Round of 16 Zeref vs Invel

[Nemispelled]

I disagree. Looking at people's previous fights helps draw a conclusion. From knowledge Natsu's previous fights I can tell you his moveset, his fighting style, how his battles progress, his magical power, etc. I can tell you a number of things. MMA fighters do this all the time to try and capitalize on an advantage they have over their opponents. It takes this kind of knowledge of a character to make an educated guess on how they'd fair when pit with another character.

Laxus isn't good against well defended opponents like Jura who was able to play pinball with him. Jellal is a glass cannon. August can't copy holder magic. Wall is immune to lightning. Gray is nearly immune to ice. These are important factors when pitting two people against each other because they can be a deciding factor, and the more fights a character has, the bigger sample size we have to reference.

Yeah, looking at people's previous fights does help draw conclusions.

Especially for Zeref, who has shown nothing out of the ordinary for the 536 chapters of this manga.


You can use Natsu vs. Zeref to compare their stats and attributes.

But in a fight, the result of their attacks won't be the same.

Invel just needs to freeze Zeref in Divine Ice and it's over. He's not going to take the same approach as Natsu, who had to physically exhaust Zeref.

 

[M3J]

So, can anyone sum up the Invel vs. Zeref argument? Might change my vote, but otherwise I"m going with Zeref based on hype and some feats... though the main feat that stands out has been banned (his healing).

 

[Axiomus]

I never doubted that Natsu's flames are enough to melt Invel's insta-freeze. But that took some time, which is more than enough for Invel to kill off a defenseless statue.

I'm fairly certain that Gray's ice magic saved him from being frozen. For somebody like Zeref, he would be frozen instantly, especially since he couldn't even break out of Gray's Lost Ice Shell aura.


While it's true that Natsu didn't know where Invel was, the point is that Invel quickly froze Natsu, Lucy, and Juvia.

In a fight with Zeref, the speed at which Zeref gets frozen will still be the same.

Zeref can't tag Invel using CQC because if he touched the Raiment Armor, he would be finished. His blasts is the only thing that he can use.

But Invel is quicker if he just insta-freezes Zeref and tags him with Divine Ice while he's frozen for a few seconds.

It correlates to the effort. If Natsu was actually serious and trying to fight Invel, then he would break Invel's ice the same way he broke Gray's during their fight. Zeref can create black flames that should be at least on par with Natsu's, excluding his Dragon Force or his finisher last chapter.

Are you saying lost iced shell < divine railment? I don't see why that would be the case. I consider Gray's ice to be much stronger than Invel's. Especially considering Gray copied the ice to make his gauntlets, and those gauntlets crushed Invel's armour. Lost iced shell is Gray's trump card.

It takes time for Invel to create his armour. Zeref can hit Invel in the chin with a glare like he did against DF Natsu. Then blast him with the attack that he used against Larcade. Zeref doesn't need to use CQC against Invel, Zeref's blasts are pretty much just as fast as Gray's CQC. Gray can tag Invel with his CQC. I see no reason why Zeref can't land a hit on Invel when Gray can do this.

Spoiler: Gray's punches vs Invel

Spoiler: Zeref glaring at DF Natsu

 

[Invel > Zeref]

It correlates to the effort. If Natsu was actually serious and trying to fight Invel, then he would break Invel's ice the same way he broke Gray's during their fight. Zeref can create black flames that should be at least on par with Natsu's, excluding his Dragon Force or his finisher last chapter.

Are you saying lost iced shell < divine railment? I don't see why that would be the case. I consider Gray's ice to be much stronger than Invel's. Especially considering Gray copied the ice to make his gauntlets, and those gauntlets crushed Invel's armour. Lost iced shell is Gray's trump card.

It takes time for Invel to create his armour. Zeref can hit Invel in the chin with a glare like he did against DF Natsu. Then blast him with the attack that he used against Larcade. Zeref doesn't need to use CQC against Invel, Zeref's blasts are pretty much just as fast as Gray's CQC. Gray can tag Invel with his CQC. I see no reason why Zeref can't land a hit on Invel when Gray can do this.

