I am not exactly sure what you are saying, but I'll take a stab at it. Igneel powered Natsu can kill Zeref. DF Natsu can destroy Zeref's body. Natsu with the power of the guild can burn FH Zeref's ability to reverse time. Even assuming that natsu with the power of the guild is the strongest version of Natsu (debatable if Igneel powered Natsu can kill actually kill Zeref), it's still pretty clear that this version of Natsu is not the same as the version that fought Neinhart. Natsu burned his arm to the point where you can almost see the bones on his finger to put down Zeref. The amount of effort in the two attacks is incomparable.
This was the panel right before he finished off Zeref in chapter 536. Zeref is stronger than Mavis. He knows more magic. The fact that he can match Natsu blow for blow puts him on the same level as Gray. Zeref was a match for Igneel powered Natsu when it came to hand to hand combat. That scar on Natsu's face was from Zeref's blasts. Zeref can blast a hole through Larcade, who should be tougher than your average Spriggan 12. How is this not at least Gray level?
Why are you acting like all you need to be is Gray's level of strength to beat Invel? I consider Gajeel to also be around Gray's level but since he has no counter to getting frozen, I think Invel beats him. You need to be both at Grays level plus have a counter to avoid getting frozen long enough for Invel to pull out ice lock and divine Raiment. August has that counter and Eileen too (turning into dragon form) but Zeref doesn't/hasn't shown any. You underestimate the role that Invel's, inability to just straight up freeze Gray since he's an ice devil slayer, played in their fight. Why are you still using that Larcade feat? As I already said, putting a hole through an even stronger unsuspecting spriggan was a feat accomplished by Brandish with a knife. Larcade was in worse shape than August but this is only because August is far stronger than Larcade.
Gray never consumed the divine ice. He merely copied it, used it to create gauntlets, and smashed Invel's armour. At no point where the words consumed used, or was Gray shown eating the ice. Invel didn't say he reformed the ice form his armour. Invel didn't say he ate the ice, or otherwise consumed it. Invel said he imitated the ice. So that's what Gray did.
Zeref ripped Fairy Heart from Mavis, something which even Irene had difficulty doing. I don't see how this is any less impressive than Invel's ice lock. Not being able to beat Acnologia doesn't make you trash. It's likely nobody can beat Acnologia in direct combat. Acnologia literally has the power to solo the world when it comes to direct combat.
Invel saw how Gray made divine gauntlets. So he said it. And that doesn't mean Gray didn't consume his ice. It is his ability - consuming ice in any form. He consumed it bs of DeS magic and made gauntlets bs of his make magic. So that is it. There is no sense what Invel said about Gray, he never has ability to make ice with some strange attribute without knowing about what is it and how it works. No one can't. August needs to see magic to analyse it, Bluenote needs human body or magic itself. Gray has no any same things to copy magic or material characteristics. But he has ability to consume all ice and use it in any way.
Consuming FH is not impressive. It is just ability. It is like say that Natsu in GMG was stronger than dragon bs he can resist his fire.
So - being affected by some low magic (ice lock on Mavis) is more impressive than being consumed by some ability.
Not being able to beat Acnologia doesn't make you trash.
If you can erase magic out of your opponent body and also you are immortal - yes, it makes you trash.
Mavis is infinite magic. Zeref may know all magic in the world, but if you strike him with any infinite magic (iced shell, sleep, or just put big rock on him) he can't do anything against you. Knowing more magic doesn't make you stronger, so like having more magic to. But infinite magic is another question.
The fact that he can match Natsu blow for blow puts him on the same level as Gray. Zeref was a match for Igneel powered Natsu when it came to hand to hand combat. That scar on Natsu's face was from Zeref's blasts.
No one said that Zeref weaker than Gray. He can be strong as Acnologia, but what can he do versus ice lock which can hold even infinite magic??? Acnologia just eats this ice and that's all. But Zeref can't.
Halfdead Sting scratched whole Lacarde's body. You try to rate Zeref by person, who was beaten by really weak attack? Pathetic.
Attack power =\= hax power. You can smash hax mage with your finger (ofc if you strong enough), but this hax mage can stop you even if you stronger than him (so base on hax type and how it works).
