Semifinal Gildarts Clive vs Natsu Dragneel

[Crimson Ice]

Curious about what?


Are you trying to tell me that Gajeel mops the floor with Bradman?


Seriously, I can accept that you vote Natsu in this thread, but if you think that Gajeel can mop the floor with Bradman, then I don't think we are reading the same manga anymore.


Your very statement contradicts itself:


"Gajeel literally mops the floor with him while using no actual Dragon Slaying moves but Bradman is stronger"



See how this doesn't make sense?


How can you say "Gajeel literally mops the floor with him" in the exact same sentence that you say "but Bradman is stronger"??


That in itself is a contradiction. It's either one or the other.










No, that's not correct.


First of all, you can't change the rules on us. The battle already started, so there are no changing the rules.


If you wanted to make rules, you should have done it at the very beginning.





Secondly, I'll quote what Holt says here:


"Basically, reasonable speculation is intended for feats that haven't yet been shown but can be inferred going by canon material."





Now, I don't see anything in this statement that does not fit the criteria for us to powerscale Gildartz the way we want to.


Gildartz has not shown feats yet, but he does have canon material to back him up.



It is canon that Gildartz has beaten Natsu 2 times.


One by making Natsu surrender. And the other by one punch.



From those, we can infer that Gildartz is still superior to Natsu.

Can you not comprehend context at all? I was looking at it from your view point, Gajeel stomps Bradman in DF yet Bradman is stronger? I WANT YOU to explain that since you claim Bradman was stronger despite Gajeel bodying him.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 24, 2016 ---

His sentence is a contradiction, but it is sarcasm. He's saying that Gajeel mops the floor with Bradman and quotes you saying G>B. Thus contradiction. He's not saying G>B, he's actually denying it

THANK YOU.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2016 ---

I just read something very interesting, and reminiscent of what i personally said as well about Natsu.
Alright i want to know you guys' opinion about it: Gildarts in this tournament defeated Wahl, Gray as well as some guys from Group A (where he finished 1 vote away from Jellal's first place).
You guys claiming that Gildarts can't be Spriggan level and that we can't speculate because rules blabla. Can you guys explain me how this tournament can remain credible if Gildarts beats Wahl in quarterfinals, whereas in semifinals he is said to NOT be Spriggan level.
We should definitely all agree that Gildarts is, in fact, Spriggan level. Whether or not you agree, we all have to accept it. If you guys don't agree with it you're basically saying all previous round have no value and this whole tournament has no value.
The majority of people voted Gildarts over Wahl is what it means. In this tournament, Gildarts beated a Spriggan 1v1. He beated Gray as well. Now Natsu can be stronger and i won't disagree with it, but at the very least, let's not say Gildarts isn't relevant blabla. He beated Gray AND Wahl and that has been decided by us all.

I have voted against Gildarts when he fought both Wahl and Gray. This tournament has no value or Gildarts would be out and Jacob would have beat Mard Geer.

 

[Aizen]

I just read something very interesting, and reminiscent of what i personally said as well about Natsu.
Alright i want to know you guys' opinion about it: Gildarts in this tournament defeated Wahl, Gray as well as some guys from Group A (where he finished 1 vote away from Jellal's first place).
You guys claiming that Gildarts can't be Spriggan level and that we can't speculate because rules blabla. Can you guys explain me how this tournament can remain credible if Gildarts beats Wahl in quarterfinals, whereas in semifinals he is said to NOT be Spriggan level.
We should definitely all agree that Gildarts is, in fact, Spriggan level. Whether or not you agree, we all have to accept it. If you guys don't agree with it you're basically saying all previous round have no value and this whole tournament has no value.
The majority of people voted Gildarts over Wahl is what it means. In this tournament, Gildarts beated a Spriggan 1v1. He beated Gray as well. Now Natsu can be stronger and i won't disagree with it, but at the very least, let's not say Gildarts isn't relevant blabla. He beated Gray AND Wahl and that has been decided by us all.