Spoiler: Gray's punches vs Invel

Spoiler: Zeref glaring at DF Natsu

Zeref can create black flame's that should be on par with Natsu? Zeref's black flames may be able to match Natsu's in sheer power but there is no indication that Zeref's flames are as hot as Natsu's. Using 'he should be able to do this and that because of hype' illustrates the main problem I have with people supporting Zeref. Most of your points seem somewhat logical but using Zeref's feat against an unsuspecting Larcade, the guy who got blitzed by Sting, to prove the speed of Zeref's magic does not make much sense to me. Yes, Gray had to use his trump card to have hope of beating Zeref but I don't see how that means that Gray's other types of ice wouldn't work against him. Gray clearly wasn't in a condition to fight so he immediately went for what he believed to be a sure fire way to bring Zeref down before his friends got hurt

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Zeref wins this battle. No matter how I look at it, Invel winning defies all logic. If every Spriggan were stronger than Zeref (or able to defeat him via hax), then he should have been their subordinate instead of their emperor.

I do want to make one thing clear though. Invel is not a fodder. I don't even see how that conclusion is logically possible (maybe I take your guys' words too literally). He is a solid medium-tier Spriggan in my eyes. Having said that, this is a Medium Difficulty fight. Zeref is at the top of the spectrum and Invel is in the middle.

 

[Invel > Zeref]

Zeref wins this battle. No matter how I look at it, Invel winning defies all logic. If every Spriggan were stronger than Zeref (or able to defeat him via hax), then he should have been their subordinate instead of their emperor.

I do want to make one thing clear though. Invel is not a fodder. I don't even see how that conclusion is logically possible (maybe I take your guys' words too literally). He is a solid medium-tier Spriggan in my eyes. Having said that, this is a Medium Difficulty fight. Zeref is at the top of the spectrum and Invel is in the middle.

No one is arguing that every Spriggan can beat Zeref. I'm arguing that Invel who I consider to be an upper mid-tier Spriggan and whose hax was shown to work on people stronger than him can beat Zeref. Invel doesn't seem like the type of character to follow someone just because of their strength so I don't see how him being Zeref's subordinate makes him weaker than Zeref.

 

[M3J]

Zeref wins this battle. No matter how I look at it, Invel winning defies all logic. If every Spriggan were stronger than Zeref (or able to defeat him via hax), then he should have been their subordinate instead of their emperor.

I do want to make one thing clear though. Invel is not a fodder. I don't even see how that conclusion is logically possible (maybe I take your guys' words too literally). He is a solid medium-tier Spriggan in my eyes. Having said that, this is a Medium Difficulty fight. Zeref is at the top of the spectrum and Invel is in the middle.

How so? Not that I'm defending Invel as I have no idea what puts him above Zeref, but it's just as possible for subordinates to be stronger than their leader and still follow them. Especially when people like Zeref are "charismatic" and have helped them. Look at Irene, she might be stronger than Zeref, but she wouldn't kill Zeref because she believes in him and his plan, especially after he gave her her human form back. August is implied to be stronger than Zeref, but he wouldn't turn on his own dad. Likewise, Invel might be stronger but not hurt Zeref out of loyalty for what Zeref did for him and/or because he fucks with Zeref's plan.

That said and all, I must reiterate that I still don't see how Invel can beat Zeref, unless Zeref lacks the ability to break out of Invel's ice or can't resist it.

 

[Tirl]

If every Spriggan were stronger than Zeref (or able to defeat him via hax), then he should have been their subordinate instead of their emperor.

Fior's king stronger than his army? Master Bob stronger than BB? Any light guild have stronger master than everyone in it? Why in hell emperor must be stronger than his army??

--- Double Post Merged, May 23, 2017, Original Post Date: May 23, 2017 ---

he fucks with Zeref's plan.

 

[LaGOAT]

Fior's king stronger than his army? Master Bob stronger than BB? Any light guild have stronger master than everyone in it? Why in hell emperor must be stronger than his army??

--- Double Post Merged, May 23, 2017, Original Post Date: May 23, 2017 ---

Great counter bro zeref being the leader on his empire doesn't equivalent to power

--- Double Post Merged, May 23, 2017 ---

Even if base Natsu vs. Zeref > IgNatsu, that doesn't mean that base Natsu vs. Invel was stronger than IgNatsu. That's absurd. Natsu was pumped on POF against Zeref. You can even argue that the guild mark glowing counts as a new form. He went all out against Zeref, and burned his arm. This is leagues upon leagues away from the effort he used to break out of Invel's ice.

