Chapter Tower of God Chapter 616 Spoilers & Discussion

[Shiinhye1]

sorry for the delay, I hope you enjoy the chapter.

https://comick.io/comic/02-tower-of-god/8xehGPrd-chapter-616-en

 

[Big-Bird]

I don't even know why there's a disccusion
Dumas has better feats, better hype, and better statements.
even white's spell that AA used is uncertain in nature, the only similar spell that white showed us possessing can't be cast at range and he needs to pierce with his sword.
So to deactivate his armour, White would need to rush Dumas and thrust his sword into Dumas.
Even against Kallavan he didn't try to do that.

Everyone can see exactly that Baam use the Twin Wing on his arm. Reverberate through his body does not matter as it did not injure his body except the previously wounded arm, even Jinsung's Dragon Tiger Gate did far more than that.

Twin Wing wounded Kallavan when he did not protect himself with EoB. Twin Wing hit Dumas head on without leaving injury. So lets ignore the previous wound left by Stardust on Kallavan's arm and say Dumas's real body is stronger than Kallavan's pre-power up body, but so what? Getting unharmed by Twin Wing doesn't mean Dumas is not susceptible to White's attack.

What we know is that Kallavan's pre-power up body is also susceptible to White's attack hence he keep protecting himself with EoB. But that is not enough information to determine whether Dumas's real body is immune or suspectible to White's attack.

B can wound K. W can wound K. B cannot wound D. Does that mean W cannot wound D? Not necessarily.

It would have been different had we saw Baam hit Dumas with Stardust considering that Stardust is his only attack that pierce EoB. If Dumas unscatched by Stardust, it means he is not susceptible to most of the attack White used on Kallavan (did not include his last sword or the attack he used to force Kallavan to sacrifice his arm).

when there is a correlation SIU tells us
Baam and Kallavan at the station
Jinsung's arms
Kallavan's arm against white
he didn't tell us anything about twin wing and stardust
so there is no correlation, simple as that
stating the opposite is based on absolutely nothing and moreover contradicts the nature of the series which explicitly tells us when this kind of shit happens.

You are the one who claim Dumas real body is stronger that his armor. So you brought this topic yourself. It is not fair to ask whether White can survive Dumas trying to kill him without asking the reverse. Both are good at attacking from distance. So we have 2 questions without confirmed answer hence if we say Dumas will definitely beat White or vice versa, that will merely be based on assumptions.

Dumas could kill Jinsung on the spot with those spears, then when he turned on Rosario he shot everyone.
It was White who showed nothing of that level.
The man with the best feats and the best statements of the 2 is not White.

and yes, Dumas' real body is tougher than his armour.

You are the one who claim Dumas will just ram into White and turn him into porcupine, so you are the one questoning his durability.

There is no indication that White have a high durability for his tier, Jinsung and Kallavan are the only ones declared as such.
And Dumas pokes holes in Jinsung

That is precisely why your argument about Dumas's real body cannot be confirmed. It's not mere simple Shinwonryu, it's transcendent skill developed from Shinwonryu. We have seen White withstand Dark Orb-powered Shinwonryu-Stardust-Meteor Shower which is Baam's ultimate attack. But we had not seen Dumas's real body got hit by any Shinwonryu attack. We only know from Dumas's own statement that Baam's improvised Dragon Tiger Gate threaten him (hence he didn't let it hit him).

As for Kukuda, we cannot confirm whether he was wounded by that simple Shinwonryu or not as the part that got hit (lower abdomen) was not shown afterwards.

and I said it was unknown
I said Dumas can ignore attacks that would beat a BH in one shot and an attack powerful enough to be noted and completed by Kallavan.

that's what I'm saying


Baam hit him when he was in an intangible state, but it didn't kill him, nor did it knock him out.
so it doesn't really matter what state Kukuda was , he tanked the thing only this matter

The one stronger not necessarily win, even when not messing around, momentum is also a factor. If they made slight mistake, the result could be the reverse. See Jinsung vs Kallavan, had Jinsung apply finishing blow, Kallavan would have died but Jinsung let his guard down instead as he thought Kallavan already die, it allow Kallavan to catch and destroy his arms, if Kallavan did not destroy his arms, Jinsung can still win.

you keep saying that
but show me one example in this series
where a weaker character has beaten a guy stronger than him, and that victory isn't about an advantageous match-up, is a pure 1v1 and no hax/special weapons are used.

Jinsung/kallavan is not an example, Jinsung and Kallavan are confirmed to be of the same level, Kallavan just has an advantageous match-up against Jinsung, Jinsung will easily beat people that Kallavan struggles against and vice versa.
Even after Kall destroyed his arms, the outcome was uncertain.

Stronger is confirmed but much stronger is mere assumption. The fact remains that Baam did not make any wound on White, Rak did.

White's named techniques were obliterated by Baam's unnamed moves.
all White could do was defend himself, and he couldn't have done that indefinitely, his shield constantly weakened by the black rain, and White admit that his will be probably shatter after a next attack
Baam is much stronger than White, that's not a assumption
when you crush your opponent's techniques purely thanks to your power, you're not just stronger than him, you're much stronger.

