Round of 16 Zeref vs Invel

[Enima]

Nothing is impressive about Invel's hax, i have most FT fighters breaking out of his Ice and most FT fighters being too fast for Ice Slave.
But i also have most FT fighters as actually competent fighters, warriors even, while i have Zeref as more of a wizard(the old fashion kind). That initial blast that smashed Gray into the wall? Would easily do the same to Zeref imo, and Ice Armor would easily freeze him in CQC.
My point is that all Invel needs to do is catch Zeref off guard and he wins with Ice Lock, and catching Zeref off guard is imo, easier than most spriggans and FT top tiers.
Look how easily Gray froze him with incomplete Ice Shell, the spell had yet to use Gray's body or memories and Zeref was still completely immobilized, unable to retaliate

The attack Zeref used on Makarov is as likely to work as Invel insta-freezing Zeref and then Ice Locking him at the very start of the fight imo

I think Iced shell Immobilizes the enemy from the beginning. It takes a long time to cast so it's like a fail safe stopping the opponent from attacking the caster. And also it was Lost iced shell, 100 times more powerful than the regular iced shell.

The first arcs of the series establish that different forms of fire magic have different qualities. So just because Zeref's black flames may be able to match Natsu in sheer power, that doesn't mean it also generates enough heat to melt Invel's ice. I believe that heat and not just explosive power is what helped Natsu melt Invel's ice and Zeref's black flames don't seem to generate a lot of heat. Plus we have no means of comparing partial END's flames with Zeref's anyway. Invel made his presence known before freezing Natsu by freezing his attacks first. Natsu tried to burn away the cold, realizes he's getting frozen, yet he couldn't do anything to prevent that. That was just a casual Invel who didn't think any of them where a threat. Unless they start the fight right next to each other I see Invel freezing Zeref's black flames and Zeref just long enough (Only a couple seconds) to ice lock him. Then he uses divine raiment to ensure victory. I doubt that Zeref can counter one of Invel's hax's but two at the same time? Nah

They never realized they was getting frozen. And didn't Natsu openly say that he was saving his power for zeref when he fought against one of Ajeel's underlings, so it wasn't a serious Natsu either. Invel difinately didn't think Natsu wasn't a threat

Spoiler

Guys hype does matter to an extent. Luffy one shotted a sea king that took Shanks' arm, so luffy's more powerful than a yonko since shanks doesn't really have any feats, oh and how about kaido?. If Natsu was the only one who could melt Invel's Ice wouldn't they have just sent Irene and August to fight Natsu and Gray while Invel Freezes everyone else? That makes sense right? I've never seen Gildarts, Laxus or Erza make any flames or Ice.

The spriggan 12 chose Zeref as their leader because he was charismatic? or because of his excellent leadership skills? NO, Irene definately doesn't look like a person who would take orders from a mage weaker than her. The strongest female spriggan called Zeref a genius, did she say that out of sympathy?.

Spoiler

Why would Invel say that if Zeref was weaker than him?

 

[Doughboy]

Still gotta take Zeref, disappointing performance or not. Invel is a glass cannon, no hand to hand combat shown, even Brandish was shown to have close quarters. What can you do

 

[Invel > Zeref]

Still gotta take Zeref, disappointing performance or not. Invel is a glass cannon, no hand to hand combat shown, even Brandish was shown to have close quarters. What can you do

I agree that Invel isn't impressive in hand to hand combat but how is he a glass cannon? He tanked an attack from devil slayer Gray and when enraged Gray punched him several times and hit him with destruction fist, Invel still managed to stay conscious. Those are better durability feats than most spriggan

--- Double Post Merged, May 24, 2017, Original Post Date: May 24, 2017 ---

They never realized they was getting frozen.

Natsu did. He even expressed surprise at what was happening to his body right before it happened.

If Natsu was the only one who could melt Invel's Ice wouldn't they have just sent Irene and August to fight Natsu and Gray while Invel Freezes everyone else? That makes sense right? I've never seen Gildarts, Laxus or Erza make any flames or Ice.

It also makes sense for Zeref to have August copy Dimaria's time stop to defeat everyone. Strategic thinking clearly doesn't exist in Alvarez kingdom

The spriggan 12 chose Zeref as their leader because he was charismatic? or because of his excellent leadership skills? NO, Irene definately doesn't look like a person who would take orders from a mage weaker than her. The strongest female spriggan called Zeref a genius, did she say that out of sympathy?.