I am being consistent. All characters have POF, but not all POF is equal. Natsu w/POF > Gray w/POF.

lol I like this. so u called absurd but it's that the same thing when giving zeref feats that he doesn't have and saying that base natsu>ig natsu 2. So natsu wasn't pumped up by POF vs enchanted nienhart??? The guild mark glowing is irrelevant plus didn't show in their fight. So natsu was going all out vs zeref. But wasn't vs invel? Hmm nice logic. ‭ zeref hasn't no doesn't have impressive feats. POF is a plot device to keep the MC/good guys to win. There isn't any equality with that. Give Bisca the POF feats zeref will have a field day trying to beat her. POF is cancerous disease and anyone that has it is an unbeatable force. Rather u like it or not. By ur logic gildartz Doesnt have any POF becuase he hasn't shown it

 

[Nemispelled]

It correlates to the effort. If Natsu was actually serious and trying to fight Invel, then he would break Invel's ice the same way he broke Gray's during their fight. Zeref can create black flames that should be at least on par with Natsu's, excluding his Dragon Force or his finisher last chapter.

Are you saying lost iced shell < divine railment? I don't see why that would be the case. I consider Gray's ice to be much stronger than Invel's. Especially considering Gray copied the ice to make his gauntlets, and those gauntlets crushed Invel's armour. Lost iced shell is Gray's trump card.

It takes time for Invel to create his armour. Zeref can hit Invel in the chin with a glare like he did against DF Natsu. Then blast him with the attack that he used against Larcade. Zeref doesn't need to use CQC against Invel, Zeref's blasts are pretty much just as fast as Gray's CQC. Gray can tag Invel with his CQC. I see no reason why Zeref can't land a hit on Invel when Gray can do this.

Spoiler: Gray's punches vs Invel

Spoiler: Zeref glaring at DF Natsu

If it took time for Natsu to break out of Invel's ice, then it would take Zeref at least the same amount of time. That's more than enough time for Invel to crush Zeref's statue or tag him with Divine Ice.

Invel's Raiment is directly on par with Gray's Lost Iced Shell. His Divine Ice causes his opponents to be frozen for eternity, much the same way that Iced Shell works.

Gray could only crush Invel's Raiment Armor because he copied the ice. His own ice is actually weaker since Invel uses Divine Ice, which is tiers above regular ice.


Invel's insta-freeze is faster than Gray's punches or Zeref's blasts.

Once Zeref is temporarily frozen, Invel can kill Zeref on the spot, or he can activate his armor.

He'll have enough time to do that because Zeref will be frozen for at least as long as Natsu was.

Plus, Zeref only hit Larcade with his blast because the dude was crawling on the ground begging for his life. Invel could easily dodge a single blast if he could react to this:

Spoiler: Invel blocking Ice Impact

Spoiler: Invel blocking Ice Devil's Zeroth Long Sword

 

[darkprince0521]

Fior's king stronger than his army? Master Bob stronger than BB? Any light guild have stronger master than everyone in it? Why in hell emperor must be stronger than his army??

--- Double Post Merged, May 23, 2017, Original Post Date: May 23, 2017 ---

Hmm.... Zeref did not inherit the Kingdom, he formed it. By collecting powerful subordinates who are willing to work for him. Just being the son of Zeref ensured that August is immensely powerful. That must be an indicator of Zeref's strength.

Forgive me for bringing One Piece reference. But, think about the world nobles who are the highest facilitated individuals and has authority over everyone. Almost all of them are extremely weak when comparing with even the manga civilians. Then we also have Whitebeard who was the leader of a force equal to the power of World Government. Think Zeref being the king more in line with Whitebeard than the world nobles. Then you will realize why Fiore king is not strong and why Zeref is strong.

 

[Axiomus]

lol I like this. so u called absurd but it's that the same thing when giving zeref feats that he doesn't have and saying that base natsu>ig natsu. 2. So natsu wasn't pumped up by POF vs enchanted nienhart??? The guild mark glowing is irrelevant plus didn't show in their fight. So natsu was going all out vs zeref. But wasn't vs invel? Hmm nice logic. ‭ zeref hasn't no doesn't have impressive feats. POF is a plot device to keep the MC/good guys to win. There isn't any equality with that. Give Bisca the POF feats zeref will have a field day trying to beat her. POF is cancerous disease and anyone that has it is an unbeatable force. Rather u like it or not. By ur logic gildartz Doesnt have any POF becuase he hasn't shown it

Whose giving Zeref feats he doesn't have? Natsu with Power of Feelings isn't above Igneel-powered Natsu. Igneel powered Natsu had the power to kill Zeref, Natsu without Igneel's power doesn't. Even if Natsu with Power of Feelings was above Igneel-powered Natsu, this is still not the same version of Natsu that "fought" (and fought is a generous word here) Invel. No, Natsu wasn't pumped up on POF versus Neinhart. At least, not anywhere near the same extent as he was against Zeref. Natsu burned his own arm fighting Zeref. I think you can actually see the bones on Natsu's fingers. It is absolutely absurd to say this version of Natsu was comparable to the previous versions of Natsu that fought Neinhart, or broke out of Invel's ice.