Elbaba? Dumas could beat him with the toe at his left. Purdidiy, Perseus, and WGW would easily beat Div Co, middle BH might be a bit higher than Div Co but not by much, Elbaba is on the lower end though, Cheonhee (who could survive Karaka) would beat him.

this is false
Cha could easily destroy the attacks of 3 div co
Cha has one shot Kendrick with his Taerim
Aria fled rather than face Cha considering that facing her would only result in her death
Cha took Fucile's head off with one punch
Cha against a div co results in the death of the div co by a one shot

Cha faced Elbaba and his wolf
Elbaba's grey wolf took a storm of punches and was fine
he took a Taerim and was perfectly fine too

Cheonhee beat nothing
Cheonhee gets torn apart by Elbaba's wolf, she doesn't hit hard enough to hurt the wolf in any way, neither her nor any Div co.
by sheer feats Elbaba kills them all

BH are far above div co
just Doom with one arm is far above them by statement

 

[Yelnats]

when there is a correlation SIU tells us
Baam and Kallavan at the station
Jinsung's arms
Kallavan's arm against white
he didn't tell us anything about twin wing and stardust
so there is no correlation, simple as that
stating the opposite is based on absolutely nothing and moreover contradicts the nature of the series which explicitly tells us when this kind of shit happens.

SIU actually left a lot of things without explicit statements such as the things you claimed as unnamed skill Baam used against White (more on that later).

Besides, as I have said earlier, it is irrelevant to Dumas vs White discussion.

Dumas could kill Jinsung on the spot with those spears, then when he turned on Rosario he shot everyone.
It was White who showed nothing of that level.
The man with the best feats and the best statements of the 2 is not White.

and yes, Dumas' real body is tougher than his armour.

Yet White is the one who have faces strongest version of Baam up till now. Dumas fight multiple person at once is true, but Jinsung already heavily injured, Baam was not ready, Yama was not in full transformation, and Karaka is non-factor.

There is no indication that White have a high durability for his tier, Jinsung and Kallavan are the only ones declared as such.
And Dumas pokes holes in Jinsung

Withstanding Dark-Orb powered Shinwonryu-Stardust-Meteor Shower is indicating durability.

you keep saying that
but show me one example in this series
where a weaker character has beaten a guy stronger than him, and that victory isn't about an advantageous match-up, is a pure 1v1 and no hax/special weapons are used.

No special weapons? So no Dumas/Karaka armor? No Tiara's pen? No Kallavan's EoB? No Lobadon's Gran Abuelo? No Traum's shinheuh entrusted to BH? No BT/RT/Levi/Thorn? No BM?

You know spell can be considered as hax, aren't you? In fact deactivating Dumas armor with spell itself is a hax.

Is Wangnan vs Tebo & Lebo considered as 1 vs 1? Wangnan is not stronger, he might have some survival blessing but that did not prevent him from countless defeats (it only ensure he survive in defeat).

Jinsung/kallavan is not an example, Jinsung and Kallavan are confirmed to be of the same level, Kallavan just has an advantageous match-up against Jinsung, Jinsung will easily beat people that Kallavan struggles against and vice versa.
Even after Kall destroyed his arms, the outcome was uncertain.

Kallavan think he has advantageous matchup but Jinsung deny it when he stated to Kallavan that he is technician, unlike Ha family newer generations.

White's named techniques were obliterated by Baam's unnamed moves.
all White could do was defend himself, and he couldn't have done that indefinitely, his shield constantly weakened by the black rain, and White admit that his will be probably shatter after a next attack
Baam is much stronger than White, that's not a assumption
when you crush your opponent's techniques purely thanks to your power, you're not just stronger than him, you're much stronger.

I wouldn't say "much stronger" as he did not put any wound on White. He is strong enough to cancel any White's attack but not that much as he cannot wound him.

Anyway, that unnamed technique is named technique which properties changed by Dark Orb

this is false
Cha could easily destroy the attacks of 3 div co
Cha has one shot Kendrick with his Taerim
Aria fled rather than face Cha considering that facing her would only result in her death
Cha took Fucile's head off with one punch
Cha against a div co results in the death of the div co by a one shot

Cha faced Elbaba and his wolf
Elbaba's grey wolf took a storm of punches and was fine
he took a Taerim and was perfectly fine too

Cheonhee beat nothing
Cheonhee gets torn apart by Elbaba's wolf, she doesn't hit hard enough to hurt the wolf in any way, neither her nor any Div co.
by sheer feats Elbaba kills them all

BH are far above div co
just Doom with one arm is far above them by statement

You did not even counter my statement about Cheonhee. Cheonhee is one of the strongest Div Co, you cannot just generalize Div Co to have equal strength. Don't forget Cheonhee did not lose when she was surrounded by Hansung and multiple servants of Karaka.

Aria fleeing is irrelevant, their leg met so is not OHKO. Fuchile got OHKOed because of surprise attack. Kendrick is a light bearer, it's normal for light bearer/anima to get OHKO from stronger fisherman. Didn't Cha have to get through multiple beastkins controlled by Kendrick? So why don't you count the hits on those beastkins if you count the hits on Traum's wolf? I guess Elbaba would also be defeated if he receive a single direct punch from Cha, just like that former BH lady with green hair who is supposedly stronger than Goruro, what was her name? Lo Po Bia Perper?

From these statements, I wonder whether your definition of power is limited to attack and defense.

Cheonhee > Hansung > Haratcha

 

[Big-Bird]

SIU actually left a lot of things without explicit statements such as the things you claimed as unnamed skill Baam used against White (more on that later).

the only technique used by Baam is the black meteor shower
the rest is either not shown or Baam sweeps the attack with his hands

so, you're the one making things up, it's not said anywhere, it's implied nowhere, and the star dust wound and the twin wing wound aren't even in the same place

Yet White is the one who have faces strongest version of Baam up till now. Dumas fight multiple person at once is true, but Jinsung already heavily injured, Baam was not ready, Yama was not in full transformation, and Karaka is non-factor.

