Character Speculative Tier List

[Hardy]

As long as you keep it civil, go wild here.

Feel free to use doubles players or "Come on, Ryoga is clearly the final boss" or "Medanore scales with Volk" as arguments. As long as it's reasonable, it's fine.

For the moment, I'm sharing the list from the other thread as a base, but please include other players that did not fit the other criteria.

Spoiler: U-17 Singles Revised (In Progress)

Alphabetical order within individual tiers.

S Tier (Top of the World)

Byoudouin
Volk

A+ Tier
Echizen Ryoga
QP
Oni

A Tier (High Pro Level)

Atobe
Amadeus
Bismarck
Fernandez
Rhinehart
Tanegashima
Tezuka
Tokugawa
Watanabe
Zeus

B Tier (TnK Rally)

Akutsu
Chardard
Delon
Dorgias
Echizen Ryoma
Fuji
Irie
Sanada
Shiraishi
Siegfried
Toyama
Yukimura

C Tier
Hakamada
Krauser
Momoshiro
Nakagauchi
Oshitari Y.
Sengoku
Yamato

Spoiler: Prefecturals - Tokyo - Kanto - Nationals

Prefectural Tournament
(Chapters 1 - 40)

High

Echizen Ryoma

Mid

Ibu Shinji
Inui Sadaharu
Kaidoh Kaoru
Kamio Akira

Low

Arai Masashi
Sasabe


Tokyo Tournament
(Chapters 41 - 109)

High

Akutsu Jin
Echizen Ryoma
Fuji Shuuske

Mid

Momoshiro Takeshi
Sengoku Kiyosumi

Low

Fuji Yuuta
Mizuki Hajime


Kanto Tournament
(Chapters 110 - 236)

High

Echizen Ryoma
Sanada Gen'ichirou

Upper Mid

Atobe Keigo
Fuji Shuusuke
Inui Sadaharu
Kirihara Akaya
Tezuka Kunimitsu
Yanagi Renji

Lower Mid

Akutagawa Jiro
Aoi Kentarou
Hiyoshi Wakashi
Kamio Akira
Kaidoh Kaoru
Kiraku Yasuyuki
Sengoku Kiyosumi

Low

Kawamura Takashi


National Tournament
(Chapters 237-379)

S Tier

Echizen Ryoma

A Tier

Yukimura Seiichi

B Tier

Fuji Shuusuke
Sanada Gen'ichirou
Tezuka Kunimitsu
Tooyama Kintarou

C Tier

Atobe Keigo
Chitose Senri
Kirihara Akaya
Kite Eishirou
Niou Masaharu
Shiraishi Kuranosuke
Tachibana Kippei

D Tier

Ishida Gin
Liliadent Krauser
Momoshiro Takeshi
Oshitari Yuushi

E Tier

Chinen Hiroshi
Kai Yuujirou
Kikumaru Eiji
Tanishi Kei

F Tier

Aoi Kentarou
Kawamura Takashi
Saeki Kojirou

---‐---

Spoiler: First post

Gonna throw something for the very top of the list to start the discussion:

Newcomers are bolded
^Raised compared to the other list
>Lowered compared to the other list

S Tier (Top of the World)

Byoudouin
Medanore
Echizen Ryoga^
Volk J.

A+ Tier
QP
Oni
Tokugawa^

A Tier (High Pro Level)

Atobe
Amadeus
Camus
Fernandez (here just because of next month)
Rhinehart
Tanegashima
Tezuka
Volk B.
Watanabe

A- Tier (Pro Level)
Balentien
Bismarck>
Echizen Ryoma^
Fuji^
Kirihara
Hopkins
Obando
Ranbiell
Tatsuta
Yukimura^
Zeus>

...or something like that.

 

[-Ken-]

We are discusing in the other thread if Oni was at 60% when he played Kin, which would make the feat much weaker.



We've beat this dead horse a million times by now, but I still want to point out that Kin had no answer to any of the other moves Tanegashima brought up and that he wasn't affected by Ultimate Void at all. Counting that as a feat to put him leveled with Bismarck is akin to saying Yuushi is as good as Atobe just because he can use Closed Heart to bypass Mental Assassin (whereas Atobe had to struggle out of it) or that him and Fuji in the Nationals were as good as Yukimura because Saiki has no effect on them.