Lacarde's hax works on Irene who stronger than him in many times, and also works on whole battlefield with Mavis, Gildarts, Zeref and others. And without resist you cant resist *_* it. You can punch yourself so long if you want, but hax still be working when pain comes down.
How Irene can avoid ice lock and divine ice? Well, she can enchants Invel's armor like nothing, but ice lock block your mind. You can't do any thing under ice lock. And bringing power of friendship to argue this is more BS than this PoF itself. Actually in this T where PoF is not exist.
Invel saw how Gray made divine gauntlets. So he said it. And that doesn't mean Gray didn't consume his ice. It is his ability - consuming ice in any form. He consumed it bs of DeS magic and made gauntlets bs of his make magic. So that is it. There is no sense what Invel said about Gray, he never has ability to make ice with some strange attribute without knowing about what is it and how it works. No one can't. August needs to see magic to analyse it, Bluenote needs human body or magic itself. Gray has no any same things to copy magic or material characteristics. But he has ability to consume all ice and use it in any way.
Consuming FH is not impressive. It is just ability. It is like say that Natsu in GMG was stronger than dragon bs he can resist his fire.
So - being affected by some low magic (ice lock on Mavis) is more impressive than being consumed by some ability.
Not being able to beat Acnologia doesn't make you trash.
If you can erase magic out of your opponent body and also you are immortal - yes, it makes you trash.
Mavis is infinite magic. Zeref may know all magic in the world, but if you strike him with any infinite magic (iced shell, sleep, or just put big rock on him) he can't do anything against you. Knowing more magic doesn't make you stronger, so like having more magic to. But infinite magic is another question.
No one said that Zeref weaker than Gray. He can be strong as Acnologia, but what can he do versus ice lock which can hold even infinite magic??? Acnologia just eats this ice and that's all. But Zeref can't.
Halfdead Sting scratched whole Lacarde's body. You try to rate Zeref by person, who was beaten by really weak attack? Pathetic.
Attack power =\= hax power. You can smash hax mage with your finger (ofc if you strong enough), but this hax mage can stop you even if you stronger than him (so base on hax type and how it works).
Lacarde's hax works on Irene who stronger than him in many times, and also works on whole battlefield with Mavis, Gildarts, Zeref and others. And without resist you cant resist *_* it. You can punch yourself so long if you want, but hax still be working when pain comes down.
How Irene can avoid ice lock and divine ice? Well, she can enchants Invel's armor like nothing, but ice lock block your mind. You can't do any thing under ice lock. And bringing power of friendship to argue this is more BS than this PoF itself. Actually in this T where PoF is not exist.
When do you see Gray consume Invel's ice? Do you see Gray eating the ice? Do you see the ice being absorbed into his body? Is there any dialogue that actually says he ate the ice or absorbed it? The official translations says that Gray is imitating Invel's ice with his ice-make magic. That's the canon explanation, so that's what Gray did.
Being able to rip Fairy Heart out of Mavis' body is every bit as impressive as being able to cast ice lock. Again, it was a difficult task for Irene to do and Irene is an August level enchanter. Just because you can rip magic from Mavis doesn't mean you can rip magic from Acnologia. Mavis might have infinite power, but she isn't that strong of a fighter. Being able to beat Mavis doesn't make you the end all be all. Having infinite magical power doesn't mean all your attacks have infinite power behind them. You simply won't run out of power. The power behind the attack still depends on the type of magic you use. Fairy Heart can let you spam etherion, but that doesn't mean Mavis can spam etherion.
Mavis wasn't even using Fairy Heart's power. If she were using Fairy Heart, then she probably would have had a form that resembled Zeref's FH form. You act as if Invel froze FH Zeref in face to face combat, which was far from what actually happened. He froze a distracted Mavis who wasn't using FH's power. If Invel's ice lock would have worked on someone far stronger than himself, then he would have just used it on Gray in their rematch. He didn't. Invel said that Juvia and Gray couldn't possibly deny his orders to kill each other, and that the chains cannot be broken unless one of them dies. Well guess what? Juvia and Gray were both able to disregard Invel's orders to kill each other, and the chains broke before either of them died.
What is stopping Irene from turning Invel into a mouse before he places ice lock on her?
