Voting Round 3 Naruto vs. Berserk

[The President]

The Uchiha were taken out within the course of a single night.

Sure, there were strong Uchiha in the village, who would have been harder to kill, but the majority were probably children, the elderly, and people who weren't mission-experienced expert battle-hardened ninja.

Also, look how long it took for the Sand village attack to get cleaned up. It is likely that they brought some of their strongest ninjas to that fight (they brought Gaara, their only jinchurichi, ffs) and it was over in an afternoon.

The Uchiha would have been having to fight every clan within Konohagakure.

Best I could see them doing would be a tactical retreat.

The Uchiha were sleeping, thats a key factor. And Obito helped. Itachi was a master of stealth, he literally went house by house assassinating everyone. Tobi probably took care of the guards on patrol. Sunas attack was made when literally all of Konohas forces were gathered, so they essentially too on the full might of Konoha with whatever they managed to sneak in and the Sound nins. The uchiha likely had a strategy akin to what Danzo/Itachi pulled on them.

Firstly, the leaders in Konoha knew what the Uchiha were plotting (due to Itachi) and were always knew their plans 1 step ahead of them.

Secondly, the Uchiha probably understood that there was no way they could trust any of the other countries.

Also, they probably wondered what the point in trying to brutally overthrow one leader, to sell yourselves into subservience to another, would be.

For the first point, they had absolutely no idea about anything regarding Itachi. For the second and third points, its happened plenty of times in real life (mostly with slaves who would ask for the opposing power to lend them weapons so that they could help), I dont see why it wouldn't happen here.

Danzo's actions were pure plot convenience – they don't impact on the integrity [in a narrative sense] of his overall character at all, in my opinion.

And Itachis does? Even though his circumstances are far more justifiable then Danzos?

Not that I think anyone other then the Uchiha rebels were idiots.

Someone who is asking a 13 year old boy to kill his family (and trusts him to do as much).

It appears that in the Naruto world, children grow up fast. They are given much greater responsibility at a much younger age.

Of course they would trust the opinion of a Uchiha, when they are trying to plan out a horrific genocide on the Uchiha – through the use of that said Uchiha.

He knows his clan best.

He knows how they think, what they are likely to do, what they desire, who they are, better than anyone else.

A proficient pawn and killer doesn't at all translate into someone who has the authority to contest or intervene into the arguments of the figure heads of the village.

Asking someone to leak information about their family and asking them to brutalize their family are 2 different things.

Not when leaking the information will directly lead to the massacre of the entire clan in one way or another and he is full aware of that fact.

Well, Hiruzen, the defacto leader, certainly did discuss with Itachi.

What did he discuss with him? I recall nothing other then the promise to keep Sasuke safe from harm.

He was duped into murdering his girlfriend, his friends and family.

We have very different definitions of duped here lol.

His ineffectual nature meant that it isn't possible to say what he was thinking.
Had he wanted to, arresting Danzo would have been possible, as would arresting the Uchiha leaders.

Arresting the Uchiha leaders would have led to nothing but even more resentment. And that decision would turn on him ten folds. I wonder if arresting Danzo was as easy as you make it out to be. Danzo is someone who had considerable influence himself, and technically he hadn't done any direct crime either.

As for 'saving his younger brother' – he knew he couldn't trust Danzo in this either. He'd have been better taking Sasuke with him and mind-fucking him into thinking something else happened (thus having to flee), had he really wanted to ensure Sasuke's safety from Danzo.

But then the Civil war would have happened regardless, and even more casualties would have arisen then needed, at worst the entirety of Konoha getting flattened by another super power. He also had the hokages word that Sasuke would be protected. And the reason he continued on living was to make sure that the elders respected their end of the bargain, even going to konoha personally as to warn the elders that just because Hiruzen is gone does not mean their end of the bargain is finished (this was stated in the manga).

There are many things he could have done.

Well the one you listed here was definitely not an option.

Hell, he could have told the Uchiha who were living happily in the city and the regular civilians about the plot.

Most definitely not an option, since they would obviously tell the conspirators (which seemed to be the entire police force) and that would only escalate things.

The third would have been able to get ANBU/ninja there ready (had Itachi prewarned him).

For the attack? That wouldnt result in anything short of the bulk of the Uchiha getting arrested, which, as I stated previously really would not do anything short of delay the inevitable. Also, at that point he would loose favour of the Uchiha, so he wouldnt even be in the position to stop or anticipate the next rebellion. Which would only make things worse.

The fight might happen, but it would have been brief, the Uchiha could have been captured alive (there are numerous techniques shown in the series to do as much), tried – fairly, and the rest of the Uchiha would have seen justice prevail.

Sure, but are you honestly suggesting the Uchihas get tried and thats the end of it? This leads back to the Pain point, it wouldnt end there. Another rebellion would occur again guaranteed. This is a world in which all the countries have a joint alliance, and there are still seemingly a bunch of villains trying to start shit.

@Jammin Those dont correlate. FT had quite a ton of discussion going about it, that doesnt make it even remotely good. Especially not when the discussion is about how bad something in the series is.

 

[MasterKurosawa]

I would agree, OP is the best with that aspect, due to as you said having a format that can allow it at least partially. All the same, it still has an issue of having tons of fodder characters, that only really have value in their abilities they have. I mean you gotta admit Oda re-uses a lot of archetypes, the princesses one has been done who knows how many times now lol. I do give OP a bit more leeway here, due to the fact it is the most lighthearted of the big three, and therefore it goes for more personality and goofiness from the characters than actual serious messages. It still does get serious a fair bit though. I think it would only be better for the series if Oda lowered the number of characters a bit, and focused on existing ones or the few new ones he does have to introduce. We don't need 10 elites for every group, this trope for the majority of shonen (and some seinen) series gets out of hand imo. It really only leads to less well-developed characters when all is said and done in most cases.