Baam walked all over him throughout their confrontation
this version of Yama was stronger than 1 fang Yama ( and we never see FT anyways), confirmed by Yas

Withstanding Dark-Orb powered Shinwonryu-Stardust-Meteor Shower is indicating durability.

yeah, White has durability, but never at any point his durability was praised, unlike Jinsung and Kallavan

No special weapons? So no Dumas/Karaka armor? No Tiara's pen? No Kallavan's EoB? No Lobadon's Gran Abuelo? No Traum's shinheuh entrusted to BH? No BT/RT/Levi/Thorn? No BM?

You know spell can be considered as hax, aren't you? In fact deactivating Dumas armor with spell itself is a hax.

Is Wangnan vs Tebo & Lebo considered as 1 vs 1? Wangnan is not stronger, he might have some survival blessing but that did not prevent him from countless defeats (it only ensure he survive in defeat).

yeah, exactly, although when I said "special weapons" I was thinking more of things like ancient spears and Lefav bullets
yeah, I know
I said that wins in TOG are mainly due to either the opponent being stronger, an advantageous match up or because he has a hax that leads him to victory.

no
AA find the weakness of Tebo and Lebo and said it to Wangnam
Wangnam received help, this cannot be considered as 1v1

Kallavan think he has advantageous mathup but Jinsung deny it when he stated to Kallavan that he is technician, unlike Ha family newer generations.

SIU said it
Jinsung has problems against Kallavan's durability, Kallavan was right, he is a bad matchup against Jinsung.

I wouldn't say "much stronger" as he did not put any wound on White. He is strong enough to cancel any White's attack but not that much as he cannot wound him.

Anyway, that unnamed technique is named technique which properties changed by Dark Orb

there was a direct confrontation of powers, and Baam's power overwhelmed White one.

And Baam crushed one of White's techniques by waving his hands in his direction, it wasn't even a technique.

That kind of thing doesn't happen when you're just stronger.
You're still focus on the fact that White suffered no injury, but not the fact that he was manhandled like a child.

You did not even counter my statement about Cheonhee. Cheonhee is one of the strongest Div Co, you cannot just generalize Div Co to have equal strength. Don't forget Cheonhee did not lose when she was surrounded by Hansung and multiple servants of Karaka.

Aria fleeing is irrelevant, their leg met so is not OHKO. Fuchile got OHKOed because of surprise attack. Kendrick is a light bearer, it's normal for light bearer/anima to get OHKO from stronger fisherman. Didn't Cha have to get through multiple beastkins controlled by Kendrick? So why don't you count the hits on those beastkins if you count the hits on Traum's wolf? I guess Elbaba would also be defeated if he receive a single direct punch from Cha, just like that former BH lady with green hair who is supposedly stronger than Goruro, what was her name? Lo Po Bia Perper?

From these statements, I wonder whether your definition of power is limited to attack and defense.

Cheonhee > Hansung > Haratcha

Cha can one shot a div co, no matter how strong Cheonhee is compared to other div co she's still a div co, she can't do that, she wouldn't be a div co if she could launch attacks that one shot other div co.

Lyb specifically mentioned that the new 4th corp is more powerful than the old one, so for all intents and purposes Aria should be stronger than Cheonhee, and Aria ran for her life.


Kendrick no longer fights as a LB when he transforms, he relies on his mind control and the 2 creatures that accompany him.
he knocked out all those guys in one go
I can count them if you want, it won't change a thing,

and you ignored the fact that Cha crushed the attacks of several Div Co without difficulty.
and was complimented by Yama and Yas as being able to launch attacks that even they consider extremely powerful.

and we still have Lefav's statement that you can only become a BH once you've reached the top 200, bouncing off EVK's statement that members of the top 300( except in special cases) can annihilate a corp without CC.

yes, if Cha gets past the wolf he could easily beat Elbaba, IF

Perper was tied up and couldn't defend himself properly

so once again, Cheonhee doesn't pass the wolf, she dies there

on the one hand we have a wolf that can fight Cha evenly, and tank anything Cha throws at it
on the other, someone weaker than Karaka
How is that even a conversation?

Cheonhee > Hansung > Haratcha

1: Hansung being stronger than Haratcha is at best debatable, his victory over him is mainly due to Hansung who skillfully used his environment, his victory is situational, if the battle took place elsewhere nothing guarantees the victory of Hansung.
2:
Cha >>> Karaka>Cheonhee
First let her pass Karaka, then we'll discuss Cheonhee who can beat someone who fights Cha with no clear winner

 

[Yelnats]

the only technique used by Baam is the black meteor shower
the rest is either not shown or Baam sweeps the attack with his hands

He also use Shinsu Loop (characterized by multiple circles around him) and Concentrated Shinsu Control Skill - Blue Dragon (characterized by single straight beam with multiple circles around its path), all have their shinsu property changed by Dark Orb

And Baam crushed one of White's techniques by waving his hands in his direction, it wasn't even a technique.

That is Dark Orb-powered Blue Dragon. The "waving his hand" part is used to alter the path of the Blue Dragon to destroy White's attack.

Here is the sequence:

• Baam shot Blue Dragon (which property changed by Dark Orb) to White.
• Before it hit, White unleash Sapphire Single Shot toward Baam.
• Blue Dragon and Sapphire Single Shot graze each other but both keep moving forward to respective target.
• Baam swipe his hand, the Blue Dragon make U-turn toward Sapphire Single Shot, squeze it and destroy it.

so, you're the one making things up, it's not said anywhere, it's implied nowhere, and the star dust wound and the twin wing wound aren't even in the same place

Didn't I already told you discussion about Twin Wing is useless to Dumas vs White? Just because B can wound K, W can wound K, and B cannot wound D, does not mean W cannot wound D!

The fact remains that the only attack of Baam that can pierce EoB is Stardust. Kallavan did not use EoB to block Twin Wing.