When do you see Gray consume Invel's ice? Do you see Gray eating the ice? Do you see the ice being absorbed into his body? Is there any dialogue that actually says he ate the ice or absorbed it? Is there any evidence to suggest that it was because of his devil slaying magic. The official translations says that Gray is imitating Invel's ice with his ice-make magic. That's the canon explanation, so that's what Gray did.
Being able to rip Fairy Heart out of Mavis' body is every bit as impressive as being able to cast ice lock. Again, it was a difficult task for Irene to do and Irene is an August level enchanter. Just because you can rip magic from Mavis doesn't mean you can rip magic from Acnologia. Mavis might have infinite power, but she isn't that strong of a fighter. Being able to beat Mavis doesn't make you the end all be all. Having infinite magical power doesn't mean all your attacks have infinite power behind them. You simply won't run out of power. The power behind the attack still depends on the type of magic you use. Fairy Heart can let you spam etherion, but that doesn't mean Mavis can spam etherion. Mavis wasn't even using Fairy Heart. She specifically stated that she was against using it because of the backlash it could cause. If she were using Fairy Heart, then she probably would have had a form that resembled Zeref's FH form. You act as if Invel froze FH Zeref in face to face combat, which was far from what actually happened. He froze a distracted Mavis who wasn't using FH's power.
Invel said that Juvia and Gray couldn't possibly deny his orders to kill each other, and that the chains cannot be broken unless one of them dies. Well guess what? Juvia and Gray were both able to disregard Invel's orders to kill each other, and the chains broke before either of them died. What is stopping Irene from turning Invel into a rat before he places ice lock on him? Invel didn't even manage to place Ice lock on Gray once Gray was pumped on POF, and Dragon Irene > POF Gray.
Wasn't it pof/power of love that allowed Juvia and Gray to resist ice lock long enough to kill themselves? However, even with pof, a power that Zeref lacks, they still couldn't resist enough to attack Invel rather than kill themselves. Based on the context of its uses, Ice lock works best as a sneak attack, freezing someone's thoughts and mind while they are not realizing its happening. Hence, I am going with the idea that Invel could only use it against Zeref if he manages to freeze him for a second first, a feat that I imagine Invel to be capable of. Then if Invel immediately uses divine raiment, Zeref would have to resist and escape two haxes at the same time which I don't believe Zeref to be capable of based on earlier showings and feats.
Wasn't it pof/power of love that allowed Juvia and Gray to resist to kill themselves. However, even with pof, a power that Zeref lacks, they still couldn't resist enough to attack Invel rather than kill themselves. Based on the context of its uses, Ice lock works best as a sneak attack, freezing someone's thoughts and minds while they are not realizing its happening. Hence, I am going with the idea that Invel could only use it against Zeref if he anages to freeze hm for a second, a feat that I imagine Invel to be capable of. Then if Invel immediately uses divine raiment, Zeref would have to resist two haxes at the same time which I don't believe Zeref to be capable of based on earlier showings and feats.
Zeref doesn't lack power of feelings. He has emotions, and those emotions were what fueled his black exploding flame blade. They just happened to be emotions of resentment and hate, which is what Invel refers to as the darkness in his heart. Which is the same thing that Gray uses. Power of feelings isn't limited to love. Natsu's POF last chapter was referred to as savage (or as I read the kanji, fierce). Ice Lock might work as a sneak attack against Zeref. I won't contest this. However, we've never seen it applied in the middle of combat. It wasn't a factor at all in the rematch against Gray. Again, this is a fair match. Both Zeref and Invel would know they were about to fight. As soon as the match starts, both people would try to get the drop on each other. Whoever has the faster reaction speed will probably get the first move.
Zeref doesn't lack power of feelings. He has emotions, and those emotions were what fueled his black exploding flame blade. They just happened to be emotions of resentment and hate, which is what Invel refers to as the darkness in his heart. Which is the same thing that Gray uses. Power of feelings isn't limited to love. Natsu's POF last chapter was referred to as savage (or as I read the kanji, fierce).
Ice Lock might work as a sneak attack against Zeref, but we've never seen it applied in the middle of combat. Again, this is a fair match. Both Zeref and Invel would know they were about to fight. Whoever has the faster reaction speed will probably get the first move.
Fairy Tail has consistently established that power and emotions that arise from love for your friends, or even anger at their deaths, is far stronger than just straight up power of hatred.
