Character Speculative Tier List

[Hardy]

As long as you keep it civil, go wild here.

Feel free to use doubles players or "Come on, Ryoga is clearly the final boss" or "Medanore scales with Volk" as arguments. As long as it's reasonable, it's fine.

For the moment, I'm sharing the list from the other thread as a base, but please include other players that did not fit the other criteria.

Spoiler: U-17 Singles Revised (In Progress)

Alphabetical order within individual tiers.

S Tier (Top of the World)

Byoudouin
Volk

A+ Tier
Echizen Ryoga
QP
Oni

A Tier (High Pro Level)

Atobe
Amadeus
Bismarck
Fernandez
Rhinehart
Tanegashima
Tezuka
Tokugawa
Watanabe
Zeus

B Tier (TnK Rally)

Akutsu
Chardard
Delon
Dorgias
Echizen Ryoma
Fuji
Irie
Sanada
Shiraishi
Siegfried
Toyama
Yukimura

C Tier
Hakamada
Krauser
Momoshiro
Nakagauchi
Oshitari Y.
Sengoku
Yamato

Spoiler: Prefecturals - Tokyo - Kanto - Nationals

Prefectural Tournament
(Chapters 1 - 40)

High

Echizen Ryoma

Mid

Ibu Shinji
Inui Sadaharu
Kaidoh Kaoru
Kamio Akira

Low

Arai Masashi
Sasabe


Tokyo Tournament
(Chapters 41 - 109)

High

Akutsu Jin
Echizen Ryoma
Fuji Shuuske

Mid

Momoshiro Takeshi
Sengoku Kiyosumi

Low

Fuji Yuuta
Mizuki Hajime


Kanto Tournament
(Chapters 110 - 236)

High

Echizen Ryoma
Sanada Gen'ichirou

Upper Mid

Atobe Keigo
Fuji Shuusuke
Inui Sadaharu
Kirihara Akaya
Tezuka Kunimitsu
Yanagi Renji

Lower Mid

Akutagawa Jiro
Aoi Kentarou
Hiyoshi Wakashi
Kamio Akira
Kaidoh Kaoru
Kiraku Yasuyuki
Sengoku Kiyosumi

Low

Kawamura Takashi


National Tournament
(Chapters 237-379)

S Tier

Echizen Ryoma

A Tier

Yukimura Seiichi

B Tier

Fuji Shuusuke
Sanada Gen'ichirou
Tezuka Kunimitsu
Tooyama Kintarou

C Tier

Atobe Keigo
Chitose Senri
Kirihara Akaya
Kite Eishirou
Niou Masaharu
Shiraishi Kuranosuke
Tachibana Kippei

D Tier

Ishida Gin
Liliadent Krauser
Momoshiro Takeshi
Oshitari Yuushi

E Tier

Chinen Hiroshi
Kai Yuujirou
Kikumaru Eiji
Tanishi Kei

F Tier

Aoi Kentarou
Kawamura Takashi
Saeki Kojirou

---‐---

Spoiler: First post

Gonna throw something for the very top of the list to start the discussion:

Newcomers are bolded
^Raised compared to the other list
>Lowered compared to the other list

S Tier (Top of the World)

Byoudouin
Medanore
Echizen Ryoga^
Volk J.

A+ Tier
QP
Oni
Tokugawa^

A Tier (High Pro Level)

Atobe
Amadeus
Camus
Fernandez (here just because of next month)
Rhinehart
Tanegashima
Tezuka
Volk B.
Watanabe

A- Tier (Pro Level)
Balentien
Bismarck>
Echizen Ryoma^
Fuji^
Kirihara
Hopkins
Obando
Ranbiell
Tatsuta
Yukimura^
Zeus>

...or something like that.

 

[chikkychappy]

Why can't Shiraishi's upgrades be sustainable? There's no real drawback about it other than the fact that Shiraishi can only have a single 7 at the time (tho he can switch quickly).

Because if we take that all-7 player at face value his stat will literally be 35 which puts him above pre-Volk Byodoin (34.5) and walking around the corpses of the likes of Omagari and Tanegashima. And yet everyone still puts him below Ryoma, Sanada, Yuki, Atobe, Kintarou and even the recent Fuji. Point is he doesn't have full access to that all-7 stat, in the same way that Atobe doesn't have full access to the future Atobe.

Why, though? Irie never even dared to play someone in the G-10. His best feat is destroying Date and post-injury Kaji which doesn't tell us much because we don't know how strong that is. In singles there's a pretty clear gap between the top of the G-10 and the rest, too.

Meanwhile Duke was trusted to play France's ace and revealed he had a Ki Jin after that.

Honestly I'm basing it off hype, it's true we haven't really seen Irie being pushed. I'll concede maybe I overhyped Irie a little, I remember Kaji's base stats being pretty high and was pretty impressed that Irie walked all over him. Right now I would peg him down a notch and consider him sandwiched between G5 and the rest of G6-10 sans Ochi (whose real strength remains to be seen, maybe they'll be in the same tier) just based on plot importance. But anyway with the upgrades I can see the MSers starting to barge into G10 but they ain't G5 yet.