Baam walked all over him throughout their confrontation

there was a direct confrontation of powers, and Baam's power overwhelmed White one.

And Baam crushed one of White's techniques by waving his hands in his direction, it wasn't even a technique.

That kind of thing doesn't happen when you're just stronger.
You're still focus on the fact that White suffered no injury, but not the fact that he was manhandled like a child.

Whatever. Baam is definitely stronger but:

Cannot leave even a wound = not much stronger

It's black and white for me so you cannot convince me otherwise unless SIU stated so. Lets just agree to disagree.

this version of Yama was stronger than 1 fang Yama ( and we never see FT anyways), confirmed by Yas

Yama was already exhausted. You can't use "Dumas already exhausted argument" to counter it as what was used was an ignition weapon which had not been used.

Lyb specifically mentioned that the new 4th corp is more powerful than the old one, so for all intents and purposes Aria should be stronger than Cheonhee, and Aria ran for her life.

Aria and co are not the real new 4th army corp. They are just dummy. And the white-haired guy is stronger than the other 3. Any Div Co or low-rank BH with good sense would ran if they face Cha, only the fool or the stubborn would not.

1: Hansung being stronger than Haratcha is at best debatable, his victory over him is mainly due to Hansung who skillfully used his environment, his victory is situational, if the battle took place elsewhere nothing guarantees the victory of Hansung.

So you don't count skill/resourcefulness/intelligence as power? Definitions of power vary wildly so I need to be sure.

Cha can one shot a div co, no matter how strong Cheonhee is compared to other div co she's still a div co, she can't do that, she wouldn't be a div co if she could launch attacks that one shot other div co.

Who said Cheonhee could one shot Div Co? Who said Cha couldn't one shot Cheonhee? My claim is Cha can one shot Elbaba just like he one shot Perper. My other claim is Cheonhee can defeat Elbaba.

and we still have Lefav's statement that you can only become a BH once you've reached the top 200,

No such thing. You misinterpret her statement. BH is simply the highest ranked in the branch, as stated by Doom.

Just because she said she reach top 200 (because killing EVK who is in 200) and then she state she now become BH does not mean the requirement to become BH is top 200. In fact it indicate that the BH in her branch is not even top 200 (between 201 to 277) hence she automatically become highest ranked in her branch (therefore BH) if she reach top 200. Simply reaching top 200 won't make her BH if the existing BH in her branch still ranked higher than her.

Meanwhile, Grey Wolf Branch headed by Elbaba is known as the weakest branch.

and you ignored the fact that Cha crushed the attacks of several Div Co without difficulty.
and was complimented by Yama and Yas as being able to launch attacks that even they consider extremely powerful.

yes, if Cha gets past the wolf he could easily beat Elbaba, IF

so once again, Cheonhee doesn't pass the wolf, she dies there

on the one hand we have a wolf that can fight Cha evenly, and tank anything Cha throws at it
on the other, someone weaker than Karaka
How is that even a conversation?

I never doubted Cha. But Cha was not focusing on beating Elbaba, he was focusing on protecting Baam's friend hence he chose to deal with the wolf (the same way he deal with beastkins instead of going directly for Kendrick). If Cha did not need to protect them, he can just fly straight to Elbaba and hit him with a punch. The weakness of most Anima is if the opponent directly attack the Anima instead of the shinheuh.

Kendrick no longer fights as a LB when he transforms, he relies on his mind control and the 2 creatures that accompany him.
he knocked out all those guys in one go
I can count them if you want, it won't change a thing,

Perper was tied up and couldn't defend himself properly

And Kendrick was in state of shock after his transformation's ability is nullified so he didn't attempt to evade. Fucile also got caught in surprise attack so he didn't have chance to evade. If you can use those two as example, why can't I use tied-up Perper as their equivalent?

Anyway, Kendrick did not get OHKOed by Cha, he first got hit by the ignition weapon of Hatz (Donghae) then he got hit twice by Cha (the last one with Taerim), even after these, he was not KOed, it was a shinheuh that finish him off.

Kendrick is actually more durable than Perper.

Cha >>> Karaka>Cheonhee
First let her pass Karaka, then we'll discuss Cheonhee who can beat someone who fights Cha with no clear winner

Of course Cha >>> Karaka > Cheonhee, I never said otherwise. I said Cheonhee survive a fight with Karaka, it does not mean they are equal, I still think Karaka is stronger than her and can defeat her if time permit.

Cha >>>> Perper > Goruro = Elbaba

As Cha can one shot Perper, he can one shot Cheonhee, Goruro, or Elbaba. All he need is a clean hit. (Actually one shoting a Ha might be a bit harder but I still believe Cha can).

I said that wins in TOG are mainly due to either the opponent being stronger, an advantageous match up or because he has a hax that leads him to victory.

I'm glad you agree that advantageous matchup is also a factor hence I see no point in debating this part further.

 

[sho87]

It should have. Something like that in the hands of an Irregular could have been very interesting.

I'm sure tiara will help out some how, she has to come back to life for that.

 

[Big-Bird]

He also use Shinsu Loop (characterized by multiple circles around him) and Concentrated Shinsu Control Skill - Blue Dragon (characterized by single straight beam with multiple circles around its path), all have their shinsu property changed by Dark Orb


That is Dark Orb-powered Blue Dragon. The "waving his hand" part is used to alter the path of the Blue Dragon to destroy White's attack.

Here is the sequence:

• Baam shot Blue Dragon (which property changed by Dark Orb) to White.
• Before it hit, White unleash Sapphire Single Shot toward Baam.
• Blue Dragon and Sapphire Single Shot graze each other but both keep moving forward to respective target.
• Baam swipe his hand, the Blue Dragon make U-turn toward Sapphire Single Shot, squeze it and destroy it.