But that's an If. There is actually no statement on Oni holding back. Byoudonin even state Oni that defeat him 2 years ago have return. But I'm already used to this forum dissing Kintarou feat. Even when he do what QP cannot do for 6 games in 1 games a minimum of 2 times he's still not view as strong as QP by many.

Forever it was just "He just keep his service game. It's nothing impressive"

And now that QP show how impressive that feat is it's turn to "But Oni might be holding back. It's nothing impressive"

Shin Tennis no Ouji-sama - Chapter 96 : A Demon...once More! - Share Any Manga on MangaPark

Shin Tennis no Ouji-sama, 新テニスの王子様, New Prince of Tennis, Jump SQ., Takeshi Konomi, 許斐 剛, action, shounen, sports. Fifty middle school tennis players are invited into the U-17 training camp, which was previously available only to high school tennis players. These middle schoolers must now...

mangapark.net

That Oni is mention to be stronger than any U-17 representative at least 2 years ago. That means he was undisputed #1 at one point. And then there's TnK on top of this Oni. Japan 2 years ago isn't weak country either. I recall that they go 2-2 with France even without Oni who sealed away his power and trained the team.

Yeah it's a dead horse, and I have to point out that Kintarou also have problems with Yanagi and Shiraishi and Yukimura much less someone of Tanegashima level. We do not know at all if Kintarou manage to "recover" 100% to his singles level at any point of the match.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2023 ---

Ok. Actually, in chapter 96. Tokugawa state it is the first time he saw Oni true power. True power =/= holding back. It's not 60% of true power. It's true power. I wonder if someone gonna say it's a true power of holding back or true power of 60% now lol.

 

[Hardy]

There isn't an statement saying that he wasn't holding back, either, while we know that pretty much everyone else minus maybe Mouri heavily held back.

How can Tokugawa know what full power Oni even looks like if he never even saw it?

In chapter 119 Byoudouin is said to be struggling for his life, and Oni is mad because Byoudouin is now stronger... and yet he was using a 60 % limiter. Neither the coaches, nor Oni nor Tokugawa noticed he was holding back. Same logic applies to Onk vs Kin.

 

[-Ken-]

It's at least 1 more statement than 0 that Oni is still holding back during the match. And Byoudonin statement also adds to it as well.

Like I say, people will always be looking down on Kintarou in this forum lmao.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2023 ---

I reread chapter 119. And if you seen that wall Byoudonin try to kill Ryoma with you would realize struggling for their lives is an extremely legit statement if Byoudonin can pull off that kind of shots with 60% limiters on. It does means their lives in on the line with those shots. And the line about Byoudonin being stronger than before even at 60% is possible via improvement. The majority of MS right now is probably the same. Neither statement is quite the same as he's going full power though.

Kintarou, however, do notice that Oni against QP is holding back prior to the TnK, which do at least means Oni choose to play at the higher level against Kintarou than he choose to play against QP prior to the TnK release. Otherwise, there is no way Kintarou would have known Oni is holding back still. And it is to be noted that lower level of play that Oni used against QP is already enough to lead 6-5 against QP.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2023 ---

Wait... now with that in mind. Doesn't that means that Oni that was going easier on QP was already capable of getting 6-5 score rather evenly with him and Kintarou manage to do better than that against Oni that at least somewhat try harder? So wouldn't Kintarou scale higher than pre-aura QP no matter what regardless of how "easy" Oni try against Kintarou because Kintarou know of the higher level of play that Oni have used against him before? And that Kintarou is capable of at least going 1-1 with that higher level of play?

 

[chikkychappy]

Kintarou said Oni was holding back and then right at the next moment Oni pulled out TnK. I think it's obvious what Kintarou meant by that lol.

Btw I was just looking at the raws of the D2 intra. Shiraishi described Omagari as "Japan's top class in stamina and defense" but he didn't use "Japan's top class" for Kintarou. Google translates it as "full attacking power" which I think means that he has a very aggressive playstyle. This matches up for Yukimura's and Yanagi's observation that Kintarou is the type to chase all balls down.

