Info Shin Prince of Tennis Tournament II - Information & Discussion

[Ninomiya]

So Hiyoshi feat of stomping Kaidoh/Inui is low tier?

Mukahi was there too. Hyoutei have been shown to be a team with just better Doubles prowess imo. They've only ever lost to Seigaku due to lack of stamina.
Momoshiro/Kikumaru won entirely due to Mukahi getting tired. Kaidoh/Inui won entirely due to Hiyoshi/Mukahi getting tired.
If you're going to base Mukahi/Hiyoshi dominating Kaidoh/Inui for 5 games as proof of Hiyoshi being ABOVE the Low tier in Singles then you must also be of the belief that Mukahi is above the Low tier.

I'll skip the working out part for anybody on here and clarify that Mukahi is below the Low Tier. In case people didn't know.

Hiyoshi is Low Tier. His only feat is defeating Ootori. A Low tier player. Ootori's only feat is defeating Shishido. A Low Tier player.
We also know that Hyoutei's No.2, is Akutagawa Jirou. A Low tier player imo.

 

[Phantron]

I'm curious what's the stamina rating for the 'low stamina' pair of Hyotei. They were up 5-2 when they ran out of stamina. From what I can tell they won their 5 games pretty quickly, so apparently they got tired by the time the 6th game comes around and then got destroyed. The two games Inui won doesn't count because none of those guys can return his serve, so if anything that gives the low stamina guys time to recover stamina as they've no way of returning that serve no matter what they did. So basically those two guys can barely last in a 6-0 game they won.

 

[-Ken-]

Gakuto was more debateable because he got stomp by Oshitari in tie break, which is a short match all in all that his stamina shouldn't have a real problem. And we knows Oshitari was weaker than Jirou. Which means it's most likely Wakashi that do most of the trick.

@Phantron They were out of stamina quicker than usual because of Kaidoh. It's even mention.

So let's look at each of Wakashi match then.

He lost to Echizen because his stamina is low so he couldn't keep up the tension like Echizen does for the entire match.

He lost to Inui/Kaidoh because of low stamina.

And now, that stamina problem is gone. But he should still lose to Kai? Sounds legit.

 

[Kaoz]

We also know that Hyoutei's No.2, is Akutagawa Jirou. A Low tier player imo.

I can't agree with this, or at least I don't see Oshitari as a low tier player. If you think back, Fuji is never said to have an improvement in his stats (he just develops a few counters), and he's said to be about equal to Shiraishi like that (minus the will to win which he was lacking at the beginning of the match). So while Akutagawa was stomped by Fuji, it's hard to measure his skills based on that.

 

[Ninomiya]

Gakuto was more debateable because he got stomp by Oshitari in tie break, which is a short match all in all that his stamina shouldn't have a real problem. And we knows Oshitari was weaker than Jirou. Which means it's most likely Wakashi that do most of the trick.

Nope. Nothing suggests that here even slightly.
The panels show Mukahi working just as hard as Hiyoshi or even harder in the manga.
Mukahi is shown sprinting out of his way to hit winners. They both did work there.
So if that's your reason to say Hiyoshi isn't low tier then you have to say Mukahi isn't either.

I can't agree with this, or at least I don't see Oshitari as a low tier player. If you think back, Fuji is never said to have an improvement in his stats (he just develops a few counters), and he's said to be about equal to Shiraishi like that (minus the will to win which he was lacking at the beginning of the match). So while Akutagawa was stomped by Fuji, it's hard to measure his skills based on that.

Then tell me what else there is to him beside the Magic Volley, remembering that he is weaker than Marui Bunta too, so there is a big limit to wherever his strength can range to.
He's Lower Mid at best.
I honestly see Oshitari as No.2 and I'm still in shock after reading the page that says Jirou is No.2 but that's what Konomi has said.

 

[Kaoz]

What I was trying to say with the Shiraishi comparison was that just because Fuji could easily seal MV, doesn't mean all the guys we have in mid can do the same.

 

[-Ken-]

Nope. Nothing suggests that here even slightly.
The panels show Mukahi working just as hard as Hiyoshi or even harder in the manga.
Mukahi is shown sprinting out of his way to hit winners. They both did work there.
So if that's your reason to say Hiyoshi isn't low tier then you have to say Mukahi isn't either.

