Round of 16 Zeref vs Invel

[Axiomus]

Yeah iced shell definitely emits a lot of power in its beginning stages but the ice isn't exactly iced shell ice until the the users body is turned into it. This seems obvious in the only time we have actually seen iced shell used to completion in chapter 38. If Zeref's flames were as hot as base Natsus he should have been able to attack Gray in the beginning stages of iced shells casting or melt it as easily as base Natsu did until Gray actually started turning his body into ice

But the ice dispelled when Natsu interrupted Gray. I wasn't under the impression that Natsu melted iced shell. I was under the impression that it simply dispelled itself when Gray stopped trying to cast iced shell. Iced Shell doesn't turn the user's body into ice all at once. I think the colour change of the hair implies that the body was beginning to turn to ice. It just doesn't happen all at once. Iced Shell has a rather long cast time.

 

[Invel > Zeref]

But the ice dispelled when Natsu interrupted Gray. I wasn't under the impression that Natsu melted iced shell. I was under the impression that it simply dispelled itself when Gray stopped trying to cast iced shell. Iced Shell doesn't turn the user's body into ice all at once. I think the colour change of the hair implies that the body was beginning to turn to ice. It just doesn't happen all at once. Iced Shell has a rather long cast time.

Then what was the point of Natsu flames being shown going through the entire guild hall? I think Hiro was trying to display that Natsu melted the surrounding ice, a feat that I don't think Natsu could accomplish against true lost iced shell ice outside of ultimate friendship emotion mode.

 

[Axiomus]

Then what was the point of Natsu flames being shown going through the entire guild hall? I think Hiro was trying to display that Natsu melted the surrounding ice, a feat that I don't think Natsu could accomplish against true lost iced shell ice outside of ultimate friendship emotion mode.

Were those Natsu's flames though? I thought it was just steam. If Natsu was using the power of the guild like he was against Zeref, his guild mark would be glowing and he would have probably burned himself.

 

[Seven777]

The ice was from iced shell. Zeref was frozen after Gray crossed his arm and declared he was going to cast iced shell. It would just be confusing it was something else. Also, the ice around the actually dispels when Gray is interrupted from casting iced shell, so that should tell us that it came from the spell. After all, if the ice that was covering Zeref and the guild had nothing to do with Lost Iced Shell, then Natsu interrupting Gray shouldn't have any effect on the ice that was already there.

Spoiler: Lost Iced Shell vs Zeref

Spoiler: Ice dispels as Gray is interrupted

A situation very similar to Zeref's already happened on Galuna Island, when Lyon said that he was surprised Natsu could get close to Gray when he was casting iced shell. This tells us that it's likely that the power that blew Lyon back was iced shell. Even though Gray's body hasn't completely broken down, he was still in the process of casting iced shell. I think the best indicator of when Gray's using iced shell or not is when his hair colour changes from black a lighter colour. You'll notice that the hair colour change was also the point where Gray blew Lyon back to show that he wasn't bluffing about iced shell. The change happens every time Gray casts iced shell, and even happens when Ur casted iced shell.

Spoiler: Lyon commenting on how he was surprised Natsu got near iced shell

Spoiler: What iced shell looked like on Galuna Island

Spoiler: Gray vs Silver's iced shell

Spoiler: Ur vs. Deliora's iced shell

But Natsu DID get close to Gray while he was casting Ice Shell in the Galuna island arc, and he did the same this arc. Which confirms the ice in the initial stages of Ice Shell is significantly weaker than the full version. In fact since Natsu was to Lyon's surprise, for the most part completely unaffected by the early stages of Ice Shell, we can tell that those early stages arent even on par with Lyon's insta-freeze.

 

[Axiomus]

But Natsu DID get close to Gray while he was casting Ice Shell in the Galuna island arc, and he did the same this arc. Which confirms the ice in the initial stages of Ice Shell is significantly weaker than the full version. In fact since Natsu was to Lyon's surprise, for the most part completely unaffected by the early stages of Ice Shell, we can tell that those early stages arent even on par with Lyon's insta-freeze.