 

[-Ken-]

Kintarou said Oni was holding back and then right at the next moment Oni pulled out TnK. I think it's obvious what Kintarou meant by that lol.

Btw I was just looking at the raws of the D2 intra. Shiraishi described Omagari as "Japan's top class in stamina and defense" but he didn't use "Japan's top class" for Kintarou. Google translates it as "full attacking power" which I think means that he has a very aggressive playstyle. This matches up for Yukimura's and Yanagi's observation that Kintarou is the type to chase all balls down.

Yeah, I mean it’s rather obvious Oni isn’t going all out with QP at that point. But the fact that Kintarou know Oni that is facing QP isn’t as good as he can be shows that the version that is facing Kintarou must have been stronger.

moreover, while there is some statement like Oni is going full power in his match with Kintarou, there is also no statement that Oni is stronger than he was in his match with Kintarou prior to POP release. In fact, there is a statement that Oni didn’t use his full power in his match against QP instead. But I don’t see any that Oni didn’t use his full power against Kintarou at all.


Even the best assumption would have been that 60% TnK Oni is stronger than Pre-TnK ez going Oni against QP at this point. But that would be extremely weird for power level. It also wouldn't change Kintarou level. Unless it is of course assume Kintarou just magically somehow know Oni isn't going all out just because you want Kintarou to just not be high tier.

It's also to be noted that Tokugawa not seeing "full power" Oni before also include those undecided matches Oni have against Tanegashima. Now it's possible that Tokugawa simply never see Oni play against Tanegashima. But that alongside that version of Oni being above anything Tokugawa ever seen of Oni, and that previously Oni was seemingly the #1 JP rep, and that version of Oni that Kintarou face was stated by Byoudonin to be the same one that defeated him 2 years ago, is just bunch of stuff that suggest whether Oni was 60% or not that version of Oni that play against Kintarou was extremely strong even without TnK on top. His strength is at least a minimum of former #1 of JP representative (aka 2 years ago version) which I would find it hard to believe it's not at least G5 level especially once you add TnK to it.

And of course that "oh he just keep his service game" feats that was extremely look down upon for ages even when QP can't even fucking get a single point much less a game in 6 entire games and was still praise to the heavens to the points many still believe that he was Germany #2 for his entire existence both before and even after the statement that Bismarck was #2 was given.

 

[chikkychappy]

Yeah, I mean it’s rather obvious Oni isn’t going all out with QP at that point. But the fact that Kintarou know Oni that is facing QP isn’t as good as he can be shows that the version that is facing Kintarou must have been stronger.

Yes because Oni didn't bring out TnK at that point. The "strong Oni" that Kintarou is referring to is TnK Oni.

As soon as KIntarou said that Oni's not going all out, Oni brought out TnK as if on cue. And then you never hear Kintarou rag on Oni again. Why? Cos Oni already brought out his full power with TnK.

 

[-Ken-]

Yes because Oni didn't bring out TnK at that point. The "strong Oni" that Kintarou is referring to is TnK Oni.

As soon as KIntarou said that Oni's not going all out, Oni brought out TnK as if on cue. And then you never hear Kintarou rag on Oni again. Why? Cos Oni already brought out his full power with TnK.

Yeah? And what's your point really? Kintarou manage to get a game off that strong TnK Oni that QP fail to get even a single point out of even with 6 entire games. Why are we looking down on Kintarou again?

Actually Kintarou getting 2 points at minimum make it a lot more impressive. That's like 4*6=26. QP is 0/26. Kintarou is like 2/6 at the mimimum and that's assuming that Oni get ace for the other two points entirely and fail to get a point from Kintarou the entire game and that Oni manage to beat Kintarou 4 times in a row which doesn't seem like the case imo. And regardless, 2/0 is still more than infinite more points lol.

 

[chikkychappy]

Yeah? And what's your point really? Kintarou manage to get a game off that strong TnK Oni that QP fail to get even a single point out of even with 6 entire games. Why are we looking down on Kintarou again?