In my mind, the fight is over if Invel manages to freeze Zeref long enough to use his haxes on him. Since Zeref's flames have not been shown to be anywhere near as hot as base Natsu's I don't think that Invel freezing Zeref is improbable. I agree that the first move will probably dictate who wins, but there are key differences between Zeref's and Invel's magic that incline me to give Invel the advantage: 1. Invel's freezing is an omnidirectional attack that could freeze multiple things at once. This should allow Invel to freeze incoming attacks while freezing Zeref. 2. Invel's casual freezing seems to require less movement than any of Zeref's attacks. (his hands were behind his back both times the freezing was done implying that it was quite effortless on Invel's part.
Divine ice entering into his body and after that coming out from scratch on his hand.
Gray used the very same thing in sun village. Why in hell we must think that he learn new ability from nothing just bs Invel said that Gray made ice with same attribute? Ofcourse he did. But not by his magic. He never can make ice which is not his ice (I mean with another characteristics). He never been able to make DeS ice against Silver without Silver's ice around him. So why he can now?
If Invel's ice lock would have worked on someone far stronger than himself, then he would have just used it on Gray in their rematch. He didn't. Invel said that Juvia and Gray couldn't possibly deny his orders to kill each other, and that the chains cannot be broken unless one of them dies. Well guess what? Juvia and Gray were both able to disregard Invel's orders to kill each other, and the chains broke before either of them died.
He didn't bs he is a villain. Like others villains didn't do normal things when it must be done. Like I said before, Zeref didn't jump into guild and kill everyone there, so he can't?
Ice lock broke up bs of stupidly PoF. There is a real tournament, no bullshit power.
Divine ice entering into his body and after that coming out from scratch on his hand.
Gray used the very same thing in sun village. Why in hell we must think that he learn new ability from nothing just bs Invel said that Gray made ice with same attribute? Ofcourse he did. But not by his magic. He never can make ice which is not his ice (I mean with another characteristics). He never been able to make DeS ice against Silver without Silver's ice around him. So why he can now?
Yes. But Mavis can make illusion on entire world where Zeref will be happy with family and doesn't know about truth. But it's too offtopic.
Why? She is normal girl, not a conceited Zeref.
He didn't bs he is a villain. Like others villains didn't do normal things when it must be done. Like I side before, Zeref didn't jump into guild and kill everyone there, so he can't?
Ice lock broke up bs of stupidly PoF. There is a real tournament, no bullshit power.
If Gray absorbed the ice into his body, why are there shards flying off into the distance? It doesn't look like Gray absorbed any of the ice on his arm. It looks like they were flying off in the opposite direction. The dialogue also doesn't say anything about Gray consuming the ice. They didn't say he ate it. They didn't say he absorbed it. They said he imitated it with his ice make magic.
When has Mavis shown this (fool Zeref into thinking he's in another world), and why is it relevant? What does conceit have do with whether or not Mavis was using Fairy Heart's power? Zeref simply released Fairy Heart's power. That was just the form Fairy Heart takes when he used its power. In any case, Mavis and the guild decided to never use Fairy Heart during the start of the war.
Correct. Zeref cannot simply jump into the guild and kill everyone. He doesn't have the feats that suggest he's capable of doing that. Natsu alone could keep him occupied in a 1v1 if Zeref decides to jump the guild. Likewise, Invel's ice lock stops being effective against opponents of Gray's level. There are people just as strong as base Gray with POF, and some even stronger. Just because Gray had POF, doesn't mean nobody was stronger than him.
Irene only needs to wave her hand to change Invel, which she can do with the same efficiency as it took for Gray to punch Invel in the face. Irene has shown that she can get the drop on Acnologia. Invel needs to wave his hands to cast ice lock as well.
I am not exactly sure what you are saying, but I'll take a stab at it. Igneel powered Natsu can kill Zeref. DF Natsu can destroy Zeref's body. Natsu with the power of the guild can burn FH Zeref's ability to reverse time. Even assuming that natsu with the power of the guild is the strongest version of Natsu (debatable if Igneel powered Natsu can kill actually kill Zeref), it's still pretty clear that this version of Natsu is not the same as the version that fought Neinhart. Natsu burned his arm to the point where you can almost see the bones on his finger to put down Zeref. The amount of effort in the two attacks is incomparable.
