did was for what he viewed as the greater good.

Sure, he may have 'thought' that (as, if so, he was obviously somewhat delusional), however, the fact that everyone else (who had a say in dealing with the Uchiha 'threat') also thought so was, in my mind, either bad storytelling, or them being moronic (and by extension bad storytelling).

The uprising theme was addressed by kishimoto in the Pain arc. Pain clearly explains that hatred will always exist and from it there will always be rebellion and war.

Pain was a villain who suffered from a severely traumatic upbringing. Only, unlike Itachi, his idea of generating peace through pure power was at least somewhat believable. It is comparable to the Mutually Assured Destruction idea which was prevalent during the cold war.

This clearly established that in the world of Naruto, leaving any Uchiha alive would eventually lead to conflict as Nagato described it.

Nagato, was also somewhat naïve in this respect – and was proven wrong by Sasuke's eventual turn 'to the light side'.

Itachi is pretty much Severus Snape in a nut shell

Severus wouldn't have murdered everyone in Hogwarts to stop Voldemort.

easily the most well crafted character in Naruto.

This, if true, is possibly the most depressing thing about the whole manga.

His character was a badly cobbled together mess of bad moral decisions, an excess of power, and a lot of 'cool' manga panels.

Tobi being the prime example of a character who had potential to be one of the most memorable villains in manga, but ended up being......one of the most memorable villains in manga for all the wrong reasons. And Nagato, who provided us with one hell of an argument that pushed the MC to the point of being speechless, but then conceded to the retort of just trust me in one of the most bafflingly dumb conversions I've ever seen. Orochimaru is another terribly misused main antagonist, going from being an iconic villain and a display of how to do "bad for the sake of being bad" right, to falling as low as becoming comedic relief (which is just extremely cringy).

Tobi was an uninteresting addition... but saying that, let's deal with the villains then.

Orochimaru started out as a villain with a rather less used goal. He desired knowledge for knowledge's sake and was willing to do whatever he could to reach his end goal. He wasn't interested in power (as seen by him not bothering with Naruto, even though he knew Naruto had the most powerful tailed beast inside of him), but would rather try and convert Sasuke as the sharingan's ability to copy techniques was the most suitable for his goals (even the more powerful rinnegan wasn't as exciting to him, or else he may have tried harder on Nagato [when Jiraiya, instead, went out of his way to teach them]).
He was offscrened by Sasuke.

He was superseded (kinda) by another rather interesting villain – Pain.
Pain had literally seen his family, town (and probably friends) murdered in a war between ninjas (Konohagakure being involved even). He wanted to bring peace through overwhelming power (capturing the tailed beasts). He was delusional, but believably so. He knew Akatsuki were evil, but he'd use them to achieve piece, because (unlike Itachi), he had suffered true suffering and had seen his country abused by stronger powers.
Better yet, as Orochimaru had left Akatsuki, there was a legitimate reason to play him and Pain off against each other – without removing Orochimaru (and the effort made on establishing his character) instantly from the story.
He was beaten by oh-speaking-to-you-for-5-minutes-has-completely-changed-my-whole-outlook-on-life-no-jutsu.

Following him was Tobi. He came out of nowhere and his reasons were... Rin?
He was beaten by a character who should never have been in the manga to begin with.

Then we kind of have Kabuto – 'kind of' as Tobi really couldn't have done anything much without the zombie army (ugh!) and the fact that Kabuto was really working for his own goals (whatever they were...). That said, Kabuto was never destined to be anything more than a servant to Orochimaru...
Beaten by Uchiha-power-no-jutsu.

After that, Madara? Again, no real reasons for him other than Uchiha power!!!!
Establishing the bullshit Senju Uchiha Rinnegan bullshit.
Looking cool.
He was a villain which, other than a little history, kinda came out of [and should stayed well within] nowhere.
Beaten by hax bs (but seeing as he was hax bs, I am not complaining too much).

Then... 10 tails/godtree – literally, what the fuck was up with that?!?
Beaten by Tobi of all people...

Following that, we have an incredibly brief stop from a woman who ate a piece of fruit.