Actually Kintarou getting 2 points at minimum make it a lot more impressive. That's like 4*6=26. QP is 0/26. Kintarou is like 2/6 at the mimimum and that's assuming that Oni get ace for the other two points entirely and fail to get a point from Kintarou the entire game and that Oni manage to beat Kintarou 4 times in a row which doesn't seem like the case imo. And regardless, 2/0 is still more than infinite more points lol.

Because even without TnK Oni scored against Kintarou. Even without TnK those watching said, "Even TnK stands no chance against that?!" This was the first time we ever saw someone beat TnK without any aura just by pure base stat difference so it is a significant moment. And then Oni brought out TnK too and of course it was all over. If non-Tnk Oni can score against TnK Kintarou, what more TnK Oni? We all saw how big of a difference it made against QP. Those two off-screen points while Oni was "having fun" with his protégé means absolutely nothing in this bigger narrative.

Non-aura QP>>Non-TnK Oni>TnK Kintarou

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Yeah, I mean it’s rather obvious Oni isn’t going all out with QP at that point. But the fact that Kintarou know Oni that is facing QP isn’t as good as he can be shows that the version that is facing Kintarou must have been stronger.

moreover, while there is some statement like Oni is going full power in his match with Kintarou, there is also no statement that Oni is stronger than he was in his match with Kintarou prior to POP release. In fact, there is a statement that Oni didn’t use his full power in his match against QP instead. But I don’t see any that Oni didn’t use his full power against Kintarou at all.


Even the best assumption would have been that 60% TnK Oni is stronger than Pre-TnK ez going Oni against QP at this point. But that would be extremely weird for power level. It also wouldn't change Kintarou level. Unless it is of course assume Kintarou just magically somehow know Oni isn't going all out just because you want Kintarou to just not be high tier.

It's also to be noted that Tokugawa not seeing "full power" Oni before also include those undecided matches Oni have against Tanegashima. Now it's possible that Tokugawa simply never see Oni play against Tanegashima. But that alongside that version of Oni being above anything Tokugawa ever seen of Oni, and that previously Oni was seemingly the #1 JP rep, and that version of Oni that Kintarou face was stated by Byoudonin to be the same one that defeated him 2 years ago, is just bunch of stuff that suggest whether Oni was 60% or not that version of Oni that play against Kintarou was extremely strong even without TnK on top. His strength is at least a minimum of former #1 of JP representative (aka 2 years ago version) which I would find it hard to believe it's not at least G5 level especially once you add TnK to it.

And of course that "oh he just keep his service game" feats that was extremely look down upon for ages even when QP can't even fucking get a single point much less a game in 6 entire games and was still praise to the heavens to the points many still believe that he was Germany #2 for his entire existence both before and even after the statement that Bismarck was #2 was given.

Bismarck is definitely #2 over QP before the latter achieved Ultimate Aura. Bismarck is given a pro contract while QP was not offered pre tournament. (So, maybe Pre Aura QP = UZ Tezuka?)

Ultimate Aura QP though is in the level just a notch below Byodoin, Volk, Ryoga tier imo. So ofc, he became #2 after that.

Ultimate Aura QP literally serviced aced Oni over and over again. And won like 6 straight games in the 3rd set.

 

[-Ken-]

Because even without TnK Oni scored against Kintarou. Even without TnK those watching said, "Even TnK stands no chance against that?!" This was the first time we ever saw someone beat TnK without any aura just by pure base stat difference so it is a significant moment. And then Oni brought out TnK too and of course it was all over. If non-Tnk Oni can score against TnK Kintarou, what more TnK Oni? We all saw how big of a difference it made against QP. Those two off-screen points while Oni was "having fun" with his protégé means absolutely nothing in this bigger narrative.

Non-aura QP>>Non-TnK Oni>TnK Kintarou

But TnK Kintarou score 2 points against non-TnK Oni and even manage to score a minimum of 2 points against TnK Oni. Pre-aura QP score an impressive 0 points against TnK Oni in SIX GAMES COMBINED.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2023 ---

Bismarck is definitely #2 over QP before the latter achieved Ultimate Aura. Bismarck is given a pro contract while QP was not offered pre tournament. (So, maybe Pre Aura QP = UZ Tezuka?)