Well, as long as he doesn't run out stamina, Mukahi crush both enemy. So we can say that say long as he doesn't run out stamina, Mukahi play at a level higher than low tier. He's really stuck at low tier because of low stamina, something he hasn't fix yet.

 

[floman]

Nope. Nothing suggests that here even slightly.
The panels show Mukahi working just as hard as Hiyoshi or even harder in the manga.
Mukahi is shown sprinting out of his way to hit winners. They both did work there.
So if that's your reason to say Hiyoshi isn't low tier then you have to say Mukahi isn't either.

No.2 and I'm still in shock after reading the page that says Jirou is No.2 but that's what Konomi has said.

Then again that is doubles. If Mukahi were to get over his stamina problem he would definitely be in the higher tear of doubles players. In singles Gakuto would stink. Hiyoshi on the other hand specializes in singles. I don't think you can use a doubles match to tell whether someone is a high or low tear singles player.

I really thought Oshitari was the number to too. In the anime it's mentioned a lot of times that he is the number two (I know that doesn't mean anything). He outsmarted Momoshiro even after he realized "his greatest weapon".

He even won when Momo challenged him to a power battle. He has the closed mind technique which can seal off insight based techniques and the brown bear. I think he is really underestimated and would dominate Jirou in a game.

 

[Ninomiya]

What I was trying to say with the Shiraishi comparison was that just because Fuji could easily seal MV, doesn't mean all the guys we have in mid can do the same.

Regionals!Fuji did it. Regionals!Fuji did it so badly that Jirou simply cannot win a single game from him.

Regionals!Fuji is the same guy who was completely phased by Habu lmao. Regionals!Fuji is the guy Kenya looks down on.
If Kenya looks down on a player, and I believe Kenya to be Mid tier, and the player he looks down on is the guy who annihilated Jirou, and Jirou is the confirmed No.2 of the school Hiyoshi goes to then Hiyoshi is Low tier.
From that reasoning I think Jirou is bottom of the Mid tier if you insist that he is Mid tier. The guy is a talented scrub. A talented scrub like Sengoku who is another Low tier guy.

He even won when Momo challenged him to a power battle. He has the closed mind technique which can seal off insight based techniques and the brown bear. I think he is really underestimated and would dominate Jirou in a game.

Like I said before, I'm annoyed that Konomi has displayed Yushi as 2nd strongest in terms of ability, only to then say Jirou is No.2 in the team.
I honestly thought Yushi was No.2 as well.

Well, as long as he doesn't run out stamina, Mukahi crush both enemy. So we can say that say long as he doesn't run out stamina, Mukahi play at a level higher than low tier. He's really stuck at low tier because of low stamina, something he hasn't fix yet.

No. Because Yushi who is weaker than freaking Jirou according to Konomi destroyed Mukahi 7-0 incredibly quickly.
Honestly I still can't believe Yushi isn't the No.2

Anyways Mukahi just sucks. It also means Kaidoh/Inui were still also just an average or even worse pair at that time.
Hyoutei are simply better at Doubles than Seigaku overall removing GP's Synchro.

Hiyoshi has overcome his stamina problem true, so its probably very close between him and Kai. And could go into a 7-5 sort of match If I'm honest.

 

[-Ken-]

No. Because Yushi who is weaker than freaking Jirou according to Konomi destroyed Mukahi 7-0 incredibly quickly.
Honestly I still can't believe Yushi isn't the No.2

Anyways Mukahi just sucks. It also means Kaidoh/Inui were still also just an average or even worse pair at that time.
Hyoutei are simply better at Doubles than Seigaku overall removing GP's Synchro.

Hiyoshi has overcome his stamina problem true, so its probably very close between him and Kai. And could go into a 7-5 sort of match If I'm honest.

There's nothing that doesn't show Yuushi and Jirou won't destroy Kai 7-0 too. In fact, I think that's a real possiblity. And really, if Hiyoshi is stronger than Mukahi (which is likely the case, considering his future team captain position and all), i really kinda doubt he'll lose to Kai. I just don't think Jirou is capable of playing Echizen to that point when Echizen was playing kinda even with Fuji. Hiyoshi reason of losing to Echizen is purely his stamina.