Well yeah. I can accept this. The more you break down your body, the more ice is trapping your opponent. I mean obviously Gray didn't break down his entire body by the time Natsu stopped him. I'm just saying it's simpler to just assume that everything that came after Gray crossing his arm and yelling "iced shell" is probably iced shell.

 

[Invel > Zeref]

Well yeah. I can accept this. The more you break down your body, the more ice is trapping your opponent. I mean obviously Gray didn't break down his entire body by the time Natsu stopped him. I'm just saying it's simpler to just assume that everything that came after Gray crossing his arm and yelling "iced shell" is probably iced shell.

Well it's obviously part of the ice shell process but that doesn't mean that the initial ice is of the same quality as the ice created after the body is turned into it.

 

[CaptainTorch]

Well it's obviously part of the ice shell process but that doesn't mean that the initial ice is of the same quality as the ice created after the body is turned into it.

But still, this ice has the "Lost Attribute" property. Which most likely means that this ice is stronger than normal ice. Hell, Gray himself says that it's more than a 100 times stronger than his normal ice. And the only time Gray utilized the "Lost Attribute" is in fact against Zeref. Which does not only showcase that this ice was a lot stronger than before, but also the fact that Gray actually used it from the bat shows that he wouldn't have beaten Zeref normally.

Spoiler

 

[Invel > Zeref]

But still, this ice has the "Lost Attribute" property. Which most likely means that this ice is stronger than normal ice. Hell, Gray himself says that it's more than a 100 times stronger than his normal ice. And the only time Gray utilized the "Lost Attribute" is in fact against Zeref. Which does not only showcase that this ice was a lot stronger than before, but also the fact that Gray actually used it from the bat shows that he wouldn't have beaten Zeref normally.

Again, Gray had to use his lost attribute trump card to have hope of beating Zeref but I don't see how that means that Gray's other types of ice wouldn't work against him or beat him. Gray clearly wasn't in a condition to fight so he immediately went for what he believed to be a sure fire way to bring Zeref down before his friends got hurt and Zeref's plan was enacted. A healthy Gray already believed himself to be capable of taking on Zeref in chapter 495 so it seems more logical to conclude that Gray choosing to use iced shell of the bat was due to circumstance rather the inability of a healthy gray's ice to do damage or freeze him

 

[Axiomus]

Well it's obviously part of the ice shell process but that doesn't mean that the initial ice is of the same quality as the ice created after the body is turned into it.

I don't see why it would be different. The only difference between the completed iced shell and the incomplete iced shell is just the amount of ice covering the target imo.

Again, Gray had to use his lost attribute trump card to have hope of beating Zeref but I don't see how that means that Gray's other types of ice wouldn't work against him or beat him. Gray clearly wasn't in a condition to fight so he immediately went for what he believed to be a sure fire way to bring Zeref down before his friends got hurt and Zeref's plan was enacted. A healthy Gray already believed himself to be capable of taking on Zeref in chapter 495 so it seems more logical to conclude that Gray choosing to use iced shell of the bat was due to circumstance rather the inability of a healthy gray's ice to do damage or freeze him

Gray's confidence for beating Zeref came from his trump card that was foreshadowed in 453. It turns out that the trump card was lost iced shell, or at least the lost attribute. I think the battle with END Natsu was pretty much Gray going all out in terms of his CQC and brawling.

Spoiler: Foreshadowing

 

[Invel > Zeref]

I don't see why it would be different. The only difference between the completed iced shell and the incomplete iced shell is just the amount of ice covering the target imo.

It would be different because incomplete iced shell is mostly just release of power during preparation that doesn't have any of the ice converted from Gray's body

Gray's confidence for beating Zeref came from his trump card that was foreshadowed in 453. It turns out that the trump card was lost iced shell, or at least the lost attribute. I think the battle with END Natsu going all was pretty much Gray going all out in terms of his CQC and brawling. .