Oh, certainly, I won´t deny that. There are only so many characters can make before redoing them, and I certainly pray that he won´t introduce us to all 70 or so kids of Big Mom. I simply meant to single OP out from the crowd of the "big three". The one positive to it is that Oda is great at introducing new abilities and devil fruits, so at the very least there are always a couple good single and group fights. As such, I don´t think it´s particularly problematic to introduce characters for the sake of fights, it just gets annoying when he tries to give each a backstory, thinning out the development he could have given to a smaller cast. Just drawing their designs and giving them abilities should be enough to spice up fights, while otherwise treating the lesser important ones more like how other manga treat their faceless villain mooks. One might consider that a waste of a design I suppose, but it would help clear up some of the repetitiveness while not losing out in the chaotic fun that is a trademark of One Piece.

 

[Aizen]

It's kind of a strong case for Naruto that just discussing how, where, and why it was bad generates a conversation as in depth as this one is going.

Never seen anything like this for Bersek. Griffith is a bishi prick. End of story.

My two cents on Itachi and the Uchiha's, for whatever it's worth, is that the character and concept started out pretty good. Back when he was a villain he was pretty cool. The problem was that the climax of his character arc didn't really make a lot of sense. With how he treated Sasuke combined with how he supposedly felt about Sasuke combined with what he wanted Sasuke to do. Those three things just didn't mix together very well. Which was probably because he was being used as all purpose plot device for a while there. And the more Kishi tried to twist the character into the "good guy" role the more it didn't mesh with his already established background. So he started good but ended up as kind of a mess.

As for the Uchiha clan that whole thing was a disaster of a train wreck of a dumpster fire. Which I think is pretty clearly the result of multiple layers of retcons dog piling onto each other. To start with Kishi cast them as victims of Itachi. Then he recast them as victims of Kohoha. Then recast them as victims of circumstance. Then finally recast them as victims of fate. I don't believe for a second that mess was an intentional story telling plan. Kishi just kept going back to that well and retconning the origin every time he needed to motivate or attempt to justify Sasuke and twisted web of nonsense that is the Uchiha storyline in Naruto is the result.

Really? I have seen tons of very in-depth conversations for Berserk. The series has far more layers to talk about than Naruto (at least in my eyes), simply because its themes are more mature, dynamic, and meaningful. Obviously, you can talk about any series in-depth though. The fact that Naruto is the main topic here hardly means anything, in fact, it shows how divisive it was in some ways with the choices Kishimoto made. I won't deny its impact on some, however.

That said I will throw my two cents in too with the Itachi point. I actually don't have an issue with Itachi. To me, he is one of the most well crafted overall characters in Naruto. His character arc may not have been perfect with all the logic surrounding it, but Naruto as a series has a lot of that anyways. The panel time he did get was interesting, and his backstory did have a ton of impact and meaning when compared to many of the others in Naruto. I don't actually think defined morality in a series is always necessary, but beyond that, Itachi was very clearly put into an impossible choice here and I like the moral dilemma he got with that. Not saying he is a great guy or anything of the sort, but he made a call that he thought was for the best with conviction. A lot more than you can say for many characters in Naruto like Pain, who basically undid everything he accomplished, despite him also being a solid villain generally in my eyes.

 

[z.5]

Considering how you went on to bash several major characters in Naruto, care to explain this comment? I do think Berserk´s characters are vastly superior to whatever Naruto produced in its runtime.

Love to.

I say that they were more interesting due to them having, what I perceive to be:
A better aesthetic – with lots of scrolls, kunai (giant throwing stars), interesting features and decals which are commonly associated with ninjas.

More interesting backstories – for the ones which did receive as much.

More interesting powers and skills.

I bash them and also agree that Berserk's characters are in general superior, due to what was done with the characters – how they were treated after creation. The way they think and act.

I can see that perhaps I could have appeared quite misleading with my initial statement (upon a 2nd reading one could easily think that I prefer the characters in Naruto to those in Berserk. That isn't true. Only, if Miura had worked with the characters from Naruto, and Kishimoto with the characters from Berserk, Miura's story would be far, far, superior.

If anything, this might have ensured that the remaining Uchihas wouldn´t act up anymore. I an alternative world, the planned revolt followed by the arrest of its leaders might have led to the Uchiha clan losing its position of trust in Konoha, in turn causing them to be surveilled and shamed for what happened. They would´ve wanted to atone for that and restore their honour, which could´ve led to Sasuke, witnessing the suffering of his fellow clansman and especially his mother, pursuing Itachi, Danzo´s killer, in order to prove that their clan was loyal to Konoha after all, only to uncover Danzo´s own plans.

Sorry, I am somewhat confused, are you agreeing with me that there were other ways to stop the (what I see to be unethical and severely misguided) massacre?

I am not sure that they would have lost trust, not if they didn't go along with the coup attempt.

That said, who knows, this is a village which severely mistreated a child for his whole life and brought up their children to do so also – solely due to his father and mother saving the village by trapping a demon (which wants to take over his body) inside him.

Even if Sasuke had gone off the rails like that, it would have been far superior storytelling than how he was treated in the actual story. It would be easier to explain, could have been more gradual, and would have left numerous possibilities open for the story to progress naturally into.

And you´re a monster. Again, not sure about what happens after, but I dare you to tell me a manga far superior to Berserk´s golden age arc.

A monster?!?

heh

Sure, choosing from this competition alone, I personally find FMA to be superior.

I'm… not really sure what the point of it all would have been with that kind of ending though. Perhaps I´m and idiot and completely missing it, and I do not mean to defend Naruto´s actual ending, but what would have been the message in such an ending?

Not an idiot. It would be a different kind of story altogether – a tragedy.