 

[Hardy]

I won't quote anyone specifically, just want to say how surprised I am at some of the lists here.

Konomi already established the superiority of HS-ers through Yukimura's and Sanada's comments. I mean it wasn't long ago when most people thought Yukimura can beat Duke cos he destroyed Fuwa, but Konomi has recently rid us of that illusion.

Also tiers do not move that quickly in PoT except when it comes to Ryoma and maybe to some extent Tezuka. Case in point: Back then Momo beat G20 while Chitose/Tachibana struggled against Court 3, but in the end Chitose and Tachibana made it to the first cut whereas Momo was not even second choice (Renji, Oshitari and Sengoku were chosen over him). And then after all of Atobe's upgrades, Oshitari still took three games from him during the intra as if we're still in Kantou. This again shows that for every on-screen upgrade, the rest of the pack are working to keep up so overall Konomi is not leaving them in the dust and tier changes doesn't become that dramatic.

Idk why Kintarou's being ranked over Yukimura at this point. He beat Dorgias easily in the group stages, but around this time Yukimura was also explicitly referred to as the #1 among JP MSers. I mean that's the whole point of Tezuka vs Yukimura, Japan was sending out their biggest best MS baddie against their former colleague who's currently taking the MS world by storm. And no, I don't think Ryoma is above Yukimura at this point (although he will be). Tezuka vs Yukimura was a fight between the two best Japanese MSers point blank.

Tanegashima... now people are writing him off after that questionable intra with questionable results (Tane-Shiraishi playing almost evenly against fuckass Kite/Marui, Fuji-Ryoma's nonsensical match...). All I know is that Byoudoin is a cut above the rest. Toku/Oni/Duke/Tane/Irie they're all pretty close to each other; Ochi is also about to stake him claim in this tier. Trying to avoid recency effect because it really depends on who Konomi wants to hype up or whose part of the story we're in, and honestly sometimes Konomi just be writing anything. Although by end of Spain match I expect Toku to distinguish himself from the rest of the pack simply because he's been built-up as the HSer main character from the beginning.

There haven't been many movements, I think?

The Momo situation could just be match up related: his BJK countered Bakyuun but it wouldn't "counter" Synchro in any way. Washio and Suzuki are no scrubs (but were unfortunately matched against a better version of themselves in the Mutsus), and yet WoK almost beat them. IIRC it was stated somewhere that they ran out of gas at the end (I just don't know where... but I do remember it made Kaoz make Synchro cost Stamina in the Fan League), which is explained by Chitose not being adapted to the Beast Aura (he's even the one that misses in the last point).

The Yuushi situation is borderline unexplainable and was off screened. The only way for it to make sense is that Atobe was struggling with his confidence and Yuushi put him back in his place (only to be undone a couple of chapters later against Irie but let's forget that). Maybe Closed Heart counters Insight? Idk, but Sengoku joined the team at the same time as him and got smashed 6-1 by Base Ryoma (and we all saw that one game as a massive W).

It was probably long ago. In the matchup thread Yukimura lost to Irie, and then Ryoma lost to Duke but is beating Irie. So the average person rates Duke >> Yukimura here.

I wait for a consensus to change the tier list. Kin and Yukimura are listed in the same tier in the first post. In the other thread I actually placed Yukimura above Kin.

Because if we take that all-7 player seriously his stat will literally be 35 and he will literally be above pre-Volk Byodoin (34.5) and walking around the corpses of the likes of Omagari and Tanegashima. And yet everyone still puts him below Ryoma, Sanada, Yuki, Atobe, Kintarou and even the recent Fuji. Point is he doesn't have full access to that all-7 stat, in the same way that Atobe doesn't have full access to the future Atobe.

Honestly I'm basing it off hype. I'll concede maybe I overhyped Irie a little, I remember Kaji's base stats being pretty high and was pretty impressed that Irie walked all over him. Right now I would consider him sandwiched between G5 and the rest of G6-10 sans Ochi (whose real strength remains to be seen, maybe they'll be in the same tier). With the upgrades I can see the MSers starting to barge into G10 but they ain't G5 yet.

But he is not an all 7 player. Assuming he improved in this last month, he's something like a 4.5/4.5/4.5/4.5/7 player, still worse than Ohmagari. At best you can give him two 7s since he switches them quickly. But that means that's his peak, whereas all other players have special abilities that allow them to go way beyond their stats + in the case of HSers, way more experience (which is not quantifiable in stats but has been a big factor in NPoT).

I have them tiered exactly like that, I think? and the results in the match up thread sort of show that, too.

 

[chikkychappy]

There haven't been many movements, I think?

The Momo situation could just be match up related: his BJK countered Bakyuun but it wouldn't "counter" Synchro in any way. Washio and Suzuki are no scrubs (but were unfortunately matched against a better version of themselves in the Mutsus), and yet WoK almost beat them. IIRC it was stated somewhere that they ran out of gas at the end (I just don't know where... but I do remember it made Kaoz make Synchro cost Stamina in the Fan League), which is explained by Chitose not being adapted to the Beast Aura (he's even the one that misses in the last point).

