Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Original Book Series) [SPOILERS - BEWARE]

[SleipnirX]

I mean, not to sound too patronizing, but I think not even reading halfway through the series and then claiming that the show is better is rather silly. Clash is often regarded as a transitional novel. It was about setting a larger table for how expansive the story gets. So, I'd recommend at least finishing Storm before making too many conclusions. That being said, if you know what's coming due to following the show's story, then it could be that the novel's impact is lessened, but I'm not sure whether that sort of thing bothers you much or not.

Eh, it's a fair point, yeah I've not experienced the bookverse story all that far in, but I have to assume what I don't like isn't going to suddenly rectify itself. Indeed, I pretty well know it gets worse before it gets better I suppose I should clarify that I think the TV series is as good or better than the two and a bit books I've read based on my own personal preferences of how it's presented. Again, maybe I will ultimately end up agreeing with you once I've got that far into the books, just I'm not used to struggling to get along with a story that really I do enjoy despite everything - I think the length just exacerbates the issue into one that seems more unmanageable, but is probably there for more or less everything I do read. I know I quite like Fairy Tail's pacing, for eg. Whereas I know quite a lot of people find it to be on the quick side, if not outright rushed.

I however couldn't care less about length because I never really found myself uninterested in what I was reading. That doesn't mean I don't prefer some storylines in the book over others.

I think that's the crux of where we disagree, I guess you probably just consider it another part of the story, even if it's a bit that's less exciting to you, I see it as a more black and white core story and padding split. I have to say I don't think GRRM is doing it to stretch it out for the money, I think he genuinely wants to tell this huge complicated massively-multithreaded story that all ultimately weaves cleverly back together... I just find more enjoyment in something that's a little more straightforward, and has a clear direction of travel, and a definite building of momentum in a traditional story arc. I think that's why I began to lose interest around the end of bk 2/ start of 3, because that's when it really starts opening up and (imo) over reaching itself.

 

[xi0]

I suppose I should clarify that I think the TV series is as good or better than the two and a bit books I've read based on my own personal preferences of how it's presented.

Well, I definitely take less exception with this statement than the broader one you made.

think the length just exacerbates the issue into one that seems more unmanageable, but is probably there for more or less everything I do read.

I didn't get impatient with it since there's a lot to take in. No real rush either, because it's not really clear when Winds will be finished/published.

I think that's the crux of where we disagree, I guess you probably just consider it another part of the story, even if it's a bit that's less exciting to you, I see it as a more black and white core story and padding split. I have to say I don't think GRRM is doing it to stretch it out for the money, I think he genuinely wants to tell this huge complicated massively-multithreaded story that all ultimately weaves cleverly back together... I just find more enjoyment in something that's a little more straightforward, and has a clear direction of travel, and a definite building of momentum in a traditional story arc. I think that's why I began to lose interest around the end of bk 2/ start of 3, because that's when it really starts opening up and (imo) over reaching itself.

There are very straightforward and human aspects to the story, that's why it's had really broad appeal. However, I think it's rather hard to tell the kind of story he's telling, one that is so much about world-building, and has such an extreme sense of history and place, and have a black and white core story. It might have seemed like such a thing existed early in the story and in the show, but this kind of evaporates rather quickly. I guess if you didn't read the events of Storm, Feast, or Dance before watching the show's version of it, this doesn't translate as well. I don't think the overall quality suffers because of how big the world gets. In fact, it's one of it's core assets to me. This story isn't just that of Tyrion/Jon/Dany/Arya/Jaime/etc, it's the story of Westeros. That's why I like reading things like The World of Ice and Fire, and really do look forward to Fire & Blood if that every becomes a thing. It's too interesting to me to not want to know.

 

[SleipnirX]

Well, I definitely take less exception with this statement than the broader one you made.

I didn't get impatient with it since there's a lot to take in. No real rush either, because it's not really clear when Winds will be finished/published.

There are very straightforward and human aspects to the story, that's why it's had really broad appeal. However, I think it's rather hard to tell the kind of story he's telling, one that is so much about world-building, and has such an extreme sense of history and place, and have a black and white core story. It might have seemed like such a thing existed early in the story and in the show, but this kind of evaporates rather quickly. I guess if you didn't read the events of Storm, Feast, or Dance before watching the show's version of it, this doesn't translate as well. I don't think the overall quality suffers because of how big the world gets. In fact, it's one of it's core assets to me. This story isn't just that of Tyrion/Jon/Dany/Arya/Jaime/etc, it's the story of Westeros. That's why I like reading things like The World of Ice and Fire, and really do look forward to Fire & Blood if that every becomes a thing. It's too interesting to me to not want to know.

