Well, if it were to join the deadpad and allowed to vote that would be more problematic considering how chatty our hosts are once the dead starts crawling into the deadpad.
Besides the Wraith part can still be changed. Kinda like an Illusion which cannot be touched and where the Shaman decides whenever or not to keep his Wraiths, depending on his trust in them or in the case of the Mafia Shaman saving their guys votes in case 1-2 of them die early on.
Ah, I should add that the real roles get revealed if the Wraith "dies" a 2nd time, shouldn't I?
The idea here is instead of giving Mafia/Anti-town close to 40-50% of the player base per match to have a fighting chance against town(instead of the regular 33%), to give them abilities that help them gain a foot up against town abilities/numbers thus the alignment change of Underboss (needs a condition to be triggered so not OP), the "shielding" aka block ability of Consigliere (focused on only one aspect of the game, so not OP as well plus the [Classified] result makes the block obvious, it also gives Mafia a 2nd Priority 1 role which they desperately need, since they face many prio 2s with only Escort as their sole way of blocking them) and extra kills (only usable by ME himself plus he basically cannot use 2 extra kills from the entire group, so he is better in larger mafia groups than small ones).
I hope the Council find those ideas interesting and will give them serious consideration and maybe a testing chance in the future.
Thank you very much for reading all that.
@Vandred You wanted to give me some feedback on those three roles? Or four? *wink wink*
So I know Ghoul got rejected (sad mafia noises) but I still think Mafia needs at least one role that interacts with the graveyard to either be able to "fake" one of the townie graveyard involved roles when inspected by a spy or to hinder the town graveyard involved investigators to hide their evil deeds a bit better. So here it is:
Inigo Montoya / Inigo Montoya’s Father (Secondary)
If Inigo Montoya’s Father dies by lynching, the other person learns they are Inigo Montoya and can - at any point in the game and only once - choose one of the people who voted for him and kill them at Day (saying “Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!”)
If Inigo Montoya’s Father dies at Night, Inigo Montoya can each Night try to kill who he thinks killed him, and if he guesses correctly his target dies (if he’s wrong, nothing happens).
During the time Inigo Montoya is Inigo Montoya, his normal role can not be used, because Inigo Montoya only cares about avenging his father.
All things considered I believe putting two Bosses in the same team already achieves a very similar result without the extra steps, so I don't see the role adding too much to the mafia sandbox .3.
It's not too bad in my opinion, but I prefer when mafia is forced to focus on identifying the investigative townies to kill or block rather than being able to protect their own "blindly" without having to worry about finding out who's the Det or Mort (or dealing with them). Also, it overlaps with Boss a little, and yes I'd remove the second line. Though as I said, I wouldn't be strongly against it as there's still a place in the game for it.
Feels like the same concept as a Mafia Bomb (giving -1 to town or rival scum to make up for the mafia team's -1), except you can aim the kill - which, most of the time, is a big improvement. A bit basic but not bad either. Though it should be kept in mind that the restriction of having to kill immediately after the first teammate is gone means it will almost always be an early kill.
All things considered I believe putting two Bosses in the same team already achieves a very similar result without the extra steps, so I don't see the role adding too much to the mafia sandbox .3.
I wanted to suggest a modification to the boss role.
If the last boss in a mafia team is killed or lynched, the boss can PM the hosts to select a mafia member to fill the roll of the boss in the night phase, the new boss isn't a role or a secondary role, but simply transfers the responsibility of coordinating the mafia team.
He is usually in charge of coordinating the Mafia activity at night and may act as the contact person to the host. In case of disagreement with his fellow mafias over Night activities he has the final say.
The killed boss has 1 phase to transfer, otherwise the team will be boss-less. (The transfer rules could be improved).
~~~~~~~~
Otherwise, split the role.
Every game the mafia team votes a coordinator in the first night phase, coordinator can be voted again after they die, or the dead coordinator can choose his successor.
The boss role will then only be about showing as innocent under investigation.
I wanted to suggest a modification to the boss role.
If the last boss in a mafia team is killed or lynched, the boss can PM the hosts to select a mafia member to fill the roll of the boss in the night phase, the new boss isn't a role or a secondary role, but simply transfers the responsibility of coordinating the mafia team.