Fine, Baam always crushed his techniques as if they were nothing

Didn't I already told you discussion about Twin Wing is useless to Dumas vs White? Just because B can wound K, W can wound K, and B cannot wound D, does not mean W cannot wound D!

The fact remains that the only attack of Baam that can pierce EoB is Stardust. Kallavan did not use EoB to block Twin Wing.

I'm saying that Dumas has a higher durability than base Kallavan, and that's already very good, Kallavan's durability under EOB is above his tier anyway.

Whatever. Baam is definitely stronger but:

Cannot leave even a wound = not much stronger

It's black and white for me so you cannot convince me otherwise unless SIU stated so. Lets just agree to disagree.

as you like, but in a real fight White never goes near him

Yama was already exhausted. You can't use "Dumas already exhausted argument" to counter it as what was used was an ignition weapon which had not been used.

Yas said he was more powerful than in front of the coexistence wall.
he may not have been at his best, but he was still stronger than his former self pre 2 fang

Aria and co are not the real new 4th army corp. They are just dummy. And the white-haired guy is stronger than the other 3. Any Div Co or low-rank BH with good sense would ran if they face Cha, only the fool or the stubborn would not.

Lyb wasn't talking about the "real" new 4th corp, when he said that, an image of the 4th corp with Aria and the others appeared, that's who he was referring to.
and black Div co has never been stated to be the strongest

So you don't count skill/resourcefulness/intelligence as power? Definitions of power vary wildly so I need to be sure.

if I win thanks to a particular element, it's perfectly legitimate to question my superiority if the said element is no longer present.
Hansung used the acid present to beat Haratcha. If the acid hadn't been there, Haratcha would have just cancelled his transformation and the fight would have continued.
and finally Haratcha and he would have been attracted by the black hole and would have remained blocked

Who said Cheonhee could one shot Div Co? Who said Cha couldn't one shot Cheonhee? My claim is Cha can one shot Elbaba just like he one shot Perper. My other claim is Cheonhee can defeat Elbaba.

like Dokoko/Doom, if you manage to get past the shinheuh it's relatively easy to beat the anima, if
your claim that Cheonhee beats Elbaba is less based on reality than a Flat Earther

No such thing. You misinterpret her statement. BH is simply the highest ranked in the branch, as stated by Doom.

Just because she said she reach top 200 (because killing EVK who is in 200) and then she state she now become BH does not mean the requirement to become BH is top 200. In fact it indicate that the BH in her branch is not even top 200 (between 201 to 277) hence she automatically become highest ranked in her branch (therefore BH) if she reach top 200. Simply reaching top 200 won't make her BH if the existing BH in her branch still ranked higher than her.

Meanwhile, Grey Wolf Branch headed by Elbaba is known as the weakest branch.

no, Doom said that the BH is the most powerful member of his branch

Your whole 2nd sentence implies that she's going to replace her BH, which we don't know.
for all we know, she might just have the right to start her own branch.
it's you who has your own interpretation, not me
she needed to be top 200 to become BH, that's all.
nowhere she says she was going to replace her BH, just that she was going to become one

I never doubted Cha. But Cha was not focusing on beating Elbaba, he was focusing on protecting Baam's friend hence he chose to deal with the wolf (the same way he deal with beastkins instead of going directly for Kendrick). If Cha did not need to protect them, he can just fly straight to Elbaba and hit him with a punch. The weakness of most Anima is if the opponent directly attack the Anima instead of the shinheuh.

You say that, but the wolf is still there, if he doesn't beat the wolf then he'll have trouble getting near Elbaba.
We have several examples (Doom/Dokoko, Perper/Goruro) where the shinheuh explicitly needs to be held back for the anima to be reached.
Saying that Cha can just ignore the wolf and rush Elbaba is based on nothing.

And Kendrick was in state of shock after his transformation's ability is nullified so he didn't attempt to evade. Fucile also got caught in surprise attack so he didn't have chance to evade. If you can use those two as example, why can't I use tied-up Perper as their equivalent?

Anyway, Kendrick did not get OHKOed by Cha, he first got hit by the ignition weapon of Hatz (Donghae) then he got hit twice by Cha (the last one with Taerim), even after these, he was not KOed, it was a shinheuh that finish him off.

Kendrick is actually more durable than Perper.

hatz just broke the spell
Perper and those shinheuh were tied up and helpless, Kendrick was still transformed and in a fighting stance.
One was completely unable to do anything, the other wasn't.

well he got hit 2 times, then was absolutely out of the fight, Elbaba wolf had eat far more than 2 punch and was perfectly fine, Cha can't one shot a div co, he can 2 shot them

he's more durable than a tied up Perper, good for him

Of course Cha >>> Karaka > Cheonhee, I never said otherwise. I said Cheonhee survive a fight with Karaka, it does not mean they are equal, I still think Karaka is stronger than her and can defeat her if time permit.

there's nothing to think about, Fucile directly stated that Karaka is above Div co's level, Cheonhee loses and that's not an opinion
And Karaka spent their entire confrontation hiding and running away, something that Cheonhee herself criticised Karaka for.

Cha >>>> Perper > Goruro = Elbaba

As Cha can one shot Perper, he can one shot Cheonhee, Goruro, or Elbaba. All he need is a clean hit. (Actually one shoting a Ha might be a bit harder but I still believe Cha can).

one tap a powerless woman, doesn't make him mysteriously superior
you can't even prove that Cha is above Elbaba and his wolf.
confrontation there was, and the result was indeterminate
You say that Cha can get past the wolf, but there's no proof that he can.