Spoiler: Natsu's arm

POF is turning emotions into magical power, and not everyone is equally strong with it. Natsu with POF is stronger than everyone else with POF because of his feats are better. Also, the guildmark was glowing right before Natsu used the final attack against Zeref

Spoiler: Guildmark glowing

If it took time for Natsu to break out of Invel's ice, then it would take Zeref at least the same amount of time. That's more than enough time for Invel to crush Zeref's statue or tag him with Divine Ice.

Invel's Raiment is directly on par with Gray's Lost Iced Shell. His Divine Ice causes his opponents to be frozen for eternity, much the same way that Iced Shell works.

Gray could only crush Invel's Raiment Armor because he copied the ice. His own ice is actually weaker since Invel uses Divine Ice, which is tiers above regular ice.


Invel's insta-freeze is faster than Gray's punches or Zeref's blasts.

Once Zeref is temporarily frozen, Invel can kill Zeref on the spot, or he can activate his armor.

He'll have enough time to do that because Zeref will be frozen for at least as long as Natsu was.

Plus, Zeref only hit Larcade with his blast because the dude was crawling on the ground begging for his life. Invel could easily dodge a single blast if he could react to this:

Spoiler: Invel blocking Ice Impact

Spoiler: Invel blocking Ice Devil's Zeroth Long Sword

Natsu broke out of Invel's ice with fairly weak flames. Natsu would break out of it faster with stronger flames, such as when he fought Gray. Zeref is arguably stronger than this version of Natsu.

Spoiler: Gray trapping Natsu in ice, and Natsu breaking out

Gray can copy the ice from the divine raiment for his gauntlet. He used that gauntlet to crush Invel's armour. Right of the bat that should tell us that Gray's ice is stronger. Gray can use the same ice as Invel's divine railment if he wanted to, but he still resorted to lost iced shell. Ice-Make: Impact was never shown to be a particularly fast spell. Rufus reacted to it back during the GMG and Silver reacted to it during Tartarus. Invel only reacted to Zero Longsword after Gray tagged him twice with it. And this was Gray before he thought Juvia died. After Gray was pumped up on POF, Invel was basically a punching bag.

Spoiler: Invel tagged twice by zero longsword

Spoiler: Gray landed 3 hits before Invel tried to use divine railment

Spoiler: Gray landed 5 more hits after Invel tried to use divine railment

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

No one is arguing that every Spriggan can beat Zeref. I'm arguing that Invel who I consider to be an upper mid-tier Spriggan and whose hax was shown to work on people stronger than him can beat Zeref. Invel doesn't seem like the type of character to follow someone just because of their strength so I don't see how him being Zeref's subordinate makes him weaker than Zeref.

When has Invel's hax ever worked on somebody stronger than him? Base Natsu, at best, is on the level of a Medium-Tier Spriggan.

How so? Not that I'm defending Invel as I have no idea what puts him above Zeref, but it's just as possible for subordinates to be stronger than their leader and still follow them. Especially when people like Zeref are "charismatic" and have helped them. Look at Irene, she might be stronger than Zeref, but she wouldn't kill Zeref because she believes in him and his plan, especially after he gave her her human form back. August is implied to be stronger than Zeref, but he wouldn't turn on his own dad. Likewise, Invel might be stronger but not hurt Zeref out of loyalty for what Zeref did for him and/or because he fucks with Zeref's plan.

That said and all, I must reiterate that I still don't see how Invel can beat Zeref, unless Zeref lacks the ability to break out of Invel's ice or can't resist it.

I never said it was impossible for subordinates to be stronger than their leader. But is it likely? No. And in this case, it couldn't be any more obvious. The Spriggans are inferior to Zeref. August even admitted his inferiority when he said only Zeref with Fairy Heart could beat Acnologia. If August himself was stronger, don't you think he should have been the one to use FH?

Spoiler

Fior's king stronger than his army? Master Bob stronger than BB? Any light guild have stronger master than everyone in it? Why in hell emperor must be stronger than his army??