(should never have been in the manga to begin with - oh, that said, she wasn't in it to begin with... perhaps she should have stayed that way).

The order may be a tad wrong, but that's pretty much it.

Orochimaru was cool. Pain opened up posibilities for Naruto to go in new and exciting directions, whilst (importantly) keeping to the general theme of the manga. Then, overpowered and uninteresting villain after overpowered and even less interesting villains.

Nayce

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 13, 2017, Original Post Date: Oct 13, 2017 ---

Perhaps I should clarify something - I really don't hate Naruto.
Not really.

I used to really enjoy it - THAT is the issue I have.

It's easy to vote on nostalgia - like I did for dragonball - where fond memories can easily overpower solid arguments for the other manga it is competing against.

What's truly bad is when you have to, week after week, watch a world you used to enjoy tear itself apart.
Watch an author, who doesn't appear to care about his characters, introduce more and more new characters at the expense of the ones he already has.
Watch them destroy all reason within their villains (and all critical thinking), replacing it with overpowered technique after overpowered technique.
Watch him do the same to the main character also...

For him to have so little respect for his creations almost hurts people who did.

Villains like Orochimaru and Pain were well designed, interesting, and stood to push the 2 main characters ('cause let's face it, he wanted to make Sasuke a main) in interesting ways. To do what many villains don't and make a protagonist actually think.

I dunno what led to him dramatically changing direction. I really feel it was a huge error.

If you guys like Naruto, like the story, enjoy villains like Madara and Obito - then more power to you.
Who am I to tell you that you are wrong.

That said, I will (as I am sure you have realised) tell you guys where I feel the story went wrong.
Where I believe it's narrative choices were less less clever and complex than you may suggest them to be.
Why I believe Naruto doesn't deserve to beat a manga like Berserk.

 

[Skylent]

Hum. This is a harder choice than I expected.

Though Berserk is better in term of art, depth and overall plot; (Especially in the theme, which is not hard when Naruto has violated its own morals. And several times at that) I find Naruto's characters in general more palatable.

And characters tend to have the most impact in term of enjoyability for me.

 

[Aizen]

There were many good things about Naruto and certainly some characters were part of them, but after some time, it almost felt like Kishimoto-sensei had forgotten about some of them, to the point that he even made them the caricatures of themselves...
Hence Berserk is the only victor here.

Pretty much this. One of the things I pay a lot of attention to nowadays when I read something is how pound for pound the characters are used. What I have come to the conclusion of is that while no series is perfect in this regard, and "how well used" they are is VERY subjective, I think a lot of series tend to waste sometimes close to half their cast by not giving them any proper development or value as the series progresses. Naruto completely abandons a large portion of the Konoha 11 in the second half. Which to me is a sad sight, considering how well done they were overall in the first half. This is by no means exclusive to Naruto, as I think pretty much every one of the big three and many others have this problem to a degree. It becomes quantity over quality, which I personally don't think is ever good unless you are really going for comedy (in which case personalities and such are good enough many times).

 

[Hermit]

Theme 2
War
This is a theme that doesn't exactly become prevalent until later on in the series, but I think the way the foundation for it was laid from Part 1 was pretty well done for what it was worth Plus this is probably one of the more mature themes that the series tackled, which is why I want to bring it out in this post. But to do that, I first need to bring your attention to a special group of individuals:

1.0: The Jinchuuriki

These guys.....were probably the root cause of every major arc in the series, whether directly or indirectly. The Akatsuki who I had mentioned earlier based their objectives around these individuals, because as plain as they look, they're actually more valuable than your run of the mill ninja.
A Jinchuuriki is a human vessel, who has a Tailed Beast sealed within them. Tailed Beasts being some of the most powerful creatures in the verse, it would stand to reason why their powers would be coveted. In some ways, it's reminiscent of the Bloodline Limits that Haku and some of the Hidden Mist clans possessed.
But the sad truth, is unlike the Bloodline Limit wielders, Jinchuuriki are merely seen as a means to an end, as the Tailed Beasts within them are viewed as weapons, only necessary in times of war. A good example of this would be Kirigakure planting the Three Tails within Rin Nohara, and planning to unleash it within Konohagakure once she had arrived there after being safely 'retrieved' by Kakashi and his team:

Now, I want you to take a moment here to realize that this is barely a teenage girl, someone who hasn't even had the chance to live out their lives in full, yet they have the unfortunate advantage of being selected to harbor this beast within them, where their lives are directly intertwined. Once the Tailed Beast is extracted, that means the vessel's life is forfeit. The beast itself doesn't exactly die, but in the event that it dies, it simply gets reincarnated into the world a few decades later. Which is a pretty impressive concept I have to admit, but, they're not the ones getting the short end of the stick here. I'll touch on a few of these individuals here:

Naruto Uzumaki

​

Spoiler: Jinchuuriki status

Our show's protagonist , who also has the priviledge of harboring the Nine Tails inside him. The beast was sealed inside him the moment he was born, half of its power sealed in his father Minato, as it would be impossible for an infant to hold all that power inside him. The Fourth intended on Naruto being viewed as a hero for the village, but alas, the opposite happened. Shunned and rejected by almost everyone in the village, to the point that he LITERALLY had to start pranking them to get their attention, Naruto learned later on about the beast that lived inside him, suddenly realizing why everyone ignored him. Even the parents of his peers warned them against playing with him, while the Third Hokage didn't exactly pay Naruto much heed, despite the Fourth's wishes for his own son.

Gaara

Spoiler: Jinchuuriki status

I had touched a little on him earlier in the first thread, though, what I didn't bring to light was the fact that he was the Jinchuuriki for the One Tail, the Sand's own Tailed Beast. It was sealed in him while he was still in his mother's womb, which caused him to be birthed prematurely, an incident that led to the untimely death of his mother at his own hands.
Gaara was raised in isolation during his early life, taught ninjutsu by his father and cared for by his maternal uncle, Yashamaru. When he was allowed to roam around the village, Gaara would try to connect with the villagers, being kind to them and offering them any assistance he could. However, being a jinchūriki made the villagers frightened of Gaara; adults avoided him and, when they couldn't, treated him delicately while children would run from him on sight. Gaara would try to assure them he meant no harm, but in the process would inadvertently injure or even kill them with his sand powers.
Due to his singular focus on himself, Gaara eventually learned to reign in his powers and became the lethal weapon of destruction Suna wanted him to be, prompting his father to stop trying to kill him and instead find a use for him.

Killer Bee

Spoiler: Jinchuuriki status

I had also touched earlier on him a little, so I'll use this to expand on his Jinchuuriki status a little. He is one of the two Jinchuuriki of the Hidden Cloud Village (The other one being Nii Yugito), serving as the host for the 8 Tails. Unlike Gaara and Naruto though, he became the Jinchuuriki of the 8 Tails at the age of 5.

Spoiler: Jinchuuriki status

Remember what Sasuke said in the first Valley of the End fight? Is it worse to know love and lose it, or to never know love at all? Bee's "big brother jinchuriki" talked about this:Nobody ever looks at you the same again.
Bee wasn't alone from the start, but that's what makes it worse. You start to wonder what you have become. People try to act like nothing has changed, but it has. This is why the Tailed Beasts of the Cloud seemingly always rampage. And I see that as more noble, because Sasuke totally had a point.

These three are the Jinchuuriki who I feel encapsulate the tragic lives these vessels live, solely needed whenever the village is at war or in conflict with other villages (E.g the Invasion of Konoha by the Sand and Sound, a plan in which Gaara was the most pivotal piece), but otherwise? They aren't even treated like decent human beings. Now, with the other Jinchuuriki, most of the stuff shown was anime only, so I'm not exactly sure whether that can be used for argument's sake here, though, I will gift you with these sweet panels:

Spoiler: Panel 1

Spoiler: Panel 2

Spoiler: Naruto and Gaara

Spoiler: Gaara and his father

Spoiler: Naruto and the Four Tails

Spoiler: Killer Bee in Tailed Beast Mode

Oh, and for the record, my favorite Jinchuuriki are these 2 :

​

​

 

[Brandish μ]

I voted for Berserk (sorry Emperor Spriggan).