I honestly couldn't disagree more, this tournament is not some Team event where if we disagree on one thing we must all come together at the end. It's about each one of us voicing our opinion on each matchup. I don't expect this tournament to go exactly how i would have voted all the way, but that also does not mean i have to agree that Gildarts is Spriggan level as of what we have seen. These are all non cannon opinion based matchups, for the sake of a communal tournament, at least that's how i see it.

 

[Nemispelled]

His sentence is a contradiction, but it is sarcasm. He's saying that Gajeel mops the floor with Bradman and quotes you saying G>B. Thus contradiction. He's not saying G>B, he's actually denying it

I never said G>B. I don't know what Crimson Ice is reading.

In fact, I said B>G.


But I would appreciate it if anybody can tell me where I said G>B.

Yeah and that's before the timeskip where Natsu gained a massive power up. Honestly if we are going to say that power scaling characters that don't fight for arcs at a time is ok then why have this rule at all? My understanding is that it is intended to keep the focus on character feats not speculation, which is exactly what power scaling a character is.

Jellal's Sema is also before the timeskip. A lot of things are before the timeskip.


But we can still speculate about all of them based on Holt's words.


What Holt meant is that we cannot speculate that Gray has Devil Force or Gajeel has Dragon Force.


But powerscaling Gildartz is acceptable.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 24, 2016 ---

Can you not comprehend context at all? I was looking at it from your view point, Gajeel stomps Bradman in DF yet Bradman is stronger? I WANT YOU to explain that since you claim Bradman was stronger despite Gajeel bodying him.

When the hell did I say Gajeel stomps Bradman in DF????


Don't put words into my mouth.




I do claim Bradman is stronger than Gajeel.

Do you?


Gajeel was practically knocking at Death's Door 2 chapters ago.





Are you trying to tell me that Gajeel is stronger than Bradman?


I WANT YOU to explain that for me.

 

[Aizen]

I never said G>B. I don't know what Crimson Ice is reading.

In fact, I said B>G.


But I would appreciate it if anybody can tell me where I said G>B.








Jellal's Sema is also before the timeskip. A lot of things are before the timeskip.


But we can still speculate about all of them based on Holt's words.


What Holt meant is that we cannot speculate that Gray has Devil Force or Gajeel has Dragon Force.


But powerscaling Gildartz is acceptable.

No offense but i would like Holt to respond, instead of us speculating as to what he meant. I personally think saying Jellal still has a move, and power scaling an entire character are two different things.

This whole contest has been a joke.... this should have waited til the war neared its end almost 0 credibility for most of the contestants

i don't think it's been a joke, but i do think a tournament down the line would be way more fruitful.

 

[Takuan]

I honestly couldn't disagree more, this tournament is not some Team event where if we disagree on one thing we must all come together at the end. It's about each one of us voicing our opinion on each matchup. I don't expect this tournament to go exactly how i would have voted all the way, but that also does not mean i have to agree that Gildarts is Spriggan level as of what we have seen. These are all non cannon opinion based matchups, for the sake of a communal tournament, at least that's how i see it.

Fair enough, you made me like your opinion more than my own. :P

Well in my eyes, this tournament is like every participant fighting in 1v1s and only one remains. Thus based on feats and facts from the manga we have to determine who would win each 1v1. In the end, throughout the tournament Gildarts already defeated Gray and Wahl.
I can disagree all i want about God Serena losing to Natsu in the manga, unless Hiro decides to show that happen i wont beliieve it. But in this tournament Natsu won. I accept it. We should all accept that in that tournament Gildarts won against Wahl and Gray.

But tbh your opinion is pretty good i might change mine

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 24, 2016 ---

I never said G>B. I don't know what Crimson Ice is reading.

In fact, I said B>G.


But I would appreciate it if anybody can tell me where I said G>B.