This was the panel right before he finished off Zeref in chapter 536. Zeref is stronger than Mavis. He knows more magic. The fact that he can match Natsu blow for blow puts him on the same level as Gray. Zeref was a match for Igneel powered Natsu when it came to hand to hand combat. That scar on Natsu's face was from Zeref's blasts. Zeref can blast a hole through Larcade, who should be tougher than your average Spriggan 12. How is this not at least Gray level?
ya i think ur not understanding what im saying. im saying how do u know that base natsu couldnt kill zeref with another punch when u takes IG base natsu plus and powerup BDKM natsu more punche to kill zeref who at the the time was tanking his attack (mind u think base zeref not FH zeref) ig natsu isnt defeated fh zeref the way base natsu is. rather he had the power to kill him or not hence the base natsu>ig natsu. ok fair enough i agree that pof nastu can grow stronger so whats the difference if any1 has the POF since it has been the main theme of this manga whta im trying to say is that if natsu can every1 from the guild can but u disagree because it natsu he should only have it because he is the MC. PS it still BS the point is if he hand were broke/burned base natsu>ig natsu.
ya i finally see it but it show up in tenrou too vs hades so ur saying it only works on the main cast???. i know zeref>mavis that isnt the debate they are both immortal is my point u dont have to kill zeref to beat zeref.he know magic but couldnt bring up a decent name spell that could prove his strength?? ya ok.
he doesnt have an offensive feat on par with gray key word offensive feat. going toe to toe with ig natsu remember u said that u cant increase ur durability by simple a power up? oneshoting an injure/exhausted person he hardly a great feat even bisca could blow him away if she had the chance
ya i think ur not understanding what im saying. im saying how do u know that base natsu couldnt kill zeref with another punch when u takes IG base natsu plus and powerup BDKM natsu more punche to kill zeref who at the the time was tanking his attack (mind u think base zeref not FH zeref) ig natsu isnt defeated fh zeref the way base natsu is. rather he had the power to kill him or not hence the base natsu>ig natsu. ok fair enough i agree that pof nastu can grow stronger so whats the difference if any1 has the POF since it has been the main theme of this manga whta im trying to say is that if natsu can every1 from the guild can but u disagree because it natsu he should only have it because he is the MC. PS it still BS the point is if he hand were broke/burned base natsu>ig natsu.
ya i finally see it but it show up vs tenrou to vs hades so ur saying it only works on the main cast???. i know zeref>mavis that isnt the debate they are both immortal is my point u dont have to kill zeref to beat zeref.he know magic but couldnt bring up a decent name spell that could prove his strength?? ya ok.
he doesnt have an offensive feat on par with gray key word offensive feat. going toe to toe with ig natsu remember u said that u cant increase ur durability by simple a power up? oneshoting an injure/exhausted person he hardly a great feat even bisca could blow him away if she had the chance
1) Natsu's arm is in pretty bad shape, so he probably wouldn't be able to throw another punch. We don't know if Natsu has any strength left over after he beat Zeref. Or if it would be powerful enough to kill Zeref. Either way, the effort he put into beating Zeref isn't the same as the effort that went into beating Neinhart, or getting out of Invel's ice. 2) Even if you include power of feelings, you still have to go by feats. Just because you can use POF doesn't mean you have the same feats that Natsu does. Gray's feats with POF isn't the same as Erza's feats with POF, and both aren't the same as Natsu's feats with POF. 3) Zeref was able to go toe to toe with Igneel powered Natsu for a couple of exchanges. The scar on Natsu's face was from Zeref. Compare this fight to END Natsu's fight with Gray. If Zeref can match Natsu's attacks, and Natsu can match Gray's attacks.... Why wouldn't Zeref be at least on Gray's level?
1) Natsu's arm is in pretty bad shape, so he probably wouldn't be able to throw another punch. We don't know if Natsu has any strength left over after he beat Zeref. Or if it would be powerful enough to kill Zeref. Either way, the effort he put into beating Zeref isn't the same as the effort that went into beating Neinhart, or getting out of Invel's ice. 2) Even if you include power of feelings, you still have to go by feats. Just because you can use POF doesn't mean you have the same feats that Natsu does. Gray's feats with POF isn't the same as Erza's feats with POF, and both aren't the same as Natsu's feats with POF. 3) Zeref was able to go toe to toe with Igneel powered Natsu for a couple of exchanges. The scar on Natsu's face was from Zeref. Compare this fight to END Natsu's fight with Gray. If Zeref can match Natsu's attacks, and Natsu can match Gray's attacks.... Why wouldn't Zeref be at least on Gray's level?
