Here is what I said:
First, Overwhelm ≠ Better. That is faulty logic because all the Tartaros Demons overwhelmed Fairy Tail. Not a single one was defeated with ease. Overwhelm here means that there was an exchange where the fight wasn't so one-sided. In other words, one or both sides had trouble. Second, I was specifically referring to skills as I quoted myself which is backed up by Dimaria's statement herself. Lastly, Natsu vs Bluenote and Natsu vs Jacob is more like a one-sided fight or a one-shot rather than overwhelm.
Well that wasn't what I replied to. What is quoted was you saying Kagura is faster than Wahl and more skilled than Dimaria. Doesn't seem to change much from what you're saying here but like I said before, this is simply hasty conclusion. Wahl was clearly not using the more powerful attacks in his employ. Wahl himself didn't move. There's literally zero basis for comparing Wahl and Kagura in speed. It's not like it's a given that Wahl's rockets move faster or as fast as Wahl himself. Saying Kagura is faster than Wahl is a huge assumption.
Which Tartaros demons overwhelmed who? Overwhelm in Merriam Webster dictionary has these meanings:
- to affect (someone) very strongly
- to cause (someone) to have too many things to deal with
- to defeat (someone or something) completely
Now in the context of battles, the last definition is appropriate and it says to defeat completely. That's something the Tartaros demons didn't do. They never overwhelmed FT. At least not in a general sense and going by the definitions.
No, there is no telling that Wahl used that attack to wipe out fodders. He could have gone overboard. That is exactly what I was arguing about with another user. That attacked killed a member from Mermaid Heel and if we just look at damage it did, then it goes to prove how strong it actually was. Not only that, but it covered such a wide area. Even if most of the missiles already hit, Kagura still sliced through 5+ rockets within a second.
I used this feat as a way to say that Kagura is a match for a Spriggan mainly because of speed. Her skills were proven through Dimaria. We know she has high MP, attack, and defense from previous fights. What else do we need to say that she is Spriggan Level? I mean everyone says Gajeel is one when we've seen nothing from him. Kagura has more feats here.
Bringing 'ifs' and 'maybes' lead into an endless loop. I could turn that around to say that he could've toned it down because he didn't think he needed to do anything serious to erase the enemy. Saying he could've gone overboard can't be considered here.
The attack killed a mermaid heel Mage? What exactly does that change? They're fodder. At least to the spriggans. You make its sound as though an attack (potentially) killing a mermaid heel Mage automatically means the spriggan was serious. Mermaid heel is a fodder guild. It's not like this is even SaberTooth or something. The spriggans are monsters. They're casual attacks are absurd to begin with. Heck their mere presence is enough to intimidate a seasoned mage. No one said the attack wasn't strong, the point is that you're claiming it was automatically one of Wahl's better attacks. We saw Natsu near obliterate Bluenote with a roar (without even naming it). The attack was overwhelming from Bluenote's POV. From Natsu, it was just a roar. Pretty much his most basic/used attack. Doesn't mean it's weak but it doesn't mean it's his strongest or among either.
Speed doesn't automatically make her spriggan level. Like I said before, Wendy actually blitzed Dimaria, managing to successfully attack her before she could react. I've never said Gajeel is spriggan level. I may assume he's potentially one based on hype and plot, but his feats don't indicate he is. I don't consider Gray or Erza spriggan level either. Going by current manga feats, both will lose if they fight solo. Only Natsu and Laxus have currently proven they're spriggan tier within FT and then Jellal outside.
Lastly, being able to fight a spriggan or hold your own for a while doesn't make you spriggan tier. The gods of ishgar were able to eventually shrug off Serena's attack and then incapacitate him, but they still lost. In the end, they're not spriggan tier. To be spriggan tier means you can fight on par or defeat a spriggan. Erza for example is close, but she's not actually there. She wasn't on par with Ajeel, she was beneath him.
Wendy is different because we know she is weak. She was too far behind in Tartaros to catch up to a Spriggan's level. Kagura, on the other hand, was very much on Erza's level so to say that she caught up and became Spriggan level is not that much of a stretch. Actually, even before the fight, I knew Wendy and Chelia would lose against Dimaria. I'd call the fight nonsense if they won. The fact that Chelia got an overpowered power-up made me dislike the fight but it would be better than if those two girls soloed Dimaria with ease. Also, the feat from Wendy that you're referencing just proves my point. Wendy did nothing to Dimaria. Meanwhile, we have Kagura who could still do something and based on her stats as well as her feats + hype, it is reasonable to say she is Spriggan level. Otherwise, we would be sitting here and saying Gray isn't Spriggan level when we know for a fact that he is. He may not be on Natsu's level but I have no doubts that he is Spriggan level. Note that even Kagura has more feats than Gray.
All this based on Kagura blocking one attack from Dimaria.
Also, I wouldn't say Gray is spriggan tier. Plot demands that FT somehow best the spriggans but it doesn't mean they can all do so individually. I'm pretty sure there's no proof to Gray being spriggan level. He can certainly fight one, but it doesn't mean he's on their level. Based on feats, Gray isn't spriggan tier. You strongly believe he is because he's a main character and is supposed to be Natsu's rival. Certainly one can argue about him fighting a spriggan but until proven, he can't be placed on that tier. We've seen him use an Ice DS move on a spriggan and have zero effect. He has a secret move, but this tournament is based on feats as much as possible, and Gray (as well as Kagura) both lack feats to claim they're spriggan tier.
As far as I am concerned, overwhelm = surprise. The fact that Gray and Natsu were surprised by Brandish's power is no different from Kagura being surprised by Dimaria's power. If we're just grasping at words, then they both mean the same thing.