Empathy is wrong? Naruto was a fool who couldn´t believe his dear friend changed? Konoha is evil and Naruto was born to suffer under them? Really, under different circumstances/a complete rewrite it might be a great ending, but not with the kind of portrayal Naruto got as rising star and pacifist, something that was not ever shown as something bad or misguided on his part.

It would have been a way to highlight his innocence. Even through it all, he never gave up on Sasuke. He wasn't a fool, per se. but rather the whole ninja system wasn't made with 'pacifist' in mind. The idea that he could change such a system, although highly commendable, was naïve.

It would leave on a sad note, but would make people empathize with Naruto all the more.

Some of the best stories are tragedies – not all have to fall into the hero saving everyone, solving all the world's problems, changing everyone's minds...

Whether or not he was misguided in reality is one thing, but suddenly switching to an ending that built on something not shown in the manga would be inconsistent.

Oh don't get me wrong. As I pointed out, it was hardly the kind of ending for a story which was to be published in Shounen Jump.

It was more what I would have personally enjoyed, then what I think would realistically happen.

Same for Konohagakure. Though the village´s leaders may have made many mistakes, their overall portrayal was positive as well, which would then beg the question of why they would lead to both MC´s deaths.

To make a point?

Because Sasuke committed a lot of crimes whilst hunting down Itachi?

Because Sasuke left the village, breaking some fundamental law (due to this risking Konohagakure's secrets getting out)?

Because, upon the Third's death, they fell into corruption?

I dunno – I am just throwing ideas at the wall.
It isn't like the rest of the manga wouldn't have been drastically changed before that point, it wouldn't be unfeasible to find a way which it could have been brought into the story, in a natural manner.

I can easily see Berserk ending on a bittersweet note – in fact, I hope it does.
I guess being Seinen does give you more leeway in this regard.

EDIT: Well, in any case, sup guys, newbie here. Was a lurker for a while though, and just wanted to comment on Berserk because hey, Berserk.

Welcome to the forums bud.

And images don´t work. Probably because I suck. Oh well.

How not?
You using the image button, then linking to the actual image on the website (rather than the website itself)?

I am sure we can help out if you need assistance.

 

[Jammin]

This was precisely my point in earlier post. The impact it made on pretty much everyone that read it is enormous even when it got bad. IMO, it did a pretty great job in that aspect, even if the story itself lacked. And this is why I still vote for it.

Alright @Emperor Spriggan I'm on the edge of voting for Naruto here but before I can do that you need to sooth the pain of the atrocity that is the Haruno Sakura's character arc.

I'm going need something to give me the inner strength to vote for Naruto in anything after all it's put me through. Some good Sakura fanart would do the trick, NaruSaku is also acceptable. HOWEVER!!! I'll warn you, like I should have warned The President earlier, if you give me SasuXSaku art I'm immediately voting for Berserk. Jiraya X Tsunade fanart is also acceptable. Even good fanfics will do, but only if they are shamelessly lemony.

@Jammin Those dont correlate. FT had quite a ton of discussion going about it, that doesnt make it even remotely good. Especially not when the discussion is about how bad something in the series is.

I would argue it does. People are too quick to hate things that are flawed, IMO. Enjoyment is enjoyment and I'm enjoying this conversation...much like I enjoy boobs in Fairy Tail.

It's not to late to try and bribe me with Guts X Farnese fanart though.

 

[YumaKuga]

Arguments aside
Whats up with seeing that vote count bois?

 

[Hermit]

Alright @Emperor Spriggan I'm on the edge of voting for Naruto but before I can do that you need to sooth the pain of the atrocity that is the Haruno Sakura's character arc.

I'm going need something to give me the inner strength to vote for Naruto in anything after all it's put me through. Some good Sakura fanart would do the trick, NaruSaku is also acceptable. HOWEVER!!! I'll warn you, like I should have warned The President earlier, if you give me SasuXSaku art I'm immediately vote for Berserk. Jiraya X Tsunade fanart is also acceptable. Even good fanfics will do, but only if they are shamelessly lemony.

I swear you are like the one person here who understands my NaruSaku obsession
Anyway, at your service:

I have more

 

[The President]

Kishimoto certainly has a tendency to do so, but, honestly, I don´t think his villains were particularly great to begin with. Tobi had potential, but never rose to it as you saw. Nagato was not bad and, though misguided, did have interesting aspirations and the will to follow through with them, but was not particularly deep or groundbreaking. His argument was mostly not answered at first because Naruto is not exactly a stellar protagonist, and anything more complex than a black and white view has a good chance of confusing him. Nagato´s idea of peace by fear/oppression is not new, and Nagato didn´t really add anything new to the table other than some talk of never-ending hatred based on his own experiences. His following trust in Naruto was indeed laughable, but he was never fantastic to begin with, just decent to good. Same for Orochimaru, really. He wasn´t bad, but in the end not much more than a well-executed and charming form of “scientist focusing on research above anything else”. Which is perfectly fine, I didn´t come to Naruto expecting to see something rivalling actual literature, but nevertheless I do think it is important to note that Naruto´s characters hardly, if ever, rose above playing with their tropes.

Id argue Tobi was living up to everything right up until he was revealed to be Obito and his reasoning was given to us for what he was doing. He was efficiently playing the entire series and bending it to his whim, like a good villain should do but then was revealed to be nothing short of a winy kid who decided to destroy the world cause he lost his crush. Nagato as a character was very deep. I dont actually think the war orphan turning into a twisted but methodical main villain is a trope that has been explored all that much, and I've read a fair few manga at this point. Regardless he went to shit as well.

Some other characters worth noting that aren't binded by any particular trope would be Danzo, Kisame and of course Itachi. All of whom stayed fairly consistent till the end and are definitely highlights of the series. That said, a lot of characters in Naruto were wasted as @Aizen pointed out. While it does have some excellent characters, pound-for-pound it suffers like many shonen do from an inflated cast.