1. ok?? doesnt matter are u saying that ig natsu wasnt going all out because his arm wasnt in a bad shape? 2.he has two arms he could have kill with the other if he couldnt use his other hand( but hey its FT we have seen the MCs do the impossible so a damage hand shouldnt stop him from perform the same feat with the same arm) lol he was walking off like it was nothing it wasnt the same version when he used DF plus he has the POF.
2.perosnally i dont think PIS/POF shoud be including because its BS and inconsistent. ok fine then i concede but dont back down on ur logic next round.
3. ya the scar feats just gave him a scar r u saying that feat will one shot invel???? i didnt say that im solo talking about his offensive feat what does he have that is above gray feats? are u saying zeref punches would oneshot some1 gray lvl tier cause thats the only feat he has in this tournament dont forget he is restricted
1. ok?? doesnt matter are u saying that ig natsu wasnt going all out because his arm wasnt in a bad shape? 2.he has two arms he could have kill with the other if he couldnt use his other hand( but hey its FT we have seen the MCs do the impossible so a damage hand shouldnt stop him from perform the same feat with the same arm) lol he was walking off like it was nothing it wasnt the same version when he used DF plus he has the POF.
2.perosnally i dont think PIS/POF shoud be including because its BS and inconsistent. ok fine then i concede but dont back down on ur logic next round.
3. ya the scar feats just gave him a scar r u saying that feat will one shot invel???? i didnt say that im solo talking about his offensive feat what does he have that is above gray feats? are u saying zeref punches would oneshot some1 gray lvl tier cause thats the only feat he has in this tournament dont forget he is restricted
1) We don't actually know if Natsu had any power left over after the last attack this chapter, and that he wasn't about to be throwing punches with his right arm even if he did. Igneel powered Natsu still had power left over for another attack, and was in a good enough condition to use it. 2) I am willing to accept anything that is canon within the manga. Power of feelings is canon within the manga, but even with power of feelings you still have to follow the feats. You can't say Bisca with POF can beat anyone because she has no feats. You can say that Erza with POF can slice apart attacks from August/Irene level opponents though, because that's what she did to deus sema 3) When have I ever said that Zeref is oneshotting someone on Gray's level? I am saying that blast that gave Natsu the scare is at least one the same level as Gray's punches, if not stronger because it did more damage to Natsu. If Zeref uses it against Invel, then Invel would get rocked the same way he got rocked by Gray's punch. I am also saying that the blast that put a hole through Larcade would do the same to Invel. Zeref can blast Invel in the face with the same attack he used against Igneel-powered Natsu, and then blasts him in the chest with the same attack he used against Larcade.
Brahs it's cool to bring up comparisons of other fights to justify your reasons but we can't keep bringing up people that aren't fighting and make it the main convo or point of interest. The convo is becoming more about Natsu than Zeref or Invel. For people picking Invel I think it's more emotional than anything from Zeref's recent performance, can't blame them cause it was not a good look for broski but just ain't no way I'll get to that point I'm taking Invel, that's just me
Wow, I'm surprised that this managed to become the most active discussion of the tournament so far. It looks like Zeref will probably win the poll but I don't really care. If at least a few people can acknowledge Invel's high chances of winning, then I can be happy. I have shared my logic, responded to counterarguments, and based on what we've seen from the two characters it still seems that Invel wins this fight.
Too bad that Fairy Heart is restricted in this tournament because I feel it would greatly boost Zeref's chances against Invel. I think that Fairy Heart Zeref has shown enough to be put above Invel. However, I think it's better that Fairy Heart was restricted because, if not, then the debates would be a lot more one sided and less entertaining imo
[mod=XXEliteXXAceXX]As scheduled, the discussion for Zeref vs Invel is now closed. However, you still can vote until tomorrow (Friday; May 26th, 2017 at 12 PM GMT). Thank you for your participation![/mod]
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