Discussion Serena (Alchemy) vs. Mirajane

[Axiomus]

You're missing the point. Irene left behind a residual thought, which is the same thing Zirconis and Atlas Flame left behind. Residual thoughts have magic power in them. That's what Wendy enchanted to assume her Wendy Belserion form. Wendy can lift Ezel off the ground. Why wouldn't she be able to lift herself? There is nothing preventing Wendy and Irene from using their own magic while in each other's bodies, because they take a portion of their magic power into the other body when they cast the personality enchantment. They have access to the magic of the host body too.

Again, Neinhart suffered no negative effects from Irene's enchantment. What is your point?

No, the Arc of Tree's side effect isn't excesiveness. It turns you into a tree if you use too much of it. It has nothing to do with how much MP Azuma has.

Yes, Ultear recovered. Even trained in martial arts. It doesn't change the fact that surgery to increase MP had an adverse effect on her body and mind.

If Fairy Glitter is indeed just a spell, and has no magical power of it's own, then what is this light? How is it zapping Cana here? What exactly is being sealed? There is clearly magic power involved in this, and it's said to be as powerful as Fairy Law.

The sequel has done nothing to change the fact that magic power can be taken after your death. Irene's magic disappeared because she went to Edolas. Even then, we don't know if it immediately disappeared or not. The one person that died on Earthland....had his magic persist after his death. To the point where he could rebuild a new body.

Neinhart wasn't enchanted when Jellal fought him, so he had the same level of MP as God Serena. Also, Neinhart got oneshotted by Grand Chariot. God Serena tanked Grand Chariot. Jellal had to use a spell stronger than Grand Chariot to beat God Serena. All this proves is that God Serena is stronger than Neinhart. Natsu ran through enchanted Neinhart's magic and clobbered him. He couldn't do that to God Serena, or even the historia of God Serena. Heck, Neinhart's own historia traded blows with Gildarts.

 

[WoWfan]

Residual thought is not the same thing with Zirconis or Atlas, one at least had magic power of their own and one could utilize it when attached to functioning remains and were the result of Milky Way spell which calls the souls of dragons back, not personas, not the Same thing as Residual thought. Residual enchant is different which is based on memories. that was temporarily though and to trap him, and that was more levitation, not flight where she has free movement without just using gusts to dash around, before Alvarez she needed Carla to fly normally even in Dragon Force, if they did they would show if, even the anime shows a difference in magic power type they use when switching bodies, and if they did use their owj, they would transform, nothing proved that. Because his limits were removed, not contained which magic is suppose to be if you want better physical conditions. Azuma literally stated that at his death that it is excessiveness. Which are? She stated what drove her is her mother, opposite of breaking her mind, she recovers even in the facility. A feature for any spell, like earth is a feature of a spell when used, or a sword like Suzaku’s which doesn’t have magic power and yet used for spells and can be used by anyone, etc., an ability it has to zap people without permission. what is sealed is the spell itself. If there is any magic power involved it would be Mavis’ Magic Power since she too is on the island. Bluenote said even powerful spells can be trash in hands of incapable users, and Fairy Law’s affectiveness is based on level of power. It does, it shows that those like Dog Dude’s magic power is the only one known to exist after death, spells are genetic which can be taken or even used after death. No, she died and her spell which she maintained on Fiore was gone. If anything Elentear did a thing to Irene’s persona to give her magic power. Exactly, his magic power persist because he is the only one capable of that. That is because his limit removed MP doesn’t scale to his stats as opposed to actually holding his magic in his body to be stronger, it just means he can use magic to his heart’s content. And Neinhart could oneshot Jellal. It doesn’t matter even, sequel Jellal killed Alchemy GS with weaker spell and Neinhart survived and escaped from a spell stronger and with the intent to kill. Grand Chariot was stronger than the other one is which is parting the atmosphere and using real stars. Plus Brandish can still affect Natsu who was ready to fight Brandish, which is stated to be limited to those not stronger than her. GS alchemy did not tank it as he used a spell to counter it, that other spell just adds a few extra projectiles, which one is just enough to nearly kill GS.

 

[Axiomus]

How is it not? Atlas Flame and Zirconis are residual thoughts. Irene left behind a residual thought in Wendy's body. There is MP in residual thoughts. That's what Wendy enchanted to assume her Wendy Belserion form.

Come to think of it, Irene can fly in her own body. So why wouldn't this just be yet another example of Irene using her own magic in Wendy's body?

I literally do not understand what you're trying to argue with Neinhart. Again: Neinhart suffered no negative effects from Irene's enchantment. What is your point? What is it you are trying to argue here? You wanna say Neinhart surpassed his limits/has overflowing magic/whatever - fine, I'll agree. What is your point?