Mmm, I guess I'm just a traditionalist, I prefer a story to have a traditional plot arc, building up tension through the story to the finale. As you say that's not possible when trying to also flesh out the world in excruciating detail - though imo others have created plenty detailed worlds while doing a better job of not getting sidetracked. I think that's what begins to lose me when I start getting into the story, there is no goal to head towards, so you can't measure progress, so you get the feeling of inertia. I think the TVs series suffers less because a) you're whisked through things quicker, and b) you can go into passive mode for the less interesting parts, they will just happen, you don't have to put effort into extracting them from the page, this frees you up to enjoy the better parts.

I kind of disagree it's not ultimately Jon/ Daenerys' story, for all the time given to everyone else you can kind of tell they're given the most room to grow (or at least 'change' and be moulded by their experiences) as characters, they have a certain degree of plot armour and they are the most central to the 'fantasy' part of the story, as opposed to the historical political intrigue sideshow. It might not seem that way as like I said in my first post, most every character is fleshed out exceptionally well (which is part of the problem) and Martin has been quite clever in using his POV structure to make 'bit player' characters like Ned seem more central than they actually are (presumably to supercharge the shock factor of their deaths) - I mean think about what Ned's actual role in the story is objectively and it becomes clear that despite being one of the heavyweights in book 1, it was never going to be all about him, it's never about the older generations, always the coming of age of the new.

Anyway I think I've rambled on about my personal gripes with how it's all written for long enough, at the end of the day, there's still a great story in there somewhere, just hoping he actually pulls it all together succinctly for the finale.

 

[xi0]

Ned's actual role in the story is objectively and it becomes clear that despite being one of the heavyweights in book 1, it was never going to be all about him, it's never about the older generations, always the coming of age of the new.

Yeah, but the same could be said about any PoV character in the books. For me, Jon and Dany aren't really any exception here. Hell, fans have joked around that the story really is Varys vs Littlefinger, and neither of these characters exist in a first person perspective.

Both Jon and Dany can (and will) die. In the books, Jon is still very much dead, and Dany is still very much lost in the Dothraki sea. The show is past this phase in their stories, and while it still remains to be seen, I can't imagine their stories will head in the exact same direction as the show has. There's next to nothing in Dany's story that even suggests that she's a suitable leader, her biggest asset is her dragons. And there's more than enough foreshadowing to suggest that this won't last for long either.

I don't think it's reasonable to hope for a succinct finale, much less a happy and satisfying one. There's no reason to expect that anyway, mainly because the story was never about such a thing. This is what adds to the "realistic" aspect of the story. I'm not even that optimistic about there being an iron Throne left to sit on when it's all said and done.

 

[SleipnirX]

I don't think it's reasonable to hope for a succinct finale, much less a happy and satisfying one. There's no reason to expect that anyway, mainly because the story was never about such a thing. This is what adds to the "realistic" aspect of the story. I'm not even that optimistic about there being an iron Throne left to sit on when it's all said and done.

And that throws up another problem of doing an 'anthology of Westeros' rather than having a traditional plot to be resolved, where do you end it? It's not like the Battle of Bosworth field was the end of history, everything since has happened after, indeed though that decided the result of the war small skirmishes continued afterwards, it wasn't the sudden end, should something like that be included in ASoIaF? If there's not a satisfactory end that ties up all plot threads reasonably, then I'd consider the story a failure tbh. Doesn't have to be 'happy' but it does have to be conclusive, and that goes against the ongoing march of time style of the series.

Heck even looking at the title of the final novel 'a dream of spring' makes it seem like we won't necessarily even see things settled back in a fresh summer, with a relative peace. To me, fantasy is, by its very nature unrealistic, so you should have a certain degree of the extremely unlikely, and there should be a divide between 'if this happened in the real world' and what actually happens in the story. Otherwise why not just read a history book, or watch a Lucy Worsley documentary, or go to a Medieval Fayre at some relic castle (As a Dorsetine I can recommend Corfe, ruined as it may be) - it's even better when you know it actually happened.

