As far as characters go, Naruto had the more interesting ones in my mind.
Considering how you went on to bash several major characters in Naruto, care to explain this comment? I do think Berserk´s characters are vastly superior to whatever Naruto produced in its runtime.
I am afraid that I don't believe so.
They arrest the leaders, show evidence of them plotting to overthrow the village, emphasize how much of a terrible idea that is (and how much everyone, including those who were ninjas, would suffer if such a thing was to happen), point out how even if they did perform a coup they would likely lose anyway...
All this to a clan, most of which, from what we know, weren't even aware that a coup was being planned, didn't appear to be overly power-hungry, didn't appear to feel mistreated/resent the rest of the village...
Then, why didn't Itachi (a genius
) just take out Danzo instead?
They could have arrested the plotters, Danzo would be gone, and Itachi would still appear a villain - though at least he may have a modicum of justification for his actions this way.
If anything, this might have ensured that the remaining Uchihas wouldn´t act up anymore. I an alternative world, the planned revolt followed by the arrest of its leaders might have led to the Uchiha clan losing its position of trust in Konoha, in turn causing them to be surveilled and shamed for what happened. They would´ve wanted to atone for that and restore their honour, which could´ve led to Sasuke, witnessing the suffering of his fellow clansman and especially his mother, pursuing Itachi, Danzo´s killer, in order to prove that their clan was loyal to Konoha after all, only to uncover Danzo´s own plans.
The main question is, for those who have read both, can people name a similar point in Berserk?
Although I haven't caught up to the end of Berserk yet (and think there are far superior mangas in this competition), I haven't felt the crushing loss of potential with Berserk as I have with Naruto.
Well, I´ve yet to catch up myself, but I do actually hear complaints about arcs post Golden age. Something about slightly more shonen-esque developments, a loli, magic, miniature Naruto and pirates. Basically, a crass change from the semi-political drama and tragedy that was Golden age. Whether or not those complaints are actually valid I couldn´t say though.
And you´re a monster. Again, not sure about what happens after, but I dare you to tell me a manga far superior to Berserk´s golden age arc.
For me, Naruto's 'love' for Sasuke (and wanting to save him), could easily have been chalked up to Konohagakure wanting to track down and kill Sasuke (due to their archaic laws on ninjas leaving the village) and Naruto empathizing with Sasuke and wanting to save him from Konohagakure - by bringing him back to the village and convincing the leaders for leniency.
Now that I write that, had it ended with Naruto bringing Sasuke back (after he had taken his revenge on Itachi [still a bad guy in my rewriting]) and the village trying and executing Sasuke. Followed by the Naruto flipping out and finally going full 9 tails, before being killed (last panel being his dead body next to Sasuke's), I believe it could have been an insanely epic and poignant end to the manga.
I´m… not really sure what the point of it all would have been with that kind of ending though. Perhaps I´m and idiot and completely missing it, and I do not mean to defend Naruto´s actual ending, but what would have been the message in such an ending? Empathy is wrong? Naruto was a fool who couldn´t believe his dear friend changed? Konoha is evil and Naruto was born to suffer under them? Really, under different circumstances/a complete rewrite it might be a great ending, but not with the kind of portrayal Naruto got as rising star and pacifist, something that was not ever shown as something bad or misguided on his part. Whether or not he was misguided in reality is one thing, but suddenly switching to an ending that built on something not shown in the manga would be inconsistent. Same for Konohagakure. Though the village´s leaders may have made many mistakes, their overall portrayal was positive as well, which would then beg the question of why they would lead to both MC´s deaths.
That said I do agree with your general point that Kishimoto destroys his villains. Tobi being the prime example of a character who had potential to be one of the most memorable villains in manga, but ended up being......one of the most memorable villains in manga for all the wrong reasons. And Nagato, who provided us with one hell of an argument that pushed the MC to the point of being speechless, but then conceded to the retort of just trust me in one of the most bafflingly dumb conversions I've ever seen. Orochimaru is another terribly misused main antagonist, going from being an iconic villain and a display of how to do "bad for the sake of being bad" right, to falling as low as becoming comedic relief (which is just extremely cringy).I am almost certain that none of the Berserk villains will fall as low as these terribly executed main villains did.