There is no indication that Invel follows Zeref because of Zeref's superior strength nor does Invel seem like the type of character to do that

Why would Invel say that if Zeref was weaker than him?

Invel just didn't want his king to dirty his hands if unnecessary. That has nothing to do with Zeref's strength.

 

[Doughboy]

Why are people making accounts for the tournament first of all? Lol just had to ask. To answer your question in my opinion Invel was pretty much straight the entire time until he got beat down by Gray's DeSM fists and it wasn't the greatest look for him. Brandish, and I'm serious, has better endurance and durability than Invel, but it's nothing like a colossal difference or anything. Dimaria swiped, I mean basically shanked her ass which she couldn't defend against at all... and she was conscious without healing herself. Invel directly took Gray face on. It makes sense, you know? Regardless besides the top 3 all the other 12s are really regarded around the same level.

 

[Invel > Zeref]

Brandish, and I'm serious, has better endurance and durability than Invel, but it's nothing like a colossal difference or anything.

Don't want to go too off topic but I have to disagree here. Brandish tanked attacks from Lucy but Invel dealt with a much more powerful opponent. Call it a fluke but the fact is that Brandish got one shotted by Cana. Plus I have Gray's destruction fist as being more powerful than Dimaria's casual knife swipe.

 

[Enima]

Natsu did. He even expressed surprise at what was happening to his body right before it happened.

It also makes sense for Zeref to have August copy Dimaria's time stop to defeat everyone. Strategic thinking clearly doesn't exist in Alvarez kingdom

There is no indication that Invel follows Zeref because of Zeref's superior strength nor does Invel seem like the type of character to do that

Invel just didn't want his king to dirty his hands if unnecessary. That has nothing to do with Zeref's strength.

So if Natsu realised he was being frozen does that mean Invel's Insta-freeze isn't really Instantaneous. The magic used by Zeref against Makarov was instantaneous and Makarov was helpless. So in a battle, Invel's non instantaneous insta-freeze wouldn't be useful against Zeref's spell.

 

[Invel > Zeref]

So if Natsu realised he was being frozen does that mean Invel's Insta-freeze isn't really Instantaneous. The magic used by Zeref against Makarov was instantaneous and Makarov was helpless. So in a battle, Invel's non instantaneous insta-freeze wouldn't be useful against Zeref's spell.

I will admit that when Invel has been shown freezing people, there was a split second for them to realize that its happening but still unable to prevent it. However, Invel could effortlessly freeze several things simultaneously which should allow him to freeze incoming attacks until that split second passes and his target is successfully frozen. I don't think that we could assume that attack was instantaneous just because Makarov couldn't react to it.

 

[Gaggen]

look its obvious zeref would win based on his immortality and his enchanting skills. if irene can turn princess into a mouse, nothing is stopping zeref to turn invel into a hamster or an ant to step on him. yeah this just struck me why didnt zeref enchant natsu into an insect so he would have kill him easily... And since when it was stated END is weaker than df, END was the strongest mode natsu had and zeref indirectly stated that. he said it end couldnt do shit to him, nothing else can kill him anymore. according to zeref's logic END was natsu's most legit mode to kill him. if dragon force was stronger, why revive him with demonic powers. he could have just handed him over to igneel to train him harder.....And dont forget when gray and natsu fought, both were at the peak of their nakama. So dont degrade invel just because he lost to griveously wounded nakama gray. because even zeref lost to nakama natsu

 

[Enima]

Spoiler

It was instantaneous.

Look at it this way. Invel's only legitimate battle was against Gray and the biggest damage done to gray was done by Gray himself. When it comes to durability Zeref fought with FDKM Natsu (basically a dragon) and said he was disappointed, It took gray 5 hits to beat Invel and 4 of them were normal punches. I just showed you Zeref's speed. Offensive wise Zeref made a hole in Larcade's body effortlessly when Larcade was capable of blocking Kagura's sword with a finger.

Spoiler

Kagura's sword did that.

So.... yeah Zeref's got this one.

 

[Invel > Zeref]

Spoiler

It was instantaneous.

Look at it this way. Invel's only legitimate battle was against Gray and the biggest damage done to gray was done by Gray himself. When it comes to durability Zeref fought with FDKM Natsu (basically a dragon) and said he was disappointed, It took gray 5 hits to beat Invel and 4 of them were normal punches. I just showed you Zeref's speed. Offensive wise Zeref made a hole in Larcade's body effortlessly when Larcade was capable of blocking Kagura's sword with a finger.