For one shot, Perper, Goruro or Elbaba, he needs to get past their shinheuh, which you are unable to prove too.
Cha = Elbaba
this is what their confrontation indicates at least for now

So for the return to Cheonhee vs Elbaba
she doesn't have any feats showing that she hits as hard as Cha, so she can't do any damage to the wolf who can eat Cha's attacks and come back for more.
so she dies eaten by the wolf
how can this conversation be so long for nothing
what next, you will say me that cheonhee beat Giskar?

 

[Yelnats]

I'm saying that Dumas has a higher durability than base Kallavan

That is a part we don't disagree.

when he said that, an image of the 4th corp with Aria and the others appeared, that's who he was referring to.
and black Div co has never been stated to be the strongest

Lyborick was not being truthful to begin with.

Anyway, who do you thing is stronger, the fake new 4th army corp or the real new 4th army corp?

All the other three are tied to black div co, their ability become his ability when they return inside him. Their immortality also depend on him.

Yas said he was more powerful than in front of the coexistence wall.
he may not have been at his best, but he was still stronger than his former self pre 2 fang

He is more powerful but he was already exhausted. There is nothing to confirm that in the exhausted state he is stronger than pre-2 fang unless you compared it to when he was also exhausted before receiving 2nd fang.

if I win thanks to a particular element, it's perfectly legitimate to question my superiority if the said element is no longer present.
Hansung used the acid present to beat Haratcha. If the acid hadn't been there, Haratcha would have just cancelled his transformation and the fight would have continued.
and finally Haratcha and he would have been attracted by the black hole and would have remained blocked

You think Hansung won't win without the acid and mouse? Haratcha's transformation weakness is that it easily get sucked blackhole. Once he got trapped in the black hole, he is a sitting duck, even without acid Hansung can just use other attacks while remaining at safe distance so he don't get sucked by the black hole.

no, Doom said that the BH is the most powerful member of his branch

Your whole 2nd sentence implies that she's going to replace her BH, which we don't know.
for all we know, she might just have the right to start her own branch.
it's you who has your own interpretation, not me
she needed to be top 200 to become BH, that's all.
nowhere she says she was going to replace her BH, just that she was going to become one

If you want to be precise, Doom said "strongest". And how do they measure that? Most likely they just use ranking even if it is not accurate measurement tool.

You assume Traum would just open new branch? The branches are based on his special shinheuhs, not based on number of family member who become top 200.

Anyway, Lyborick stated that Mayer is going to inherit branch leadership soon, it means he is going to be BH at his current branch, not new branch.

hatz just broke the spell
Perper and those shinheuh were tied up and helpless, Kendrick was still transformed and in a fighting stance.
One was completely unable to do anything, the other wasn't.

well he got hit 2 times, then was absolutely out of the fight, Elbaba wolf had eat far more than 2 punch and was perfectly fine, Cha can't one shot a div co, he can 2 shot them

he's more durable than a tied up Perper, good for him

No, Kendrick Diel was not trying to evade Cha, he was sitting duck due to his shock. It's just same as tied-up Perper as both did not evade hence receive clean direct hit from Cha.

You say that, but the wolf is still there, if he doesn't beat the wolf then he'll have trouble getting near Elbaba.
We have several examples (Doom/Dokoko, Perper/Goruro) where the shinheuh explicitly needs to be held back for the anima to be reached.
Saying that Cha can just ignore the wolf and rush Elbaba is based on nothing.

one tap a powerless woman, doesn't make him mysteriously superior
you can't even prove that Cha is above Elbaba and his wolf.
confrontation there was, and the result was indeterminate
You say that Cha can get past the wolf, but there's no proof that he can.

For one shot, Perper, Goruro or Elbaba, he needs to get past their shinheuh, which you are unable to prove too.
Cha = Elbaba
this is what their confrontation indicates at least for now

So for the return to Cheonhee vs Elbaba
she doesn't have any feats showing that she hits as hard as Cha, so she can't do any damage to the wolf who can eat Cha's attacks and come back for more.
so she dies eaten by the wolf

Elbaba would be knocked out too if he receive a single direct hit from Cha considering that Perper is one of the best BH/former BH at close combat.

The same way, there is no proof that the wolf can stop Cha if Cha chose to go for Elbaba.

Cha = Elbaba???

Lol, talk that to Lobadon who entrust Cha to become one-man army.

how can this conversation be so long for nothing
what next, you will say me that cheonhee beat Giskar?

We are not even debating Dumas vs White anymore. It descend to Cha vs Elbaba

 

[Big-Bird]

Lyborick was not being truthful to begin with.

Anyway, who do you thing is stronger, the fake new 4th army corp or the real new 4th army corp?

All the other three are tied to black div co, their ability become his ability when they return inside him. Their immortality also depend on him.

Meier couldn't kill Hansung with a direct hit, despite the fact that Hansung was tired and specifically said that a direct hit from a HR would kill him instantly.
Meier is not a HR by feat
Aria's bludgeoning this weaklings while the others play cards

that doesn't mean he's the strongest, it just means that he can snowball and become the strongest.

He is more powerful but he was already exhausted. There is nothing to confirm that in the exhausted state he is stronger than pre-2 fang unless you compared it to when he was also exhausted before receiving 2nd fang.

base Yama in Lot>base Yama in coexistence wall
that's what I'm saying, and there's no mention of Yama being weakened or tired in coexistence wall.
so yeah, base Yama in Lot is more powerful than his base pre 2 fang
go and complain to Yas, not to me
he's the one who said Yama is stronger

You think Hansung won't win without the acid and mouse? Haratcha's transformation weakness is that it easily get sucked blackhole. Once he got trapped in the black hole, he is a sitting duck, even without acid Hansung can just use other attacks while remaining at safe distance so he don't get sucked by the black hole.