And by the way, judging from your response of judging how weak the Inui/Kaidoh pair is here, I hope there won't be any future argument bring up to make Yanagi/Kirihara more awesome. Because if you look at the scoreline with how weak the opponent team is, it seemed to be hardly impressive at all.

 

[Kaoz]

Regionals!Fuji did it. Regionals!Fuji did it so badly that Jirou simply cannot win a single game from him.

But in terms of stats (besides maybe Mental) there is no difference between Nationals!Fuji and Regionals!Fuji. Regionals!Fuji was also destroying REM!Akaya before getting hit in the head too.

Regionals!Fuji is the same guy who was completely phased by Habu lmao.

"Completely phased"? Don't make me laugh. Yeah, he didn't return it straight away, Echizen didn't return Big Bang straight away either. Does that mean Tanishi is anywhere close to Echizen overall? Of course not. In fact, Fuji returned the 6th Habu serve he was confronted with with a Hakugei, meaning that he must have already grasped the spin completely there.

Regionals!Fuji is the guy Kenya looks down on.
If Kenya looks down on a player, and I believe Kenya to be Mid tier, and the player he looks down on is the guy who annihilated Jirou, and Jirou is the confirmed No.2 of the school Hiyoshi goes to then Hiyoshi is Low tier.
From that reasoning I think Jirou is bottom of the Mid tier if you insist that he is Mid tier. The guy is a talented scrub. A talented scrub like Sengoku who is another Low tier guy.

Did you ever stop to consider that maybe Kenya didn't assess the situation correctly? Because what Shiraishi and Ryuuzaki say here and here directly contradict him.

 

[Ninomiya]

"Completely phased"? Don't make me laugh. Yeah, he didn't return it straight away, Echizen didn't return Big Bang straight away either. Does that mean Tanishi is anywhere close to Echizen overall? Of course not. In fact, Fuji returned the 6th Habu serve he was confronted with with a Hakugei, meaning that he must have already grasped the spin completely there.

Sure not completely phased, the issue is, it worked against him. on various occasions.
If Regionals!Fuji absolutely hammered Jirou and can lose points to Habu then its a pile of crap to assume Jirou is going to be doing the same thing to Hirakoba.
I think you can agree that Regionals!Fuji sucks in comparison to Nationals!Fuji.
Hirakoba was still hitting winners with Habu even afterwards so its not like it was completely stopped.

You're right with Tanishi and Big Bang against Echizen is different since we have no idea how long Echizen was trolling for.
Doesn't do anything in Jirou's favour though.

But in terms of stats (besides maybe Mental) there is no difference between Nationals!Fuji and Regionals!Fuji. Regionals!Fuji was also destroying REM!Akaya before getting hit in the head too.

But Fuji's techniques at Nationals completely compensate for their not being a big stat change so stats are hardly relevant.
Nationals!Fuji had 4thCounter for instance to shut down Habu, so the gap between Fuji at Nationals and Regionals is enormous and that shouldn't need to be explained.
And meh, how good is BM!Kirihara anyways? I mean, ignoring the crushing he received from Krauser who's a good player, his achievement was owning Prefecturals!Ryoma, beating Tachibana who he injured which takes away from the win, and apparently beating Hiyoshi before?
Hiyoshi who is the man in question.
And it was only 2-0, with Kirihara's smash, even if it didn't go for Fuji's head, Fuji was caught completely off-guard so its likely Kirihara was going to step back up in the game anyway. At 2-0 and the circumstances being taken into account, "destroying" is a bit over the top.

Did you ever stop to consider that maybe Kenya didn't assess the situation correctly? Because what Shiraishi and Ryuuzaki say here and here directly contradict him.

I think the term skill level means Technique only.
I doubt skill level covers the overall ability in terms of stamina, speed and power.
Unless you believe Ryuzaki is retarded and watched Shiraishi overpower Fuji to still say that comment.

Will to win comes from the Mental stat I believe. So she's saying it was his Mental stat that was letting him down until now.
Shiraishi is also saying if he had played with the same Mental strength the match would have went differently.
So Fuji got Mentally stronger in that match.