It's my bad, i wanted to say Gajeel < Bradman, which is what you said and what Crimson Ice denied.
Whatever, i tried to help and in the end i created even more misunderstanding. I'll leave that between you now :P

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Yeah i get you on this, but i think people need to ask themselves something simple, why would Gildarts not be going all out against Bluenote who was threatening their sacred ground and all of FT? He was worn out after the fight that much can not be denied. whether that was due to Bluenote beating on him when he had no magic power, or whether it really did just tire him out is unknown. To me if Gildarts could have defeated Bluenote easily he would have, the fact he did not imo means they are somewhat close in power with Gildarts having the edge. All i was saying is that if Gildarts beat Natsu high diff or whatever, and Natsu is Spriggan level at least, then what is the difference between Bluenote and Natsu now? To be clear i am only talking about what we know, i personally believe Gildarts will be stronger when he comes back, and therefore would give Natsu a really good fight. Were going off what we know though and to me what we know is that Gildarts best feat is beating Bluenote with some amount of diff depending on your perspective, and that Natsu oneshotted that same character recently. I should mention that i personally disagree with Gildarts beating Wall the same as Natsu, as i see them as being on the same tier, perhaps Natsu is slightly higher but not by much at his current level. I should also mention i don't think we should all be taking DF into consideration either, as he has not used it since Tartaros, and therefore for all we know FDKM could have replaced it.

Well, you see, fights progress differently and it all depends on the person. The beginning of the fight was just for the two characters to test each other's strengths and for us as readers to see how powerful Bluenote was. However, after the Tenrou Tree was restored, Gildarts was sure enough that he could defeat Bluenote and he did. I was never a fan of the Tenrou Tree being the source for Fairy Tail's power but it is what it is. Also, Gildarts might've been angry but didn't use full power because it might've been too destructive. There is a difference between holding back, trying, and going full-power.

This match here really all depends on what Spriggan level you rate Natsu. Personally, I say he is no stronger than a Medium-Tier Spriggan. Back in the earlier stages of the tournament, there was sort of a consensus that Mard Geer was Low-Tier Spriggan if not close to it. So it is not entirely impossible for Gildarts to be Spriggan Tier. Besides, Gildarts has many times more hype than him.

Fair enough. So you think Natsu and Wahl should win against Gildarts. I'm more curious about your opinion on Gildarts vs Gray. If you are willing to tell me the difficulty of those matches, that would help. I find that fight to have been the most contradicting match in this tournament so far when compared to this one.

 

[Nemispelled]

No offense but i would like Holt to respond, instead of us speculating as to what he meant. I personally think saying Jellal still has a move, and power scaling an entire character are two different things.

Fine, but I'm just going off what Holt said.

It's my bad, i wanted to say Gajeel < Bradman, which is what you said and what Crimson Ice denied.
Whatever, i tried to help and in the end i created even more misunderstanding. I'll leave that between you now :P

That's alright.

All I said was that, if anything, Bradman is stronger than Gajeel.


This whole thing started when I replied to somebody who said "DF Gajeel defeated Bradman without much effort".

 

[Arjuna]

Where's the proof that Natsu was using a Fire Dragon King Spell in his base state?. He could've easily been using a FDK spell in his FDKM form against Ikusa. Where's the evidence that Natsu can use fire dragon king spells in his base form? I want actual proof, not what you believe or opinion-oriented.

Okay:-
i)There was not a single mention of FDKM in chapter 434.You can't show that.Infact before chapter 464 we didn't even know there is something called FDKM that exists.
ii)When he enters FDKM he mentions it as against Zeref or Jacob.
iii)In FDKM there is immense aura from Natsu's body which itself is a mountain level feat.Lot of rays come out body.We don't see it againsr Ikusa-Tsunagi or Alvarez soldiers.
Most important those 2 are different.Obe is a poweeyp mode and another is a spell.

 

[Indira]

Okay:-
i)There was not a single mention of FDKM in chapter 434.You can't show that.Infact before chapter 464 we didn't even know there is something called FDKM that exists.
ii)When he enters FDKM he mentions it as against Zeref or Jacob.
iii)In FDKM there is immense aura from Natsu's body which itself is a mountain level feat.Lot of rays come out body.We don't see it againsr Ikusa-Tsunagi or Alvarez soldiers.
Most important those 2 are different.Obe is a poweeyp mode and another is a spell.