Ultimate Aura QP though is in the level just a notch below Byodoin, Volk, Ryoga tier imo. So ofc, he became #2 after that.

Ultimate Aura QP literally serviced aced Oni over and over again. And won like 6 straight games in the 3rd set.

I'm not arguing anything toward Ultimate Aura QP or trying to put it down at all. I'm putting how impressive Kintarou is for managing to do what Pre-Aura QP failed to do in 6 entire games a minimum of 2 times and possibly more. And that Pre-Aura QP isn't that weak either.

 

[chikkychappy]

So Dorgias = Non-aura QP? Am I missing anything?

 

[-Ken-]

Yes because this manga is the bastion of consistency and free from any error or misdirection.

Essentially you're saying that Non-Aura QP = Dorgias, Atobe before upgrades > Tezuka. Yet Shiraishi already said that Kintarou is no match to Ryoma, who should still be below Tezuka, who is below QP. These are very contradictory, one has to give, and to me it's clear that it's those two offscreen points from two hundred chapters ago.

Dorgias is the ace player of a country that do beat Switzerland. Atobe also never really gotten an actual entire game off Dorgias like ever. Your opinion doesn't mean much. And Shiraishi opinion matter more than points actually scored... because? Oh. I know why. Because you really want want to dunk on Kintarou.

Something do gotta give, and it's you ignoring manga actual evidence indeed. I rather ignore that than ignore an official manga evidence. Think what you want on Kintarou. It won't change what he scored in the past and the fact that he manage to do what Bismarck fail to do despite being bad at doubles.

Isn't it funny that you view Atobe as equal to Dorgias but for Kintarou you just go "Oh oh oh he can do better bismarck because blah blah blah blah blah"?

Get back to me when manga support your views man lol.

For every Kintarou's feat, there's a reason why it doesn't count. It's truly impressive how your logic goes. So impressive to the point I don't think... Oh well, I'll stop here. It doesn't matter anymore.

 

[chikkychappy]

Isn't it funny that you view Atobe as equal to Dorgias but for Kintarou you just go "Oh oh oh he can do better bismarck because blah blah blah blah blah"?

What do you mean? I view Kintarou as slightly better than Dorgias during their match and should have improved even further by now (and his biggest upgrade is yet to come).

Something do gotta give, and it's you ignoring manga actual evidence indeed.

Uhm... you're literally ignoring the entire manga for two offscreen points.

So Dorgias = Non-aura QP?

 

[-Ken-]

What do you mean? I view Kintarou as slightly better than Dorgias during their match and should have improved even further by now (and his biggest upgrade is yet to come).


Uhm... you're literally ignoring the entire manga for two offscreen points.

So Dorgias = Non-aura QP?

It's possible. We got Zeus who is like... better than Tanegashima to the point it'll seem like he would have stomp Bismarck who's rather even with Tanegashima. And we know that Bismarck is actually better than Pre-Aura QP. Why is that out of questions?

Instead of ignoring points or putting logic on where you believe a player should be based on YOUR OPINION, it's better for you to try to convince me with actual manga evidence like Kintarou somehow didn't score those points or there's a statement that Oni is stronger in his match against QP than his match against Kintarou or Oni go full retarded and hit his head allowing Kintarou to score 2 points or QP actually score points but those points are during Umpire taking a shit so the points doesn't count. Show me something from the manga. Manga or databook evidence can only be match by manga or databook evidence. Your opinion or my opinion or anyone opinion except Konomi are all irrelevant.

 

[Hardy]

It's at least 1 more statement than 0 that Oni is still holding back during the match. And Byoudonin statement also adds to it as well.

Like I say, people will always be looking down on Kintarou in this forum lmao.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2023 ---

I reread chapter 119. And if you seen that wall Byoudonin try to kill Ryoma with you would realize struggling for their lives is an extremely legit statement if Byoudonin can pull off that kind of shots with 60% limiters on. It does means their lives in on the line with those shots. And the line about Byoudonin being stronger than before even at 60% is possible via improvement. The majority of MS right now is probably the same. Neither statement is quite the same as he's going full power though.