So overall, no. Kenya is still not directly contradicted since it was the Mental Strength boosted Fuji that Shiraishi & Ryuzaki were talking about. The Seigaku team had even said "I've never seen Fuji like this".
It was a boosted player at that stage in the match.
This is proven as he then gained the Mental Strength to upgrade 3 of his moves.

Plus, the Fuji at that stage against Shiraishi was already stronger than Regionals!Fuji anyway.
So this still doesn't help Jirou's situation as a Low tier player.

There's nothing that doesn't show Yuushi and Jirou won't destroy Kai 7-0 too. In fact, I think that's a real possiblity. And really, if Hiyoshi is stronger than Mukahi (which is likely the case, considering his future team captain position and all), i really kinda doubt he'll lose to Kai. I just don't think Jirou is capable of playing Echizen to that point when Echizen was playing kinda even with Fuji. Hiyoshi reason of losing to Echizen is purely his stamina.

Explain how in hell they'd wipe or slaughter Kai. Its two serves each in a tiebreak so it sort of reflects the scoreline of a set.
7-0 is like a 6-0 or 6-1 at best.
Tell me how on earth Yushi or Jirou would slaughter Kai.

You do realize that logic makes no sense. You believe Hiyoshi to be stronger than Mukahi because Hiyoshi is going to be the captain next year?
Mukahi is the same age as Atobe, Yushi & Co. so he simply can't be captain next year. Its nonsensical to compare them in that regard.

I do agree with you on your last point though. Hiyoshi and Ryoma were going even but Hiyoshi lost due to stamina.
However, that same Ryoma beat Akutsu 6-4. So I don't really know if Ryoma was even trying to defend at all in that match, Ryoma played unusually in that match I honestly feel there were different circumstances. He just spammed Twist Serve & Drive B and he tried nothing else in the match.
But you're right there.
Losing to Ryoma 6-4 does give Hiyoshi a better CV than Kai.
But it doesn't stop him from being a Low tier player.
I see the top of the Low tier as Sengoku/Jirou/Hirakoba/Kai/Kikumaru/Kamio/Hiyoshi/Chinen/Tanishi/Amane there could be a few others.

I originally thought Yushi was Mid tier and can argue 10+ ways of why he would beat Jirou but I dunno what to do with him anymore.

And by the way, judging from your response of judging how weak the Inui/Kaidoh pair is here, I hope there won't be any future argument bring up to make Yanagi/Kirihara more awesome. Because if you look at the scoreline with how weak the opponent team is, it seemed to be hardly impressive at all.

Explain what you mean here I honestly don't get it.
Yanagi/Kirihara are a simply better pair than Inui/Kaidoh prior to Gyro Laser.
No need to argue them being "more awesome", they were just a superior pair to begin with. If that's your point?

 

[Hardy]

Sure not completely phased, the issue is, it worked against him. on various occasions.

So did Magic volley. I believe it worked 5 or 6 times. Even More, Fuji was 100 % serious in his match against Jirou (because he crushed Yuuta and Taka got injured) he wasn't like that in his match against Higa. It was Regionals Super Saiyan! Fuji the one that defeated Jirou, lol.

From that reasoning I think Jirou is bottom of the Mid tier if you insist that he is Mid tier. The guy is a talented scrub. A talented scrub like Sengoku who is another Low tier guy.

...You bastard

Losing to Ryoma 6-4 does give Hiyoshi a better CV than Kai.

... why?

It was a Drive B + Twist Serve Ryoma... is it any better than Sealed Step, improved stamina, 1 man doubles, acrobatic play (prolly also Moon Volley) Kikumaru?

I originally thought Yushi was Mid tier and can argue 10+ ways of why he would beat Jirou but I dunno what to do with him anymore.

Konomi doesn't either. He clearly said he has problems drawing Jirou, as he's Hyotei's No.2, but he f@cked up when Fuji destroyed him.

About your Kenya thingy with Kaoz... I dunno man, I always thought that Kenya liked to talk a lot of shit, even if he wasn't that good.