Berserk is actually the first manga I read; Naruto was after. Found it exciting all the way up to Rinne dvbwvafnkwvbjwdj Tensei. The only thing I don't like about Berserk is hiatuses, which aren't too big a deal personally.

 

[Gut's is the man]

I voted for Berserk (sorry Emperor Spriggan).

Berserk is actually the first manga I read; Naruto was after. Found it exciting all the way up to Rinne dvbwvafnkwvbjwdj Tensei. The only thing I don't like about Berserk is hiatuses, which aren't too big a deal personally.

how the hell did that happen.

 

[Demonspeed]

I voted for Berserk (sorry Emperor Spriggan).

Berserk is actually the first manga I read; Naruto was after. Found it exciting all the way up to Rinne dvbwvafnkwvbjwdj Tensei. The only thing I don't like about Berserk is hiatuses, which aren't too big a deal personally.

Berserk as first manga... I find it weird for some reason .

 

[Brandish μ]

how the hell did that happen.

Berserk as first manga... I find it weird for some reason .

Why?

I'm sure, like a lot of you, anime came a long time before manga...

 

[The President]

Sure, he may have 'thought' that (as, if so, he was obviously somewhat delusional), however, the fact that everyone else (who had a say in dealing with the Uchiha 'threat') also thought so was, in my mind, either bad storytelling, or them being moronic (and by extension bad storytelling).

Nah, its just establishing and keeping true to one of the central themes of the story. It was established that one of the things that plague the Narutoverse is the constant hatred bred from war. So maintaining that logic, there would be an uchiha (or multiple) that would grow up to seek revenge on those that killed their parents (since at the very least, the conspirators would have to die). More importantly, you seem to forget that Itachi did not have much of a choice in the matter, if he had not done it, all the uchihas including his brother would have been killed regardless. At this point you can take all this unnecessary bashing of Itachis intelligence (and morals) and put it on Danzo.

But Kishimoto was trying to make Danzo a shady ass character with extremely questionable morals. So at that point I dont think you have an argument at all on the matter.

Nagato, was also somewhat naïve in this respect – and was proven wrong by Sasuke's eventual turn 'to the light side'.

Hardly, Sasuke is more of an exception to the rule, and its not like he did not do a shit ton of damage from his vengeance before actually converting back. Not to mention, we are going to have threats coming in Boruto, so naturally this hatred thing never ended.

Severus wouldn't have murdered everyone in Hogwarts to stop Voldemort.

If everyone at Hogwarts was going to get murdered anyways then yes, he would.

 

[Holt]

I'll be frank, this is only tough for me because of Naruto nostalgia. But then again, this war doesn't necessarily mean voting the better manga (storywise). It's voting your favorite which doesn't necessarily have to be the best. For me, Naruto left a bigger impact despite its ending. And it doesn't help that Berserk is extremely inconsistent with its releases. I started it very late, probably only a year or 2 now, (3 at most), and I already feel the impact of its hiatus. It's numbing, especially because it becomes rather tough remembering little details of previous chapters/events which in turn adds to New ones. It was absolutely amazing when I first read berserk, but now, besides major events, I barely remember other things without needing to reread or read up some text first, and it's not a case of bad memory. I could look at some panels and go wow, that was in berserk..and it barely rings a bell to which scene it was. Basically, it dulls the greatness of the manga. Here debates can easily be made on Naruto. Easily. We could literally go on and on about it despite the fact it ended roughly the same time ago and without needing to reread a single panel or chapter. Heck, pretty much everyone can recite the events that happened from beginning to end as of now, but berserk, well, too much inconsistency with the releases makes it difficult to remember certain events, much less piece them all together as well as one should.

Anyway tl;dr I'll always agree Naruto went rather badly towards the end. I think most (probably all) who followed it will agree with this as well. It was once extremely good too, and most of the frustration comes from what it could have been if it stuck with its earlier level. But well, it remains a treasured manga for me. I'd vote a lot of others over it regardless, definitely would have voted Berserk if it's releases were more sensible, but not as it is currently. Also, the community here was incredible during naruto's run. The debates were always lively, so bonus points haha.