What would you consider an ideal ending from your perspective? Would you be happy to see things left off in the middle of a harsh winter, with almost anyone of note that could fight dead and the weak and vulnerable all clinging to life by the skin of their teeth? That by all rights could be a realistic ending, there is no black and white good or bad in the real world, so there's no reason one side or the other should win, other than sheer manpower/technological advantage, or even sheer luck/ chance (as an example, Agincourt had lots of little things that favoured Henry V, so in a way could be considered a 'chance' victory against (seemingly) the odds: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8648068/Battle-of-Agincourt-ten-reasons-why-the-French-lost.html)

 

[xi0]

And that throws up another problem of doing an 'anthology of Westeros' rather than having a traditional plot to be resolved, where do you end it? It's not like the Battle of Bosworth field was the end of history, everything since has happened after, indeed though that decided the result of the war small skirmishes continued afterwards, it wasn't the sudden end, should something like that be included in ASoIaF? If there's not a satisfactory end that ties up all plot threads reasonably, then I'd consider the story a failure tbh. Doesn't have to be 'happy' but it does have to be conclusive, and that goes against the ongoing march of time style of the series.

The Battle of Bosworth field didn't involved cataclysmic forces such as the Others, Dragons or Krakens.

I don't mean unsatisfying in the sense that the end will be abrupt and current cliffhangers won't be resolved. I mean unsatisfying to many due to what happens to the characters. I don't believe it's a safe bet that Dany will ever take the Iron Throne, much less live. I could say the same about Jon, but it isn't like Jon wants to rule in the first place. He's simply a man of duty, like his father. The difference is people are devoted to Jon for different reasons than Dany. Dany has power because of fear. No one in Westeros is eager to have their keeps melted by dragonfire, conspirators are only pushed to support people like Dany (and Aegon, for that matter) because the current dynasty has pushed them that way. Dany could make concessions towards the North, Iron Islanders, and Dorne for the sake of ruling over whatever is left.... but who even knows what will be left when it's all said and done?

I guess I don't think it's optimistic to believe that there will be a Seven Kingdoms left to rule over. We have no idea how long this Winter will last, we're not even entirely sure if the Winters are what they are because of what goes on beyond the Wall, or if the Others simply nudge it along.

What would you consider an ideal ending from your perspective? Would you be happy to see things left off in the middle of a harsh winter, with almost anyone of note that could fight dead and the weak and vulnerable all clinging to life by the skin of their teeth? That by all rights could be a realistic ending, there is no black and white good or bad in the real world, so there's no reason one side or the other should win, other than sheer manpower/technological advantage, or even sheer luck/ chance (as an example, Agincourt had lots of little things that favoured Henry V, so in a way could be considered a 'chance' victory against (seemingly) the odds: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8648068/Battle-of-Agincourt-ten-reasons-why-the-French-lost.html)

An ideal ending doesn't involve popular/good guys win, hated/evil guys lose. This story has never operated in this manner. The ending will almost certainly be bittersweet.

 

[SleipnirX]

The Battle of Bosworth field didn't involved cataclysmic forces such as the Others, Dragons or Krakens.

I don't mean unsatisfying in the sense that the end will be abrupt and current cliffhangers won't be resolved. I mean unsatisfying to many due to what happens to the characters. I don't believe it's a safe bet that Dany will ever take the Iron Throne, much less live. I could say the same about Jon, but it isn't like Jon wants to rule in the first place. He's simply a man of duty, like his father. The difference is people are devoted to Jon for different reasons than Dany. Dany has power because of fear. No one in Westeros is eager to have their keeps melted by dragonfire, conspirators are only pushed to support people like Dany (and Aegon, for that matter) because the current dynasty has pushed them that way. Dany could make concessions towards the North, Iron Islanders, and Dorne for the sake of ruling over whatever is left.... but who even knows what will be left when it's all said and done?

I guess I don't think it's optimistic to believe that there will be a Seven Kingdoms left to rule over. We have no idea how long this Winter will last, we're not even entirely sure if the Winters are what they are because of what goes on beyond the Wall, or if the Others simply nudge it along.


An ideal ending doesn't involve popular/good guys win, hated/evil guys lose. This story has never operated in this manner. The ending will almost certainly be bittersweet.

Indeed it didn't, but GRRM has cited the wars of the roses as one of the key inspirations for his series, so I was merely pointing out there's usually a fair bit of cleaning up to do after the war, and as he likes tidbits and details like that, would he go on with that theme? Not to mention does he set up that the forces that drove the conflicts of the series aren't resolved and will eventually result in conflict once again?