Berserk handles its cast far better. Even the characters you are meant to despise get sufficient characterization that makes them feel more real (like the incest pedophile king). It overall wastes very few characters. Of course Guts and Griffith are far superior to any character and/or character dynamic Naruto has to offer. Its how a rivalry should be done, Narutos rivalry with Sasuke went to shit fairly early on into the series and it didn't help that neither were likeable or particularly well written characters unlike Guts and Griffith.

There is also the lore aspect. Berserks lore is probably the most intriguing I've seen in any series, Naruto tries way too hard with its lore. Its all over the place. Too many inconsistencies. The plot kinda ties into the lore so its pretty much the same there. The art is of course leagues better in Berserk, which arguably has the best art of any series I've read sans Vagabond.

Themes also go to Berserk. Naruto does tackle some good ones and Id argue is the deepest of the Big 3, but Berserk is one of the deepest manga period. The topics that it touches on are risky but reward the reader with great payoff. Lastly, the world building in Berserk (not quite the same as lore for me) is also astounding, making every new location they visit feel real (in no small part thanks to the vibrant and detailed art) and necessary. Naruto had potential for good world building, but failed greatly by dumping all the countries on us simultaneously in the Summit Arc (at which point I think it was clear kishimoto lost his sense of direction with the series).

Naruto as a series is a 7/10. Berserk is a 10/10 (if we ignore decimals).

 

[Jammin]

@Emperor Spriggan pleasure doing business with you.

Naruto +1

I swear you are like the one person here who understands my NaruSaku obsession

We are the last of a dying breed. Kishi may have killed most of us but we brave few have learned to live off salt and head canon.

I have more

I want moar!

I won't blame you if you want to save them to secure my vote in future rounds though because that will 100% work. If you do not get the chance though feel free to deposit them in my staff thread.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 14, 2017, Original Post Date: Oct 14, 2017 ---

Naruto as a series is a 7/10. Berserk is a 10/10 (if we ignore decimals).

Hold up. So your giving Naruto a 7 and Berserk a 10. And Berserk is supposedly like 70% done right? So a 70% of a 10 would be 7. Hmmmm.

Does that mean, mathematically speaking, that Naruto = Berserk?

 

[Hermit]

I want moar!

I won't blame you if you want to save them to secure my vote in future rounds though because that will 100% work. If you do not get the chance though feel free to deposit them in my staff thread.

Just a small teaser for whats to come
And thank you for the vote!

 

[z.5]

The Uchiha were sleeping, thats a key factor. And Obito helped. Itachi was a master of stealth, he literally went house by house assassinating everyone. Tobi probably took care of the guards on patrol. Sunas attack was made when literally all of Konohas forces were gathered, so they essentially too on the full might of Konoha with whatever they managed to sneak in and the Sound nins. The uchiha likely had a strategy akin to what Danzo/Itachi pulled on them.

Konoha's forces would have already been in the city when the ANBU would be there to arrest the 'sleeping' Uchiha.

You can't allow them to sleep through a massacre on one side, but ensure that they would be totally awake and ready to fight when Konoha makes its moves on the other.

For the first point, they had absolutely no idea about anything regarding Itachi.

All the more reason to suggest why a non-violent sting operation may have been feasible.

For the second and third points, its happened plenty of times in real life (mostly with slaves who would ask for the opposing power to lend them weapons so that they could help), I dont see why it wouldn't happen here.

The Uchiha were not slaves

Not all were not mistreated anywhere near the extent that slaves were.

Their situation could have ended up with them as slaves (whereas the slaves don't have further down to go).

Not all Uchiha would have likely felt resentment – but it would be easy to see how most slaves would have.

I am not sure that your example really is all that comparrable.

And Itachis does? Even though his circumstances are far more justifiable then Danzos?

Yes, because Danzo's whole character wasn't built around that one event – Itachi's was.
Neither Danzo nor Itachi's circumstances [actions?] were justifiable in my mind, not far more, not slightly.

Not that I think anyone other then the Uchiha rebels were idiots.

Well, I certainly don't believe that the Uchiha children (for example) were.

A proficient pawn and killer doesn't at all translate into someone who has the authority to contest or intervene into the arguments of the figure heads of the village.

They'd have been even more foolish not to ask him about his ideas on the best course of action in dealing with the Uchiha – especially as he was their spy, so would have the most information (even if he wasn't a Uchiha to begin with).

He could say that he wouldn't do it, unless they allowed him to do it in a more peaceful manner.

What are they going to do, arrest him and draw the gaze of the Uchiha (who may think that his sudden arrest, without warrant, was suspicious – just before they commit their coup?). They'd at least listen to him, before flat out rejecting him.

Not when leaking the information will directly lead to the massacre of the entire clan in one way or another and he is full aware of that fact.

Yes, even in that case.

… and I am not sure that he knew, when he begun spying, it would ever progress to that extent.

What did he discuss with him? I recall nothing other then the promise to keep Sasuke safe from harm.

I don't recall anything specific, no.

But I don't see it inconceivable that Hiruzen (who supposedly didn't want the massacre to occur), wouldn't have pulled Itachi aside for a quick chat, at some point.

Arresting the Uchiha leaders would have led to nothing but even more resentment. And that decision would turn on him ten folds.

Why, exactly?

When they explain the reasons for the arrest, that they were plotting a coup, which would royally fuck up the lives of the other Uchihas living peacefully in the city...

Do you think all the Uchihas were bloodthirsty and power-hungry?

That none could be swayed by reason?

I wonder if arresting Danzo was as easy as you make it out to be. Danzo is someone who had considerable influence himself, and technically he hadn't done any direct crime either.

Perhaps not, but it isn't like Hiruzen doesn't also have considerable influence.