Kishimoto certainly has a tendency to do so, but, honestly, I don´t think his villains were particularly great to begin with. Tobi had potential, but never rose to it as you saw. Nagato was not bad and, though misguided, did have interesting aspirations and the will to follow through with them, but was not particularly deep or groundbreaking. His argument was mostly not answered at first because Naruto is not exactly a stellar protagonist, and anything more complex than a black and white view has a good chance of confusing him. Nagato´s idea of peace by fear/oppression is not new, and Nagato didn´t really add anything new to the table other than some talk of never-ending hatred based on his own experiences. His following trust in Naruto was indeed laughable, but he was never fantastic to begin with, just decent to good. Same for Orochimaru, really. He wasn´t bad, but in the end not much more than a well-executed and charming form of “scientist focusing on research above anything else”. Which is perfectly fine, I didn´t come to Naruto expecting to see something rivalling actual literature, but nevertheless I do think it is important to note that Naruto´s characters hardly, if ever, rose above playing with their tropes.
Berserk´s Griffith and his relationship with Guts are in an entirely different ballpark in comparison, and no matter what Miura may do from here on out, it´ll never ruin the beauty that was the golden age arc.
This in part because Griffith doesn´t even start out as a villain in our story and is in fact a deeply ironic and tragic being. His position as the one to defeat Guts and make him his subordinate leads to us exploring his character long before his position as antagonist is established (something that the first three volumes undermine a bit I´m afraid, as they slightly spoil the impact Golden age´s ending might have otherwise had). At this point already Griffith is fleshed out more than most characters in Naruto ever were. We get to know him as a charismatic, intelligent man with ambitions far beyond his humble birth. We see as he refuses to live in the shadows of the world, wanting to prove his worth and reason for existing in the world. He gathers allies, saves them from their own predicaments and inspires them to follow him in his quest, even willing to sell his body to a noble to get closer to it. Eventually, with his growing belief in his future position as king, he begins to lose his own sense of morals and empathy. Coping with the death he himself incurred in his path, he rationalizes his actions as necessary in order to succeed, and begins to view his comrades as lesser beings, refusing to acknowledge those who would not follow their own dream as true friends, as equals. His relationship with Guts is not particularly different at first, and in fact, Guts is the one who is saved by Griffith and his band from his own violent past at first, finally regaining some of his long-lost happiness, and finding people to trust in. But as his prowess in battle is made more and more clear, he begins to gain Griffith´s favour as his right-hand man, and becomes the first Griffith decides to confine in, for the first time starting to think that another could become his equal. Yet, tragically, the same growth that leads to Guts gaining Griffith´s trust is also the one that would lead to the split between the two. Eventually wishing to find his own dream and path in life after Griffith´s goal seems finally within reach, he leaves the band of the hawks, breaking Griffith´s trust and leaving him alone once more. And yet, Guts´ leaving is what truly cements his position as the sole man who did not choose to serve Griffith´s dream, ironically fulfilling the criteria Griffith himself had set in order for somebody to be considered a true friend. And it is at this point that Griffith truly begins to transcend his character and becomes one with a major theme of the manga: human craving for a purpose, for a reason, their inability to live without any further, higher meaning, and the suffering that inevitably follows from it (something that is also represented by the idea of evil, a being that exists because of humanity´s existential guilt, which is shown in how, rather than realizing what truly matters, almost every major character craves for something which they cannot have, only becoming aware of their losses after the fact). Distraught from losing what became his pillar of support, Griffith breaks down, fleeing into the arms of the princess who loved him, in a desperate attempt to replace the void left in his heart. Having this backfire is what seals his fate, and he is ultimately left to rot in a dungeon.