Spoiler

Kagura's sword did that.

So.... yeah Zeref's got this one.

I still don't see that as instantaneous. All I see is Zeref producing an attack by swiping his hand and Makorov being too slow to react. Freezing isn't an attack you can avoid with sheer durability so I don't see Zeref's durability feats as relevant. Why is making a hole in an injured unsuspecting Larcade considered impressive? Brandish managed to put a hole in an unsuspecting August with a simple blade. Only difference is that August healed afterwards because he is much more powerful than Larcade.

 

[Enima]

I still don't see that as instantaneous. All I see is Zeref producing an attack by swiping his hand and Makorov being too slow to react. Freezing isn't an attack you can avoid with sheer durability so I don't see Zeref's durability feats as relevant. Why is making a hole in an injured unsuspecting Larcade considered impressive? Brandish managed to put a hole in an unsuspecting August with a simple blade. Only difference is that August healed afterwards because he is much more powerful than Larcade.

Instantaneous means done Instantly right?. As you mentioned Invel's Ice took time to freeze Natsu & co but Zeref's magic worked the moment he wanted it to. He swings his hand and Makarov was trapped Instantly.

 

[Brandish μ]

Yea Invel is basically a scrub physically. I put him in the same class as Neinhart and Brandish tbh (for this).

 

[Invel > Zeref]

Instantaneous means done Instantly right?. As you mentioned Invel's Ice took time to freeze Natsu & co but Zeref's magic worked the moment he wanted it to. He swings his hand and Makarov was trapped Instantly.

I thought by instant attacks you meant attacks that are impossible to dodge without instantaneous teleportation. But going by your definition of instant attacks then that means that the ice attacks Invel used to harm Gray in 497 are also instantaneous.

 

[Seven777]

I think Iced shell Immobilizes the enemy from the beginning. It takes a long time to cast so it's like a fail safe stopping the opponent from attacking the caster. And also it was Lost iced shell, 100 times more powerful than the regular iced shell.


They never realized they was getting frozen. And didn't Natsu openly say that he was saving his power for zeref when he fought against one of Ajeel's underlings, so it wasn't a serious Natsu either. Invel difinately didn't think Natsu wasn't a threat

Spoiler

Guys hype does matter to an extent. Luffy one shotted a sea king that took Shanks' arm, so luffy's more powerful than a yonko since shanks doesn't really have any feats, oh and how about kaido?. If Natsu was the only one who could melt Invel's Ice wouldn't they have just sent Irene and August to fight Natsu and Gray while Invel Freezes everyone else? That makes sense right? I've never seen Gildarts, Laxus or Erza make any flames or Ice.

The spriggan 12 chose Zeref as their leader because he was charismatic? or because of his excellent leadership skills? NO, Irene definately doesn't look like a person who would take orders from a mage weaker than her. The strongest female spriggan called Zeref a genius, did she say that out of sympathy?.

Spoiler

Why would Invel say that if Zeref was weaker than him?

Makes sense.
What makes Lost Ice Shell super powerful is the fact that it sacrifices the body of its caster and everyones memories of them, which had yet to happen. Zeref was frozen by Gray's normal, non-body/memory ice.

 

[Invel > Zeref]

Makes sense.
What makes Lost Ice Shell super powerful is the fact that it sacrifices the body of its caster and everyones memories of them, which had yet to happen. Zeref was frozen by Gray's normal, non-body/memory ice.

You're right. It was Gray's normal ice that managed to freeze parts of, immobilize, and temporarily overwhelm Zeref. That explains why Natsu managed to melt it easily and why none of Gray's body had been turned to ice despite parts of Zeref's body getting frozen

 

[Raven]

Natsu managed to defeat FH Zeref and ppl wondering how he could stop ice shell? Ice shell at this point won't work on Natsu.

Zeref flames can melt Invel ice easily even without using flames he can snare Invel like that and defeat him. Here Natsu was forced to enter DF to over come it, Invel can't do that.