The killed boss has 1 phase to transfer, otherwise the team will be boss-less. (The transfer rules could be improved).
~~~~~~~~
Otherwise, split the role.
Every game the mafia team votes a coordinator in the first night phase, coordinator can be voted again after they die, or the dead coordinator can choose his successor.
The boss role will then only be about showing as innocent under investigation.
I think we talked about this at some point, when deciding who to lead mafia when there‘s disagreements. It‘s generally decided to be a „majority democracy“ now I think. But stuff like Boss ordering his teammates like 1, 2, etc to make them the „next“ leader for disagreement cases was considered but dropped for some reason.
I wanted to suggest a modification to the boss role.
If the last boss in a mafia team is killed or lynched, the boss can PM the hosts to select a mafia member to fill the roll of the boss in the night phase, the new boss isn't a role or a secondary role, but simply transfers the responsibility of coordinating the mafia team.
The killed boss has 1 phase to transfer, otherwise the team will be boss-less. (The transfer rules could be improved).
~~~~~~~~
Otherwise, split the role.
Every game the mafia team votes a coordinator in the first night phase, coordinator can be voted again after they die, or the dead coordinator can choose his successor.
The boss role will then only be about showing as innocent under investigation.
Every time I think about the necessity of someone having final decision authority in a Mafia team, I can't find a single instance where I've personally come across this issue. Are in-team frictions that common? There are even Boss-less teams where that detail is disregarded completely.
I could agree on what Gry mentioned or the Boss only designating the first successor. Either while he's still alive or when he dies, he says "X will have the final say from on", then X will be able to do the same and so on.
All things considered I believe putting two Bosses in the same team already achieves a very similar result without the extra steps, so I don't see the role adding too much to the mafia sandbox .3.
It's not too bad in my opinion, but I prefer when mafia is forced to focus on identifying the investigative townies to kill or block rather than being able to protect their own "blindly" without having to worry about finding out who's the Det or Mort (or dealing with them). Also, it overlaps with Boss a little, and yes I'd remove the second line. Though as I said, I wouldn't be strongly against it as there's still a place in the game for it.
By removing the 2nd line it becomes a easily understood mafia role. I think mafia is in dire need of a 2nd "escort" type, but 2 full blown escorts are really strong I remember a game where two escorts were able to really put a stop to town actions over time. The Consigliere on the other hand is less of an escort but more of an "aura block adder" basically an effect role. Town got 5 investigative roles, not counting the sanity ones a extra, so he can work in that regard. He could also become some sort of "Mafia Bodyguard" by adding that his chosen protection gains a daykill protection like BG does with his night protection as Mafia is pretty helpless against Vigilante, Cowboy, bomb and Prosecutor. Or maybe the Mafia Doc needs to have that daykill protection so that both town and mafia have one single daykill protection role.
Feels like the same concept as a Mafia Bomb (giving -1 to town or rival scum to make up for the mafia team's -1), except you can aim the kill - which, most of the time, is a big improvement. A bit basic but not bad either. Though it should be kept in mind that the restriction of having to kill immediately after the first teammate is gone means it will almost always be an early kill.
Yeah, but it can also really help early game, like in the game we just had if mafia had a mafia executioner then those 3 early kills (though I wonder how to count the 2 kills at once on day 2, probably only as a single extra kill since ME cannot stack) could have changed the flow of the game big time. Being able to direct 2 instead of 1 kill even at the cost of a lost teammate is huge. As long as ME lives he basically gives his teammates the "guided bomb" effect so to say though he can be blocked or his target can be protected by docs/bg. So while it is basic it would help mafia be able to gain a foot-step back when suffering an early set-back.
Noice~~~ <3 <3 <3
I could live with a simple anti-investigator/mortician/spirit/necromancer medium mafia role or support to Janitor role as the Grave robber and Janitor got a real combo going - like Janitor kills and hides the role but Grave robber steals the body so even when Janitor dies the body remains gone for mortician and spirit medium or necromancer to do stuff with.