Isn't that the same conversation that Gray confidently and happily told Juvia that he would give her an answer after the war? Unless Gray is a sadistic bastard who gets pleasure from giving Juvia hope just to kill himself, it seems obvious that Hiro didn't intend for Gray's trump card to be iced shell until later. The fact that Gray intended to use his 'ace in the hole' for both END and Zeref further reinforces that it was not planned for it to be iced shell at this point in the story. Even in chapter 495, Gray states with a smile "which one of us will take down Zeref first? You in Natsu" Would Gray happily make a bet with Natsu if he believed that killing himself is the only means of taking him down?

 

[Axiomus]

It's also not as if Iced Shell is easier to cast than instant freeze. Iced Shell takes quite a while to set up, and even during its cast you can still be interrupted. Instant freeze only takes Gray the time it takes to wave a hand. Something like Ice-Make: Silver is far easier to cast than Iced Shell. Again, Gray has the ability to imitate the ice from Invel's armour. If Gray could freeze Zeref with a hand wave, and then tag him with the ice from the armour...That would be way easier casting iced shell.

It would be different because incoplete iced shell is mostly just release of power during preparation that doesn't have the ice converted from Gray's body

Isn't that the same conversation that Gray confidently and happily told Juvia that he would give her an answer after the war? Unless Gray is a sadistic bastard who gets pleasure from giving Juvia hope just to kill himself, it seems obvious that Hiro didn't intend for Gray's trump card to be iced shell until later. The fact that Gray intended to use his trump card for both END and Zeref further reinforces that it was not planned for it to be iced shell at this point in the story. Even in chapter 495, Gray states with a smile "which one of us will take down Zeref first? You in Natsu" Would Gray happily make a bet with Natsu if he believed that killing himself is the only means of taking him down?

How does that work? Again, the ice is coming from Gray's body. It's just not fully converted. Iced Shell doesn't happen all at once. It happens over time. Even with Ur, you can see that it takes parts of her over time. Gray simply hadn't gotten around to converting most of his body into ice against Zeref. It should still be the same ice.

Using the lost attribute erases Gray's entire existence, which means both his life and everyone's memory of him. If he uses it, Juvia wouldn't even have a memory of him and she won't be sad. If you want to play the "Hiro's intention" card, it's also obvious that Hiro was never going to have anyone other than Natsu actually defeat Zeref. All the stuff about the trump card is just a way to build up suspense for Gray this arc. Maybe he didn't decide on what that actual trump card was going to be, but does it really matter?

 

[Invel > Zeref]

It's also not as if Iced Shell is easier to cast than instant freeze. Iced Shell takes quite a while to set up, and even during its cast you can still be interrupted. Instant freeze only takes Gray the time it takes to wave a hand. Something like Ice-Make: Silver is far easier to cast than Iced Shell. Again, Gray has the ability to imitate the ice from Invel's armour. If Gray could freeze Zeref with a hand wave, and then tag him with the ice from the armour...That would be way easier casting iced shell.

I don't want to downgrade Gray but Invel actually has better freezing feats than Gray. The fact that Invel managed to make Gray cold makes it safe to assume that Invel's freezing ability surpasses that of Gray so I am not saying that Gray could insta-freeze Zeref as easily as Invel should be able to

 

[Axiomus]

I don't want to downgrade Gray but Invel actually has better freezing feats than Gray. The fact that Invel managed to make Gray cold makes it safe to assume that Invel's freezing ability surpasses that of Gray so I am not saying that Gray could insta-freeze Zeref as easily as Invel should be able to

Maybe in their first encounter, but in their rematch when Gray was pumped up on POF? By then Gray had surpassed Invel. He could imitate Invel's ice and use it to shatter Invel's.

 

[Invel > Zeref]

Maybe in their first encounter, but in their rematch when Gray was pumped up on POF? By then Gray had surpassed Invel. He could imitate Invel's ice and use it to shatter Invel's.