I am sure that plotting the mass genocide of a whole clan is reason enough for a trial at least.

But then the Civil war would have happened regardless,

I don't believe that you can say for certain that it would have.

at worst the entirety of Konoha getting flattened by another super power.

An event, which I have already pointed out could have been equally likely following the removal of a massive chunk of the village's power.

even going to konoha personally as to warn the elders that just because Hiruzen is gone does not mean their end of the bargain is finished (this was stated in the manga).

This is what I was referring to when I said he didn't trust them at all.

Also, I meant, even in the event that he does kill innocent civilians, he could have taken Sasuke with him as he fled, not that he flees with Sasuke and doesn't kill everyone.

That's why he would have been better to flee with Sasuke – he didn't know that Danzo wouldn't kill Sasuke anyway.

Well the one you listed here was definitely not an option.

I disagree.

Surround Uchiha residences at night (whilst they are asleep) with ANBU.
Move in at one go and arrest the leaders of the plot.
Have Danzo arrested (or at least try to)
Have Itachi (a Uchiha) and/or Hiruzen explain the situation to everyone – assuring them that they are not suspected, as they know everyone who was responssible.

Most definitely not an option, since they would obviously tell the conspirators (which seemed to be the entire police force) and that would only escalate things.

Obviously not before, but as described above.

That wouldnt result in anything short of the bulk of the Uchiha getting arrested, which, as I stated previously really would not do anything short of delay the inevitable.

Why would they need to arrest the bulk of the Uchiha – were they all in on the plot? All of them?!?

Also, at that point he would loose favour of the Uchiha, so he wouldnt even be in the position to stop or anticipate the next rebellion. Which would only make things worse.

Fine, then you don't tell the Uchiha how you found out the information – you just lay down the vast collection of proof that you have built up over time.

It's hardly rocket science.

Sure, but are you honestly suggesting the Uchihas get tried and thats the end of it?

Yes, pretty much.

Show it to be a fair trial, pointing out how arresting them is better than the violence which would have happened had they been able to start their attack, and I am sure you could convince more than a few Uchiha.

This leads back to the Pain point, it wouldnt end there.

No it doesn't.

The Uchiha wouldn't suffer anywhere near Pain did (nor the people he was referring to in that monologue).

If only the guilty were tried, the Uchiha would still be able to live as they were before.

Another rebellion would occur again guaranteed. This is a world in which all the countries have a joint alliance, and there are still seemingly a bunch of villains trying to start shit.

Other than Kishimoto's storytelling, there is no reason to assume that any of the other Uchiha would suddenly plot a power-grab, any more than a Hyuuga might.

 

[MasterKurosawa]

Love to.

I say that they were more interesting due to them having, what I perceive to be:
A better aesthetic – with lots of scrolls, kunai (giant throwing stars), interesting features and decals which are commonly associated with ninjas.

More interesting backstories – for the ones which did receive as much.

More interesting powers and skills.

I bash them and also agree that Berserk's characters are in general superior, due to what was done with the characters – how they were treated after creation. The way they think and act.

I can see that perhaps I could have appeared quite misleading with my initial statement (upon a 2nd reading one could easily think that I prefer the characters in Naruto to those in Berserk. That isn't true. Only, if Miura had worked with the characters from Naruto, and Kishimoto with the characters from Berserk, Miura's story would be far, far, superior.


Sorry, I am somewhat confused, are you agreeing with me that there were other ways to stop the (what I see to be unethical and severely misguided) massacre?

I am not sure that they would have lost trust, not if they didn't go along with the coup attempt.

That said, who knows, this is a village which severely mistreated a child for his whole life and brought up their children to do so also – solely due to his father and mother saving the village by trapping a demon (which wants to take over his body) inside him.

Even if Sasuke had gone off the rails like that, it would have been far superior storytelling than how he was treated in the actual story. It would be easier to explain, could have been more gradual, and would have left numerous possibilities open for the story to progress naturally into.


A monster?!?

heh

Sure, choosing from this competition alone, I personally find FMA to be superior.


Not an idiot. It would be a different kind of story altogether – a tragedy.


It would have been a way to highlight his innocence. Even through it all, he never gave up on Sasuke. He wasn't a fool, per se. but rather the whole ninja system wasn't made with 'pacifist' in mind. The idea that he could change such a system, although highly commendable, was naïve.

It would leave on a sad note, but would make people empathize with Naruto all the more.

Some of the best stories are tragedies – not all have to fall into the hero saving everyone, solving all the world's problems, changing everyone's minds...


Oh don't get me wrong. As I pointed out, it was hardly the kind of ending for a story which was to be published in Shounen Jump.

It was more what I would have personally enjoyed, then what I think would realistically happen.


To make a point?

Because Sasuke committed a lot of crimes whilst hunting down Itachi?

Because Sasuke left the village, breaking some fundamental law (due to this risking Konohagakure's secrets getting out)?

Because, upon the Third's death, they fell into corruption?

I dunno – I am just throwing ideas at the wall.
It isn't like the rest of the manga wouldn't have been drastically changed before that point, it wouldn't be unfeasible to find a way which it could have been brought into the story, in a natural manner.

I can easily see Berserk ending on a bittersweet note – in fact, I hope it does.
I guess being Seinen does give you more leeway in this regard.


Welcome to the forums bud.


How not?
You using the image button, then linking to the actual image on the website (rather than the website itself)?

I am sure we can help out if you need assistance.

Ah, I see, I did misunderstand then. Well, the powers part is certainly undeniable considering Berserk didn´t have much of note in that regard (and actually introduced some silly magic from what I hear), and Miura certainly could have done a lot with that, but I personally don´t fully agree with design and backstories. I´d say Naruto´s characters are more captivating at a glance, whereas Miura´s characters may seem somewhat plain and mundane in terms of design alone (bishounen Griffith aside). I don´t think that´s much of a problem though, both fit the corresponding setting quite well, and I think for what the setting of Berserk is supposed to be, his characters were perfectly fine. It´s all a matter of how these elements fit together after all. I do think we´re stepping into very subjective territory here however.