His reunion with Guts then is simply a reminder of his failure, and as he notices Guts´ happiness with Casca, he begins to harbour hatred for him, hatred for the man who should have been his and yet refused to be so, hatred for the fact that he alone was suffering. And, oh so famously, this leads to the so-called eclipse, where Griffith reaffirms his dream in wanting to be a king, embracing that he ironically was a slave to it all along, and thus with it the idea of evil itself, finally sacrificing even Casca and Guts to his megalomaniac quest. With this action he also gives up on his own human emotions, by way of betraying the one man who ever managed to make him forget his own dream. This is simply fantastic as a development, as it cements Griffith´s position as a villain, as a man with no regard for other´s wishes, while remaining extremely believable and relevant to the themes of the manga. The tragedy happens because in the end Griffith refused to give up on his dream, coldly arguing that too many have died and it was his responsibility to continue, refusing the idea that he could live without following the destiny the idea of evil imposed on him, thus beginning a new era of darkness, symbolic for the suffering that humanity chose to impose on itself, with Griffith´s rise to Femto being the metaphor for it. Guts´ character in the following arcs is deeply reflected by this as well. Being consumed by revenge, he too is blinded to what it is he should do, and chooses to follow a path that can only leave destruction in its wake, both his and others´, when just before the eclipse he was finally ready to move on and live for himself. I hear he begins to better himself once more after meeting new comrades, but it remains clear that he and Griffith are foils and parallels to one another. And it is simply beautiful to witness just how intricate the parallels and symbolisms between those two are. Nothing, absolutely no villain Naruto came up with could compare to this epic tale of the fall of a once noble man who simply wished for acknowledgement in life. Because whereas the former largely revels in its tropes without trying to go beyond their purpose, the latter has a haunting message to deliver, and does so by showing us in minute detail Griffith´s descent to darkness and the meaning behind it. In fact, I´m afraid my piece here does not do him or the work in general justice considering how hastily and shoddily this was written, as there are books that could be written about Berserk. It is by no means flawless, but I do think it is a truly amazing work and Griffith is, along with Guts and the manga´s various other themes, encompassing, among others, fatherhood, human selfishness and depravity, and the act of enduring life´s hardships, one of the central reasons behind its greatness.
Following that, we have an incredibly brief stop from a woman who ate a piece of fruit.
(should never have been in the manga to begin with - oh, that said, she wasn't in it to begin with... perhaps she should have stayed that way).
Too bad Naruto wasn´t a One Piece fan. Could have simply drowned the woman with the chakra chakra fruit.
Pretty much this. One of the things I pay a lot of attention to nowadays when I read something is how pound for pound the characters are used. What I have come to the conclusion of is that while no series is perfect in this regard, and "how well used" they are is VERY subjective, I think a lot of series tend to waste sometimes close to half their cast by not giving them any proper development or value as the series progresses. Naruto completely abandons a large portion of the Konoha 11 in the second half. Which to me is a sad sight, considering how well done they were overall in the first half. This is by no means exclusive to Naruto, as I think pretty much every one of the big three and many others have this problem to a degree. It becomes quantity over quality, which I personally don't think is ever good unless you are really going for comedy (in which case personalities and such are good enough many times).
Eh, Bleach does have this problem as well, but One Piece? If we´re talking about side characters from an island, yes, but that´s due to the format of the story, and can´t be considered that much of a fault as such. The individual arcs tend to conclude those characters´ stories without any left over points to address, so it would be rather forced to keep reusing them on islands they have no business on. The characters who ARE present in most arcs do also get their time to shine. Especially in the recent arcs, Oda has made it a point to make use of the straw hats and their strengths as much as possible, with even Brook (the one who was arguably least useful before the current arc) becoming a favourite of many with the amount of work and dedication he puts in. Developments are admittedly very slow, but hardly inexistent, and characters that should not be forgotten about rarely are.
EDIT: Well, in any case, sup guys, newbie here. Was a lurker for a while though, and just wanted to comment on Berserk because hey, Berserk. And images don´t work. Probably because I suck. Oh well.
Nevertheless,
@Emperor Spriggan has my compliments for campaining so hard for Naruto. I unfortunately am no fan of it but it is always nice to see passionate people.
)