1)Having any mention is irrelevant. He used a FDKM spell because he was in FDKM mode against Bluenote. He went all out.
2)Again, why does a spell need to be mentioned for us to know whether one is in base or FDKM Mode?. This is a figment of your own imagination.
Natsu in Base Mode means he's using base mode spells
Natsu in FDKM Mode means he's using FDKM spells
unless there's a change in character appearance.

I don't buy what you're selling.

 

[Arjuna]

1)Having any mention is irrelevant. He used a FDKM spell because he was in FDKM mode against Bluenote. He went all out.
2)Again, why does a spell need to be mentioned for us to know whether one is in base or FDKM Mode?. This is a figment of your own imagination.
Natsu in Base Mode means he's using base mode spells
Natsu in FDKM Mode means he's using FDKM spells
unless there's a change in character appearance.

I don't buy what you're selling.

First of all he didn't use any FDK spell against Bluenote.It was his simple spell in his base state.
Whenever he enters any mode it is clearly mentioned.
I challenge you to show the same aura he achieved against Jacob replicated against Ikusa.

 

[Indira]

First of all he didn't use any FDK spell against Bluenote.It was his simple spell in his base state.
Whenever he enters any mode it is clearly mentioned.
I challenge you to show the same aura he achieved against Jacob replicated against Ikusa.

I meant WarGod. Not Bluenote.
Challenge me what? Burden of proof is on you here.
You make the claims, you deal with him.

 

[Rain Cloud]

I also kind of don't agree with your claims of DF not working on enemies a lot of tiers above Natsu simply because he was capable of beating Jellal, who was well above Erza, while using it. Whereas Erza wasn't even giving him mid difficulty going all out... So, the thing went like this DF Natsu > Jellal >> Erza >> Natsu. So, yeah, Jellal was three or four tiers above Natsu and still he managed to defeat him with his DF. Similarly, he managed to defeat Zero, an opponent who should've been WS tier (around Makarov's level) which, at that time, was pretty damn top notch!!

The progress Natsu's shown after this TS is very, very hard to beat by anyone. Specifically someone whose age pretty much proves he's most likely past his prime (I wouldn't be so sure though, I mean, I don't believe in the concept of prime in this manga, looks like anyone who trains becomes stronger). So, I think current base Natsu would already give Tartaros Glidartz a very decent fight, but he'd most likely lose in the end. BDKM would already make them on par or would give Natsu an edge against Tartaros Glidartz. DF Natsu would probably fodderize him...

Very well reasoned out. I'd have to question a few of those points however.

Again, looking at Mard Geer's, there's lack of explicitly drawn damage from Natsu's DF secret art, although I'm "okay" with seeing DF as a 3x multiplier. But I don't agree with "I also kind of don't agree with your claims of DF not working on enemies a lot of tiers above Natsu simply because he was capable of beating Jellal".

To be clear, DF Natsu did "blitz" Jellal, however the moment Jellal decided that the preservation of the tower was of no importance, he was in position to demolish DF Natsu (+ Erza) if not for a "convenient" mortal wound given prior to the fight. IMO just like his "win" with Laxus, I view DF Natsu's "win" against Jellal the same way. Having to have a character nerfed ever AFTER having a DF 3x multiplier? That's not a win IMO. Not even close. Can DF Natsu defeat Jellal now? Probably (hopefully). But again Jellal =/= Gildarts.

And I reiterate that with Mard Geer's tanking of Natsu's attack. Just because Natsu felt 3x stronger (in pre-skip) doesn't necessarily imply he can even fight on par with those leagues above his base form. To me, FDKM (w/o Igneel's flames) is 2.5x and DF is 3x, which is pretty negligible. And if Gildarts is somehow still stronger than FDKM Natsu, I wouldn't see how a negligible boost would do anything other than burning natsu out faster in terms of magic supply.