The fact that Gray only managed to beat Invel by using Invel's ice in conjunction with his superior physical strength further reinforces that Invel's ice is stronger than Gray's. Plus I am talking about omnidirectional freezing ability and not physical ice attacks.

 

[Axiomus]

The fact that Gray only managed to beat Invel by using Invel's ice in conjunction with his superior physical strength further reinforces that Invel's ice is stronger than Gray's. Plus I am talking about omnidirectional freezing ability and not physical ice attacks.

Gray can use ice make to imitate the same type of Ice that Invel uses. That's what he used to create the gauntlets. The ice that he creates with ice-make is stronger than Invel's, because his gauntlets shattered Invel's armour. If we're just talking freezing, Gray still has AOE on the level of Ice-Make: Silver. Now that he knows how to copy Invel's ice with ice-make... why can't he just use something similar? Why would Gray have to resort to giving up his life?

Zeref forced Natsu to go all out with Igneel's power, with Dragon Force, and finally with the power of the guild that ended up burning his own arm. He forced Gray to use lost attribute, which sacrifices his existence. Invel wasn't even Gray's main fight in this arc. Gray stomped him in base, and then went on to fight Natsu.

 

[Invel > Zeref]

Gray can use ice make to imitate the same type of Ice that Invel uses. That's what he used to create the gauntlets. The ice that he creates with ice-make is stronger than Invel's, because his gauntlets shattered Invel's armour. If we're just talking freezing, Gray still has AOE on the level of Ice-Make: Silver. Now that he knows how to copy Invel's ice with ice-make... why can't he just use something similar?

I don't like downgrading my favorite character but ice make silver didn't even manage to freeze (or keep frozen) Ajeel. Why would Gray's ability to copy Invel's ice also mean he could copy Invel's freezing ability? Invel managed to create a blizzard across the country or at least on a greater scale than Gray has been shown doing. Invel's freezing presence is enough to make an ice devil slayer feel cold. Even if Gray's ice physical attacks are stronger than Invel's, Invel still has better omnidirectional freezing feats which would allow him to freeze Zeref more easily than Gray could

 

[Tirl]

Gray can use ice make to imitate the same type of Ice that Invel uses. That's what he used to create the gauntlets. The ice that he creates with ice-make is stronger than Invel's, because his gauntlets shattered Invel's armour. If we're just talking freezing, Gray still has AOE on the level of Ice-Make: Silver. Now that he knows how to copy Invel's ice with ice-make... why can't he just use something similar?

1. Gray consumes divine ice and makes it useless for himself.
2. Gray makes ice gauntlets.
3.1. If those gauntlets are just DeS magic, so Gray beats Invel's armor with his strength. I don't see here difficultly to smash ice armor with brute force if this ice is useless.
3.2. If those gauntlets are divine like armor, so Gray... etc.
4.1. Invel loses to brute force. It's fine, he is never show high durability.
4.2. Invel loses to brute force. It's fine, he is never show high durability. But his armor has no effect on him. And not only in Gray's hands, but also and in his armor. So or Invel maked himself immune to divine armor (and this is logically bs he is ice mage), or he is immune to it bs he is already wearing this armor. Anyway Invel can't be frozen by his divine armor. Maybe while he is wearing it, or always.

And Gray never make ice like divine by himself. He just used Invel's armor like he did in sun village. And no, he can't make divine ice without any material in fight with Zeref.

Why are people here thinking that ice lock or freezing don't affect Zeref? Invel used it against Fairy Heart like it was nothing. Zeref stronger than FH?

Why are people thinking Zeref faster than Invel? Invel's magic is instant, he doesn't even need to swipe his hand to freeze everything and use ice lock while Zeref's magic is crawling like Lacarde
Invel's magic can freeze absolutely everything what has no immune or resist to it. And Zeref hasn't. Like his magic hasn't. And it doesn't mean that he can't crash ice out of it. But not instantly. And he can't crash ice lock. Rather he can, but he will not do this under affected by ice lock.