 

[-Ken-]

I do agree with you on your last point though. Hiyoshi and Ryoma were going even but Hiyoshi lost due to stamina.
However, that same Ryoma beat Akutsu 6-4. So I don't really know if Ryoma was even trying to defend at all in that match, Ryoma played unusually in that match I honestly feel there were different circumstances. He just spammed Twist Serve & Drive B and he tried nothing else in the match.
But you're right there.
Losing to Ryoma 6-4 does give Hiyoshi a better CV than Kai.
But it doesn't stop him from being a Low tier player.
I see the top of the Low tier as Sengoku/Jirou/Hirakoba/Kai/Kikumaru/Kamio/Hiyoshi/Chinen/Tanishi/Amane there could be a few others.

Or maybe that's the sign of how strong Hiyoshi is when he's not running out of stamina. It's also mention that Hiyoshi gave Kirihara a pretty good match in Hiyoshi first match with Echizen.

As for Echizen playing unusual, sure. But maybe that's not necessary a bad thing. His teammates were mentioning that he's more pump up than usual due to seeing Tezuka awesome match with Atobe up close AND been getting a lot of energy sitting on the bench until that match.

Then, Fuji mention that that is Echizen best tension yet, which means that Echizen is at least in top form in that match.

I really just saw giving Echizen a good match is 100 times more impressive feat than giving Kikumaru a good match.

I originally thought Yushi was Mid tier and can argue 10+ ways of why he would beat Jirou but I dunno what to do with him anymore.

I agree and can do the same. But as is, probably best to just pump Jirou as mid tier above Oshitari and leave him there.

 

[Kaoz]

Hirakoba was still hitting winners with Habu even afterwards so its not like it was completely stopped.

Except he wasn't. That sixth shot I mentioned was the one Hirakoba returned with Giant Habu. In other words, he didn't win any more points with Habu after that.

You're right with Tanishi and Big Bang against Echizen is different since we have no idea how long Echizen was trolling for.
Doesn't do anything in Jirou's favour though.

I disagree. If Hirakoba can only really score with Habu and he can only really use it as serve, then it's not much different from Tanishi almost exclusively scoring with Big Bang serves.

Nationals!Fuji had 4thCounter for instance to shut down Habu, so the gap between Fuji at Nationals and Regionals is enormous and that shouldn't need to be explained.

Fuji returned Habu without the 4th counter as well.

And meh, how good is BM!Kirihara anyways? I mean, ignoring the crushing he received from Krauser who's a good player, his achievement was owning Prefecturals!Ryoma, beating Tachibana who he injured which takes away from the win, and apparently beating Hiyoshi before?

REM!Akaya beat Ryoma pretty badly before Ryoma got Muga. And Ryoma didn't use Muga against Tanishi (he used Drive C in addition to A and B, and COOL Drive for one point, but in general he wasn't that different compared to the Kirihara match).

Kirihara also only used REM against Inui/Kaidou before Kaidou got Gyro Laser, although he of course had Yanagi's data as support there.

And it was only 2-0, with Kirihara's smash, even if it didn't go for Fuji's head, Fuji was caught completely off-guard so its likely Kirihara was going to step back up in the game anyway. At 2-0 and the circumstances being taken into account, "destroying" is a bit over the top.

It was 3-0, check the scoreboard: http://www.mangareader.net/422-27116-11/prince-of-tennis/chapter-219.html

I think the term skill level means Technique only.
I doubt skill level covers the overall ability in terms of stamina, speed and power.
Unless you believe Ryuzaki is retarded and watched Shiraishi overpower Fuji to still say that comment.

You can lose in power and still be on the same skill level overall as someone else. Fuji won points before evolving his triple counter as well, so you can't really say he was completely hopeless in that sense before getting Kirin Otoshi.

Will to win comes from the Mental stat I believe. So she's saying it was his Mental stat that was letting him down until now.

I believe that's what I said. And in turn this means that he had the skills all along, in other words, even without that extra bit of determination, his control for instance was very good.

Also, like Hardy said, Magic Volley took points against Fuji as well. And unlike Habu, which he figured out after 6 tries, he didn't actually return MV even once, he just avoided it. Furthermore it's implied that Fuji used all three triple counter against Akutagawa as well, which is a skill set that nobody else really has access to.

So while there are probably a fair amount of people that can deal with Habu at some point (maybe not after 6 shots, but certainly at some point during the match), let alone with Shukuchihou, there are probably less people that can shut Jirou down like that.