As I said, Haratcha can literally undo his transformation (as he himself mentioned) to free himself, and the fight goes on.
The only reason he couldn't free himself was because the acid was killing him just too quickly, and also because he seems to be on some kind of mental trip.

If you want to be precise, Doom said "strongest". And how do they measure that? Most likely they just use ranking even if it is not accurate measurement tool.

You assume Traum would just open new branch? The branches are based on his special shinheuhs, not based on number of family member who become top 200.

Anyway, Lyborick stated that Mayer is going to inherit branch leadership soon, it means he is going to be BH at his current branch, not new branch.

Traum has a metric ton of shinheuh, the problem is not the shortage of shinheuh, but the emergence of anima powerful enough to control them

Meier is a hatchling, Lefav isn't, so I don't see why you want them to follow the same rules.

hatchling is a new system that was introduced "recently".
and to answer your comment about Doom, and how they do/did determine who is the strongest Laura tells us about Kukuda that there are competitions to become a BH.
you have your answer

No, Kendrick Diel was not trying to evade Cha, he was sitting duck due to his shock. It's just same as tied-up Perper as both did not evade hence receive clean direct hit from Cha.

Kendrick just said "he didn't believe it" after Hatz broke his spell, then Cha hit him.
Absolutely nothing comparable to someone literally being tied up.
the fact that you're even trying to compare the 2 is lunar.
Perper wasn't even trying to fight before she got tied up, she was running away.

Elbaba would be knocked out too if he receive a single direct hit from Cha considering that Perper is one of the best BH/former BH at close combat.

it doesn't matter if he can one tap Elbaba, if he doesn't pass the wolf it doesn't happen.
what don't you understand about the word "tied"?
that Perper is one of the best in CQC among the BH is irrelevant if she is tied.

The same way, there is no proof that the wolf can stop Cha if Cha chose to go for Elbaba.

don't try to make uno reverse, you're the one who said Cha could outpass the wolf, you're the one who has to prove it, and you can't
I just said that Cha being able to do that is based on nothing, and I'm right.

Cha = Elbaba???

Lol, talk that to Lobadon who entrust Cha to become one-man army.

So what?
So what?
Just so what?
do you understand that this is not a contradiction?
Cha's performance against Elbaba and Rob giving him the role of detached special unit don't contradict each other in any way.

seriously, that's your counter, are youfor real?
i can't believe what I've just seen, that's dumb

We are not even debating Dumas vs White anymore. It descend to Cha vs Elbaba

There's nothing to discuss about Cha vs Elbaba, there was a fight between the 2.
The wolf tried to eat Cha, and didn't succeed
Cha tried to send this wolf to bed, he didn't succeed
they fight, neither won until the fight was interrupted by the arrival of Gustang.
When 2 guys fight and there's no clear winner, it means they're close in power.

It's you who doesn't get it, and who gets stuck on this "if Cha gets close to Elbaba he one shot him" tangent, as if it magically nullified Elbaba's power, when we've already known for several years that anima are much weaker than their shinheuh.
Anima are glass cannons to a certain extent? no shit

this discussion started because you brought up div co, and i replied that div co are fodder not worth mentioning in a powercaling discussion of this level, and i added that elbaba could beat div co, and you said cheonhee could beat elbaba.

this discussion is an Elbaba vs cheonhee, Cha is just a scaling vector.

and the answer to this stellar discussion is:
Cheonhee is going to be eaten.
No feat, no statement, absolutely nothing.
there is nothing to discuss, she dies
the END.

I don't even know what argument you put forward for Cheonhee's victory, not that it matters, Cheonhee has nothing on Elbaba.

Karaka beat Cheonhee
Giskar beat Cheonhee
Elbaba beat Cheonhee
Doom cage arc with one arm beat Cheonhee


///////
White doesn't have the feat and doesn't have the statements to be put on the same level as Dumas, White's power absorption spell uses his sword as a vector (as declared during his fight against Baam), he won't be able to cancel Dumas' armour spell unless he stabs him with his sword to cast the spell.
Dumas makes holes in his body before it happens, thanks to his superior feats.

Cha and Elbaba fought evenly until the fight was interrupted, so Elbaba scales to Cha thanks to his wolf, and you have no proof to deny it
Repeating at the top of your voice that Cha sent Elbaba to bed in one shot is not a contradiction of Elbaba wolf power.

Cheonhee ain't shit, Elbaba kill her, and you have no valid argument to deny it

I'm fed up with this discussion, I'm no longer entertained by this discussion, so I'm off, i will no longer reply.

 

[Yelnats]

As I said, Haratcha can literally undo his transformation (as he himself mentioned) to free himself, and the fight goes on.
The only reason he couldn't free himself was because the acid was killing him just too quickly, and also because he seems to be on some kind of mental trip.

Haratcha stated that it takes a while to change back.

base Yama in Lot>base Yama in coexistence wall
that's what I'm saying, and there's no mention of Yama being weakened or tired in coexistence wall.
so yeah, base Yama in Lot is more powerful than his base pre 2 fang
go and complain to Yas, not to me
he's the one who said Yama is stronger

I am not against what Yas said, I believe him. But when facing Dumas, Yama is still exhausted from his battle at the Nest. Exhaustion reduce combat ability.

Aria's bludgeoning this weaklings while the others play cards

that doesn't mean he's the strongest, it just means that he can snowball and become the strongest.