Yes, I am. You mentioned that the remaining Uchiha wouldn´t have done anything if their leaders were arrested, so I added onto that with what might happen afterwards. Which is, rather than them revolting too, they would have just tried to lay low and regain lost trust.


I do think trust would have been lost to an extent. If leaders of a clan are planning a revolt, it would be natural to be suspicious of its individual members as well, especially to make sure they didn´t want to follow in their leaders´ footsteps. At the very least Konoha would have made sure to pay attention to their individual actions a bit more than before. The remaining Uchiha then would certainly not have tried anything. At least not in their right minds.

So yes, there would have been a more peaceful solution to all of this. It would have had its own repercussions, but far less grave than what we are given.

And yeah, I would´ve preferred that Sasuke.


FMA eh? Well, it´s been too long since I´ve read it, so I can´t even say much to that. I do disagree based on what I recall from both works, but FMA is good enough that I´ll let this pass. No HxH though, huh?


Oh, don´t misunderstand. I don´t think that kind of alternative ending is necessarily bad. I do love tragedies after all. I just think that with what we were given, it doesn´t really fit the tone of the story. The content does hint at some darker things (such as Sasuke´s crimes and the ninja world´s lack of apparent pacifism), but they are never really treated with a tone that befits them. From the very beginning, Naruto reads like a story that will have a happy end, like a shonen. Whatever dark elements it has are either overshadowed by the positivity on the horizon and characters´ optimism, particularly Naruto´s. Were Naruto´s optimism shown to be naïve, your ending might have been feasible. But with the way it is written, we are led to believe that it is a good trait of his right from the start. So on one hand I agree that the manga wouldn´t have had to be drastically changed. Not content-wise anyways. But I do think it would have needed a rewriting in terms of tone, suspense and atmosphere, as those were largely unbefitting of a more serious and realistic story to begin with. Naruto´s optimism should have been shown to be excessive and misplaced, the ninja world should have been shown in a more ominous light rather than the at best slightly tragic nature of it all. Basically, it´s not that the manga doesn´t have the setting it takes to write such an ending. It just utilizes its elements in such a way that we are never led to believe that characters would fail in the end.

So, well, yes, it would have been fine as a tragedy. But not without switching to a more gritty and downcast mood from the start. Hence my confusion, since it would be really bizarre to read normal Naruto and suddenly be met with such an ending. Not because it doesn´t fit Shounen Jump (well, not only), but because it was not set up to end like that to begin with. Perhaps I just experienced the series differently from you though, who knows. If it were rewritten for a Seinen magazine it might just have worked.


Berserk will very likely end on a bittersweet note. Happy? Unfeasible. Not with the idea of evil and all of the themes that were established. Downright tragic? Could be, but I´d feel a bit weirded out if after the eclipse the story continued on only to end in tragedy yet again. So I do think bittersweet is going to be it. But, hey. Berserk isn´t gonna end. Somebody would have to WRITE it after all.


Thanks! Oh, and my bad. Meant emoji, not images. I just noticed that on my first post the ones I quoted weren´t working. Who knows why. Seem to be working here though.

 

[YumaKuga]

Just gotta say

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much Naruto and Sakura shipping. It hurts

 

[The President]

Konoha's forces would have already been in the city when the ANBU would be there to arrest the 'sleeping' Uchiha.

You can't allow them to sleep through a massacre on one side, but ensure that they would be totally awake and ready to fight when Konoha makes its moves on the other.

All the more reason to suggest why a non-violent sting operation may have been feasible.

Nope, this wouldn't work long term.

The Uchiha were not slaves

You missed the entire point. Your rebuttal was why would the Uchiha call upon another power just to be suppressed again, and I ask you, why would a slave call for another power just to be suppressed again? The circumstances are pretty much identical here. Slaves could have been outright put to death, had their families killed and/or good old fashioned torture for rebelling. Not to mention, the odds that the renown Uchiha clan can strike some sort of deal with another super power are far greater then the odds that slaves can. Yet it still happened. So it was more then a viable option for the Uchiha clan.

Its not like we are discussing what reason the Uchiha would have to rebel, we are discussing how they rebel.

Yes, because Danzo's whole character wasn't built around that one event – Itachi's was.
Neither Danzo nor Itachi's circumstances [actions?] were justifiable in my mind, not far more, not slightly.

Itachis was more then justifiable, it was pretty much the best course to take (the word best used comparatively here). He was forced into a situation he cant get out from, the author literally says it. Danzos is more ambiguous, and thats the point. Though even then, I assure you there are people out there who would see Danzos line of reasoning. Neither of the two are involved with any bad writing.

They'd have been even more foolish not to ask him about his ideas on the best course of action in dealing with the Uchiha – especially as he was their spy, so would have the most information (even if he wasn't a Uchiha to begin with).

If Danzo was looking for someones biased answer, sure.

He could say that he wouldn't do it, unless they allowed him to do it in a more peaceful manner.

What are they going to do, arrest him and draw the gaze of the Uchiha (who may think that his sudden arrest, without warrant, was suspicious – just before they commit their coup?). They'd at least listen to him, before flat out rejecting him.

What does this accomplish exactly? He says that, the civil war happens regardless. Hiruzen seemingly tried negotiating, and it failed. There was nothing that could have been done.

Spoiler

I don't recall anything specific, no.

But I don't see it inconceivable that Hiruzen (who supposedly didn't want the massacre to occur), wouldn't have pulled Itachi aside for a quick chat, at some point.