It doesn't have to be. But lets use a comparison that is more applicable here which are the main villains of every arc. Tell me if you see a consistent pattern in power between the bosses and their 'subordinates':

1. Jose Porla > Elemental Four
2. Jellal > Trinity Raven
3. Laxus > Thunder Legion
4. Zero > Oración Seis
5. Hades > Seven Kin of Purgatory
6. Mard Geer > Nine Demon Gates
7. Zeref < Spriggan 12??????

Anyways, their status isn't the only reason why Zeref wins this. I didn't add more to my post because there is nothing more to add. This is why I am very much against the ignorance of portrayal, especially when feats are also in support of it.

EDIT: Thank you @darkprince0521. You brought up a very good point that I had forgotten about.

 

[Arjuna]

I agree with @XXEliteXXAceXX .August and Irene themselves admitted their inferiority by saying that they can't defeat Acnologia even if they get FH.But only Zeref can.And i hope no one will say Invel>August.That is the best evidence here.


And August and Irene's statement is the most truthful about their own strength here.They can best judge their own strength in respect to Zeref.

 

[Seven777]

I agree with @XXEliteXXAceXX .August and Irene themselves admitted their inferiority by saying that they can't defeat Acnologia even if they get FH.But only Zeref can.And i hope no one will say Invel>August.That is the best evidence here.


And August and Irene's statement is the most truthful about their own strength here.They can best judge their own strength in respect to Zeref.

They didnt admit anything of the sort, all they admitted was that Zeref can use Fairy Heart better than they can, likely because without immortality Acnologia would slaughter them before they could get any use out of it.
EIleen and August are leaps and bounds ahead of Zeref in both combat skill and magic power.

Zeref's only decent feat is against IgNatsu, and even then its mostly just him getting his ass beaten. Durability is Zeref's only advantage over regular spriggans, as a combatant even Gray should be superior.

Jose Porla > Elemental Four

1. Jellal > Trinity Raven
2. Laxus > Thunder Legion
3. Zero > Oración Seis
4. Hades > Seven Kin of Purgatory
5. Mard Geer > Nine Demon Gates
6. Zeref < Spriggan 12??????

Anyways, their status isn't the only reason why Zeref wins this. I didn't add more to my post because there is nothing more to add. This is why I am very much against the ignorance of portrayal, especially when feats are also in support of it.

EDIT: Thank you @darkprince0521. You brought up a very good point that I had forgotten about.

Zeref's "hype" as the final villain is as valid as END's, and thats exactly where i would rank him. Zeref was this arc, on par with END(or perhaps below since END is hyped to kill him), the guy who couldnt even put down critically injured Gray.
Invel is a weakling and i wouldnt give him the win over most spriggans, but with Ice Lock beating Zeref is doable if he can catch him off guard(a fairly likely scenario given Zeref's poor combat awareness)

 

[Solitrine]

I agree with @XXEliteXXAceXX .August and Irene themselves admitted their inferiority by saying that they can't defeat Acnologia even if they get FH.But only Zeref can.And i hope no one will say Invel>August.That is the best evidence here.


And August and Irene's statement is the most truthful about their own strength here.They can best judge their own strength in respect to Zeref.

While I agree that Zeref is substantially stronger than Invel, the Zeref and August comparison isn't actually any evidence considering what we know now. Zeref wanted to use Fairy Heart to go back in time to kill Acno before he became a DS. Zeref was never going to overpower Acnologia with FH because as we know it is impossible to beat Acnologia with magic.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Zeref's "hype" as the final villain is as valid as END's, and thats exactly where i would rank him. Zeref was this arc, on par with END(or perhaps below since END is hyped to kill him), the guy who couldnt even put down critically injured Gray.
Invel is a weakling and i wouldnt give him the win over most spriggans, but with Ice Lock beating Zeref is doable if he can catch him off guard(a fairly likely scenario given Zeref's poor combat awareness)

The same E.N.D destroyed Dimaria and even negated Age Seal. If Zeref is at that level, he should be able to beat Invel with the same amount of difficulty.

Anyways, Zeref already has feats of tanking an attack from Igneel-Powered Natsu. That should not be ignored. I understand the amount of atrocity that happened last chapter. That is why I don't care to bring it up. But to say Zeref even has a chance at losing this fight is as bad as saying Erza has a decent chance at beating August. Just my opinion though.

 

[M3J]

August even admitted his inferiority when he said only Zeref with Fairy Heart could beat Acnologia. If August himself was stronger, don't you think he should have been the one to use FH?