Yeah talk that to Black Div Co who claimed the other three are useless as usual.

and to answer your comment about Doom, and how they do/did determine who is the strongest Laura tells us about Kukuda that there are competitions to become a BH.
you have your answer

Then your claim that being in top 200 make them BH is wrong. As Doom stated, BH is strongest in branch, if there is competition to determine the strongest, it means the competition determine who become BH, being in top 200 does not make one become BH.

The competition is about becoming the highest ranking within the branch. It can also include defeating the highest ranker in the branch (BH), claim their rank and BH position, etc.

Traum has a metric ton of shinheuh, the problem is not the shortage of shinheuh, but the emergence of anima powerful enough to control them

It's not mere shinheuh, the branch represent special shinheuh.

Kendrick just said "he didn't believe it" after Hatz broke his spell, then Cha hit him.
Absolutely nothing comparable to someone literally being tied up.
the fact that you're even trying to compare the 2 is lunar.
Perper wasn't even trying to fight before she got tied up, she was running away.

That shows that Kendrick is shocked.

No matter, both Kendrick and Perper receive clean hit, the former still retain consciousness after 2 hits while the latter lose consciousness after just a hit.

what don't you understand about the word "tied"?
that Perper is one of the best in CQC among the BH is irrelevant if she is tied.

This is not about tied or not tied, it is about getting clean hit or not. If the target does not make any attempt to block or evade then they are as good as being tied up.

it doesn't matter if he can one tap Elbaba, if he doesn't pass the wolf it doesn't happen.

don't try to make uno reverse, you're the one who said Cha could outpass the wolf, you're the one who has to prove it, and you can't
I just said that Cha being able to do that is based on nothing, and I'm right.

So what?
So what?
Just so what?
do you understand that this is not a contradiction?
Cha's performance against Elbaba and Rob giving him the role of detached special unit don't contradict each other in any way.

seriously, that's your counter, are youfor real?
i can't believe what I've just seen, that's dumb

There's nothing to discuss about Cha vs Elbaba, there was a fight between the 2.
The wolf tried to eat Cha, and didn't succeed
Cha tried to send this wolf to bed, he didn't succeed
they fight, neither won until the fight was interrupted by the arrival of Gustang.
When 2 guys fight and there's no clear winner, it means they're close in power.

It's you who doesn't get it, and who gets stuck on this "if Cha gets close to Elbaba he one shot him" tangent, as if it magically nullified Elbaba's power, when we've already known for several years that anima are much weaker than their shinheuh.
Anima are glass cannons to a certain extent? no shit

Lol

You lose the argument the moment you claim Cha = Elbaba.

Lobadon entrusted Cha to be a one man army piercing through the heart of the enemy forces that had previously defeat multiple BHs, yet you equate Cha with lowly BH like Elbaba and claim he cannot fly pass the wolf if he wanted to? Lol

Do I need to repeat that Cha did not go after Elbaba because he had to protect the sub and the regulars from Wolf attack? Look at the distance. The wolf is very near to the bridge where the regulars were at, far away from Elbaba. If he decided to go straight after Elbaba, the regulars could get killed by the wolf. You are belittling Cha for his correct decision here.

this discussion is an Elbaba vs cheonhee, Cha is just a scaling vector.

and the answer to this stellar discussion is:
Cheonhee is going to be eaten.
No feat, no statement, absolutely nothing.
there is nothing to discuss, she dies
the END.

I don't even know what argument you put forward for Cheonhee's victory, not that it matters, Cheonhee has nothing on Elbaba.

Meier couldn't kill Hansung with a direct hit, despite the fact that Hansung was tired and specifically said that a direct hit from a HR would kill him instantly.
Meier is not a HR by feat

So much for Meiyer who specifically stated by Lyborick as inheriting branch leadership soon. Guess the bottom limit of BH are so low. I can't imagine head of weakest branch (Grey Wolf) being an equal to Cha. Lol

Cha >>> Karaka > Cheonhee > Hansung = Elbaba > Meiyer

White doesn't have the feat and doesn't have the statements to be put on the same level as Dumas, White's power absorption spell uses his sword as a vector (as declared during his fight against Baam), he won't be able to cancel Dumas' armour spell unless he stabs him with his sword to cast the spell.
Dumas makes holes in his body before it happens, thanks to his superior feats.

Feat depends on opportunity, just because one had not been given opportunity, does not mean one is weaker that those already have the feat. This feat argument is not confirmation but mere assumption. This is why I use the word "might" when talking about White-Dumas-Kallavan like scissors-paper-rock, unlike you who are so sure just based on assumption.

The overflowing power from Black Orb counter White's attack before hitting Baam (stated by White) hence in that situation, he won't be able to use ranged technique (which has spell sigil) such as the one used by AA on Dumas (which is stated by AA as White's technique).

i will no longer reply.

I'm counting on it.

 

[Bigrong49]

Im currently praying for Yama Downfall
The OVERreaction bc he pierced Proust
Shield is crazy

Sophia >>>>>>>>>> Proust

Yama is like the slayer underdog favorite if that makes sense

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 3, 2024, Original Post Date: Apr 3, 2024 ---

He was shit enough to beat Baam's worthless ass, if nothing else.

to progress the story for lost memory flashback

 

[King Dryst]

to progress the story for lost memory flashback

Could have been accomplished in several other ways. SIU deliberately chose and wanted to make Baam look like a piece of dog shit.

 

[Yelnats]

SIU deliberately chose and wanted to make Baam look like a piece of dog shit.

Yes, very obvious... no 2nd thorn, no Meteor Shower, and no Black Orb. It baffled me that he only use shinwonryu to escape from entrapment by Rosario Carrier but never to attack Dumas. He should have known better that if no regular attack work, he should attempt shinwonryu-based attack such as Stardust-Meteor Shower.