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Discussion Serena (Alchemy) vs. Mirajane

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Ratrace

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Also to add, even magic helps improve physically without extensive physical training as it improves the nervous system. It also supports the body's posture and even strengthens it to survive the pressures of day-to-day life and enjoy a higher quality of life overall.
it depends some spells can increase someone’s strength while another spells can increase speed but it doesn’t say anywhere that just having magic makes someone stronger
 

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it depends some spells can increase someone’s strength while another spells can increase speed but it doesn’t say anywhere that just having magic makes someone stronger
Yeah, there are spells that can do that. Though I mean naturally occurring, like with MPF, they give a quantified amount of magic power when performing spells or anything that involves MP and that gives the strength of a wizard.







 
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Axiomus

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So having too much magical body gives babies fevers. It's not like Ultear recieved any actual treatments. Those guys just kidnapped her. She was fine when she grew up. August grew up by himself too.

MPF is an excellent example of why MP doesnt increase stats. Cana was able to score higher on the MPF than Jura. Cana's physical strength and durability is nowhere near Jura's.

Pretty much depends on the type of magic someone uses
Exactly. The actual magic someone uses is almost always more important than how much MP they have.
 

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would you consider Wendy a baby? Selene was concerned for her safety as with her having more power than just should which shows it can happen at any point in life. She did get some treatment which is physical, physical one, and then she escaped with her own power, destroying the facility. August had parents of two of the strongest wizards alive, their genes would be passed down. That is not right as Fairy Glitter uses the MP of the light of the sun moon and stars. Only if it is hax which disregards stats.
 

Axiomus

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Wendy was fine. Selene thought Irene was an imp that was possessing Wendy. When Irene explained herself, Selene had no issues with letting Irene remain.

Ultear had Ur's genes, who was on the level of a wizard saint. What actual treatments did they give to Ultear?

Cana is still not physically stronger or more durable than Jura.
 

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that doesn’t change how she knows that Wendy has abnormal amount of magic that Wendy shouldn’t have, it is because they live as symbiotes. Could got it from her father’s side. Surgery to make her magic power increase. No, but not to say that MP is hers as it’s not.
 

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Yeah, there are spells that can do that. Though I mean naturally occurring, like with MPF, they give a quantified amount of magic power when performing spells or anything that involves MP and that gives the strength of a wizard.







please use spoiler tags
 

Axiomus

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The magical power wasnt hurting Wendy. Once it was clear Irene wasnt out to hurt Wendy, Selene was fine leaving things alone.

So let me get this straight: Ultear had a fever because she had too much magic power. So they gave her surgery to increase her magic power? At best, this proves that infants get fevers for having too much magic power.

The MP is in her body. It's not even like it runs out. Cana can use Fairy Glitter over and over again.
 

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It would if Irene was not living symbiotic with her, that was the point of Selene bringing it up, someone alive for 400 years. The fact that surgery a PHYSICAL process gave her increased magic power shows that it is physical as surgeries improve physical conditions. No, this proves that anyone can experience it at any age. No, it is gathered into a beam, it even says in chant it guides fairies, nothing about it being inside her, not inside her as that is how it works.
 
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Axiomus

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Selene was gonna kill Irene if she meant Wendy harm, not because Wendy couldn't handle her magic power.

Lol. So Ultear was never going to die from having too much magic power. They *lied* to Ur about her being dead, and gave her surgery to give her even more magic power. Anyways, none of this proves MP = Stats.

The MP of Fairy Glitter is literally in Cana's arm.
 

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That’s not what she said, she said that she sensed Tremendous Magic Power within Wendy’s vessel, something vessel far more than she could hold, it is by definition related to magic power capacity, no different from Dragons inside Dragon Slayers, symbiotic. No, she was going to die, just because they were going to increase her magic power doesn’t mean they can’t experiment with her body to make her handle it, so they did save her for their own benefits, you saw her suffering from the magic power within her, whether they lied or not is irrelevant as their procedures are physical change to Ultear which she gained power from. That is magic spell, not magic power, two different concepts.
 

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You do realize symbiotic just means "mutually beneficial", right? You know how I know Wendy's body wouldn't suffer any injuries if she had Irene's MP? Because Irene forced a personality enchantment on body before in Alvarez. It was the very same enchantment, but their relationship wasn't symbiotic. The only difference now is that Irene means Wendy no harm.
Anyways, Selene said that Wendy possessed more magical power than her vessel should be able to hold, so she assumed Wendy was possessed by some imp. Because Irene explained that she meant Wendy no harm, Selene realized there was nothing to be done. This has nothing to do with the Dragon Soul magic that the dragons used to seal themselves inside the dragon slayers. Irene doesn't even know this magic, it's not an enchantment, and the parent dragons were never described as being symbiotes. Anyways, Selene didn't even remotely imply that the amount of magic power inside of Wendy was causing harm. She merely thought Wendy was possessed, and when it turned out she wasn't....She left it alone.