Well it isn't the same thing. Words can hold different meanings and facial expressions/dialogues are to be taken into account. Context matters. You can't have Kagura saying that Dimaria's overwhelming MP made her lose track/sense of her surroundings and claim it's the same as Gray saying that Brandish is unlike anything they've met before. Gray simply compared the current enemy to those of the past and thus said she wasn't on the level of opponents they've fought before. Kagura.., well Kagura basically got sucked into another world. One where Dimaria's MP was all she could feel.
Then there shouldn't be any argument here. Calling someone's magic overwhelming is a direct statement. Saying "Whats up with her magic... It's nothing like we've ever felt before" is just an indirect way of calling someone's magic overwhelming. Besides it would be boring if Hiro Mashima just copied and pasted the same statement over and over again, so he has to phrase it differently to change it up.
Well he can phrase it differently to be sure, but he changed it this time by adding that extra bit.
That statement you quoted, like I said, is a comparison being made with the current enemy and those of the past. Later on, we have Gray compare it to that of Makarov and state that it's better. Again, comparisons.
Actually, she didn't. Erza was at the mercy of Kagura in this panel.
But she got back up and fought, right? So why can't Kagura do the same? In fact, she was about to when Minerva stepped in.
You don't claim someone was at the mercy if said person was able to get back up. Being at kagura's mercy indicates that Kagura could've done as she pleaded without Erza being unable to do squat about it which wasn't the case.
And then she got hit and stayed down. But Erza fought through and bested Minerva eventually. That's the difference. Erza can simply keep going. Kagura and Erza are not far off in strength actually, but Erza's durability/endurance and Tenacity outclass that of Kagura by a pretty long shot. I mean; consider the attack that eventually took Kagura down. When Erza fought Kyoka (which was shortly after GMG), Erza took far more damage despite already being severely injured and with heightened sensations and loss of her sense, all from a more powerful opponent (than Minerva) who was constantly getting stronger. She still bested her opponent. Kyoka doubted that Erza even feels pain. Compare that to the flesh wound that Kagura got that kept her down.
Exactly. That kick in the face hardly impressed Dimaria because it did no damage. The fact that the hit was successful or not doesn't really matter. But not only was Kagura able to defend from a surprise attack, Dimaria could see the skills that Kagura possessed unlike Wendy.
Dimaria said Kagura was not bad. I don't get why you're drawing such conclusions from a 'not bad'. The choice of words are even specific there. 'Not bad'. It was a 'good' or 'impressive' or so. It was a 'not bad'.
Sure, getting stronger from anger is natural. Just like when Juvia got stronger by thinking about Gray when she fought Meredy.
This is legitimate because she didn't go from having trouble to an automatic one-shot. Actually, this is a prime example of how PoF should be used. Not when it increases your power by a full tier or more.
We're not here to discuss PoF or if it's logical or likable. The fact remains that Erza is able to keep on going for the sake of her nakama. To extents far beyond what should've been her limit. This is canon fact regardless of how its accepted.
I agree he saved her. From taking damage... It's not like if he wasn't there, then Kagura would be defeated. There is no proof of that. We saw Erza take damage in her fight. But she managed to defeat Ajeel. It happens with everybody. To come out of a battle unscathed means there is a huge difference in power which doesn't seem to be the case here.
Never said it would've defeated her. However, my point was that you claimed she didn't get her chance against a spriggan. I refuted this by saying she did indeed have two shots. First against Dimaria (which was a hopeless situation) and then against neinhart. Despite these chances, she was never able to do anything solid to cement her place as close to spriggan tier. Instead, she got saved by Jellal. You implied this hindered her but the point remains that she needed saving and considering how much you've been harping on her 'speed' that's saying a lot. You claim slicing a few rockets and partying an attack are enough to say that she faster and more skilled than Wahl and Dimaria respectively but she wouldn't have needed to be saved if she was. At least, we saw that Jellal moves faster (considering she couldn't get out of the way) and yet Jellal still got hit. The main basis of your argument has been her speed and plausible strength not her ability to tank (because she isn't one) and yet that speed failed her from a rather casual attack from neinhart.
Now, comparing Erza and Kagura, I think we have enough evidence to say that they are likely the same in terms of endurance. Sure, Erza has durability with her armors but we saw Kagura has the attack power to cut through Erza's most defensive armor. And that is when her sword was unsheathed.
No they aren't. Not in terms of endurance. Erza can keep going much longer and with more damage than Kagura.
Cutting through Erza's most powerful weapon is indeed impressive but it becomes redundant when Erza blocked and fought on par with Kagura after she unsealed archenemy.
Either way, Kagura has the speed to blitz Erza so the fight could still be in her favor.
Well the speed didn't do her much favor asides the earlier stages on their fight, hence the outcome of the fight.
Like I mentioned before, putting 'could or maybe' brings an endless loop. Maybe Kagura can have the fight in her favor but canonically, she didn't. And this is considering she was fighting Erza without SO. She was literally fighting Erza who was 7 years behind. And then Erza was a match for her. SO gave Erza back the advantage she should've have had. That difference didn't just go away.
As for the fight with Neinhart, Erza and Kagura obviously didn't get the spotlight because Jellal has it. Plus, he is stronger. That much I can agree. Jellal is comparable to Laxus who should be above Erza. However, that does not mean Kagura can't take on Neinhart or another Spriggan herself either...
I've actually never said Kagura can't take on a spriggan. Realistically speaking, her level should be good enough for that, provided the enemy isn't using hax (age seal for example). However, that doesn't make her spriggan tier. The other issue is claiming that her skills surpass those of the spriggans when there's zero evidence to the fact. Slicing Wahl's rockets isn't a basis for comparing her to Wahl in terms of speed. Blocking Dimaria's strike isn't basis for saying she's more skilled. These conclusions are hasty and unfounded tbh.[/quote]
