Canon Vergo vs Sanji with Raid Suit

[King Moe]

struggling? Vergo destroyed sanji legs in one clash. Raid suit gives durability boos for sanji, but i'm still inclined for vergo wins. Vergo is just too tough as a fighter. If sanji can improve his CoA, then maybe he can get a draw or extreme diff win

Nah, just your headcannon just like with Zoro able to solo Kaido for example. Sanji waste him easily without and with RS at this point and could even beat him back then.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Nah, just your headcannon just like with Zoro able to solo Kaido for example. Sanji waste him easily without and with RS at this point and could even beat him back then.

don't derail the topic by bringing up about zoro.
Sanji lost hard to vergo back then. He was no match for vergo's CoA.
Raid suit is not that durable too to be honest, we saw ichiji lost hard to katakuri. Vergo is a CoA expert and can beat sanji hard too here

 

[Crimson Ice]

don't derail the topic by bringing up about zoro.
Sanji lost hard to vergo back then. He was no match for vergo's CoA.
Raid suit is not that durable too to be honest, we saw ichiji lost hard to katakuri. Vergo is a CoA expert and can beat sanji hard too here

The Raid Suit is insanely durable, Sanji was able to take a head-on attack from Page One with nearly no damage. Katakuri didn't knock Ichji out nor is Ichji as strong as Sanji without the suit, comparing them is irrelevant. If Sanji is on the level of the flying Six he's wiping the floor with Vergo.

 

[Nie Li]

The Raid Suit is insanely durable, Sanji was able to take a head-on attack from Page One with nearly no damage. Katakuri didn't knock Ichji out nor is Ichji as strong as Sanji without the suit, comparing them is irrelevant. If Sanji is on the level of the flying Six he's wiping the floor with Vergo.

To be honest the only durability that was hyped about the RS when it withstood Page One's attack was the cape. Sanji especifically defined the cape as a shield after blocking the attack with it.

I'd cut Ichiji some slack: unlike Niji and Yonji he had no clashes with Sanji, and the siblings' main supernatural powers are from the surgery and not from the RS.

Edit: What I mean about Ichiji is that he could be weaker than Sanji without RS but there's no proof.

 

[Crimson Ice]

To be honest the only durability that was hyped about the RS when it withstood Page One's attack was the cape. Sanji especifically defined the cape as a shield after blocking the attack with it.

I'd cut Ichiji some slack: unlike Niji and Yonji he had no clashes with Sanji, and the siblings' main supernatural powers are from the surgery and not from the RS.

Edit: What I mean about Ichiji is that he could be weaker than Sanji without RS but there's no proof.

The Germa clones were shocked at Sanji's level of physical ability without a raid suit against Judge, making it seem not normal for a family member to be that strong without it. A raid suit-less Sanji definitely gets the benefit of the doubt against a raid suit-less Ichiji.

 

[Nie Li]

The Germa clones were shocked at Sanji's level of physical ability without a raid suit against Judge, making it seem not normal for a family member to be that strong without it. A raid suit-less Sanji definitely gets the benefit of the doubt against a raid suit-less Ichiji.

I get your point but the way I see it Sanji wasn't considered "a family member" on the same standing as his brothers, he was considered a failure who didn't get the same superhuman birth-benefits as his siblings so he was expected to be much weaker and the fact alone that he proved to actually be around the same level as his siblings surprised everyone.

I don't think we will ever see Ichiji fight without his RS if we didn't see him do it during WCI since that was "their" arc, but if we ever see RS Sanji being clearly superior to Ichiji then it will be safe to assume he's also superior to him if compared without RS.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 24, 2020 ---

I'll add something on this topic.

I don't think any of the Vinsmoke siblings is weaker than Judge, and I believe some of them, particularly Ichiji and Niji, should be stronger than Judge even without the RS.

Judge is their leader, since they can't disobey him and it's not that he's weak, either. He may also be a good strategist, being a leader, a king and a very good scientist. However, what would be the point on the whole "having genetically enhanced sons" if the Raid Suits were enough to make a "normal" person like Judge become superior to them?