The Yuushi situation is borderline unexplainable and was off screened. The only way for it to make sense is that Atobe was struggling with his confidence and Yuushi put him back in his place (only to be undone a couple of chapters later against Irie but let's forget that). Maybe Closed Heart counters Insight? Idk, but Sengoku joined the team at the same time as him and got smashed 6-1 by Base Ryoma (and we all saw that one game as a massive W).

Overall it just shows that tiering don't change dramatically. Sengoku getting consistently picked in the present and in the future (Kaidoh Momo nowhere to be found) gives us a glimpse on where Konomi places him in the tiering. Same with Yuushi, I would have written them off to join the ranks of Jirou and the rest if not for Konomi's endorsement. As a writer it's easier to put people in tiers and then base the match flow and result around that, and not the other way around, especially not with PoT when a lot of the matches aren't even strategic or that technical, they're more "thematic" more than anything. That's why it's always important to refer to Konomi's implicit tiering and narratives, and value these over a one-off "feat" that is inconsistent with many things.

It was probably long enough. In the matchup thread Yukimura lost to Irie, and then Ryoma lost to Duke but is beating Irie. So the average person rates Duke >> Yukimura here.

I mean, I agree. Even if Irie is below Duke/Tane/Oni, there's still enough wiggle room to put Irie above Yukimura.

But he is not an all 7 player. Assuming he improved in this last month, he's something like a 4.5/4.5/4.5/4.5/7 player, still worse than Ohmagari. At best you can give him two 7s since he switches them quickly. But that means that's his peak, whereas all other players have special abilities that allow them to go way beyond their stats + in the case of HSers, way more experience (which is not quantifiable in stats but has been a big factor in NPoT).

Well that's fair, Shiraishi can use any dimension at 7 at a time, that's why he was called "all 7" so it's probably somewhere in between.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

It's fun to speculate.

And it is actually nice to see that someone (chinky) is joining Adamska to defend the Genius 5. Hehe. Since Msers are getting all attention now cause its their time to shine.

But anyways, I still think Msers can Be as strong as The Genius 5. At least the Best Msers. (Like Ryoma)

But maybe we are looking past Genius 6-10 too?

Who is the strongest among Genius 6-10?

Isn't it Ochi? I think it is Ochi.

So, Do we think Atobe, Ryoma, Yukimura, Fuji can convincingly beat Ochi now? Hmmm

Hard to decide. Cause Ochi will have new powerup this Finals too. Or maybe not a powerup but a hidden arsenal.

 

[Hardy]

Overall it just shows that tiering don't change dramatically.

It depends. For the MSer vs MSer comparisons, sure. The top now vs the top in PoT is pretty much the same except for the fact that Atobe and Akutsu got boosted (Kirihara and by proxy Hiyoshi too, for that matter).

For MSer vs HSer though, the former are clearly catching up and rising the ranks rapidly. Konomi introduced some sort of soft power levels in stats and the MSers have improved leaps and bounds in them.

Tezuka in Day 6 of the camp (the camp itself started in November):

Total: 19
Speed: 3
Power: 3.5
Stamina: 3
Mental: 4.5
Technique: 5

Tezuka in 10.5 (Day 19, having trained with Volk for 2 weeks-ish, still November):

Total: 23.5 (+4.5)
Speed: 4.5
Power: 4
Stamina: 4
Mental: 5
Technique: 6

And now we are in late December. Worst case scenario approximately 4 weeks have passed.

Why would Tezuka be boosted 4.5 points in 2 weeks and "stop" there? No reason. Now apply that logic for every other MSer.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 25, 2023 ---

It's fun to speculate.

And it is actually nice to see that someone (chinky) is joining Adamska to defend the Genius 5. Hehe. Since Msers are getting all attention now cause its their time to shine.

But anyways, I still think Msers can Be as strong as The Genius 5. At least the Best Msers. (Like Ryoma)

But maybe we are looking past Genius 6-10 too?

Who is the strongest among Genius 6-10?

Isn't it Ochi? I think it is Ochi.

So, Do we think Atobe, Ryoma, Yukimura, Fuji can convincingly beat Ochi now? Hmmm

Hard to decide. Cause Ochi will have new powerup this Finals too. Or maybe not a powerup but a hidden arsenal.

Problem with Ochi is that he can only keep hitting Machs because in doubles you have your service game every 4 games. If it was singles his shoulder may fall off or something.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

It depends. For the MSer vs MSer comparisons, sure. The top now vs the top in PoT is pretty much the same except for the fact that Atobe and Akutsu got boosted (Kirihara and by proxy Hiyoshi too, for that matter).

For MSer vs HSer though, the former are clearly catching up and rising the ranks rapidly. Konomi introduced some sort of soft power levels in stats and the MSers have improved leaps and bounds in them.



Why would Tezuka be boosted 4.5 points in 2 weeks and "stop" there? No reason. Now apply that logic for every other MSer.



Yet it was never stated that he was on a stat limiter or any sort of thing like that for that match, other than the fact that he hadn't unleashed Ki Jin. Every time a limit was used we got informed about it, why wouldn't it be the case now? In the exact same round it was revealed that Byoudouin hadn't used even 50% of his abilities against Tokugawa, wouldn't Konomi do the same to hype Oni?