 

[Aizen]

Well, you see, fights progress differently and it all depends on the person. The beginning of the fight was just for the two characters to test each other's strengths and for us as readers to see how powerful Bluenote was. However, after the Tenrou Tree was restored, Gildarts was sure enough that he could defeat Bluenote and he did. I was never a fan of the Tenrou Tree being the source for Fairy Tail's power but it is what it is. Also, Gildarts might've been angry but didn't use full power because it might've been too destructive. There is a difference between holding back, trying, and going full-power.

This match here really all depends on what Spriggan level you rate Natsu. Personally, I say he is no stronger than a Medium-Tier Spriggan. Back in the earlier stages of the tournament, there was sort of a consensus that Mard Geer was Low-Tier Spriggan if not close to it. So it is not entirely impossible for Gildarts to be Spriggan Tier. Besides, Gildarts has many times more hype than him.

Fair enough. So you think Natsu and Wahl should win against Gildarts. I'm more curious about your opinion on Gildarts vs Gray. If you are willing to tell me the difficulty of those matches, that would help. I find that fight to have been the most contradicting match in this tournament so far when compared to this one.

I rank Wall and Natsu roughly the same, but i would give Natsu the edge i suppose. As for Gray ( who is my favorite character), i don't think we have seen enough of Gray to know. I will admit I gave Gildarts the win, which honestly following the tournament rules would have been a tough call, but i would give Gray the edge due to what he did against Ajeel. I should have voted for Gray, but it is what it is. I will also say i don't really believe in Spriggan tiers per say either, so that might divide us a bit as well. I don't know whether i would rate Mard Geer that high personally. I wish that was the portrayal Hiro is giving us, but seeing what he did to Hades against Laxus makes me think it is not. I think the Bluenote thing is quite subjective so hard to say there.

 

[Arjuna]

I meant WarGod. Not Bluenote.
Challenge me what? Burden of proof is on you here.
You make the claims, you deal with him.

Here's a screenshot of the page in CR.Here you see Jacob burning from Natsu's aura itself.He is also mentioning he is entering FDKM.If you can show this same aura emanating from his body against Ikusa-Tsunagi or a single mention of FDKM before chapter 464 i will accept that he was in FDKM against Ikusa-Tsunagi.And don't think he went all out against the war god especially when he used his weakest spell against him.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

I rank Wall and Natsu roughly the same, but i would give Natsu the edge i suppose. As for Gray ( who is my favorite character), i don't think we have seen enough of Gray to know. I will admit I gave Gildarts the win, which honestly following the tournament rules would have been a tough call, but i would give Gray the edge due to what he did against Ajeel. I should have voted for Gray, but it is what it is. I will also say i don't really believe in Spriggan tiers per say either, so that might divide us a bit as well. I don't know whether i would rate Mard Geer that high personally. I wish that was the portrayal Hiro is giving us, but seeing what he did to Hades against Laxus makes me think it is not. I think the Bluenote thing is quite subjective so hard to say there.

Okay. Thanks for replying. In retrospect, I shouldn't have been curious of who you voted for because it is kind of personal. Seeing that you didn't discuss in the other threads with Gildarts, I realized afterwards that it might have been because you didn't want to reveal who you voted for which is understandable. Sorry if it bothered you by any chance.

Anyways, I agree that I personally wouldn't rate Mard Geer that high either. However, some believe that he is indeed Spriggan tier.

The reason why I asked for your opinion regarding Gildarts vs Gray is because neither have had any significant feats so far. Thus, that was by far the most speculative match. Here is my problem though. The fact that many said Gildarts stomps Gray, but then claimed Natsu stomps Gildarts means that Natsu is overwhelmingly stronger than Gray which I disagree with completely. Even if one can claim Gildarts beats Gray with some difficulty, there is no way Natsu would easily take this match. Especially since he was pretty much fodderized by Gildarts at the end of last arc.