Raid Suits boost durability and may boost certain abilities (on top of providing the ability to fly among other things) but the elemental supernatural techniques from the siblings and most of their stats are their basic strength and not something gained from the RS. They were on the superhuman level of strength as kids, have exoskeletons, and have been daily trained since they were born, with no emotions or complaints; the RS for them is just the cherry on top. I believe Sanji will surpass Ichiji for good in a future arc, though.

 

[King Moe]

don't derail the topic by bringing up about zoro.
Sanji lost hard to vergo back then. He was no match for vergo's CoA.
Raid suit is not that durable too to be honest, we saw ichiji lost hard to katakuri. Vergo is a CoA expert and can beat sanji hard too here

Not derailing, just using examples of someone who actually got damage to faint on their end.

Sanji bested Vergo and still kept fighting until he needed to leave while nerf. Sanji would have beaten him if he was 100% going in that arc. He would easily beat him with RS and without it at this point no problem. Also are you comparing Vergo same lvl as Katakuri? LMAO headcannons on you to disrespect Katakuri like that as Vergo would lose immensely to even YVs if he were to face Yonko Crew. Sanji already proven he is above that and can beat shit out of them with ease, so Vergo has no chance on winning nor able to handle him at all either.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2020 ---

The Germa clones were shocked at Sanji's level of physical ability without a raid suit against Judge, making it seem not normal for a family member to be that strong without it. A raid suit-less Sanji definitely gets the benefit of the doubt against a raid suit-less Ichiji.

Pretty sure it been establish Sanji is strongest of his siblings and family with his father added given his performance we seen compare to them especially without RS. He trained to fight without RS for many years while his siblings depends on that more for fighting than fighting without. It is shown how he defeated RS Yonji and almost broke Niji's neck without trying and they need blackmail to stop him along Judge needed Clones to block for him as he couldn't take his attack. Highly doubt Ichiji is far above, but he is second-strongest or tie with Judge to probably be YC4 lvl threat, but don't see him above Sanji at all RS or not.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Not derailing, just using examples of someone who actually got damage to faint on their end.

stop derailing even further with the killer fight. This topic is on sanji, no need to bash at other character

Sanji bested Vergo and still kept fighting until he needed to leave while nerf. Sanji would have beaten him if he was 100% going in that arc. He would easily beat him with RS and without it at this point no problem. Also are you comparing Vergo same lvl as Katakuri? LMAO headcannons on you to disrespect Katakuri like that as Vergo would lose immensely to even YVs if he were to face Yonko Crew. Sanji already proven he is above that and can beat shit out of them with ease, so Vergo has no chance on winning nor able to handle him at all either.

when did i say vergo is the same lvl as katakuri? Give me proof of that.
Just saying that raid suit is not that durable, even katakuri who does not have advanced CoA destroyed raid suit ichiji.
Vergo beat sanji with low difficulty at PH. Don't see raid suit closing the power up for sanji to catch up to vergo's level. Sanji still loses here.

 

[Nie Li]

stop derailing even further with the killer fight. This topic is on sanji, no need to bash at other character

when did i say vergo is the same lvl as katakuri? Give me proof of that.
Just saying that raid suit is not that durable, even katakuri who does not have advanced CoA destroyed raid suit ichiji.
Vergo beat sanji with low difficulty at PH. Don't see raid suit closing the power up for sanji to catch up to vergo's level. Sanji still loses here.

I agree about Vergo low-diffing Sanji back at PH (and I don't get how there's such a heated debate about that point) so it's not clear exactly how much a RS would close that gap, together with however much Sanji has grown since then.

