I would like to know why GMG Natsu > Makarov/GMG Jura... that would put GMG Natsu >= GMG Laxus.
Natsu would lose mid diff or less against either of those guys. Second Origin is equivalent to 3 months of FT training. It didn't boost them enough to outfight
Future rogue is way stronger than GMG Natsu. He had to use 'Atlas flame' flames which is a lot stronger than his own. And Rogue was able to keep up. Rogue basically fought on par with Atlas flame.
Just think of it like this Base natsu pushes base Base gildartz a Little
basically if both of them go all out for example DF natsu faces All out Gildartz
Let's say natsu's power powered up 3x while Gildartz powered up only2x
Even if natsu has a greater boost gildartz base form was at least 2 times stronger than natsu's base form
So base natsu=1 Gildartz base form= 2
base natsu(1) multiplied by 3(Dragon force)= 3
Base form gildartz 2(considering Gildartz base form is 2 times stronger than natsu''s base form)
multiplied by 2 considering gildartz power is at least two times stronger and han his base form
=4
therefore GILDARTZ(4) > NATSU(3)
Future rogue is way stronger than GMG Natsu. He had to use 'Atlas flame' flames which is a lot stronger than his own. And Rogue was able to keep up. Rogue basically fought on par with Atlas flame.
Well, it depends on opinion. Putting it that way implies that he's being intentionally increased power wise but most arguments are based on the point that silent chapter Gildarts is strong enough (especially with his magic) to take on spriggans. In addition, when considering the level of damage he did to the Mountain and Natsu while hardly being serious, reasonable speculation would apply that Gildarts being more serious can perform greater feats.
To elaborate, Natsu one shotted Bluenote who managed to keep up with Gildarts on Tenrou, but it's noteworthy that Natsu didn't do so in CQC. Also, considering that Gildarts was able to literally send Bluenote flying with the only named spell he used, it's does show that Tenrou Gildarts is able to pull off an overwhelming victory when he employs his magic. Majority of the Tenrou battle between Gildarts and Bluenote was CQC and that's where Bluenote was able to largely match Gildarts. Post TS Natsu never engaged in CQC against Bluenote, so I wouldn't really say he'd perform better than Gildarts did if he had done so. Natsu skipped right to the part where his magic straight way overwhelms Bluenote, thus making his victory a lot simpler and easier than Gildarts but like I said, imo, it's not really proof that (Base) Natsu far outclasses Gildarts. We've already seen that base Natsu CQC is still beneath Makarov
Note that despite Natsu charging, employing flame with his attacks and even teaming up with Lucy, he's barely able to push Jacob back a few meters each time but Makarov sent Jacob flying with a single punch. Admittedly, makarov used Titan but the point is that though Natsu's magic spells and FDKM are right up there in terms of strongest attacks Post TS, he doesn't match Makarov in pure strength and probably falls a bit short of some if it's simply CQC. Hades for example was able to toss Makarov around in Titan. Even when Natsu faced Bakel and decided to save strength for the Spriggans, we saw that he couldn't easily best Bakel in CQC. It took him a fair bit of effort and a serious face to send Bakel flying. I posted something similar in the Gildarts vs Wahl thread but I'd say Pre TS Natsu should roughly be the same level with the Spriggans underlings, but Gildarts easily sent Natsu flying with a causal punch in the silent chapter. I'd say it's reasonable to conclude that Gildarts > Natsu in CQC and that if Natsu had gone that route against Bluenote, it would've had a different outcome (albeit still Natsu's win but with more difficulty). I'd also say crash and his durability could allow him cope against FD Spells. We've seen that Lucy/Marin can undo Jacob's spell despite the colossal difference in MP. There wouldn't even be much of a difference (if any) so Crash/disassembly should have no problem working here. Seeing the scale with which Gildarts used crash in the silent chapter, he should be able to employ it on most of Natsu's Base FD spells.
I also won't say that Gildarts and Bluenote have the same durability. In that Tenrou exchange, it was when Gildarts lost his MP and thus was helpless that Bluenote dealt the most damage and one has to consider that Gildart was simply tanking that without a drop of MP to mitigate damage. Seeing as Gildarts could still bare hand Tatarus' Natsu's attacks and wasn't pushed back that much after Natsu's barrage all the while taking little to no damage, it shows that he can take a punch or two. This is all within reasonable speculation. The reasoning behind arguments that Natsu is far beyond Gildarts basically revolves around Bluenote, but it wouldn't do to ignore the entire context of the battle as highlighted above and when those are taken into consideration, it gives a different perspective.
Anyway, asides from the above, my own belief is that Gildarts is strong enough to face Spriggans and he has hax magic to back him up. He had a tough CQC fight with Bluenote, but that doesn't really make him = Bluenote in terms of overall ability and thus doesn't mean Natsu will one shot Gildarts or walk all over him.
To clarify though, reasonable speculation isn't a given to always be right, just like with any other point/debate, opinion always comes into play. Eg, using the Sema example I mentioned earlier, even though it should be stronger, the question is how much stronger? And that's a point where different opinions will feature in. Some might say the increase is negligible, others might say it'd be immensely stronger etc., then it'd be up to each one to debate and give reasons for their different views in order to convince others.