That non-TnK Oni that scored against TnK Kin was Ki Jin Oni (unless you believe he stopped using that aura just to flex on Kintarou). The moment QP saw the Demon he shat his pants.

Why does it matter if it was a hundred chapters ago? Oni didn't even play between that match and his against QP. Or are you saying the gap between him and Kintarou grew bigger, somehow, despite us seeing that the MSers have faster growth rates?



Kintarou went from not standing a chance and not even removing Yukimura's jacket to being able to beat him (clearly mirroring Atobe vs Sanada). Is there any other way to interpret that?

Kintarou and Ryoma weren't in the main camp when Yukimura was selected, the second strongest player around was either Atobe (who ironically got selected as number 1) or Akutsu, and we aren't talking about them.

Do you really believe players like Akutsu and Kintarou wouldn't face Volk?

I concede about the description in 178, though, I clearly didn't remember it.

I'm unsure as to what I'm supposed to do with that description. Niou is a "sexy entertainer", what does that tell us about how good he is?

Not sure what we are really arguing here, either, since I told you that in the other thread Yukimura is above Kin and in this one they are in the same tier.



When did the data become useless? Yukimura managed to steal Tezuka's future because he was able to defend consistently and build patterns, and data would only strengthen this. Data would only make ZST stronger, too, for that matter.

Atobe's advice pushed Yukimura to achieve Mirage Mirror, so no it didn't just stop working.

Melodramatic Fuji is the only one that says they "may not have a chance fighting together". That doesn't mean their efforts stopped helping right there.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 25, 2023 ---

Problem with Ochi is that he can only keep hitting Machs because in doubles you have your service game every 4 games. If it was singles his shoulder may fall off or something.

As a former #4. I expect and hope Ochi have some other arsenal than just being a Mach Spammer.

Anyways, he seemed to have a good base tennis cause he defeated that Greece Rep who uses some kind of Aura.

Anyways, Mach is super effective. How many times did we saw it returned? Let alone the Improved Mach Serve?

Even Byodoin and Oni have trouble returning it.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Absolutely. Irie is Oni/Duke/Tane level who are like three levels above Yukimura who is a level below Tezuka who is the best MSer in the tournament (Ryoga aside).

So No Japan Team Mser right now is even close to being Genius 5?

You think they are just banging on the door of Genius 8-10 range?

I mean Top Japan Team Msers like Ryoma, Atobe, Yukimura are not even in Mouri/Tohno Level?? (For you?)

I think I will agree that Genius 5 might be still slightly stronger than Top Msers right now.

But imo, Ryoma, Yukimura, and Atobe already surpassed Mouri, Tohno, and Kimijama.

 

[LetalHawk]

So No Japan Team Mser right now is even close to being Genius 5?

You think they are just banging on the door of Genius 8-10 range?

I mean Top Japan Team Msers like Ryoma, Atobe, Yukimura are not even in Mouri/Tohno Level?? (For you?)

I think I will agree that Genius 5 might be still slightly stronger than Top Msers right now.

But imo, Ryoma, Yukimura, and Atobe already surpassed Mouri, Tohno, and Kimijama.

Ryoma and Atobe for me are G5 level definitely alongside Kintarou. There’s no way they’re just mid G6 level when Atobe had a recent powerup who makes him as strong as he’ll be in three years, and by that time he’ll be much more strong than most of the G5.

We can’t overhype the G5 or consider them that high because Konomi is giving crazy powerups to the Msers for a reason. Yukimura didn’t say clearly that Duke is way above him but it did imply that he wants to reach alongside Sanada Toku’s and Duke’s level in the future (well, he did say the level to be fighting for the S1 spot of the Japanese team). He indeed is below those two but he for me is above the likes of Tohno, Kimijima or Ochi. He is scratching the G5 treshold at least but far from the top of it. Honestly, the top Msers would destroy or solidly beat No.6 to 10 at this point.

He didn’t even reach the same focus level of his match vs Tezuka and of course didn’t perform at his best vs Ohmagari in doubles. True that the latter has much more doubles experience and is stronger in doubles, but a top form Yuki in singles would beat Ohmagari convincingly in Singles (and even the likes of Tezuka would solidly beat him). Also, we didn’t even saw a single rally between Ohmagari and Yuki in that match, just with Yanagi.

Ryoga destroyed the formed No.4 and would probably do the same with anybody in the G5 except Byodouin or Tokugawa maybe, if Ryoma beats and surpasses him that already puts him in that level after the finals.

I really hope Konomi would give us a rematch including all of the G5 in some singles matches vs the Msers again, so we could finally see if we were right..

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Ryoma and Atobe for me are G5 level definitely alongside Kintarou. There’s no way they’re just mid G6 level when Atobe had a recent powerup who makes him as strong as he’ll be in three years, and by that time he’ll be much more strong than most of the G5.

We can’t overhype the G5 or consider them that high because Konomi is giving crazy powerups to the Msers for a reason. Yukimura didn’t say clearly that Duke is way above him but it did imply that he wants to reach alongside Sanada Toku’s and Duke’s level in the future (well, he did say the level to be fighting for the S1 spot of the Japanese team). He indeed is below those two but he for me is above the likes Toho, Kimijima or Ochi. He is scratching the G5 treshold at least but far from the top of it.