However, about the thing I bolded out:

Ichiji was lowdiffed by Katakuri (although it was a short-term defeat. Ichiji was fighting again and punching holes through Oven soon after) but his Raid Suit was intact when he was defeated by Katakuri. I don't know about the anime because I don't watch it and I don't consider it canon, but in the manga we didn't see exactly how did Katakuri defeat Ichiji, we only saw him holding him by the neck and Ichiji bleeding from the mouth. In that scene, and in the ones after that, Ichiji's RS is intact, so it's possible that Katakuri just punched Ichiji in his exposed face and held him by his also exposed neck.
That would mean that the RS could possibly be able of tanking Katakuri's attacks (at least unless he were to seriously try to deliver a piercing attack), but it simply leaves the head exposed.

 

[King Moe]

stop derailing even further with the killer fight. This topic is on sanji, no need to bash at other character

when did i say vergo is the same lvl as katakuri? Give me proof of that.
Just saying that raid suit is not that durable, even katakuri who does not have advanced CoA destroyed raid suit ichiji.
Vergo beat sanji with low difficulty at PH. Don't see raid suit closing the power up for sanji to catch up to vergo's level. Sanji still loses here.

You saying Vergo COA is at the same level of Katakuri as he would do same thing like he did to his brother which I found laughable if your pushing him YC1 when he got beaten by Law and Smoker easily after.

Also what Ichiji have to do with this? Sanji is strongest of his family overall, Ichiji losing doesn't mean anything especially he later bested YVs like Oven later and Judge was able to face off Snack an YC4, so Idk what you mean on that as Vergo is still not at level of any of these guys even using his Haki.

Sanji wasted Vergo easily as much as Kamazou wasted Zoro in their fight. Sanji never lost the fight as Vergo choose to run, so inconclusive, but he was able to damage him even nerf, so Sanji even back then would beat Vergo in the end at 100% and at this point would easily beat him even now.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 28, 2020 ---

I agree about Vergo low-diffing Sanji back at PH (and I don't get how there's such a heated debate about that point) so it's not clear exactly how much a RS would close that gap, together with however much Sanji has grown since then.

However, about the thing I bolded out:

Ichiji was lowdiffed by Katakuri (although it was a short-term defeat. Ichiji was fighting again and punching holes through Oven soon after) but his Raid Suit was intact when he was defeated by Katakuri. I don't know about the anime because I don't watch it and I don't consider it canon, but in the manga we didn't see exactly how did Katakuri defeat Ichiji, we only saw him holding him by the neck and Ichiji bleeding from the mouth. In that scene, and in the ones after that, Ichiji's RS is intact, so it's possible that Katakuri just punched Ichiji in his exposed face and held him by his also exposed neck.
That would mean that the RS could possibly be able of tanking Katakuri's attacks (at least unless he were to seriously try to deliver a piercing attack), but it simply leaves the head exposed.

Not really as Sanji would beaten Vergo in the end if the fight continues as he getting hang back into his body and plus 100% going in it make it easier for Sanji as he was nerf due to events prior with his body, but was still able to push Vergo back and make him bleed twice without even his full arsenal still.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

You saying Vergo COA is at the same level of Katakuri as he would do same thing like he did to his brother which I found laughable if your pushing him YC1 when he got beaten by Law and Smoker easily after.

Also what Ichiji have to do with this? Sanji is strongest of his family overall, Ichiji losing doesn't mean anything especially he later bested YVs like Oven later and Judge was able to face off Snack an YC4, so Idk what you mean on that as Vergo is still not at level of any of these guys even using his Haki.

Sanji wasted Vergo easily as much as Kamazou wasted Zoro in their fight. Sanji never lost the fight as Vergo choose to run, so inconclusive, but he was able to damage him even nerf, so Sanji even back then would beat Vergo in the end at 100% and at this point would easily beat him even now.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 28, 2020 ---

Not really as Sanji would beaten Vergo in the end if the fight continues as he getting hang back into his body and plus 100% going in it make it easier for Sanji as he was nerf due to events prior with his body, but was still able to push Vergo back and make him bleed twice without even his full arsenal still.