The fact that I've made these points doesn't automatically make them fact and they can (and will be) refuted and debated. The point is that, in this tournament, speculation that follows a logical point is allowed. What isn't allowed is saying for example 'Gildarts wins Natsu because each time Gildarts and Natsu clash, Natsu gets overwhelmed to the point of refusing to fight anymore, so Natsu will cower when Gildarts flexes his MP as usual'. That isn't reasonable speculation but baseless assumption.
Well I'd say the context of Erza's/Gildarts oneshots are the same.
Personally I wouldn't derive any portrayal or power level stuff from it.
Gildarts > Erza through combat feats. Gildarts beat Bluenote, even after his fight was interrupted by Azuma. Erza barely defeated Azuma, albeit both had to use the power of FT/Tenrou in their fight. And because Bluenote is much stronger than Azuma, Gildarts is therefore a lot stronger than Erza.
Jura pushed Laxus to very high difficulty. Against Jellal he defended everything, pushing Jellal to attempt Sema. He's comparable to both those guys at the GMG.
Honestly if Natsu > Makarov or Jura at the GMG, he's likely on Gildarts level. But he wasn't obviously, as seen in the silent chapter.
Well, it depends on opinion. Putting it that way implies that he's being intentionally increased power wise but most arguments are based on the point that silent chapter Gildarts is strong enough (especially with his magic) to take on spriggans. In addition, when considering the level of damage he did to the Mountain and Natsu while hardly being serious, reasonable speculation would apply that Gildarts being more serious can perform greater feats.
To elaborate, Natsu one shotted Bluenote who managed to keep up with Gildarts on Tenrou, but it's noteworthy that Natsu didn't do so in CQC. Also, considering that Gildarts was able to literally send Bluenote flying with the only named spell he used, it's does show that Tenrou Gildarts is able to pull off an overwhelming victory when he employs his magic. Majority of the Tenrou battle between Gildarts and Bluenote was CQC and that's where Bluenote was able to largely match Gildarts. Post TS Natsu never engaged in CQC against Bluenote, so I wouldn't really say he'd perform better than Gildarts did if he had done so. Natsu skipped right to the part where his magic straight way overwhelms Bluenote, thus making his victory a lot simpler and easier than Gildarts but like I said, imo, it's not really proof that (Base) Natsu far outclasses Gildarts. We've already seen that base Natsu CQC is still beneath Makarov
Note that despite Natsu charging, employing flame with his attacks and even teaming up with Lucy, he's barely able to push Jacob back a few meters each time but Makarov sent Jacob flying with a single punch. Admittedly, makarov used Titan but the point is that though Natsu's magic spells and FDKM are right up there in terms of strongest attacks Post TS, he doesn't match Makarov in pure strength and probably falls a bit short of some if it's simply CQC. Hades for example was able to toss Makarov around in Titan. Even when Natsu faced Bakel and decided to save strength for the Spriggans, we saw that he couldn't easily best Bakel in CQC. It took him a fair bit of effort and a serious face to send Bakel flying. I posted something similar in the Gildarts vs Wahl thread but I'd say Pre TS Natsu should roughly be the same level with the Spriggans underlings, but Gildarts easily sent Natsu flying with a causal punch in the silent chapter. I'd say it's reasonable to conclude that Gildarts > Natsu in CQC and that if Natsu had gone that route against Bluenote, it would've had a different outcome (albeit still Natsu's win but with more difficulty). I'd also say crash and his durability could allow him cope against FD Spells. We've seen that Lucy/Marin can undo Jacob's spell despite the colossal difference in MP. There wouldn't even be much of a difference (if any) so Crash/disassembly should have no problem working here. Seeing the scale with which Gildarts used crash in the silent chapter, he should be able to employ it on most of Natsu's Base FD spells.
I also won't say that Gildarts and Bluenote have the same durability. In that Tenrou exchange, it was when Gildarts lost his MP and thus was helpless that Bluenote dealt the most damage and one has to consider that Gildart was simply tanking that without a drop of MP to mitigate damage. Seeing as Gildarts could still bare hand Tatarus' Natsu's attacks and wasn't pushed back that much after Natsu's barrage all the while taking little to no damage, it shows that he can take a punch or two. This is all within reasonable speculation. The reasoning behind arguments that Natsu is far beyond Gildarts basically revolves around Bluenote, but it wouldn't do to ignore the entire context of the battle as highlighted above and when those are taken into consideration, it gives a different perspective.
Anyway, asides from the above, my own belief is that Gildarts is strong enough to face Spriggans and he has hax magic to back him up. He had a tough CQC fight with Bluenote, but that doesn't really make him = Bluenote in terms of overall ability and thus doesn't mean Natsu will one shot Gildarts or walk all over him.