 

[floman]

So while there are probably a fair amount of people that can deal with Habu at some point (maybe not after 6 shots, but certainly at some point during the match), let alone with Shukuchihou, there are probably less people that can shut Jirou down like that.

Just as a point even though it's not a large part of discussion. Hirakoba would probably shut down Jirou in a match. With the Shukuchihou method, I think he could return the magic volley pretty easily.

The habu wouldn't even have to be a factor. Not doubting that Jirou's good but I think that Oshitari would better handle different types of opponents. SSAS would completely shut down Hirakoba.

 

[Ninomiya]

... why?

It was a Drive B + Twist Serve Ryoma... is it any better than Sealed Step, improved stamina, 1 man doubles, acrobatic play (prolly also Moon Volley) Kikumaru?

When you put it that way, Kikumaru seems better than Prefecturals!Ryoma. But its also the Ryoma that beat Akutsu. Like, its the exact same Akutsu.
Is this saying Nationals!Kikumaru and Nationals!Kai > Prefecturals!Akutsu?
Or rather, Kikumaru and Kai > Prefecturals!Akutsu? Since neither Kikumaru nor Kai were given notable improvement in SPoT.

Konomi doesn't either. He clearly said he has problems drawing Jirou, as he's Hyotei's No.2, but he f@cked up when Fuji destroyed him.

About your Kenya thingy with Kaoz... I dunno man, I always thought that Kenya liked to talk a lot of shit, even if he wasn't that good.

Its one of the very few times I can say Konomi has now f*cked up a little in regards to PoT and not SPoT.
Jirou getting slaughtered was a bit much.
And then having Jirou not even get a look at in the Nationals didn't help either. Not even a panel of Jirou playing tennis was shown after he was wrecked by Fuji.

I wouldn't say Kaoz and I have a "Kenya thing", the evidence is really just all there.
He is probably better than Yushi, he was a regular in his 2ndYear since he faced Mouri at the Nationals Semifinals, so he isn't some nobody since this year was his 2nd Nationals that he helped take his team to.
Fastest MSer without question, faster than Kamio in Mojuu no Aura, good enough to lose 7-3 to Nationals!Shiraishi who is at the top end of the Nationals MS tier.
Honestly, its hard to suggest he's Low tier.
He and Gin split apart and played Kamio and Tetsu almost individually. He owned Regionals!Kamio with weights on.

 

[Kaoz]

I agree with Kenya not being low tier, I don't think he's that much stronger than Yuushi though if at all. The mutual rivalry they seem to have going on shouldn't be that strong if one was clearly superior I think. Yuushi also played a good match against Momoshiro, even though Momoshiro held back his power at first, Yuushi waited until he was behind by 4 games before sealing his heart, so we can't say for sure that it would have ended one way or another if both of them had shown all their skills right away.

Anyway, let's take this to the tier list thread, it's bound to end up there anyway.

 

[Ninomiya]

I believe that's what I said. And in turn this means that he had the skills all along, in other words, even without that extra bit of determination, his control for instance was very good.

I disagree with Ryuzaki simply because at that stage, Fuji went and invented new moves. New freaking moves makes it a completely different Fuji than the Regionals!Fuji that wiped Jirou surely.

Fuji returned Habu without the 4th counter as well.

My point was the enormous gap between Nationals!Fuji and Regionals!Fuji.
Regionals!Fuji needed time to adapt to it. Nationals!Fuji shits on it immediately.
Nationals!Fuji has CE+Cordball, 5thCounter etc. The gap is enormous haha.

 

[Kaoz]

My point was the enormous gap between Nationals!Fuji and Regionals!Fuji.
Regionals!Fuji needed time to adapt to it. Nationals!Fuji shits on it immediately.
Nationals!Fuji has CE+Cordball, 5thCounter etc. The gap is enormous haha.

Well, against Hirakoba, Fuji didn't have those things, no evolved triple counter, no cord balls, no 5th counter, no 6th counter, the only thing he had during that match that he didn't have against Jirou was Kagero Zutsumi, and he didn't need it to return Habu. The gap between the Fuji that played against Jirou and the one that played against Hirakoba was quite negligible.