But that's the thing, August said Zeref with Fairy Heart is the only person that can stand a chance against Acnologia. He never said it's because Zeref was stronger; for all we know August blindly believes Zeref should have Fairy Heart, and that with it he can take on Acnologia, even if August himself is stronger. Sign of respect and deference, unless August outright states that "base" Zeref > August. Besides which, if Natsu can't beat Acnologia then this indicates Acnologia > FH Zeref.

Though, I do think Zeref could break out of Invel's ice quickly enough. But I'm going by hype here.

 

[Arjuna]

They didnt admit anything of the sort, all they admitted was that Zeref can use Fairy Heart better than they can, likely because without immortality Acnologia would slaughter them before they could get any use out of it.
EIleen and August are leaps and bounds ahead of Zeref in both combat skill and magic power.

Zeref's only decent feat is against IgNatsu, and even then its mostly just him getting his ass beaten. Durability is Zeref's only advantage over regular spriggans, as a combatant even Gray should be superior.



Zeref's "hype" as the final villain is as valid as END's, and thats exactly where i would rank him. Zeref was this arc, on par with END(or perhaps below since END is hyped to kill him), the guy who couldnt even put down critically injured Gray.
Invel is a weakling and i wouldnt give him the win over most spriggans, but with Ice Lock beating Zeref is doable if he can catch him off guard(a fairly likely scenario given Zeref's poor combat awareness)

Well clearly August says the different.

Spoiler

"He is not an opponent we can hope to defeat.However if his Majesty were to obtain FH...That may no longer be the case".


However you want to twist or distort this statement this is admitted by August.And as it is after Chapter 533 we get to know FH gives you power to control Time and Dimension.So your statement on immortality doesn't fit here as when you can re-create your body from molecular level destruction you don't need immortality.

While I agree that Zeref is substantially stronger than Invel, the Zeref and August comparison isn't actually any evidence considering what we know now. Zeref wanted to use Fairy Heart to go back in time to kill Acno before he became a DS. Zeref was never going to overpower Acnologia with FH because as we know it is impossible to beat Acnologia with magic.

But the main thing is August and Irene didn't know that Zeref was planning to go to past and erase this timeline.They made their statements on the idea that Zeref would get FH and fight Acnologia in this timeline.

 

[Seven777]

The same E.N.D destroyed Dimaria and even negated Age Seal. If Zeref is at that level, he should be able to beat Invel with the same amount of difficulty.

Anyways, Zeref already has feats of tanking an attack from Igneel-Powered Natsu. That should not be ignored. I understand the amount of atrocity that happened last chapter. That is why I don't care to bring it up. But to say Zeref even has a chance at losing this fight is as bad as saying Erza has a decent chance at beating August. Just my opinion though.

I agree and he should be able to destroy Invel just as easily as END beat Dims, however END was immune to Age Seal, while even FH Zeref wont be immune to Ice Slave(as Mavis has shown).

Sure, Zeref has the feats for tanking attacks from IgNatsu, which is nothing to sneeze at, but i'm not saying Invel has the offensive power to actually do any real damage to him. However with Ice Lock and Insta-Freeze damaging Zeref is unnecessary, which imo is why Invel has a better chance at beating Zeref than most. If Zeref treats Invel the same way he treated Natsu or Gray when they confronted him, there is a fairly good chance that Invel could Insta-Freeze and Ice Lock him before he even knows what happened.

--- Double Post Merged, May 23, 2017, Original Post Date: May 23, 2017 ---

Well clearly August says the different.

Spoiler

"He is not an opponent we can hope to defeat.However if his Majesty were to obtain FH...That may no longer be the case".


However you want to twist or distort this statement this is admitted by August.And as it is after Chapter 533 we get to know FH gives you power to control Time and Dimension.So your statement on immortality doesn't fit here as when you can re-create your body from molecular level destruction you don't need immortality.


But the main thing is August and Irene didn't know that Zeref was planning to go to past and erase this timeline.They made their statements on the idea that Zeref would get FH and fight Acnologia in this timeline.

Dont need to twist anything, because August didnt say Zeref was stronger than him. The only thing August said was that Zeref with FH stands a chance at beating Acnoloiga, while August without FH doesnt.

Can you manipulate time if you're dead? My statement about immortality seems to fit pretty well since even if August could manipulate time, what good would it do him if he's too dead to do it? Not something Zeref needs to worry about since he cant die, even while vaporized.