I wanted to see how far you would take the Ultear thing, but this is getting ridiculous. They sent her to a magical research facility, and experimented on her until her mind and body broke down. So (1) you haven't actually demonstrated they did anything to help Ultear and (2) the thing they actually did to Ultear was experiment on her until her body broke down in an attempt to increase her MP. Which is the exact opposite of increasing her stats. Lol.
The magic power of Fairy Glitter is in Cana's arm. Bluenote was gonna take Fairy Glitter from Cana after he killed her. Fairy Glitter doesn't take magic power from the sun, moon, and stars. It takes actual energy, light, from the sun, moon, and stars and hits the target with them. The magical power to do that is in Cana's arm.
 

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Yes, no difference here, no, because her personality did not carry her magic power or abilities, and makes sense as she doesn't want anything to do with her original body, otherwise Wendy would transform into Irene like in Aldoron's arc. That is still hazardous to her if she cannot handle it. Yes it does as as they would have magic left inside of them afterward to use, does not matter as any foreign entity that inserts themselves into an object would have an affect if their magic is stronger and hostile, or not if an ally. She literally said the amount of power her vessel was more than should be reasonably hold as in overflowing and dangerous because of a hostile force, because they are beneficial there is no harm. You can deny it all you want but fact is fact, You said it yourself, they experimented on her body so that means you acknowledged that was what led to her gaining more power, yes they did helped her but only for their own end, which is why she is no longer sick, Broke down? if she could get away without being caught and even blew up the facility, that is hardly broken, that is a contradiction. No, that is the spell, the magic power is in the stars, sun and moonlight, which is magic power as the MPF proved, and even before that with Moondrip that concentrates the magic of the moon as moonlight, and it pollutes the body, and what pollutes the body? radiation, which is what light is concentrated from sources like that, almost everything in Fairy Tail world is magic power as it is in nature as well as in spirit, coming together creates magic spells.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Respectfully, stop making things up just because you can't prove your point.
 

Axiomus

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Again, Irene used a personality enchantment to take over Wendy's body when they were fighting. This was not a symbiotic relationship, and it did not damage Wendy's body. IAlso, rene's personality enchantment did carry with her some magic power and abilities. She was literally enchanting Erza's armors to explode.

Lol, whose making things up? I literally quoted you the pages. Selene never said anything about the magical power inside of Wendy being dangerous. Overflowing magical power isn't a thing. Literally nobody has died from having too much magic. Or even gotten hurt. You know how I know this? Because Alta face boosted everyone's MP to such a level where they couldn't even use magic. Every single member of team Natsu had more magic power than they've ever had before. It didn't hurt them.

Ultear literally said "I was just a small child, but they put me through experiments to increase my magical power, until my mind and body broke down". Far from increasing her strength, they broke her body down.

Lol Bluenote was gonna take Fairy Glitter from Cana after killing her. He can't do that if Fairy Glitter isn't in Cana's body.
 

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Because Irene had greater magic power than Wendy's to take over her body and that she left her magic power and abilities behind. No, nothing of the sort as she stated Magic abilities and power have lessened as they are left over to her original body, she has been using Wendy's magic power and abilities, that is her abilities with her potential, they never transformed into their original appearances which allows them to use their original magic, if not they do not transfer over. and those pages do not prove what you claim, broken down her body means nothing if she could still move to escape and destroy the facility, broken down is metaphorical, unless you claim her mind was literally broken too where she becomes indifferent to life, docile or comatose. Yes she did, having more magic power inside of her than she reasonably should for her vessel to hold, everyone has a limit like a container, which they can't fill beyond a capacity. Ur was going to before she was experimented on which allowed her to survive and become stronger, there are cases where even overburning on magic can lead to cancer, and even Azuma died from having all of Tenrous' and FT's power. They were in Eltarius which makes them stronger anyway, they play by the rules there, just like in Edolas where they have no magic to use. Again you take that way too literally, she can still move, her body is fine and ran away and then destroyed the facility, if you take it literally, then why is she still conscious and aware if her mind is broken? So? Magic is physical afterall, so not out of the question unless it is conditional being a FT member, or if you can supposedly trace to the source of magic.
 

Axiomus

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Irene took *some* of her magic power into Wendy's body. She left this power behind when Wendy forced her back out, and Wendy called upon this power when she fought Nebal. Irene enchanted Erza's armor to explode. This isn't Wendy's magic. This a different type of magic than what Wendy uses altogether. This is Irene's magic that she carried over to Wendy's body. Wendy used deus corana in Irene's body. This is one of Wendy's spells. Irene has never used this.