Zeref has only one ability to beat every one in universe including Acnoliga, this is his ability to consume magic (like he did to Mavis), but if he can't beat Acnologia, so this ability is truly trash.


And for every one who say that we use last chapter (which was really fuckng bullshit) - no, we don't. In any case I don't. I said Zeref is trash before, I'm saying it right now, and I will be saying it after all.

 

[Axiomus]

1. Gray consumes divine ice and makes it useless for himself.
2. Gray makes ice gauntlets.
3.1. If those gauntlets are just DeS magic, so Gray beats Invel's armor with his strength. I don't see here difficultly to smash ice armor with brute force if this ice is useless.
3.2. If those gauntlets are divine like armor, so Gray... etc.
4.1. Invel loses to brute force. It's fine, he is never show high durability.
4.2. Invel loses to brute force. It's fine, he is never show high durability. But his armor has no effect on him. And not only in Gray's hands, but also and in his armor. So or Invel maked himself immune to divine armor (and this is logically bs he is ice mage), or he is immune to it bs he is already wearing this armor. Anyway Invel can't be frozen by his divine armor. Maybe while he is wearing it, or always.

And Gray never make ice like divine by himself. He just used Invel's armor like he did in sun village. And no, he can't make divine ice without any material in fight with Zeref.

Why are people here thinking that ice lock or freezing don't affect Zeref? Invel used it against Fairy Heart like it was nothing. Zeref stronger than FH?

Why are people thinking Zeref faster than Invel? Invel's magic is instant, he doesn't even need to swipe his hand to freeze everything and use ice lock while Zeref's magic is crawling like Lacarde
Invel's magic can freeze absolutely everything what has no immune or resist to it. And Zeref hasn't. Like his magic hasn't. And it doesn't mean that he can't crash ice out of it. But not instantly. And he can't crash ice lock. Rather he can, but he will not do this under affected by ice lock.


Zeref has only one ability to beat every one in universe including Acnoliga, this is his ability to consume magic (like he did to Mavis), but if he can't beat Acnologia, so this ability is truly trash.


And for every one who say that we use last chapter (which was really fuckng bullshit) - no, we don't. In any case I don't. I said Zeref is trash before, I'm saying it right now, and I will be saying it after all.

Gray never consumed the divine ice. He merely copied it, used it to create gauntlets, and smashed Invel's armour. At no point where the words consumed used, or was Gray shown eating the ice. Invel didn't say he reformed the ice form his armour. Invel didn't say he ate the ice, or otherwise consumed it. Invel said he imitated the ice. So that's what Gray did.

Spoiler: He's imitating the ice that makes up True-Ice Kamui...with his ice make magic?!!!

Zeref ripped Fairy Heart from Mavis, something which even Irene had difficulty doing. I don't see how this is any less impressive than Invel's ice lock. Not being able to beat Acnologia doesn't make you trash. It's likely nobody can beat Acnologia in direct combat. Acnologia literally has the power to solo the world when it comes to direct combat.

 

[LaGOAT]

Whose giving Zeref feats he doesn't have? Natsu with Power of Feelings isn't above Igneel-powered Natsu. Igneel powered Natsu had the power to kill Zeref, Natsu without Igneel's power doesn't. Even if Natsu with Power of Feelings was above Igneel-powered Natsu, this is still not the same version of Natsu that "fought" (and fought is a generous word here) Invel. No, Natsu wasn't pumped up on POF versus Neinhart. At least, not anywhere near the same extent as he was against Zeref. Natsu burned his own arm fighting Zeref. I think you can actually see the bones on Natsu's fingers. It is absolutely absurd to say this version of Natsu was comparable to the previous versions of Natsu that fought Neinhart, or broke out of Invel's ice.

Spoiler: Natsu's arm

POF is turning emotions into magical power, and not everyone is equally strong with it. Natsu with POF is stronger than everyone else with POF because of his feats are better. Also, the guildmark was glowing right before Natsu used the final attack against Zeref

Spoiler: Guildmark glowing

Natsu broke out of Invel's ice with fairly weak flames. Natsu would break out of it faster with stronger flames, such as when he fought Gray. Zeref is arguably stronger than this version of Natsu.