He didn’t even reach the same focus level of his match vs Tezuka and of course didn’t perform at his best vs Ohmagari in doubles. True that the latter has much more doubles experience and is stronger in doubles, but a top form Yuki in singles would beat Ohmagari convincingly in Singles (and even the likes of Tezuka would solidly beat him). Also, we didn’t even saw a single rally between Ohmagari and Yuki in that match, just with Yanagi.

Ryoga destroyed the formed No.4 and would probably do the same with anybody in the G5 except Byodouin or Tokugawa maybe, if Ryoma beats and surpasses him that already puts him in that level after the finals.

I really hope Konomi would give us a rematch including all of the G5 in some singles matches vs the Msers again, so we could finally see if we were right..

I mean its @chikky who I am asking.

Because he dont even think Atobe/Yuki/Ryoma are in G10 level.

I am in between.

I think 1 v 1 Tanegashima Beat Atobe, and Duke Beat Yukimura still. But i think top Msers of Japan beat Irie now. So

Its like

Japan Team

Tier 1: Byo, Toku

Tier 2: Oni, Tane, Duke

Tier 3: Irie and all top msers of japan team (Ryoma, Atobe, Yuki)

 

[chikkychappy]

My ranking:
Byo
Tokugawa
Duke/Tane/Oni
Evolved Ochi/Irie
-Evolved Ochi: Based on hype. I won't put him higher because his peak is #4 whereas Duke/Tane/Oni reached top 3.
-Irie: I put him above the other four based on story importance. It's true we haven't seen him pushed.
Omagari:
-I set him apart from the other three because he is higher ranked and I think we'll see more of him against Spain.
Tohno/Kimijima/Mouri

I would put top MSers in Tohno/Kimijima/Mouri level, at the very best Omagari level. I'm looking at the D2 of Omagari/Kin vs Yuki/Renji, but have slightly different reading. Omagari schooled Yuki/Renji here 2 vs 1 here. Sure Yuki's forte is singles and he was also tired, but Yuki/Renji pair is by no means a slouch. They've most likely paired up many times before plus Renji is a doubles player who can effectively use his partner and Omagari had the 2 vs 1 disadvantage. We most likely didn't see Omagari at 100% during the match, he has more under his sleeves.

I also thought before that top MSers are knocking on G5 doors, but since Konomi painstakingly asserted the HSers superiority in the intra I pegged the MSers down multiple notches. It's just way too early for them. Even the current D2 against Spain is drawn across HS/MS lines.

I think we're entering the final arc of the manga. Except for Ryoma beating Ryoga, we most likely won't see see any MSer proving their mettle against G5. The manga will end with a hopeful note of MSers' futures. They're not surpassing HSers yet but in three years the future G20 will be much stronger than the G20 are now (golden age and all).

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Guys, actually I have a theory

All this G5 Vs Top Msers debate/discussion

is rooting from

Yukimura's statement of

"He is not in the level of Tokugawa and Duke"

(Can someone remind or quote me the exact or direct statement by Yukimura). But it is something like that

And we are all consensus here that Duke is the weakest G5 member (We almost all agree Byo, Toku, Tane, Oni beats Duke 1 v1 iirc)

So basically Yukimura admitted he is weaker than the weakest G5 member.

Duke beats Ryoma too in our Matchup thread.

So, Duke (the weakest G5 Member) actually beats Ryoma and Yukimura.

So, only one question now is Atobe with Infinite Evolution. Do we think Atobe can go toe to toe with Duke? I think so. (So atobe is the most sure bottom g5 tier level mser for me in Japan right now)

Having said all of that

I STILL think Atobe, Ryoma, and Yuki are in that Tanegashima Tier.

Even if I think Tanegashima beats all of them 1 V 1 in 3 set match. (As of now)

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 26, 2023 ---

My ranking:
Byo
Tokugawa
Duke/Tane/Oni
Evolved Ochi/Irie
-Evolved Ochi: Based on hype. I won't put him higher because his peak is #4 whereas Duke/Tane/Oni reached top 3.
-Irie: I put him above the other four based on story importance. It's true we haven't seen him pushed.
Omagari:
-I set him apart from the other three because he is higher ranked and I think we'll see more of him against Spain.
Tohno/Kimijima/Mouri

I would put top MSers in Tohno/Kimijima/Mouri level, at the very best Omagari level. I'm looking at the D2 of Omagari/Kin vs Yuki/Renji, but have slightly different reading. Omagari schooled Yuki/Renji here 2 vs 1 here. Sure Yuki's forte is singles and he was also tired, but Yuki/Renji pair is by no means a slouch. They've most likely paired up many times before plus Renji is a doubles player who can effectively use his partner and Omagari had the 2 vs 1 disadvantage. We most likely didn't see Omagari at 100% during the match, he has more under his sleeves.

I also thought before that top MSers are knocking on G5 doors, but since Konomi painstakingly asserted the HSers superiority in the intra I pegged the MSers down multiple notches. It's just way too early for them. Even the current D2 against Spain is drawn across HS/MS lines.