The rules for magic are the same in Elentear and Earthland. Actually, I stand corrected. Overflowing magical power *is* a thing. It just isn't anything close to what you're describing. When your magic overflows, your body thinks you have no zero magic and you can't use any powers. It doesn't spill out from your body and kill you lol. This is yet another example of why MP =/= stats. Every single member of team Natsu had more MP than they've ever had before. But until they actually learned how to surpass their limits and use magic again, they were reduced to the level of a regular human because they couldn't actually use any of their powers.
That wasn't a metaphor. The experiments broke down her mind and body at the cost of increasing her magic power. Then she saw Ultear with Gray and Lyon. Then she went back for more experiments until she could use MAGIC to break the facility. This doesn't prove MP = stats. This just proves that even if you're a kid that has a fever because you have high magic, people can give you experiments to give you even more magic at the cost of your health. You still haven't pointed out a single thing the cult actually did to help Ultear. She had a fever because she had too much magic. They gave her surgery to increase her magic power at the cost of her health. Sounds to me like the fever wasn't actually that serious to begin with, and Ultear managed to survive despite being pumped with more even more MP than she originally had.

Azuma didn't die because he had the magic power of the Tenrou Tree. He died because of his lost magic had a side effect.

The magic power of Fairy Glitter doesn't come from the moon, sun, or stars. The magic power comes from the tattoo on Cana's arm. Cana is using that magic power to gather light from the sun, moon, and stars to hit the enemy with. You can argue that moonlight it gathers has *some* magic power, but it doesn't matter. The very fact that Bluenote can take Fairy Glitter from Cana after killing her tells us that Fairy Glitter's magic power is in the tattoo, and that tattoo is on Cana's arm. The fact that you have to make up all these random rules for why Fairy Glitter's MP doesn't affect Cana's physical strength or durability says it all.
 
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Why didn’t we see that tho? Wendy transforms into Irene to use her magic power and spells. Correction, it is based on the memory between the two with their connection, not about how magic power was inside her. But that was Wendy’s spell and with Wendy’s magic power and this was with her potential, magic Wendy doesn’t use normally, Wendy doesn’t blast as a beam and fly normally until Irene was involved. Same with Wendy, her magic power and spells don’t carry over, also, magic is genetic too so nothing she can use without something like copy magic or absorption or if the body knows that magic. Incorrect as Fairy Tail wizards have constantly been shown to use magic to their excess time and time again and with negative results at times, and Neinhart has overflowing magic too but it spills out over his body as it seethes from him. Azuma overflowed with magic and it eventually killed him. It shows that either your body adapts to hold the magic or let it spill out from you, and that concept of overflow is only relevant in Elentear since it provides more magic than normal. They literally got more magic than what they spend by using the magic of tomorrow against Dorma Anim. Yet she can move around like she was on spring break, we do not even see scars or stitches or cuts or dirts, anything despite seeing them cut her open. And healing magic is considered lost magic which makes any medical procedure less than perfect. by definition it is a metaphor. Besides that, people’s bodies can be tired after training in both mind, body, vigor, etc. wrong, she never said when she can use magic, she said, when she became more powerful, in the anime she used ice magic to escape, which means she could use magic. It does as so many examples provided proven. No, that is how physical surgeries go after procedures like that, tired but slow recovery and you become better. Just like any training, strain to produce gains. No pain no gain. They made her stronger and capable of wielding more magic, which was already shown in both examples that you provided, surgeries makes one physically enhanced, where was it stated that her health declined that is counterintuitive to your claim. She is just tired, which is common for any surgical procedure. He said because he used it to excess, side affects varies. Yes, they do as stated in the manga. No, that is just a magic. Power comes from nature too which she used to collect it. It is stated that it is magic power inside the light. it does because moonlight has magic power as Galuna arc stated. There is a difference between magic, power and magic spells, a host’s magic power expires upon their deaths, only one who’s magic power continues to exist is Dog Dude’s. This goes to show magic spells are separate from one’s magic power, you stated that it gathers energy that is not magic power and throws it at their enemy, fine, but how do you explain all that “Not magic energy” converted to MP on the MPF? That is a contradiction. Even when someone who is not using any magic at all is still able to get some magic power output with just a shoulder charge. Rules you mean like the freakin manga? Go read it again and see what really happened.

I will ask you once to prove where it is stated for Ur that her “health declined” during her surgeries, explicitly, not just assuming by a vague quote about breaking one’s body when they can move perfectly normal.
 