To clarify though, reasonable speculation isn't a given to always be right, just like with any other point/debate, opinion always comes into play. Eg, using the Sema example I mentioned earlier, even though it should be stronger, the question is how much stronger? And that's a point where different opinions will feature in. Some might say the increase is negligible, others might say it'd be immensely stronger etc., then it'd be up to each one to debate and give reasons for their different views in order to convince others.
The fact that I've made these points doesn't automatically make them fact and they can (and will be) refuted and debated. The point is that, in this tournament, speculation that follows a logical point is allowed. What isn't allowed is saying for example 'Gildarts wins Natsu because each time Gildarts and Natsu clash, Natsu gets overwhelmed to the point of refusing to fight anymore, so Natsu will cower when Gildarts flexes his MP as usual'. That isn't reasonable speculation but baseless assumption.
Thanks for responding Holt. I guess i just disagree with the reasonable speculation. To me if you go down that road it's a slippery slope and tends to negate rule number 6 of the tournament, which reads: "Because the plot is moving forward and certain characters are being developed, they can only be considered as they have been "shown" (pic or text) capable of in the manga, except for the few characters that we have imposed a limit on." I understand that the silent chapter showed Gildarts destroying a mountain, but i think it's a bit iffy to ever judge an attack on size alone, though i do agree it was somewhat impressive i suppose. From what we saw Gildarts was just fighting him CQC, but i mean what you and others are essentially saying is that until the Tenrou Tree came back up, Gildarts was just really not trying at all, I don't buy that. Considering the circumstances Gildarts was going in imo, he looked furious and was using his Crash magic on the ground at the beginning of the fight. I guess what i am saying is that if you are saying reasonable speculation is that Gildarts be scaled to this level, when his last feat was Bluenote, then why can i not just say it's reasonably speculation that Gildarts and Bluenote were both using their magic against one another? I mean they had both taken damage the next time we saw them before the Tenrou tree fell, who's to say he was not using Crash magic, considering he used it at the beginning of the fight? This is why i would prefer to leave as much speculation out as possible in this tournament. Whether or not you think my example is as reasonable as saying Gildarts is on par with the Spriggans is to me irrelevant, because it's still speculation. I do also see where you are coming from in terms of saying that there are opinions in play, but to me saying Gildarts can fight someone(Natsu) who oneshotted his best feat(Bluenote) regardless of whether it was CQC or not is to me not reasonable speculation. The problem with having Gildarts in this tournament is that we just don't have a good idea of his power level, due to him not being around for almost the entire series. Therefore he should have either been left out from the tournament, or we should judge him on pure feats alone imo. This time skip has clearly showed that Natsu has grown leaps and bounds, and with FDKM i have a hard time seeing where anyone who thinks Gildarts can win this fight is coming from, from what we know at the moment.
Gajeel not activating his DF at will is completely irrelevant right now.
His DF running out only proves me point.
Bradman could not drag Gajeel down when he was in DF and only dragged him down when he reverted back to base, while Gajeel did kill Bradman because Bradman pretty much said if i'm dying I'm taking you with me.
Gajeel while in DF stomped Bradman and he only nearly killed Gajeel because he reverted back to base.
Gajeel not activating his DF at will is completely irrelevant right now.
His DF running out only proves me point.
Bradman could not drag Gajeel down when he was in DF and only dragged him down when he reverted back to base, while Gajeel did kill Bradman because Bradman pretty much said if i'm dying I'm taking you with me.
Gajeel while in DF stomped Bradman and he only nearly killed Gajeel because he reverted back to base.
While in that instance DF Gajeel did beat him, he wouldn't have had it been regular DF Gajeel. He was lucky that there was iron in the MBP's because had it been regular iron he's eaten (like a screw) he wouldn't have even been able to touch him. Bradman was screwed over by plot, because apparently eating MBP's means you can touch an intangible being.
While in that instance DF Gajeel did beat him, he wouldn't have had it been regular DF Gajeel. He was lucky that there was iron in the MBP's because had it been regular iron he's eaten (like a screw) he wouldn't have even been able to touch him. Bradman was screwed over by plot, because apparently eating MBP's means you can touch an intangible being.
Mainly because he technically isn't stronger than Bradman when he's in regular DF because he wouldn't be able to touch him and the MBP's would still be damaging him. I also wouldn't call it a stomp when he literally killed him.
Mainly because he technically isn't stronger than Bradman when he's in regular DF because he wouldn't be able to touch him and the MBP's would still be damaging him. I also wouldn't call it a stomp when he literally killed him.
We've only SEEN one version of Gajeel's DF which is the one he used against Bradman so no, until we see the regular version which can't hit him my point still stands. DF Gajeel>>Bradman.
We've only SEEN one version of Gajeel's DF which is the one he used against Bradman so no, until we see the regular version which can't hit him my point still stands. DF Gajeel>>Bradman.
Do we even have any evidence this was Gajeel's Dragon Force? It seemed like he just absorbed yet another element and entered a new mode with those MBPs. I didn't even feel like this was DF, especially since that was not stated. And since Gajeel said "contrary to the others i never went DF, but i dont care anymore" which in my eyes means that was not DF
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