As for Spriggan tiers, I can see your viewpoint. Although many believe it exists and some don't, I truly believe it does. By hype (words), the Spriggans are all the same. By feats (action), they are different. This is just my opinion though.

Honestly, I still think Gildarts wins this though.

 

[Aizen]

Okay. Thanks for replying. In retrospect, I shouldn't have been curious of who you voted for because it is kind of personal. Seeing that you didn't discuss in the other threads with Gildarts, I realized afterwards that it might have been because you didn't want to reveal who you voted for which is understandable. Sorry if it bothered you by any chance.

Anyways, I agree that I personally wouldn't rate Mard Geer that high either. However, some believe that he is indeed Spriggan tier.

The reason why I asked for your opinion regarding Gildarts vs Gray is because neither have had any significant feats so far. Thus, that was by far the most speculative match. Here is my problem though. The fact that many said Gildarts stomps Gray, but then claimed Natsu stomps Gildarts means that Natsu is overwhelmingly stronger than Gray which I disagree with completely. Even if one can claim Gildarts beats Gray with some difficulty, there is no way Natsu would easily take this match. Especially since he was pretty much fodderized by Gildarts at the end of last arc.

As for Spriggan tiers, I can see your viewpoint. Although many believe it exists and some don't, I truly believe it does. By hype (words), the Spriggans are all the same. By feats (action), they are different. This is just my opinion though.

Honestly, I still think Gildarts wins this though.

That's fairy enough, and i had no problem revealing who i voted for, even if honestly it makes me contradict myself a bit with choosing speculation over feats, when i took Gildarts over Gray. Better to be honest imo, plus neither one of them have showed that much anyways. I also agree that by feats it is plausible that there are Spriggan tiers, but for me i just think it is so subjective, it's just easier to say they are around the same level. I don't think Gildarts would stomp Gray or vice versa from what we have seen so far. By portrayal Gray probably does stomp him, mostly because Gildarts has no real Portrayal right now, since we have not seen him in so long. If Mashima does include him in the arc, which i think he will, then i think it's pretty much guaranteed that Gildarts would not get stomped by Gray then, i am mostly talking about what we know as per tournament rules. All in all a tournament after FT is finished is preferable to me over this one. Mostly because there is so much speculation with how powerful characters are that we have not seen. Though like i said i think out of all of the big Shonen manga out there, i feel like FT has one of the more inconsistent power scales, therefore there will still be some problems i imagine.

 

[Jko]

Powerscaling only works when the character is absolutely stronger based off feats or credible statements than the character they're powerscaling to. In this case Gildarts is absolutely not until he gets a feat or current statement that suggest it. Character portrayal means jack squat since the timeskip too so there's no point in using that either.

 

[Ebony Maw]

That might be true, or he might just not want Gildarts in these arcs due to the amount of characters already in them, and therefore Gildarts has an easy excuse as to why he is not there(he travels a lot). Honestly if you are voting for Gildarts then you are either saying that each Spriggan is roughly on par with Bluenote, or you are not following the rules of the tournament. To be clear I do believe that Gildarts will come back powerful enough to fight a Spriggan, simply because like you said he will be a turning point in the arc most likely. However either Hiro will have to say he trained or his power level is completely off, which imo most of his power levels already are to some extent haha. Like I said I don't believe you can follow the rules of the tournament and come to the conclusion that Gildarts wins this, his best feat was beating Bluenote mid-high diff on his home turf ( Tenrou Island). Which to me is simply not enough considering Natsu oneshotted him last arc.

Don't get me wrong, my vote isn't solely based on the fact that Gildarts isn't back but it is a reason that makes sense to me. I also think that we can do some estimation of Gildarts' power, though I guess that would depend on how much you think he grew. Either way, the person I vote for does it extreme-diff.

Yeah, the power-levels have been messed up for a bit tbh, lol.

 

[Char]

Very well reasoned out. I'd have to question a few of those points however.