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Axiomus

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We did. Wendy said that the time Irene took over her body left a residual thought (like Zirconis and Atlas Flame), and Wendy was able to enchant this power to gain some of Irene's strength. Wendy can fly, and has flown with wind magic. She's also lifted people much bigger than herself off the ground with her wind magic. What Irene did was nothing special. Enchanting Erza's armors to explode? That is flat out magic that Wendy doesn't use. Deus Corona is one of Wendy's spells that Irene doesn't have. Wendy used it in Irene's body.

Neinhart didn't have any negative effects from Irene's enchantment. What's your point?

Azuma turning into a tree had nothing to do with how much magic power he has. Lost magic has side effects, and Arc of Tree's side effect is that it turns you into a tree.

Ultear's statement wasn't vague. If your body and mind is breaking down, your health is suffering. That should just be obvious. The experiments they gave her increased her magic power at the cost of her physical health and mental stability. Besides, we're missing the far larger issue here: Ultear's MP levels aren't anything special once she became an adult. All you've proven so far is that children can get fevers for having too much MP. This doesn't prove MP = Stats. It doesn't even prove that you need to have above average physical strength to handle MP. You just need to have the body of a regular adult.

Fairy Glitter can be transferred from person to person, which means it has magic power. A person's magic doesn't disappear when they die. Bluenote literally talks about taking Cana's magic, specifically Fairy Glitter, from her after she dies. Franmalth took Hade's power after he died too. You're trying to argue that Fairy Glitter is just a magical spell. This makes no sense.
Only the moon has been stated to have magical power by itself. Even if I agree that *some* of the MP of Fairy Glitter comes from the magic of the moon, it wouldn't be all of it. Most of Fairy Glitter's magical power still comes from the tattoo on Cana's arm. That MP doesn't increase Cana's stats in any meaningful way. Once again, MP =/= Stats.

Bottom line is that nobody has ever died, or even gotten hurt having too much MP. Alta Face literally filled every member of team Natsu with more MP than they've ever had before in their lives. Merely having the MP in their bodies didn't increase their stats. They had to actually use their powers. There might be some merit in arguing that your body has to be physically strong enough to actually use strong magic, but the limit isn't very high. Once you get to Mavis' level in physical strength, your body can handle literal infinite MP.
 
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yet Atlas and Zirconis were not inside of Wendy though, not the same thing here, yes, Magic Power that is outside of Wendy which she enchanted into herself and transformed to use. That was only with her potential, continuously untethered, not just high jumps Or dashes, that was only being blown away, temporarily, it is as she stated that it is Wendy’s potential, along with beam attacks and exploding armor, something Wendy normally does not use, her body and magic says otherwise as Wendy can use it through Irene’s body, if she didn’t have it then she couldn’t use it, plain as simple, same with Separation enchantmen, something Wendy was only able to do when taught by Irene, shows that magic is physical. Because it just spilled over, nor contained as he said his limits were outstripped. It does since that only happened after he had all that power, Lost Magic Side affects varies, Arc of Tree’s is excessiveness. And yet she recovered stronger than before. Her health is normal as we do not get any statements of deterioration of health, not in the manga or the anime and the doctors said she is a suitable vessel, and they are not a cult, they are the magic Bureau for development . Yet Ultear recovered from Both with nor problem. Special to Who though? What matters is the enemies she faces which are powerful and through circumstances too. I have proven that excess of greater magic power destroys The body, it proves magic power = stats. It does when tou don’t use magic still produces magic power. No, the difference has always been set in stone, say if what you say is true (which is not) that would make Fairy Glitter one of the most underwhelming spells of all since it can only vaporize rain droplets, that is all, and sting one’s hand a bit, hardly a spell which anyone would want. Transfering magic means you transfer a spell unless it is stated you get magic power too, it is not always a package deal. The sequal disagrees as it makes it clear that magic power disappears once a person dies, but Dog Dude’s magic persisted even after death. Irene’s magic power disappeared after her death as well. franmalth took his soul which has magic power. Bottom line is people have died and gotten hurt both notable and otherwise. Which is not the same on Earhtland since they exist in a world where rules are different and they play by them, like Edolas where they are as weak as a human without magic. Natsu had more Magic power before counteless times and that did not stop him from becoming hurt afterward. It does as Edolas proves, Natsu had the strength of hundres of body builders yet was overwhelmed by regular guards and can’t beat up a big frog. Only when Mavis uses Fairy Heart and she never used it.

here is an example I will give why MP matters in stats, Jellal used a spell which is just Grand Chariot with 2 extra stars and a slash attack that killed Alchemy God Serena without mentioning about him sinning, and with Neinhart, Jellal had murderous intent and used a stronger version of Grand Chariot to attack Neinhart with and he survived and managed to get away. And don’t say he was unconscious the entire time, they would have captured him like other Alvarez members, including Spriggans, Zeref even mentions how they can save their own lives, to a fault. Do you see the flaw in what you say?
 
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