But I figured that having a greedy choice to make since the grave robber can only hide total amount of bodies -1 (one day lynch/one night kill - one body hide = 1 body remains for investigative roles plus necro to make use of) makes it interesting especially with the dead player name returning as a vote. Like do I want to hide as many bodies as possible or do I leave some extra bodies out and go for more votes to mess with day votes?^^
I also would like to make some suggestions on improving Traitor and SK:
Traitor (Mafia): The Traitor can only be assigned to a Townie role, but he can only win with his Mafia team. This secondary role lets the player know the names of all his Mafia team's members at the start of the game, and if the player is targeted by that Mafia team with a successful killing action, he gets recruited and becomes a normal Mafia Member.
I would change this into
Traitor (Mafia): The Traitor can only be assigned to a Townie role, but he can only win with his Mafia team. This secondary role lets the player know the names of all his Mafia team's members at the start of the game, and if the player is targeted by that Mafia team with a successful action, he gets recruited and becomes a normal Mafia Member.
This way the traitor can be recruited with kill action, investigative action, steal action, block action and protection action meaning no longer the killer can only recruit but also regular action users like Mafia Detective, Mafia Escort, Mafia Pirate and Mafia Doc (if he gets added to the game, perhaps with daykill protection as an extra). Normally besides Killer Mafia tends to have 1-2 extra night actions. This simple change would increase the chances for traitor to be recruited without having Mafia to waste a kill which often really doesn't help them, making traitor more of a "blocked kill" role than a "gained a useful extra team member" role since they are only normal Mafia Member and nothing else.
This way traitors will be less likely to "kill" mafia members to check their sanity as they know they got an increased chance of being recruited while Mafia knows they could use a late game useless M. Det (since everyone claims roles) to check for traitors to recruit them. Or an early escort block turns out to be a recruitment instead which is also good for mafia.
Sleeper on the other hand should stay at kill only because he is unaware of being sleeper and because sleeper can win pro-town if never recruited whereas traitor cannot.
Serial Killer (Third Party): The Serial Killer is like a lone Mafia Member. He kills once per night and his goal is to be the sole survivor. (GAME 5)
I would change this into
Serial Killer (Third Party): The Serial Killer is like a lone Mafia Member. He kills once per night and his goal is to be the sole survivor. (GAME 5) If an anti-town role dies the SK gain a secondary kill action in the following night phase. He cannot have more than 2 kill actions at once.
This would fit his serial theme and increase his game participation and make him for interesting for players who got the role. Basically a Mafia Executioner but whole game wide. It is not a complicated change and it would turn the SK more serial than he is currently and also increase his survival chances, especially late game when few players remain and the SK badly need those extra kills to get to the 1-1 situation to actually win the game.
What do you guys think about those changes?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Another addition I'd like to give the SK to have him give a real chance of winning solo would be to be able to once per game do a daykill, with costing his nightkill ofc. This way the SK can win a 3-1 by doing a night kill and next day before the two town lock their votes he can do a daykill which reduces the numbers to 1-1 giving him the win. Otherwise the SK will nearly always lose the 3-1 or 2-1. I believe this to be more fair considering Santa has a goal of 5 successful nights to win and Lover have a threesome, info about mafia and their respective roles (like last game it was imba OP with the supermason turning mafia mason, like for real) which is why they win games and SS could theoretically win games if most or all night actives are gone and its crowd has grown to like 3-4 Illusions to win the game late game once all mafias are gone. Same for Mentor/Mentee as Mentor wins the game as long as his mentee takes the fall for him. SK has no such chance as he cannot recruit and he cannot kill more than once per night and he is unable to kill at day. Those changes would take care of his weakness and while not turning him into an OP TP it would make him a really scary one both town and mafia will rightfully fear:
Serial Killer (Third Party): The Serial Killer is like a lone Mafia Member. He kills once per night and his goal is to be the sole survivor. (GAME 5) If an anti-town role dies the SK gain a secondary kill action in the following night phase. He cannot have more than 2 night kill actions at once. The SK can once per game perform a day kill at the cost of his night kill action. If he had 2 night kills for the coming night phase it would be reduced by 1.
Don't think the last sentence is needed, but that way things are very clear.
What you guys think? I think this is more fair and gives Sk an actual winning chance, especially with the once per game day kill option. *fingers waving over the @ button to summon all High councils if they do not answer over the following days*
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