Nope, sanji is not the strongest in his family. That would be to either ichiji or judge. Judge beat sanji in WCI (before the wedding).
Dunno what you mean as "Sanji wasted Vergo easily as much as Kamazou wasted Zoro in their fight" even tho zoro beat kamazou. I guess you mean that vergo did beat sanji? Lmao

vergo didn't have his full arsenal against sanji, He never went full hardening on his entire body and used his bamboo weapon. He toyed and beat sanji.

 

[King Moe]

Nope, sanji is not the strongest in his family. That would be to either ichiji or judge. Judge beat sanji in WCI (before the wedding).
Dunno what you mean as "Sanji wasted Vergo easily as much as Kamazou wasted Zoro in their fight" even tho zoro beat kamazou. I guess you mean that vergo did beat sanji? Lmao

vergo didn't have his full arsenal against sanji, He never went full hardening on his entire body and used his bamboo weapon. He toyed and beat sanji.

He is the strongest in the family as heavily implied and shown on his capabilities unlike his siblings especially fact that they need RS more to fight while he is fine without fighting with his. Also you don't beat anyone when you faint in the end. Kamazou looks like he won more since he wake up faster and came to Udon despite his injuries while Zoro was bedridden at the time. Zoro fainted hard while Sanji fight off Vergo even nerf, so Idk what you mean there. I think your confusing Zoro stealing enemy's weapon to tied with an nerf opponent who still came out better than him overall lol.

Neither did Sanji and Sanji was nerf while not giving his full power, so again you have nothing to state about who would win when Sanji already busted them open twice and push him back even with his damage and nerf.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

He is the strongest in the family as heavily implied and shown on his capabilities unlike his siblings especially fact that they need RS more to fight while he is fine without fighting with his. Also you don't beat anyone when you faint in the end. Kamazou looks like he won more since he wake up faster and came to Udon despite his injuries while Zoro was bedridden at the time. Zoro fainted hard while Sanji fight off Vergo even nerf, so Idk what you mean there. I think your confusing Zoro stealing enemy's weapon to tied with an nerf opponent who still came out better than him overall lol.

Neither did Sanji and Sanji was nerf while not giving his full power, so again you have nothing to state about who would win when Sanji already busted them open twice and push him back even with his damage and nerf.

strongest in the family? Sanji lost to judge. Niji also can easily blitz sanji with his speed (we saw niji mocking sanji's slow speed when niji rescued sanji to escape WCI)

lol you seriously want to say kamazou wins because he "wakes up faster"? Dunno what's your point here with that headcanon. I mean, kamazou is presumably woken up by force to be brought to udon (why else would he let himself be captured like that). Not to mention you were talking about stuff after the fight
Zoro is also nerfed in that fight, he didnt have shushui. You argue like that fight was 100% zoro, which isn't true. Stop derailing the topic and makes this Zoro vs Sanji topic. I already told you this.

Nah sanji wasn't nerfed. On his fight, there is no visible wound seen on sanji. He lost to vergo even when vergo wasn't fully serious yet

 

[King Moe]

strongest in the family? Sanji lost to judge. Niji also can easily blitz sanji with his speed (we saw niji mocking sanji's slow speed when niji rescued sanji to escape WCI)

lol you seriously want to say kamazou wins because he "wakes up faster"? Dunno what's your point here with that headcanon. I mean, kamazou is presumably woken up by force to be brought to udon (why else would he let himself be captured like that). Not to mention you were talking about stuff after the fight
Zoro is also nerfed in that fight, he didnt have shushui. You argue like that fight was 100% zoro, which isn't true. Stop derailing the topic and makes this Zoro vs Sanji topic. I already told you this.

Nah sanji wasn't nerfed. On his fight, there is no visible wound seen on sanji. He lost to vergo even when vergo wasn't fully serious yet

You mean using clone bodies to protect him from attack? Yeah if you like cheating in that case. I guess Zoro unable to handle multiple opponents is justified as losses then. Sanji would beat Judge and Niji only speed blitz when he is holding someone and dodging attacks. Coming from same guy who need blackmail to stop Sanji from attack him and couldn't dodge when he strike Niji down. Your headcannon your way to imaginations again.