I'd argue actually when you drill down to it, there is a certain degree of bad guys lose, good guys win, justice is always done - just not necessarily immediately, or in the way/ for the reasons you might expect. I suppose it's to his credit that he can do that and keep it from feeling inevitable though.

Speaking of which we've talked a lot about the negatives of the series, what about all the good things? The brilliant characters by anyone's standards, the breadth of the story is remarkable, even if one of my gripes is that he takes it too far and it unfocused the story - what is it that you particularly love about the series? I know there's usually more/ easier/ more passionate debate in negatives than positives, but that doesn't mean that it should be exclusively that way.

 

[xi0]

Anyone reading Fire & Blood? I'm about 150-200 pages in and I'm enjoying it a lot

 

[Riku]

Ah, completly forgot it is out. Maybe I'll pick it up during the weekend.

 

[xi0]

Ah, completly forgot it is out. Maybe I'll pick it up during the weekend.

I've seen a lot of backlash online about a 700 page book coming out and it not being Winds.... but I don't know, it really doesn't bother me that much. The creative process isn't something I really have to contend with, so being a fan of the series and refusing to read something like Fire & Blood or The World of Ice & Fire, seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face...

 

[Riku]

I've seen a lot of backlash online about a 700 page book coming out and it not being Winds.... but I don't know, it really doesn't bother me that much. The creative process isn't something I really have to contend with, so being a fan of the series and refusing to read something like Fire & Blood or The World of Ice & Fire, seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face...

Frankly, anyone following GRRM should have known it not Winds. And know that it is completly different to write a sequel novel thats an ongoing creatice process, rather than to write your research and background work notes down in clean writing. Which is what Fire and Blood essentially is if I got it right. Stuff that was written or created years ago, now just in a publishable form.

 

[xi0]

Frankly, anyone following GRRM should have known it not Winds. And know that it is completly different to write a sequel novel thats an ongoing creatice process, rather than to write your research and background work notes down in clean writing. Which is what Fire and Blood essentially is if I got it right. Stuff that was written or created years ago, now just in a publishable form.

Well sure, but he did announce that the book was coming this year, and maybe another... but we all how that turned out.

The thing is most of the manuscript for part 1 was written while he was contributing to The World of Ice and Fire, even though the main writers of the book were Elio and Linda. They were shocked at the pages and pages that they'd get seemingly day after day concerning Aegon's Conquest and the Targaryen dynasty, and eventually they realized it couldn't possibly all be used in World. And all of this took place after Dance came out. But I guess it's true that most people being surprised that this isn't Winds are people who don't really follow him closely.

 

[Drmke]

I just finished the first chapter about Jaehaerys. The book is much better than I thought it would be. Definitely fine with George working on stuff like this.

 

[Static]

Question - Are the five forts built to keep out the others?

 

[xi0]

Question - Are the five forts built to keep out the others?

It's implied they were built to dealt with the Long Night, yeah. That and similar legends to Azor Ahai and The Last Hero exist in many other cultures in Essos, so it's likely that Westeros isn't the only place to deal with them during the Winter.

 

[Static]

Do you think the Long Night has/will occur in Southorys or Ulthos too?

 

[xi0]

There is the weird, ancient, oily black stone featured in Westeros and Essos in Sothoryos, but I'd say they're too far away from the North. We know next to nothing about Ulthos though, it's a just a place inserted on a map.

 

[Static]

The black stones are remnants of the Empire of the Dawn, correct?

 

[xi0]

The black stones are remnants of the Empire of the Dawn, correct?

The Empire of the Dawn worshiped a black stone that fell from the sky, but whether that's related to the oily black stones around the world isn't clear. The notion that enough weird meteorites could fall to be used in the construction of the Seastone Chair, the Hightower, the Five Forts, the entire cities of Yeen and Asshai, and any number of castles/structures described as such seems really bizarre. I always took it as a Lovecraftian reference, but there's obviously a connection.

 

[Organizized]

A lot of news/rumors lately that Winds is basically done. GRRM blogging about meeting with all of his publishers and editors for one, the new "upcoming releases" section on his website for another, but obviously mostly because he practically promised to have the book in hand when he acts as Master of Ceremonies at the World Sci-Fi Convention in July-August.

So maybe it's time to start that re-read now at last.