I think we're entering the final arc of the manga. Except for Ryoma beating Ryoga, we most likely won't see see any MSer proving their mettle against G5. The manga will end with a hopeful note of MSers' futures. They're not surpassing HSers yet but in three years the future G20 will be much stronger than the G20 are now (golden age and all).

We can do it one by one

Can any of Atobe/ Current Ryoma/Yukimura/Kintarou/Fuj

beat:

1. Byodoin ? - Msers have no chance imo. Lol. Byo is in Volk League.

2. Tokugawa ? - Msers have no chance. Toku is being implied to be in Medanore league. And his Ashura + Black hole + Freezing balls are too OP

3. Oni ? - I don't think Msers can deal with TNk + Kijin combo that dominated QP without ultimate aura.

4. Tanegashima - Hmmm. According to Hardy, Invisible Tanegashima is now stronger than Bismarck. And I think top japan Msers is as good if not worse than Bismarck. So Tanegashima wins too


5. Duke - ngl. I think Atobe and Ryoma can pull off an upset against Duke cause of superior Versatility and tactics. ( Duke still better but he is beatable)

So, yeah Japan Top Msers has a chance to beat Duke.

But they have no chance against Byo and Toku.

Tane and Oni, do you guys think Ryoma, Atobe, Yukimura, Fuji, Kintarou have a chance against them in a serious 1 v 1 3 set match?

**conclusion: Yeah I think Japan top Msers (Like Atobe) are in that bottom/barely G5 tier. Like Duke/Irie**

 

[chikkychappy]

This is the japanese text.

すごい。。。目に焼き付けるぞ幸村
あれたちが将来目指す。日本代表トップのシングルス１争いをね。

Using google translate, it's something like:
Sanada: Amazing. Burn it into your eyes Yukimura.
Yukimura: Aaa... This is what I aim for in the future, to be the number 1 singles representative of Japan.

And I think top japan Msers is as good if not worse than Bismarck.

Based on what? So you think top MSers are ready to go pro too?

 

[Hardy]

My ranking:
Byo
Tokugawa
Duke/Tane/Oni
Evolved Ochi/Irie
-Evolved Ochi: Based on hype. I won't put him higher because his peak is #4 whereas Duke/Tane/Oni reached top 3.
-Irie: I put him above the other four based on story importance. It's true we haven't seen him pushed.
Omagari:
-I set him apart from the other three because he is higher ranked and I think we'll see more of him against Spain.
Tohno/Kimijima/Mouri

I would put top MSers in Tohno/Kimijima/Mouri level, at the very best Omagari level. I'm looking at the D2 of Omagari/Kin vs Yuki/Renji, but have slightly different reading. Omagari schooled Yuki/Renji here 2 vs 1 here. Sure Yuki's forte is singles and he was also tired, but Yuki/Renji pair is by no means a slouch. They've most likely paired up many times before plus Renji is a doubles player who can effectively use his partner and Omagari had the 2 vs 1 disadvantage. We most likely didn't see Omagari at 100% during the match, he has more under his sleeves.

I also thought before that top MSers are knocking on G5 doors, but since Konomi painstakingly asserted the HSers superiority in the intra I pegged the MSers down multiple notches. It's just way too early for them. Even the current D2 against Spain is drawn across HS/MS lines.

I think we're entering the final arc of the manga. Except for Ryoma beating Ryoga, we most likely won't see see any MSer proving their mettle against G5. The manga will end with a hopeful note of MSers' futures. They're not surpassing HSers yet but in three years the future G20 will be much stronger than the G20 are now (golden age and all).



Except Yukimura is also an MSer who also received a massive boost, was consistently called the #1 MSer, and yet still called considered Duke to be way above him.

I'd rank them around the same, with the caveat that most of the top MSers are likely around Irie (and that Ryoma will inevitably jump tiers). The only exceptions I'd argue are Romeo and Atobe (the latter for a single set), who can likely go head to head with someone like Duke. Current Tezuka might be able to avoid fighting head on thanks to his Specials, too.

Not too sure we can use doubles feats for singles all that well. As you said, Yukimura was a bit nerfed and Yanagi (who heavily relies on data based on fanbooks) could not get any data on Ohmagari. Add that to Ohmagari having much more experience and able to adjust better to the higher pace of doubles using 2 rackets... On the other hand he just got "buffed" in the latest chapters, so who knows how strong he is, really.

I wouldn't use the current D2 as an example either since the HSers were the ones to throw the first punches, which may mean the MSers are the ones that overcome these and grow stronger. Or not.

Left another thread open to discuss Yukimura.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Duke is the baseline of Genius 5.

So if A Mser want to be a G5 level player. He must be as good or actually able to convincingly beat Duke 1 v 1.

So, the question is who among the Japan Team Msers can beat Duke 1 v 1 in 3 sets? (Currently)

That's the question.

 

[LetalHawk]

Duke is the baseline of Genius 5.

So if A Mser want to be a G5 level player. He must be as good or actually able to convincingly beat Duke 1 v 1.