Spoiler: Gray trapping Natsu in ice, and Natsu breaking out

Gray can copy the ice from the divine raiment for his gauntlet. He used that gauntlet to crush Invel's armour. Right of the bat that should tell us that Gray's ice is stronger. Gray can use the same ice as Invel's divine railment if he wanted to, but he still resorted to lost iced shell. Ice-Make: Impact was never shown to be a particularly fast spell. Rufus reacted to it back during the GMG and Silver reacted to it during Tartarus. Invel only reacted to Zero Longsword after Gray tagged him twice with it. And this was Gray before he thought Juvia died. After Gray was pumped up on POF, Invel was basically a punching bag.

Spoiler: Invel tagged twice by zero longsword

]

Spoiler: Invel tagged twice by zero longsword[/spoiler

lol how??? One punch made him not able to move. He ate ig natsu punches was able to till tanked in base form? In fact natsu had to use BDKM natsu to manage to kill base zeref. Now I'm not saying that ig natsu couldn't beat kill him but if he took base natsu one no name punch to take him down what makes u think he can't kill him with Another punch? Sorry bro base natsu>ig natsu. lol base natsu took 2 punches to be an enchanted neinhart but gets no diff by brandish using her hax magic the same magic that didn't affect nienhart lol oook Guess it wasn't POF just pure natsu strength. POF are POF u can say that it grows stronger over time I could say the same thing with evry1 else. Lol I don't see his guild mark was glowing bro where do u see that at? Also u keep forgetting that zeref is restricted 2. Invel froze mavis (who is also immortal) so why would that be a different case for zeref. 3. Zeref doesn't have any offensive decent feat anyways that is on gray level. 3. As show from other gray was able to freeze zeref be4 casing lost ice shell.

 

[Axiomus]

lol how??? One punch made me not able to move. He ate ig natsu punches was able to till tanked in base form? In fact natsu had to use BDKM natsu to manage to kill base zeref. Now I'm not saying that ig natsu couldn't beat kill him but if he took base natsu one no name punch to take him down what makes u think he can't kill him with Another punch? Sorry bro base natsu>ig natsu. lol base natsu took 2 punches to be an enchanted neinhart but gets no diff by brandish using her hax magic the same magic that didn't affect nienhart lol oook Guess it wasn't POF just pure natsu strength. POF are POF u can say that it grows stronger over time I could say the same thing with evry1 else. Lol I don't see his guild mark was glowing bro where do u see that at? Also u keep forgetting that zeref is restricted 2. Invel froze mavis (who is also immortal) so why would that be a different case for zeref. 3. Zeref doesn't have any offensive decent feat anyways that is on gray level. 3. As show from other gray was able to freeze zeref be4 casing lost ice shell.

I am not exactly sure what you are saying, but I'll take a stab at it. Igneel powered Natsu can kill Zeref. DF Natsu can destroy Zeref's body. Natsu with the power of the guild can burn FH Zeref's ability to reverse time. Even assuming that natsu with the power of the guild is the strongest version of Natsu (debatable if Igneel powered Natsu can kill actually kill Zeref), it's still pretty clear that this version of Natsu is not the same as the version that fought Neinhart. Natsu burned his arm to the point where you can almost see the bones on his finger to put down Zeref. The amount of effort in the two attacks is incomparable.

Spoiler: Natsu's guildmark is glowing right here

This was the panel right before he finished off Zeref in chapter 536. Zeref is stronger than Mavis. He knows more magic. The fact that he can match Natsu blow for blow puts him on the same level as Gray. Zeref was a match for Igneel powered Natsu when it came to hand to hand combat. That scar on Natsu's face was from Zeref's blasts. Zeref can blast a hole through Larcade, who should be tougher than your average Spriggan 12. How is this not at least Gray level?