They were pressed for time.

Why, exactly?

When they explain the reasons for the arrest, that they were plotting a coup, which would royally fuck up the lives of the other Uchihas living peacefully in the city...

Do you think all the Uchihas were bloodthirsty and power-hungry?

That none could be swayed by reason?

Yes and I think you fail to see both the fact that they were pressed for time as well as the threat that the Uchiha clan truly posed.

Perhaps not, but it isn't like Hiruzen doesn't also have considerable influence.

I am sure that plotting the mass genocide of a whole clan is reason enough for a trial at least.

He actually has less influence then you might think. The elders (including Danzo) all had a relatively large say in every matter. The division of power was likely along the lines of 50% for the Hokage and 50% for the village elders (collectively).

Not if said clan is planning a revolt that could potentially lead the entirety of the village into ruin.

I don't believe that you can say for certain that it would have.

I can because it was stated in the manga and these "what ifs" dont hold all that much weight compared to that. I repeat, Danzo quite literally came up to him and said. " Bro, you either kill your clan right now and save the village and your brother or die with your clan, brother and potentially cost the entire village to go into shambles".

Spoiler

Spoiler

I honestly dont see why this is even being argued.

This is what I was referring to when I said he didn't trust them at all.

Also, I meant, even in the event that he does kill innocent civilians, he could have taken Sasuke with him as he fled, not that he flees with Sasuke and doesn't kill everyone.

That's why he would have been better to flee with Sasuke – he didn't know that Danzo wouldn't kill Sasuke anyway.

But Itachi loved the village, and doing that would be forsaking the village. Priority wise it was: Sasuke > Konoha > Rest of the Uchiha. Why flee and only save the top when he could take out the bottom and save both Sasuke and Konoha? You arent taking into account Itachis mindset.

Surround Uchiha residences at night (whilst they are asleep) with ANBU.
Move in at one go and arrest the leaders of the plot.
Have Danzo arrested (or at least try to)
Have Itachi (a Uchiha) and/or Hiruzen explain the situation to everyone – assuring them that they are not suspected, as they know everyone who was responssible.

Arrest the leaders of the plot? But whos to say they dont get out? Whos to say someone who was left behind wont try and save them. This opens up a whole other can of worms, a can of worms both the village and Itachi will no longer be able to account for since Itachi would no longer be on the inside. The danger the Uchiha as a clan posed as imminent and their threat level was massive. Also, I would not be surprised if, at the very least all the adults were in on the rebellion. Itachis mom knew at the very least, so it wasnt information exclusive to the police force.

Everything else is more or less addressed.

 

[Brandish μ]

Itachi was smart af!!!

He ran from Guy Sensei when my man showed up to kick Kisame in the face. Because there is no way he beats Guy alone, he'd need Pain to help. He made up some meh excuse, but I know he was straight up scared. That's why he ran from Jiraiya, he predicted Guy would show! And in that Gaara arc, Itachi was trembling over Guy's talents.

This is what I like about Naruto - just being a fanboy!!

PS - the Uchiha are rubbish. Ruined by 'their eyes'. When a power afflicts your personality like that it's cheap and usually reflects poorly on those characters. There's probably some series where it works, but it didn't in Naruto. Madara and Itachi are cool af which is why I like them, not for their 'decisions'. lol.

 

[Jammin]

Just gotta say

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much Naruto and Sakura shipping. It hurts

No such thing as too much.

It does hurt though... because some wounds never truely heal. They just become scars.

 

[TotalEconomist]

I'm actually surprised this thread has a lot of replies

One of these series showcases how awesome Manga can be, the other brought out the cringe in people and coined the term "Narutard".

 

[z.5]

FMA eh? Well, it´s been too long since I´ve read it, so I can´t even say much to that. I do disagree based on what I recall from both works, but FMA is good enough that I´ll let this pass. No HxH though, huh?

Nah, never really got into it.

Thanks! Oh, and my bad. Meant emoji, not images. I just noticed that on my first post the ones I quoted weren´t working. Who knows why. Seem to be working here though.

How odd

Nope, this wouldn't work long term.

And why not?

Because once you have arrested the leaders, relatively peacefully, explained their guilt – somehow those pesky Uchiha love genetics will lead them to want to revolt again?

You say yes, I say I don't see why, we are at an impasse.

You missed the entire point. Your rebuttal was why would the Uchiha call upon another power just to be suppressed again, and I ask you, why would a slave call for another power just to be suppressed again?

Because a slave is literally being forced to do things against their will. Their situation is as bad as it can be. They have literally no freedom. The risk of getting into a worse situation is less – if anything, their situation will be the same (or better).

The circumstances are pretty much identical here.

Where are the Uchiha's chains?
Where are the Uchiha being shown to be beaten, randomly, at the whim of their master?
Where are the Uchiha being shown to be raped for fun?
Where are the Uchiha being shown to be forced to pick crops – and if they don't make their quota, being beaten/mutilated/killed?

Or

Where are slaves being shown to be respected on the level of basic civilians (not counting individual slave examples – but in general)
Where are slaves being shown to work jobs of a similar standard as basic civilians?
Where are slaves being shown to have a huge degree of freedom over their lives, the same amout as regular civilians?

The Uchiha are not slaves.
The two situations are not comparable.

Slaves could have been outright put to death, had their families killed and/or good old fashioned torture for rebelling.

And you are arguing this was ok, I am saying it was not.

Also, on this point, if Konohagakure were willing to do to the Uchiha, surely they would have been willing for any of the clans.
Were all the civilians in Konohagakure slaves?

Its not like we are discussing what reason the Uchiha would have to rebel

I dunno anymore.

I started this discussion about my dislike for the story progression – you drew in Itachi and expanded upon the Uchiha rebellion.

Itachis was more then justifiable, it was pretty much the best course to take (the word best used comparatively here).