Ultear didn't specify. We simply know is that her mind and body broke down from the experiments to give her more magic power. You can argue Ultear recovered, but that doesn't matter. The experiments themselves increased her MP at the cost of her health.

Azuma didn't say "the side effect of his magic is excessiveness". That doesn't even make sense as a sentence. He said "Looks like I used my magic to excess". The side effect is his body turning into a tree. That happens when you use Arc of Tree too much, not because his MP was too high. If Azuma didn't use Arc of Trees, he wouldn't have turned into a tree.

Bluenote never said anything about spells. He said "Or maybe it just doesn't matter how strong the magic is when the user is trash". Fairy Law has only ever been used by 2 people, and Laxus' Fairy Law was as strong as Makarov's. It's not like there's a weaker version of Fairy Law.

Dogramag's magic was never stated to be the only magic to persist after death.

Oh, you're talking about Universe One. Sure. That spell got undone when Irene died. But even then, you can't even say that Irene's magic was gone after she died. Because right before she died, she used a personality enchantment on Wendy and that persisted long after her death.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2024, Original Post Date: Jan 12, 2024 ---

Yeah dude. I still have no clue what you're arguing with Neinhart. First off, God Serena was revived with alchemy. He doesn't use alchemy. He uses magic. He has the same amount of magic power as Neinhart. Second, Jellal essentially drowned. Kagura tanked the same hit. Third, Jellal parting the skies doesn't make Grand Chariot stronger than Orion. Finally, Brandish is an excellent example of why MP =/= Stats. Neinhart had more MP than Brandish could effect. Brandish could still affect Natsu. Natsu clobbered Neinhart, despite having less MP.

 

[WoWfan]

no, they are spirits, not thoughts. Irene is the only one with residual thougth which is just memory of their interaction, yes, which is the only way to use her magic and power. She uses some other spell, she marvels at the applications Sky magic can be used for when at full potential. Because again, his limit is removed, his magic is not bound to simply his physical body, while the only way to increase one’s magic power with stats improvement is physical alteration such as surgery or training or enhancing nerves and turning them into vessel for magic power. Yet she is not a doctor so she would be overly dramatic when there are actual doctors, broke down meaning she was just strained and recovered overtime, happens for everyone like that, Second origins shows this, one can feel more magic but suffer physical trauma. Show it? Show it blatently said it cost her her health? Because not only does it not say that but she got over her fever and never said my health had declined over the years. His is used to excess, that is something for him, which is not a factor for everyone, yet so happens when he had all the power of Tenrou and FT? A guild with Gildarts in it. yet he used Arc of Trees before even when being pushed before his fight with Erza. That is basically the same thing, magic can be trash even in the hands of weak wizards, like owl boy against Gray. Also to add with Second origin, they talk about how wizards have a container for magic power which has a “limit” on how much they handle. And with second origin, they can gain more but it comes with hellish strain on the body which is stated they gained more magic but their bodies are sore, no different from exercising and your body aches. Then there is Edolas humans, there are people where are just above normal without magic in Edolas like Mystogan who became a S-Class wizard. There is Byro who dodged Taurus’ attack who not long ago could react to shotgun pellets at close range and he survived being hit by Virgo who could take hits from Natsu and vice versa, he could beat powerful monkeys when he was a kid without spells Erza could lift a horn more massive than her body yet beat Edolas Soldiers with just a sword. There is no way you are going to tell me that Natsu would still have said strength even without access to magic when average soldiers taken out by average sword swings can take him out. And there is even Wendy with her potential can overpower Erza. And don’t say she isn’t holding back as she stated recently that she doesn’t hold back even against FT members, she just wouldn’t kill which she needed a reminder of. Then there was Laxus who was a weak boy until Ivan put the dragon lacrima inside of him which made him stronger and DS can change one’s physical form too, and taking it out would revert him back to how he use to be. There was, Mavis improved on it over the years when using it, FL’s affectiveness it tied to one’s magic power level, that is why it did not work on Spriggans when Makarov used it. That is the only one we know off, and Elf dude made it out to be something unique. I use alchemy as the name for that version of GS as to show the difference between the two. If it was not gone then why doesn’t anyone feel the dead’s magic power inside their corpses? Their souls would have MP yeah But that was just her persona, and before her death. Don’t recall that being stated for that version, he was unconscious before drowning as it takes 3-5 minutes to do so, more than enough time to get to the surface, Jellal covered her. It does as it required energy to do so, and you think that is not impressive? Orion is just 2 extra stars, nothing special. Why? Because Brandish could mot affect MP that are not limited to Neinhart’s container? That shows that MP = Stats since his MP leaves his body, not held inside it Which makes one stronger physically. And even during training such as meditation to increase magic power, it requires changing your nervous system into a vessel for magic power, which is physical too and helps strengthen one’s body by supporting their poster. And shown that even there is it physically stressful like with Lucy. Even learning something without physical exercise is still exercise with your brain, you feel the burn there which helps develops nervous system which intern helps the body develop through learning and experience.