So, the question is who among the Japan Team Msers can beat Duke 1 v 1 in 3 sets? (Currently)

That's the question.

I’d say Ryoma and Kintarou have a fair chance of beating Duke. Tezuka and Atobe too, the latter with his most recent upgrade can probably go toe to toe with pros. I even consider 120% hormone Romeo to be above Duke and Tane so yeah.

Akutsu is also one of my bets if he manages in the future to master 8C. He managed to take a game off Amadeus and the latter increased his gear as the match went on, if Akutsu didn’t collapse who knows what would have happened, Peter said the flow of the match was completely in Akutsu’s favor after winning that one game, also Amadeus>>Duke is crystal clear.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

I’d say Ryoma and Kintarou have a fair chance of beating Duke. Tezuka and Atobe too, the latter with his most recent upgrade can probably go toe to toe with pros. I even consider 120% hormone Romeo to be above Duke and Tane so yeah.

Akutsu is also one of my bets if he manages in the future to master 8C. He managed to take a game off Amadeus and the latter increased his gear as the match went on, if Akutsu didn’t collapse who knows what would have happened, Peter said the flow of the match was completely in Akutsu’s favor after winning that one game, also Amadeus>>Duke is crystal clear.

I agree. I think Duke is the most vulnerable G5 to be upset by Top Japan Msers.

So, lets up it a bit?

Can they beat Tanegashima
and Oni?

(Cause they have absolutely no chance against Byo and toku)

 

[chikkychappy]

Why is Kintarou G5 level? He played evenly with Dorgias, a top player from a #18 ranked country who didn't have any special aura on (even Atobe caught up to him quickly before any of his upgrades). On the other hand Tane and Oni played toe-to-toe with #2 and #3 of the #1 ranked team, one achieved LoP and another achieved howling with his doubles partner. Duke isn't far behind them (if at all).

Kintarou returned Tane's Infinite Void but that's because of his super senses (which has been alluded to, particularly his abnormal sense of sight) and not because of a massive jump in base stats. This took Tane by surprise and therefore he scored the matchpoint. But during that match it was Omagari who returned Mu and Void Before Birth, Kintarou didn't even try touching them. I also reckon this "super sense" is what makes him immune to Seda's hypnosis.

Anyway so Shiraishi can rally with TnK now? This baselines him at Dorgias level, but I would peg him down a notch cos he has "data" on Kintarou.

 

[-Ken-]

Based on what? So you think top MSers are ready to go pro too?

There is 100% no doubt on this. Tezuka was even almost handed a pro contract BEFORE WC even started.

Not too sure we can use doubles feats for singles all that well. As you said, Yukimura was a bit nerfed and Yanagi (who heavily relies on data based on fanbooks) could not get any data on Ohmagari. Add that to Ohmagari having much more experience and able to adjust better to the higher pace of doubles using 2 rackets... On the other hand he just got "buffed" in the latest chapters, so who knows how strong he is, really.

But Yukimura and Yanagi actualy have a "double buff" since their chemistry was praised in the series chapter itself. This kind of praise is actually very rare (Golden pair gotten it. Kite and Marui gotten it. I can't recall much other pairs with the praise on the chemistry.) Ohmagari pair got a negative buff due to Kintarou being bad with doubles at that point.

Why is Kintarou G5 level? He played evenly with Dorgias, a top player from a #18 ranked country who didn't have any special aura on (even Atobe caught up to him quickly before any of his upgrades).

I mean it's a top player from a country that managed to beat Switzerland whom are world #2 at that point in the story and even 3-0 Japan as well. And not to mention he go 1-1 with PoP Oni at that point. That is a feat that even QP isn't capable of. QP actually goes from 3-3 to 3-6 and even lost 0-3 to PoP Oni. That's just a fact. In fact, there's no proof at all that QP is capable of getting even a SINGLE POINT against PoP Oni up until that 3-0. It's all simply him getting aced. That means no matter how much you lowball Kintarou he at least get better feat than QP before he obtain his Ultimate God Aura whatever the name is.

That pre-aura QP is considered at least #3 in Germany team by majority of the people here.

Kintarou returned Tane's Infinite Void but that's because of his super senses (which has been alluded to, particularly his abnormal sense of sight) and not because of a massive jump in base stats. This took Tane by surprise and therefore he scored the matchpoint. But during that match it was Omagari who returned Mu and Void Before Birth, Kintarou didn't even try touching them. I also reckon this "super sense" is what makes him immune to Seda's hypnosis.

And that feat isn't something that Bismarck is even capable of doing first time Tanegashima use it but Kintarou can do it. Seems straight forward to me. Kintarou was in doubles and he was struggling a fair bit even against Yanagi and Yukimura. Sure, he's getting more used to doubles in his match with Tanegashima but he's still struggling even against Shiraishi. We simply did not know if Kintarou that didn't return Mu and Void before birth isn't really capable of answering the move if it's been used against him in Singles.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 27, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 27, 2023 ---

Ok, I reread the chapters. QP is getting straight ace all the way up from 3-3 to 3-6 and to 3-0. He really isn't shown of getting even a single point. He's been shown to get 40-0 and game even at 3-5 mark. And there's nothing that suggest an improvement prior to the aura either.