Again, looking at Mard Geer's, there's lack of explicitly drawn damage from Natsu's DF secret art, although I'm "okay" with seeing DF as a 3x multiplier. But I don't agree with "I also kind of don't agree with your claims of DF not working on enemies a lot of tiers above Natsu simply because he was capable of beating Jellal".

I do think Mard Geer got damage from DF Natsu's attack:

Spoiler

Notice carefully. Mard Geer has scratches. He didn't have scratches prior to that attack. He gets nervous and says "you'll need to do better than that" not as saying "that didn't hurt me" but as acknowledging -but not accepting- that his opponent has reached a level where he poses a threat to himself.

Give Natsu a couple of more chances to attack MG and I'm pretty sure Natsu would've won.

To be clear, DF Natsu did "blitz" Jellal, however the moment Jellal decided that the preservation of the tower was of no importance, he was in position to demolish DF Natsu (+ Erza) if not for a "convenient" mortal wound given prior to the fight.

I don't disagree with you. If you are giving ToH's Jellal the benefit of the doubt in terms of whether he'd have been capable of beating ToH DF Natsu, I think they were pretty much at similar levels. But that's just because Base Natsu was many leagues below him. Multiply these many leagues below x 3 and you get somewhere close to Jellal's level.

IMO just like his "win" with Laxus, I view DF Natsu's "win" against Jellal the same way. Having to have a character nerfed ever AFTER having a DF 3x multiplier? That's not a win IMO. Not even close. Can DF Natsu defeat Jellal now? Probably (hopefully). But again Jellal =/= Gildarts.

I agree that some wins are 'forced' and the character had the same level or slightly below his opponent. Many things happened so that a non DF Natsu beat Laxus, though. First of all, Laxus wasted a lot of MP using the lacrimas to destroy the city, fightning Mystgun and Erza and using Fairy Law. Secondly, he had Gajeel by his side. I still consider ToH Jellal slightly superior to that Laxus, but not by a large margin.

Jellal =/= Glidartz, but what Jellal and what Glidartz? Jellal has always been inferior to Glidartz. I've always thought of him as having a similar level to Laxus, slightly superior to Erza, but not reaching Makarov or Glidartz. Now, current Jellal should be above Tenrou Glidartz, but of course, if characters progress in a similar fashion, then Glidartz ought to currently be superior as he's always been.

And I reiterate that with Mard Geer's tanking of Natsu's attack. Just because Natsu felt 3x stronger (in pre-skip) doesn't necessarily imply he can even fight on par with those leagues above his base form. To me, FDKM (w/o Igneel's flames) is 2.5x and DF is 3x, which is pretty negligible. And if Gildarts is somehow still stronger than FDKM Natsu, I wouldn't see how a negligible boost would do anything other than burning natsu out faster in terms of magic supply.

Think of numbers. Base MG is a 2. Etherious MG is a 5. Base Natsu is a 1,75. DF Natsu is a 5,25. So, yeah, a 3x multiplier grants base Natsu the power to fight with enemies who are a few tiers above him.

To me, FDKM should be 1,5x or 2x at most. DF should be 3x. But agian, think of DF as an evolving mechanism. Dragonization after DF has been occurring and Natsu is closer and closer to becoming a dragon when he goes DF. His scales multiply and his body will partially dragonize by the time he uses it again, most likely. If that boosts that multiplier, I don't know, but it might.

I humbly don't believe Glidartz can win against FDKM Natsu. At least not the Glidartz we saw in Tenrou, and not even the one in Tartaros probably. It is true that, after all, Natsu's feat (that punch against Jacob) may outclass anything Glidartz has shown. I don't think he could tank that.

 

[The President]

Are you forgetting the fact that Gildarts can literally destroy all of Natsu spells? Or did you leave that out to make your argument towards Natsus side.

Destroy Natsus spells? Nah man, they are too big for him to destroy. Not to mention that disassembly wouldn't work as efficiently on fire as it does on a solid attack like Bluenotes black hole.