Spoiler

 

[MonkeyD-Dragon]

OMG! I just realized I like Invel more than Zeref
I guess I like White hair more than Black hair

Spoiler

Invel is so cool!!!
I'll vote Invel, sorry Zeref, if you had FH you'd have white hair, but you don't
And look what Invel did to Fairy Heart

Spoiler: omg so cool

Spoiler

And he did this to everyone's favorite Dragonslayer

Spoiler: blue natsu

which is why I think Invel wins against Zeref

 

[Invel > Zeref]

Natsu managed to defeat FH Zeref and ppl wondering how he could stop ice shell? Ice shell at this point won't work on Natsu.

Zeref flames can melt Invel ice easily even without using flames he can snare Invel like that and defeat him. Here Natsu was forced to enter DF to over come it, Invel can't do that.

Spoiler

The Natsu that managed to beat Zeref isn't the same Natsu in chapter 523. Different levels of pof mean different levels of power. Otherwise Natsu would have one shot Zeref in the beginning of the fight. If anything, that was pre-ice shell ice because Gray's body hadn't been turned into ice. The fact that base Natsu's flames managed to melt ice that Zeref was completely overwhelmed by is sufficient evidence to conclude that base Natsu's flames are much hotter. Hence, we can't say that Zeref is able to melt Invel's ice quicker than base Natsu was able to. Plus Invel's ice is omnidirectional and relatively effortless so it should be able to freeze and shatter Zeref's restraining magic before it wraps around him.

 

[Axiomus]

The ice was from iced shell. Zeref was frozen after Gray crossed his arm and declared he was going to cast iced shell. It would just be confusing it was something else. Also, the ice around the actually dispels when Gray is interrupted from casting iced shell, so that should tell us that it came from the spell. After all, if the ice that was covering Zeref and the guild had nothing to do with Lost Iced Shell, then Natsu interrupting Gray shouldn't have any effect on the ice that was already there.

Spoiler: Lost Iced Shell vs Zeref

Spoiler: Ice dispels as Gray is interrupted

A situation very similar to Zeref's already happened on Galuna Island, when Lyon said that he was surprised Natsu could get close to Gray when he was casting iced shell. This tells us that it's likely that the power that blew Lyon back was iced shell. Even though Gray's body hasn't completely broken down, he was still in the process of casting iced shell. I think the best indicator of when Gray's using iced shell or not is when his hair colour changes from black a lighter colour. You'll notice that the hair colour change was also the point where Gray blew Lyon back to show that he wasn't bluffing about iced shell. The change happens every time Gray casts iced shell, and even happens when Ur casted iced shell.

Spoiler: Lyon commenting on how he was surprised Natsu got near iced shell

Spoiler: What iced shell looked like on Galuna Island

Spoiler: Gray vs Silver's iced shell

Spoiler: Ur vs. Deliora's iced shell

 

[Invel > Zeref]

The ice was from iced shell. Zeref was frozen after Gray crossed his arm and declared he was going to cast iced shell. It would just be confusing it was something else. Also, the ice around the actually dispels when Gray is interrupted from casting iced shell, so that should tell us that it came from the spell. After all, if the ice that was covering Zeref and the guild had nothing to do with Lost Iced Shell, then Natsu interrupting Gray shouldn't have any effect on the ice that was already there.

Spoiler: Lost Iced Shell vs Zeref

Spoiler: Ice dispels as Gray is interrupted

A situation very similar to Zeref's already happened on Galuna Island, when Lyon said that he was surprised Natsu could get close to Gray when he was casting iced shell. This tells us that it's likely that the power that blew Lyon back was iced shell. Even though Gray's body hasn't completely broken down, he was still in the process of casting iced shell. I think the best indicator of when Gray's using iced shell or not is when his hair colour changes from black a lighter colour. You'll notice that the hair colour change was also the point where Gray blew Lyon back to show that he wasn't bluffing about iced shell. The change happens every time Gray casts iced shell, and even happens when Ur casted iced shell.

Spoiler: Lyon commenting on how he was surprised Natsu got near iced shell

Spoiler: What iced shell looked like on Galuna Island

Spoiler: Gray vs Silver's iced shell

Spoiler: Ur vs. Deliora's iced shell

Yeah iced shell definitely emits a lot of power in its beginning stages but the ice isn't exactly iced shell ice until the the users body is turned into it. This seems obvious in the only time we have actually seen iced shell used to completion in chapter 38. If Zeref's flames were as hot as base Natsus he should have been able to attack Gray in the beginning stages of iced shells casting or melt it as easily as base Natsu did until Gray actually started turning his body into ice