Kamazou heavily implied he did since he went all the way to Udon when we see him next time. No way you can walk in seconds to Udon, so he did came out better and nah. It stated and implied they found him wandering around area, not back in area he was left in. Nothing stated they found him in where he fought Zoro. Nothing is nerf when your trained in every sword style like he was, so no he wasn't nerf unlike Kamazou who was mentally screw up and doesn't have his same weapons to boot. Never said it was his 100% like you are, but he should done better as in past not first time he face with less sword with someone and still beat them. Seems like that change now given he needed to steal a weapon of nerf enemy to tie with them. He needs retraining again if that is his performance he can do as think of what war will be like for him then.

He was nerf as stated he was damage going in and yet still able to damage Vergo and handle him off in good manner which Vergo had to leave since he couldn't take him out as he thought. 100% Sanji would defeat him better and you do know Sanji wasn't serious at all either. Also why are we thinking about this when current Sanji beat Vergo already, so Idk why your pushing back past and getting off-topic when we should be discussing current events.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

You mean using clone bodies to protect him from attack? Yeah if you like cheating in that case. I guess Zoro unable to handle multiple opponents is justified as losses then. Sanji would beat Judge and Niji only speed blitz when he is holding someone and dodging attacks. Coming from same guy who need blackmail to stop Sanji from attack him and couldn't dodge when he strike Niji down. Your headcannon your way to imaginations again.

Kamazou heavily implied he did since he went all the way to Udon when we see him next time. No way you can walk in seconds to Udon, so he did came out better and nah. It stated and implied they found him wandering around area, not back in area he was left in. Nothing stated they found him in where he fought Zoro. Nothing is nerf when your trained in every sword style like he was, so no he wasn't nerf unlike Kamazou who was mentally screw up and doesn't have his same weapons to boot. Never said it was his 100% like you are, but he should done better as in past not first time he face with less sword with someone and still beat them. Seems like that change now given he needed to steal a weapon of nerf enemy to tie with them. He needs retraining again if that is his performance he can do as think of what war will be like for him then.

He was nerf as stated he was damage going in and yet still able to damage Vergo and handle him off in good manner which Vergo had to leave since he couldn't take him out as he thought. 100% Sanji would defeat him better and you do know Sanji wasn't serious at all either. Also why are we thinking about this when current Sanji beat Vergo already, so Idk why your pushing back past and getting off-topic when we should be discussing current events.

judge beat sanji before the human wall, in aerial fight and on-ground fight.

don't derail this topic by bringing zoro into this discussion.
i won't bother to reply for any zoro remarks any further, since it's clear you just want to bash at zoro here anyway

100% sanji loses to vergo. Vergo has superior CoA compared to sanji's.
Vergo beat sanji with raid suit. I agree with what critical mindset said here. Raid suit is not enough for sanji to close up his power gap to vergo's level. Vergo has great CoA game going on.

 

[M3J]

But, after Sanji's leg fracture in the manga there was only a single more page of combat before Vergo had to chase Law and abandon the fight, and during that page and especially right after, Sanji shows high pain and mentions himself how the fight looked grim for himself.

Yeah, and Sanji kept up with Vergo even after the leg fracture. He never went down and held his leg in pain or anything, That alone tells me that Sanji could have kept up and still had a chance of beating Vergo, but as he himself implied/said, he'd have taken so much damage that he wouldn't have been able to move as quickly or with strength as he did after the fight.

I mean, despite everything the manga shows, people keep insisting Vergo had the upper hand, which makes no sense given Sanji still fighting until both chose to abandon the fight.

 

[Nie Li]

Yeah, and Sanji kept up with Vergo even after the leg fracture. He never went down and held his leg in pain or anything, That alone tells me that Sanji could have kept up and still had a chance of beating Vergo, but as he himself implied/said, he'd have taken so much damage that he wouldn't have been able to move as quickly or with strength as he did after the fight.