Tl;dr(2) I'm voting Naruto XD

 

[kkck]

Voted berserk. I have not read berserk nor plan to. But naruto is a horrible character who got everything handed to him via his genes rather than hard work, he married a character best described as a blank and his son needs to be exorcised via fire. And the worst part is that the manga tries to pretend naruto worked hard even though the bulk of what he accomplished is solely due to his genes, then it pretends hinata has a personality and then it has the gal to pretend naruto's son who is born with even better god genes than naruto can make anything vaguely resembling a decent character.

 

[z.5]

Nah, its just establishing and keeping true to one of the central themes of the story. It was established that one of the things that plague the Narutoverse is the constant hatred bred from war. So maintaining that logic, there would be an uchiha (or multiple) that would grow up to seek revenge on those that killed their parents (since at the very least, the conspirators would have to die).

The main theme being overcoming one's natural talent with hard work and persistence – a theme which it threw to the wayside on more than one occasion.

As far as villages went, it was established early on that Konohagakure was overly moral and just. Kakashi seemed disgusted by the hidden mist's final graduation ceremony, for example.

The villages were going out of their way to try and find other ways to maintain peace (such as the chuunin exams having students from multiple villages) – and even when a fight did happen, it was down to an external influence (Orochimaru) not the actual leaders of the village.

If Konohagakure had actually tried dialogue with the Uchiha, those who weren't tried and [probably] punished for plotting a revolution, they may have had some success.

Jiraiya tried with Nagato, and his friends, and did have success – till he idiotically left them alone...

More importantly, you seem to forget that Itachi did not have much of a choice in the matter, if he had not done it, all the uchihas including his brother would have been killed regardless.

Because Itachi (and Hiruzen, who also didn't want to kill the Uchiha) wasn't powerful enough, or smart enough to find a third solution?

At this point you can take all this unnecessary bashing of Itachis intelligence (and morals) and put it on Danzo. But Kishimoto was trying to make Danzo a shady ass character with extremely questionable morals. So at that point I dont think you have an argument at all on the matter.

No, you may buy that argument – but it doesn't mean that the rest of us have to also.

Also, at the end of the day, it was Itachi, not Danzou, who pulled the trigger.
Itachi, not Danzou, who killed all the Uchiha children (not to mention the rest of them).

He was far from being morally clean.

Hardly, Sasuke is more of an exception to the rule, and its not like he did not do a shit ton of damage from his vengeance before actually converting back. Not to mention, we are going to have threats coming in Boruto, so naturally this hatred thing never ended.

No, he just invaded a foreign nation – risking a war between 2 of the most powerful nations, which would have led to massive casualties.

Captured a guy who had done nothing to him – knowing full well that Bee would be killed as the Hachibi was extracted.

Murdered innocents (such as the samurai) who had nothing to do with forcing Itachi to kill the Uchiha...

Boruto isn't Naruto. If it were, I may have even more reasons to complain than I currently do have.

If everyone at Hogwarts was going to get murdered anyways then yes, he would.

But I don't buy that they would die anyway – nor that he would be able to bring himself to do that to all the kids.
If so, he is really hardly better than Voldemort, at that point.

Look, even if what you said was valid – it still doesn't deal with my argument.

I am not arguing that the Uchiha didn't plan a revolution, nor that they weren't going to be killed anyway.
The revolution plot was stated in the story (thus it happened) and the leadership of Konohagakure had already been shown to be rather inept, sinister, power-hungry, and prone to making poor decisions.

I am arguing that the whole revolution story shouldn't have been in there anyway – and not only because it was established that villages would do whatever they could to gain power (from trying to kidnap, then lie, to get a Byakugan, to forcing tailed beasts into children) – to try and kill off one of your strongest clans is tactically a rather poor plan.

But rather that, that part of the story was bluntly retconned in.

As I said before, you might have enjoyed that aspect of Naruto, I did not.

But, trying to argue with me about how it makes perfect sense to the story – following it's introduction to the story after Itachi's death, is irrelevant.