 

[Axiomus]

Alright, Im not going to argue with you on whether or not Zirconis and Atlas Flame are residual thoughts. But Selene noted that Wendy has a tremendous amount of magic power because of Irene's personality enchantment. You clearly impart some of your MP onto someone when using personality enchant. The same personality enchantment was used in Alvarez when Irene took over Wendy's body. Wendy's body suffered no damage, despite the fact that their relationship was clearly not symbiotic back then.

What does Neinhart's magic surpassing his limits have to do with anything? I just showed you that "magical overflow" simply refers to when your body has so much magic that you cant use any. When you surpass your limit you're just teaching your body to use magic again. Neinhart has the MP levels of a Spriggan, even without Irene's enchantment. He was enchanted with even more magic power, to no detriment of his physical stats, and Natsu oneshotted him.

It does blatantly say it cost Ultear her health. She said her mind and body broke down. You simply refuse to take this statement at face value. Ultear was suffering from a fever because she had too much magical power. The cult used experiments to increase her MP levels even more. This tells us that Ultear's fever wouldnt have killed her in the first place. She recovered despite the experiments increasing her magic power even more. I dont know why you're bringing up second origin. Unless you're arguing the cult did surgery to unlock second origin, it doesnt apply here. Also, I've mentioned this before, but this only applies to children. Once Ultear grew up, her MP levels were nothing special. Like below Jura. Plenty of adults are walking around with Ultear's level of MP or higher, with no detriment to their health.

The side effect of arc of time is turning into a tree when you use it too much. This has nothing to do with how much magic power Azuma had in his body. If Azuma had used any other magic, he wouldnt have turned into a tree. Lucy had the MP of everyone on the continent of Ishgal. She didnt turn into a tree casting Fairy Sphere.

Anyone can dodge Taurus, even without magic. Virgo is not Natsu tier in strength, nor durability. Just because Natsu isnt using flames, doesnt mean he isnt using magic. His dragon slaying magic enchants the propeprties of a dragon on to his body, and this includes physical strength. Byro drank a potion that turned him into an octopus after Virgo hit him with spica hole. Erza ate x-pills along with Gray and had access to her magic by the time she showed up.

Mavis made changes to Fairy Law to make it less lethal. Law required to you to make a decision on who to kill, and that was what got her cursed by Ankhseram. Fairy Law just targets the enemy in your heart, so you dont get cursed. Anyways, Fairy Glitter was said to be as powerful as Fairy Law. Cana doesnt have Laxus or Makarov level stats.

We know plenty of people who left magic power behind after they died. Igneel. Silver. Atlas Flame. Irene. The guildmaster of Cait Shelter was literally a thought projection made by some dead guy. Wraith is literally a ghost. Bluenote talked about taking Fairy Glitter from Cana after she died. He cant do that if there's no magic power to take.

It doesnt take 3-5 minutes to drown. It takes seconds. If Jellal was winded by the attack and forgot the breath, that's all it takes. Anyways, Jellal got back up and was in perfect fighting shape afterwards. I have no idea why you think comparing Neinhart to God Serena proves MP = stats. Neinhart wasnt enchanted when he fought Jellal, so he had the same level of MP as God Serena. No matter whohas better durability, it would prove MP ≠ Stats.

Brandish could not shrink Neinhart himself. So whatever Neinhart's MP was doing, it was preventing Brandish's magic from working on his body. His body still wasnt durable enough to tank hits from base Natsu.

I never said parting the sky wasnt impessive. I said it doesnt makes Grand Chariot hit harder. Parting the sky is simply an MP flex, similar to Nats burning the GMG stadium. Natsu can use stronger attacks without burning everything in the area. Orion is simply a stronger spell than Grand Chariot.