Again, an impasse. You say yes, I say no. I am not sure this discussion will/can go anywhere more, as the same points keep getting brought up over and over again.

He was forced into a situation he cant get out from, the author literally says it. Danzos is more ambiguous, and thats the point. Though even then, I assure you there are people out there who would see Danzos line of reasoning. Neither of the two are involved with any bad writing.

And here is the crux of the issue.

I say it is bad writing because it is just not true that he couldn't get out of it.
Even if the author says it to be so.

An example – “a masked man puts a gun on the table and tells you to shoot either your mother or father, or he will shoot you. You have no choice but to shoot your mother or your father.”

There we go – I have laid out a scene and said there are only 2 choices.

But, I am sure you can easily see alternative choices.

Was that good writing?

If Danzo was looking for someones biased answer, sure.

He actually has less influence then you might think. The elders (including Danzo) all had a relatively large say in every matter. The division of power was likely along the lines of 50% for the Hokage and 50% for the village elders (collectively).

Danzo just wanted their eyes.

Hiruzen however may have seen reason – and as you said, he is, perhaps, 50% of the power.

What does this accomplish exactly? He says that, the civil war happens regardless. Hiruzen seemingly tried negotiating, and it failed. There was nothing that could have been done.

He speaks after the event. The massacre had already happened. Unless you are going to attribute fortune telling powers to him, no one knows what would have happened had the massacre not taken place.

They were pressed for time.
Yes and I think you fail to see both the fact that they were pressed for time as well as the threat that the Uchiha clan truly posed.

They had the same amount of time as it took for Itachi to kill everyone.

If that is only 1 night, it is 1 night to do anything.

Not if said clan is planning a revolt that could potentially lead the entirety of the village into ruin.

Yes if said clan is planning a revolt.

You have a trial and see the outcome.

Perhaps, unlike you, the courts will decide that the massacre wasn't justifiable at all.

I can because it was stated in the manga and these "what ifs" dont hold all that much weight compared to that.

Then it is bad writing.
AS I said, if you can see a clear flaw in a plan, to assure the readers that there is no flaws is, what I consider to be, poor writing.

I repeat, Danzo quite literally came up to him and said. " Bro, you either kill your clan right now and save the village and your brother or die with your clan, brother and potentially cost the entire village to go into shambles".

I repeat – if someone threatened you like that, to kill your whole family, would you not try and find another way?

What if someone told you that there was no other way?

I honestly dont see why this is even being argued.

Nor me – perhaps we should stop.

But Itachi loved the village, and doing that would be forsaking the village. Priority wise it was: Sasuke > Konoha > Rest of the Uchiha. Why flee and only save the top when he could take out the bottom and save both Sasuke and Konoha? You arent taking into account Itachis mindset.

He was already forsaking the village.

Perhaps I wasn't clear on this fleeing with Sasuke point.

There would be no need to flee with Sasuke, had the massacre not taken place.

I meant once he had killed everyone – he left Sasuke in Konohagakure.
Had he really wanted to make sure Danzo didn't kill Sasuke, he could have fled with him.

That was the point, nothing more.

Also, I am saying he was severely delusional and emotionally compromised at that point.

Arrest the leaders of the plot? But whos to say they dont get out? Whos to say someone who was left behind wont try and save them. This opens up a whole other can of worms, a can of worms both the village and Itachi will no longer be able to account for since Itachi would no longer be on the inside.

Ah, 2 can play that game.

Who's to say that some of the Uchiha plotters don't escape the massacre.
Who's to say that another village doesn't see the weakness and attack right after.
Who's to say that Tobi (who Itachi asked for help) wouldn't just try and take Konohagakure out again? He was the one who had just summoned a 9 tailed fox inside the village and fuck everything up...

The danger the Uchiha as a clan posed as imminent and their threat level was massive. Also, I would not be surprised if, at the very least all the adults were in on the rebellion. Itachis mom knew at the very least, so it wasnt information exclusive to the police force.

Itachi's mum knew because her husband was the head of the plot.

It is likely that Itachi had a list of names of those responsible.

I would be surprised if all the adults were – I don't think the Uchiha were as bloodthirsty as you perhaps do.
It would be wise to keep the plan secret from almost everyone, to not risk it being leaked to the rest of the village – telling every adult Uchiha is just asking for one of them to pull an Itachi and warn the village.


Look, we are really not getting anywhere - I really didn't want to get into a conversation about how justified Itachi was or not.
I don't think it is particularly interesting, there are far more exciting things in Naruto than, what I consider to be, badly written man on the train tracks ethical dilemmas.

Also, I feel we are getting somewhat off topic about the whole Naruto vs Berserk.

The writing of Naruto is on topic, Itachi's/Danzo's justification/what would have happened had the massacre not occured, is not.

 

[Phileos]

Berserk is gonna win.
I vote for Naruto

 

[Erinyes]

*opening Pandora box*
Ok, I know Ill be ridiculed and hated forever there

, I know Berserk is a masterpiece, I know Naruto has big flaws. I know things Im going to mention are not that simple, I know Miura is a genius... But Im a woman, and whatever plot reasons, characterisation and so., and even if Berserk is a flawless manga or anything, sorry i just can't give my vote to a manga that portrays a woman being raped with such a lewd expression.

Spoiler: Casca

There's no excuse i can accept to this, unfortunately, its quite common now in many media to display rape as a "pleasant experience" for women when its supposed to be the utmost humiliation, I know its arguable in casca case, but still there's no doubt about her feelings when you see her face. Again Im not at all a feminist or anything like this, im not bashing Berserk or Berserk fans for this, and im not saying Berserk is bad because of this, its just my personnal opinion on this specific part of the story which makes me uneasy.
Ready to receive your stones.

*closing Pandora box*