But it's a statement coming from someone that doesn't know any better. The whole chapter is about the Ki Jin making a return, too, not his stats.

How can you struggle if you aren't even trying?

It could be true, but Oni should know that if Byoudouin damn wanted he could had just removed his limiters and Tokugawa would be dead, regardless of him activating his Pirate or not. It makes no sense for him to react like that.

Kintarou, however, do notice that Oni against QP is holding back prior to the TnK, which do at least means Oni choose to play at the higher level against Kintarou than he choose to play against QP prior to the TnK release. Otherwise, there is no way Kintarou would have known Oni is holding back still. And it is to be noted that lower level of play that Oni used against QP is already enough to lead 6-5 against QP.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2023 ---

Wait... now with that in mind. Doesn't that means that Oni that was going easier on QP was already capable of getting 6-5 score rather evenly with him and Kintarou manage to do better than that against Oni that at least somewhat try harder? So wouldn't Kintarou scale higher than pre-aura QP no matter what regardless of how "easy" Oni try against Kintarou because Kintarou know of the higher level of play that Oni have used against him before? And that Kintarou is capable of at least going 1-1 with that higher level of play?

Yeah I pointed that Kin bit in the Yukimura thread. That said, the background imagery in that flashback isn't in the U-17 camp, so Kintarou isn't talking about the match they had. Rather, they likely have been training together ever since they left Japan.

My train of thought here is that Oni didn't use his Ki Jin purposely against QP to highlight his own flaws and be able to activate the stronger aura: TnK (his has a different activation other than just having fun). Against Kin he was on a limiter, instead.

 

[-Ken-]

But it's a statement coming from someone that doesn't know any better. The whole chapter is about the Ki Jin making a return, too, not his stats.

How can you struggle if you aren't even trying?

It could be true, but Oni should know that if Byoudouin damn wanted he could had just removed his limiters and Tokugawa would be dead, regardless of him activating his Pirate or not. It makes no sense for him to react like that.

But there is no other statements at all regarding him limiting his stats or anything at all that suggest Oni was any weaker in his match against Kintarou than his match with QP. At least there is SOME kind of statement that suggest it's Oni's full power. That is worth to me more than 0 statement.

And it also means that Oni that practice with Tokugawa that can at least compete on some level with #1 at that points isn't him at full power ever. And that THIS particular Oni is playing against Kintarou at a higher level than he was practicing against Tokugawa whom is playing against #1 position (Otherwise Tokugawa would know it alread). I just cannot imagine the level to be low.

It's the full word that matter. Struggle for your lives. If that Tokugawa shot hit Byoudonin. He CAN actually be dead or heavily injured. It doesn't really imply going easy for me. And whether Byoudonin is going easy or not isn't related to Oni holding back. And in the end, Byoudonin releasing his move is the same as Oni releasing Kijin aura in his own match as well.

 

[chikkychappy]

All I know is that Konomi would laugh if you said Dorgias = Non-Aura QP.

 

[-Ken-]

And I know Konomi would laugh if you say Kintarou didn't score against TnK Oni. That's just failing tennis rules lol.

Get back to me with relevant manga evidence. The rest doesn't matter period.

 

[mathematicianrcg]

Lol. Konomi is laughing right now because we love to discuss and argue about his masterpiece in this forum passionately.

Anyways, to release some tension.

I wonder if we can see some players with 8 or 9 in any of the base stats.

If TNK + Kijin is 10 in power stats. What is UA QP? Maybe 12 in power stats. Lol.

 

[LetalHawk]

Lol. Konomi is laughing right now because we love to discuss and argue about his masterpiece in this forum passionately.

Anyways, to release some tension.

I wonder if we can see some players with 8 or 9 in any of the base stats.

If TNK + Kijin is 10 in power stats. What is UA QP? Maybe 12 in power stats. Lol.

QP destroyed Oni’s wrist, so his power is beyond 10. Ultimate Quality probably boosts it to 12 or 13.