I mean, despite everything the manga shows, people keep insisting Vergo had the upper hand, which makes no sense given Sanji still fighting until both chose to abandon the fight.

I could answer this just be posting again exactly what you're quoting.

What do you mean "Given Sanji kept fighting until both chose to abandon the fight" if the fight only lasted one more page? The fight stopped almost immediately after the leg fracture.

It makes no sense how people keep insisting Sanji had a good chance of winning that fight despite everything the manga shows.

 

[King Moe]

judge beat sanji before the human wall, in aerial fight and on-ground fight.

don't derail this topic by bringing zoro into this discussion.
i won't bother to reply for any zoro remarks any further, since it's clear you just want to bash at zoro here anyway

100% sanji loses to vergo. Vergo has superior CoA compared to sanji's.
Vergo beat sanji with raid suit. I agree with what critical mindset said here. Raid suit is not enough for sanji to close up his power gap to vergo's level. Vergo has great CoA game going on.

Nah, he never did as he kept fighting, but Judge knew he couldn't handle it and thus ask for help to block Sanji's attack cause he knew he wouldn't strike people down unlike Judge would. Judge cheated on his end and even after fight Sanji was unscathed from it and heavily implied he gave up the fight out of disgust.

Not derailing, but examples so you now agree Zoro is unable to handle multiple opponents is justified given what we seen from him, so either you agree on all your statement or you don't, so don't back out now since it qualifies on other characters.

Nah, Sanji would 100% literally beat him in the end and Vergo would lose even harder to Sanji as he is now without or with RS at this point. You only got your headcannon to back you up without no proof. Sanji made Vergo leave despite his nerf and injuries as Vergo still couldn't take him down despite his originally mission. Vergo would lose if the fight went on longer and doesn't matter on his COA since you don't need full Haki Body Armor to defeat someone like him as Law proves.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Nah, he never did as he kept fighting, but Judge knew he couldn't handle it and thus ask for help to block Sanji's attack cause he knew he wouldn't strike people down unlike Judge would. Judge cheated on his end and even after fight Sanji was unscathed from it and heavily implied he gave up the fight out of disgust.

Not derailing, but examples so you now agree Zoro is unable to handle multiple opponents is justified given what we seen from him, so either you agree on all your statement or you don't, so don't back out now since it qualifies on other characters.

Nah, Sanji would 100% literally beat him in the end and Vergo would lose even harder to Sanji as he is now without or with RS at this point. You only got your headcannon to back you up without no proof. Sanji made Vergo leave despite his nerf and injuries as Vergo still couldn't take him down despite his originally mission. Vergo would lose if the fight went on longer and doesn't matter on his COA since you don't need full Haki Body Armor to defeat someone like him as Law proves.

Wrong. Judge easily blocked sanji attack, we saw this in their aerial fight, followed with judge knocking down sanji to the ground. Judge won fair even before the human wall

it's not back-out when you keep derailing this topic. You were scolded by goldb in the zoro gauntlet for bashing at zoro and it's clear you just want to antagonize at him here too. I prefer a proper discussion, hence why I stop debunking your headcanon on zoro feats

nope, vergo easily broke sanji's legs even without the bamboo. Sanji is never going to win against vergo. Vergo left not because of sanji (as what you claimed), but because law messed up thing in the SAD room.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Nope, sanji is not the strongest in his family. That would be to either ichiji or judge. Judge beat sanji in WCI (before the wedding).
Dunno what you mean as "Sanji wasted Vergo easily as much as Kamazou wasted Zoro in their fight" even tho zoro beat kamazou. I guess you mean that vergo did beat sanji? Lmao

vergo didn't have his full arsenal against sanji, He never went full hardening on his entire body and used his bamboo weapon. He toyed and beat sanji.

Judge beat Sanji by using bait, not being stronger than Sanji. Sanji was quite obviously stronger than Judge, and that’s pre raid suit.