MP =/= Stats. Lucy feeling a bit tired after meditating didnt make her physically stronger. August has more MP than God Serena. Brandish stabbed him with an enlarged knife. Take that same knife and try to stab God Serena's diamond form, and it'll do nothing. The magic you actually use is far more important than how much magic power you have.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2024, Original Post Date: Jan 12, 2024 ---

You cant develope your nerves by thinking. Thinking is also not the same as physical exercise. Is there some benefits to visualization and meditation?Sure. But it's nowhere near as good as actual training. Nobody's ever built muscle by meditating instead of lifting. Anyways, exercise isnt even what Im talking about. What Im saying is MP =/= stats, because the magic you use is far more important than the amount of magic power you have. This is plainly obvious when it comes to something like speed, when Racer is obviously faster than people with more MP than him. It's also plainly obvious when it comes to things like durability, when Madmole is more durable than people with more MP than him. It's also plainly obvious when it comes to attack power, when Natsu hits harder than people with more MP than him.

 

[WoWfan]

or that is because she was in elentir which has an affect on magic there and Irene woke up from it so it clearly gave her magic power. No unless it is stated, it is just the memory between. Which she was nearly dead, and that is just her persona, nothing about magic power, if it did, Wendy would have known about Irene’s persona, never stated as she said the abilities and MP have lessened because the body that has those, she speaks as though she is Wendy. Because MP containers have a limit and his surpasses it, meaning that it doesn’t reflect his physical stats. You would have to train to increase its capacity to hold mp. That is only relevant in Elentir which we see plenty of wizards push beyond their limits before and still use magic. In fact that proves my point that so much your body can’t use it which it develops physically like Wendy did. But again only relevant in Elentir. His magic was spilling out of his body through which means his physical body did not change to adapt to it. Again, not physical stats which leaks out of his body. No, body and mind are the physical form of the human and the mind is one’s consciousness, health is the ability to be free of illness or injuries, we do not see any of those, in fact, her surgeries saved her from the fever that was caused from too much magic power. It did as they and Ur stated that this is not uncommon. They physically changed her to be a better vessel. You are wrong there as SO is related as the body suffers as you gain access to a second source of MP into you, it shows that physical affect does affect how much you can handle. Arc of tree not time. And that happened when he lost to Erza, it does as it accelerates it with more magic. Why didn’t he turn into a tree against Mira? He was clearly pushed at that point. They were given freely and connected, not stolen. No, Taurus reacted to Shotgun pellets, yet and old man like Byro can dodge despite lacking magic. Virgo tanked his blows the first time they met as she did not disappear, and she got stronger. Then you admit that he is physically weak without magic right? Just because he has dragon properties doesn’t mean he has their strength if they are overpowered by regular humans. That was before him dodging or taking hits from Virgo. Yet she did not use her full strength and didn’t need to to swing a sword. Thus different versions. It was even called Law, she did not know it at the time so didn’t matter. Only because you use the magic power in the light of stars, sun and moon, that is separate from one’s own magic power. That was before he died which became part of Natsu, that was just Silver’s spell. That was Alta’s body. No, that was just a memory which can take one’s magic power into you. So? That is a spell which was his spirit, doesn’t prove anything. So? Same with Wraith as souls have magic power, Fairy glitter is not a MP, it is a spell. Which is physical to the user, no, it proves that magic power leaves after death but spells are physically left behind. No proof of that, where was it stated that he was winded? He was not anywhere near an anchor when he was blasted which would take more than a minute to reached the bottom, and it takes a minute or so, not seconds. So? Characters have been hit without getting wounds before. It does since Neinhart escaped afterward and avoided death or capture, and that was a serious and bloodthirsty Jellal while with alchemy GS, he was not, it does. Because has had overwhelming magic power spilling out of him. Not that she couldn’t step on him physically, because his physical body was not altered. It does as it adds more magic power to the attack and even came from outer space at FTL speeds which makes it hit harder because of kinetic energy, which is part of serious GC which he used again on Acno so that is part of the spell. Incorrect it just added two more stars. Not at first as stress and tension does that to you. He had his guard down which makes anyone vulnerable to a sneak attack, like Selene, the fact she had to use an enlarged knife means she adds more magic to it. Because GS would be on guard at that point. No because magic changes with how much magic power you put in. Yes you can as “Through research with mice and humans, scientists have found that brainy activities stimulate new connections between nerve cellsand may even help the brain generate new cells, developing neurological "plasticity" and building up a functional reserve that provides a hedge against future cell loss.” Yes it does as you feel your body burn from excercise, your brain throbbed from mental activities. It does as meditation releases the physical tension and shapes your poster to have better balance. Magic is effective based on the user, even a novice can make a great spell bad as Bluenote stated. Racer uses sensory dilation magic to make himself faster. Even Angel is stronger than Gray since Femini can replicate him. That is just his spell which is stated, not natural durability since heat can beat him. Not when his heat gains more energy with higher temperature which is independent from his magic power.