Kintarou, on the other hand, must have 100% score a minimum of 2 points at the lowest level of lowballing since the score is 30-15 when Oni manage to get PoP. And that's assuming that Kintarou directly manage to beat THAT POP Oni 2 times in a row that even a player of pre-aura QP level cannot score a single point which I would assume is unlikely. And he managed to get those minimum of 2 points within 1 game of facing PoP Oni which isn't something pre-Aura QP is capable of in 6 entire games.

That along with Kintarou being able to answer Tanegashima Ultimate Void first time it's been used make it seems fairly straight forward and consistent to me. In my opinion, I think that prior to that point Kintarou wasn't really capable of playing doubles as good as he can do it in Singles yet. Maybe he can't do that even now. We might found out more later in this current D2 match if there's such statement or not.

 

[Hardy]

There is 100% no doubt on this. Tezuka was even almost handed a pro contract BEFORE WC even started.

This doesn't tell us much since Volk himself said Tezuka wasn't ready. By 10.5 he had a single stat on a Pro level (6), Technique.

Keep in mind Amadeus dominated post France WC Byoudouin (who was already strong enough to face France's ace), and yet he only became a Pro this year before the WC. Also remember that Bismarck likely could had gone Pro before the WC too, but he had no reason to do so since he wanted to have a career as a racer. Edit: this is incorrect. Went back and checked and he always meant to go Pro as a tennis player, but Volk used the WC to help him focus and get the racer dream out of his head.

Finally, Tezuka sits around the very top of the MSer world so using him as a reference doesn't particularly help those below him much.

But Yukimura and Yanagi actualy have a "double buff" since their chemistry was praised in the series chapter itself. This kind of praise is actually very rare (Golden pair gotten it. Kite and Marui gotten it. I can't recall much other pairs with the praise on the chemistry.) Ohmagari pair got a negative buff due to Kintarou being bad with doubles at that point.

This is true, but it doesn't make the feat any easier to measure. It was also mentioned that it was Ohmagari's experience in doubles what allowed him to win, which Yanagi and Yukimura lacked (their strategy was too simplistic).

I mean it's a top player from a country that managed to beat Switzerland whom are world #2 at that point in the story and even 3-0 Japan as well. And not to mention he go 1-1 with PoP Oni at that point. That is a feat that even QP isn't capable of. QP actually goes from 3-3 to 3-6 and even lost 0-3 to PoP Oni. That's just a fact. In fact, there's no proof at all that QP is capable of getting even a SINGLE POINT against PoP Oni up until that 3-0. It's all simply him getting aced. That means no matter how much you lowball Kintarou he at least get better feat than QP before he obtain his Ultimate God Aura whatever the name is.

That pre-aura QP is considered at least #3 in Germany team by majority of the people here.

On the other hand, Atobe points out that the skill level in Australia is much lower than the Swiss and that they only won thanks to Noah's massive help + it was also noted that the crowd was boosting them.

NGoepe was highlighted as South Africa's captain (ranked 15th, higher than Australia) and he was losing to Tezuka even before the latter used TnK.

We are discusing in the other thread if Oni was at 60% when he played Kin, which would make the feat much weaker.

And that feat isn't something that Bismarck is even capable of doing first time Tanegashima use it but Kintarou can do it. Seems straight forward to me. Kintarou was in doubles and he was struggling a fair bit even against Yanagi and Yukimura. Sure, he's getting more used to doubles in his match with Tanegashima but he's still struggling even against Shiraishi. We simply did not know if Kintarou that didn't return Mu and Void before birth isn't really capable of answering the move if it's been used against him in Singles.

That along with Kintarou being able to answer Tanegashima Ultimate Void first time it's been used make it seems fairly straight forward and consistent to me. In my opinion, I think that prior to that point Kintarou wasn't really capable of playing doubles as good as he can do it in Singles yet. Maybe he can't do that even now. We might found out more later in this current D2 match if there's such statement or not.

We've beat this dead horse a million times by now, but I still want to point out that Kin had no answer to any of the other moves Tanegashima brought up and that he wasn't affected by Ultimate Void at all. Counting that as a feat to put him leveled with Bismarck is akin to saying Yuushi is as good as Atobe just because he can use Closed Heart to bypass Mental Assassin (whereas Atobe had to struggle out of it) or that him and Fuji in the Nationals were as good as Yukimura because Saiki has no effect on them.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Hahahaha. We went from Yukimura to Kintarou

But anyways, this is the tier list.

Tezuka is no doubt G5 level imo. He is noted as top Mser (sans Ryoga who no one even knows he is Mser before he revealed it. Lmao).

I know Bismarck beats Tezuka because the former is literally a direct counter to Tezuka who rely heavily in Ball spins. And Bismarck Spinless Sway literally nullifies zone, phantom, and maybe even Ultimate Zone

But I think Tezuka is same tier as Bismarck ngl.

Thinking about it guys

Duke beats Ryoma in our Matchup thread but majority of what I saw here said Tezuka will beat Duke.

Therefore, there is a significant gap between Tezuka and Current Ryoma.